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Part of Burrow taking sacks is more on Zac Taylor and Burrow himself. Burrow tries to be a hero on every pass attempt and hold the ball and Taylor never has his Burrow go under center
If you throw out of shotgun every time out , your QB is gonna get hit alot .

And that's the thing. If you have WR's like Chase and Higgins on your roster you can depend on them getting open downfield leaving your QB with a legitimate target. That gives you the luxury of keeping TE's in to help the OL block. When your #1 WR is Jeudy and #2 is and ? that's a luxury you don't have.

Granted, he's a third round rookie so things are going to be rougher at least for his first few games... but I didn't see the giant step back one would expect going from a vet to a rookie. I think our offense looks just as anemic as it did with Flacco in there... we've just traded holding the ball and taking sacks for dink-dunk.

The Browns are losing because of the offense. The offense is the way it is (mostly) because of durability/age of the Oline and lack of effective talent at WR. Part of this is the lack of draft picks and cap space... but not all of it. I've said it before, I think it makes perfect sense to hold the main person responsible for the Watson debacle, but all indications is that that is Haslam. Not sure how you hold a meddling owner accountable... I'm sincerely all ears on that one.

Oober i am not saying you are wrong but what are the “all indications” that Haslem is responsible for the Baker Watson debacle?

Let me preface what I'm going to say by acknowledging this is mostly me reading tea leaves. At no point has anyone in the org come out and say who was the driving force behind the Watson trade.

-He came out this off-season and called it a big swing and miss. IMO, him saying this (him acknowledging a mistake and him doing the talking) are significant.
-I also think the way the trade went down (Watson initially rebuffing us and then agreeing after the massive contract was dangled in front of him) means Haslam was very motivated to get the deal done.
-The clearest indicator (again, IMO) is the fact that KS and AB still have their jobs. I think Haslam has demonstrated that he was zero qualms firing people who he feels aren't getting it done and starting fresh. Most (if not all) of the issues with the Browns can be tied back, directly or indirectly, to the Watson trade (lack of draft picks and salary cap). If anyone but Haslam were responsible for the main root cause of our issues, I feel Haslam would have delivered us a scapegoat by now.

Feel free to poke holes... this is 80% conjecture when it comes down to it. I highly doubt we'll get the whole story until long after the fact.

Oober, I think everyone who has tried to describe how it went down is engaging in conjecture. I don’t think yours is any less possibly true than anyone elses. A couple of my thoughts.

First, Berry and stefanski had no part in bringing Baker to the Browns. I’m sure Stefanski considered him immature and high maintenance. I don’t want to go all conspiracy theory on you but I believe he kept running an injured Baker out there when he clearly could not perform, and put that rookie tackle one on one with JJ Watt the last game , allowing Watt to destroy Baker on multiple sacks, was to destroy Bakers credibility with the fans and with Haslem.

Berry and Stefanski could then go to Haslem and say we need to cut ties with Baker and, btw, there is a really good qb in Houston wanting out. It was what his “football guys” wanted so Haslem signed off on going for him. Him being willing to up the ante to Watson is a reflection of him trying to give his guys what they wanted. I think he knew it was an onerous, burdensome contract but that was what it took to get them their guy.

I find the idea that Haslem pushed Watson on the unwilling football guy harder to believe. Say what you will but Haslam is not a stupid man. He got burned badly on the Manziel fiasco. That old expression, once burned twice shy applies here. I just don’t think he would do it again.

Your point about them still being here is interesting. Early on Jimmie got grief for being too quick on the trigger. I think he is trying to overcome that.

I agree with you that dumping Baker and signing Watson is the root of dang near all our problems. When you look at a few years with no qb, an offensive roster devoid of talent, no quality free agents brought in, the loss of 3 #1’setc. We are in a hole and the guys who put us there are still running the show. I hope Jimmie shows them the door at end of season.

Well you know that other old saying, two things everyone has, an opinion and a _______!.

I hope you are having a great day!!

Sometimes what we "think and feel" doesn't turn out to be true........

I think we all knew he was injured and should not have been out there. Is there something new there??

Yes, and that stubbornness is what precipitated the chain of events that has put us in the situation we're in now. He should have been told we admire your moxie and dedication to the team, but you need to get the shoulder fixed and be well for next year. Playing hurt helped no one especially the team.

Stefanski was supposed to be the adult in the room . He is the head coach and he could see Baker was hurt. He could have set him down but chose not to do so.

Years ago on espn Mike and Mike was a show on radio and tv. Mike greenburg and Mike Golic. Greenie asked Golic if he ever had a time when the medical team said it was ok to play but he told the coach he was unable to get out there. His answer, never. He said if medical team cleared him he was playing. He said that was true of virtually every nfl player.

Baker was the same. Medical team cleared him, presumably because they thought he could not damage it any further and so it was, yes, I can go.

Baker did not say it directly but indirectly he was saying the team needed to shut me down, not listen to an immature player who does not want to sit down.

Stefanski should have been a strong coach and made that call. Even to the untrained eye it was clear Baker could not perform at the level needed. He should have been shutdown, evaluated by a surgeon and had surgery if indicated.

What must be new to you is that it wasn't some Stefanski conspiracy theory. Baker's own words say it was due to his stubbornness.


So according to what you "feel" happened that part should be news to you.

Now if you would like to find fault with Stefanski for not forcing Baker to sit that's a different matter all together. But Baker himself said the reason "he kept running out there" was due to his own stubbornness. Not that Stefanski kept running him out there.

When I talk about Baker vs Watson as it applies to where the Browns are now and what they need to do, I always try to do so WITHOUT the benefit of hindsight. I'm talking about the OBJ Sr video, the "yes he's been injured but doesn't have a ton of good tape out there pre-injury" argument, etc to remind myself that Baker's time here was tumultuous with a LOT of uncertainty on the future.... and a good chunk of that was because of Baker. I get the feeling that people want to make it seem like we intentionally tossed an MVP-level QB out the door because... reasons. That was NOT the general situation at the time it was going down. Similarly, the Watson deal was supposed to solve all of our offensive issues.... nobody had Watson pegged to regress as far as he did (on the field). I was as involved in those threads as anyone, and NOBODY was saying anything like he'd be statistically worse than Kizer while he was starting.
I do think Baker is a 'meh' scheme fit for the offense Stefanski wants to run... but it's always going to be a black mark on Stefanski that he wasn't able to get the best out of Baker. I think him trotting Baker out there was weakness on his part in terms of handling his players. He doesn't seem very willing to keep strong personalities in line.
I think it was primarily Haslam that had us respond to Watson with the contract. Berry may have started the interest, but to me that contract smells like Haslam, not Berry.


I do appreciate the convo. I know I sound like a KS apologist, but really I just hate the FO reboot and the roster turnover that inevitably follows. I also like the idea of KS's offense. I do hope we are looking at offensive coaching staff changes... a new WR coach and potentially Oline coach as well as someone who'd call offensive plays.

You know I was never a Baker fan.I can say he is playing really good football right now. Will he ever win a Super Bowl? We shall see. I still have my doubts. With all that said the Browns have been a dysfunctional operation for years. That dysfunction did not help a young man grow up or mature. Stefanski, Berry, Haslam, and entire front office own the dysfunction. Baker's immaturity while in Cleveland is still his own but the dysfunction around him did not help.

I watch the Ultimate Cleveland Sports Show daily and Jason Lloyd National beat writer for the Browns on the Atlantic says he does not want to see Stefanski fired because he manages the dysfunction in Berea better than any coach has during his time covering the Browns. I don't think Stefanski's offense is very good right now and his performance working with QB's is not great either working with the Browns. It is sad that a member of the media sees dysfunction in Berea. That has to change. Keeping a coach because he manages that dysfunction better than everyone else is an indictment on the entire organization.

Give it a break will you. Your constant bashing of Mayfield for playing injured is no different than ANY OTHER NFL player trying to play injured. Even if your weakness as a HC allows you to meet the injured players demand for a game or two, any self-respecting HC would have pulled the player due to his significant drop in performance. Any HC who continually runs an injured player out there and putting his TEAM at a significant disadvantage does not deserve the HC position. In Mayfield's first 2 games of 2021, he completed 81.6% of his passes picking up where he was in 2020. The next 12 games playing injured he completed only 56.7% of his passes. Where the hell was Stefanski? Fans knew, analysts knew, and his teammates knew but not Stefanski? Even Case Keenum stated how much he respected Mayfield because he watched him cringe in pain with every throw. Where the hell was Stefanski?

As someone stated above, who's the adult in the room? Was Stefanski the HC or Mayfield? IMHO, this clearly shows Stefanski didn't like Mayfield. By showing performing poorly, it allowed him to convince Berry that they needed to go in a different direction. Enter Watson and Berry and Stefanski convinced Haslam that Watson was a good move for the team. When the first offer failed, Haslam entered and made sure they got the player they coveted and bye bye Mayfield. Stefanski isn't a HC, he's a vindicated person who was the start and ultimate end to this team's early success under him. The sooner him and Berry are gone, the better!

j/c

Who really is in charge in Browns Circustown? I've read a hundred times that the org runs via collaboration and consensus. Which is BS. When no one / everyone is in charge...no one is accountable. When no one is in charge OR accountable, who identifies the issues and runs/manages/monitors the projects to get it fixed? Whose "culture" is it that we are trying to implement?

Who is/are the leader(s) of this team? That list usually includes the QB (not for us again) or perhaps the best-highest-paid player on the team (not for our future HOF DE Snowflake).

It seems to me that the 'plan' to right the ship is to just keep plugging away and keep doing what we've been doing all along.

So now you call quoting Baker as bashing him? So now Baker's own words are my fault?

No wonder you see things the way you do. As I said....................


Pay better attention next time.

It's hilarious. I've been labeled a Baker Boy in the past. Now I bash Mayfield?

Who decides who plays? Baker playing injured was 100% on KS...100%. Whether Baker was immature, an asshat or a jackwagon makes no difference. It was KS' call.

And that's fine. But it wasn't some faux conspiracy to maker Baker look bad as I replied to.

The medical staff cleared Baker to play. I agree that at some point during all of that Stefanski should have put his foot down and sat Baker. Nowhere have I said otherwise. It seems that you missed that this, and only this is what I took issue with.....


Context has meaning.

No. It is your fault that you are trying to foist the idiocy that baker mayfield was on the field because baker mayfield wanted to be on the field. He wasn’t. He was there because stefanski wanted him there. He could have set him down any time he wanted . He didn’t . He let him keep playing even though he was dramatically reduced functionally..

So it was on stefanski, not baker. To argue otherwise is to suggest our coach is a figurehead, not a coach.
So you keep right on arguing that Baker had the final decision to play or not. You will just continue to look silly.

As far as why he did that , I have my opinion, others have different opinions. We don’t know for sure and we never will.

Baker Mayfield himself stated he was being stubborn by insisting to play. I suppose if you think Mayfield is lying you have a point. Yes, Stefanski could have made the call to sit him. That part of it is on Stefanski.

But there are two facts you can't change no matter how hard you try. The medical staff cleared Baker to play and Baker in his own words said he was being stubborn about playing despite his injury. As much as you keep insisting he was out there because Stefanski wanted him out there, Baker insisted he be out there and wanted to be out there too too.

Nowhere did I say Baker had the final say. That's just something you made up in your own mind. Here is where you went off the rails............


Don't try to change the narrative now. There's a difference in an opinion and a conspiracy theory.

Pit, replying to you and keithfromxenia.

Sorry I only copied your part of the conversation

The Baker playing injured and the Stefanski letting him play thing.

Baker was still young as a QB. Three years and two games into the 2021 season when he got injured.

Stefanski had one season and two games into the 2021 season.

It really appears that both Baker and Stefanski were young into their careers and both relying on each other to make each other successful.

Stefanski had Keenum and Mullins to fall back on. Baker had a good 2020 season.

It was just another one of those Browns things.

And again. Here is the Gabriel and Sanders situation that Kevin has to deal with.

The Browns really need to get their butts to Brookpark

LOL !!

Pit, replying to you and keithfromxenia.

Sorry I only copied your part of the conversation

The Baker playing injured and the Stefanski letting him play thing.

Baker was still young as a QB. Three years and two games into the 2021 season when he got injured.

Stefanski had one season and two games into the 2021 season.

It really appears that both Baker and Stefanski were young into their careers and both relying on each other to make each other successful.

Stefanski had Keenum and Mullins to fall back on. Baker had a good 2020 season.

It was just another one of those Browns things.

And again. Here is the Gabriel and Sanders situation that Kevin has to deal with.

Hopefully all this gets worked out