DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Browns Losing Culture

Well - the salary cap isn't an issue thankfully. I've been told that many, many, many times. In fact when I have been in conversations about it before some posters thought it was funny. Berry is a cap guru and smarter than the other NFL GM's - he'll have a plan I am sure. 6 years to build the worst roster in the NFL - but he had a good draft this year so, things are turning around.

GTFOH

Come on now let's be realistic here. Solutions are never actually given. Just the "concept of a plan". Complaints are many and answers are nonexistent.

I'm not the one on here claiming everyone needs to be fired and acting like I have the answers to every problem confronting this team. I leave that to self appointed experts like yourself. Once again when push comes to shove you just threw out generalities while refusing to give specifics or name names.

I mean "there are 31 other NFL franchises and all have understudies working under NFL GMs. The talent pool is currently deep" is just a bunch of gibberish. So are you suggesting all 31 of those "understudies" makes a deep talent pool? You don't at least wish to exclude those "understudies" in FO's of teams that don't even make the playoffs?

How many NFL GM's do you think are out there training the people who work beneath them how to do their jobs anyway? After all that is what it means to be an understudy.

So you still gave no answer to the questions. No surprise there. The Patriots also drafted a good QB. Do you think Vrabel would have that same record with these QB's, these WR's and this OL?

It's easy to claim a HC wins "just because he's good" when the big picture is so much deeper. You can look at all the bad teams across the NFL to see finding these "good people" isn't as easy as you make it sound.

You went from "there are 31 other NFL franchises and all have understudies working under NFL GMs" to "look I have one example of it". Impossible? No it's not. Highly unlikely? Yes it is.

So let mee get this straight. The Browns handed Berry and Stefanski a playoff capable team for their 1st year. Since that first year, the next 5 plus years, those two have delivered a 31-77 record at a .402 record percentage inclusive with only 1 winning season after being handed a playoff caliber team. Of the seven players drafted in Berry's first draft (2020), only Delpit remains with the team. Thus, the beginning of the total dismantling of the team handed to them.

Now some want to blame this all on Berry or Haslam. However, remember that Stefanski was hired first and according to Haslam, Berry was hired because he could collaborate with Stefanski. IMHO, trying to give Stefanski a bye in this whole mess is just wishful wishing. Haslam has admitted to the hiring thought process, I highly doubt any of those major moves were made without significant Stefanski input. Secondly, even if Haslam is responsible for the ultimate package for Watson, I don't believe that he offered that contract without Berry's input on whether the Browns could manage the Cap hit or not. I think it's foolish to think that Haslam offered a contract without the ok that Berry could still manage the contract and cap. Besides, Haslam owns the team so there is no repercussion for him on the deal so get over it. Berry and to a lesser point Stefanski (due to their collaboration setup) will shoulder the eventual ramifications.

Which brings me back to the original point, Berry and Stefanski were handed a playoff capable team that they have destroyed in the last 5 plus years. Now we have people campaigning for these two to collaborate in another draft after the last 5 plus years of failure. That's called a losing culture, just keep doing the same thing and eventually you'll get it right, LMAO!

Didn't you get this straight 320 posts ago??

Asking for a friend.

Can you now explain what who got hired first has to do with anything? Haslam hired both of them. He hired each one to do a different job and handle the responsibility of the job he hired them to do. One coaches the roster while the other one controls the salary cap which helps determine which FA's they can afford to sign. He uses input from the analytics department and scouting department to hep set the draft board. Trying to blur the lines changes none of that.

It's rather odd how you openly admit this was all on Haslam to begin with and then turn around and try to present a different argument............

"according to Haslam, Berry was hired because he could collaborate with Stefanski." "Haslam has admitted to the hiring thought process"

So you openly admit that Haslam is the one who thought they could collaborate on everything and that's the process he used in making the hires. Haslam also said he listened to input for everyone and then made the decisions. But now you think the makeup of the roster is on Stefnaski?

In you world why would they need an analytics department and scouting department if Stefanski was already doing what they're being paid millions upon millions of dollars to do?

Your math isn't mathing.

Allow me to pose something to you. Since you seem to think that Stefanski helps in some role as some type of assistant GM who has a say in everything because "everything" is collaborative, do you also think that Berry is involved in the HC'ing decisions as well? I mean do you also think Berry is helping Stefanski coach the team? Maybe has a say in the game plans, the play calling duties?

And if not, why? Why would it only apply to Stefanski playing a role in the decisions of a GM and the GM having no say in the coaching part? Either everything in both directions are collaborative or they're not. Life isn't a one way street you can walk down only one direction without paying attention to oncoming traffic.

Yeah, but .......

The coach has certain types of players that fir his scheme. You don't draft zone blocking linemen for man blocking schemes. (for example) If the scheme calls for a lot of passes to the RB, you need to draft one who is a good receiver. (and so on)

It is collaborative, but within limits. The coach lets the GM know what kind of players fit, and what kind do not ... and the GM makes the determination as to who fits these parameters and who does not, since he has all of the work and info done for the draft and free agency.

I certainly think the HC tells the FO the "type of players" they need to fit their scheme. I think that's a very reasonable conclusion to reach.

Fate, you could not pay me enough money to get me to trust the guys who built our qb room the past 4 years or so to build our new qb room that will carry us forward the next five years.

It would be like asking the doctor who botched your first surgery to do your second surgery.

You will trust them... and you will trust them for free!

I agree with your post but tell me this:

How many GM's and/or HC's survived failing with two top 12 first round picks in 6 seasons? In addition, name me an owner that has ever allowed a GM or HC to get a shot at another 1st round pick QB after two failures with 1st round QB's? Excuses are like aholes, everyone has one!

Good example would be, I believe it was Mangini, who came out blatantly and said the Browns would be looking to draft/sign/trade for players tough enough to whip the Steelers. Some of that took place, but Mangini wasn't allowed to see it through. I think this needs to be weighed. This committee product of a roster doesn't match our division, at least the same lame game Ski trots out week after week Being tough enough mentally and physically to win weekly is not in this roster's culture. I think Mangini other coaches were on the right track. KS is the factvortr consistently present who moves the bar lower. Do something different Changing 1st down calls might help.

I agree with you about Mangini and I said the same thing at the time. He had us on the right track. I don’t know how far he was going to take us but we had a tough and disciplined team that played hard for him. He probably hasn’t gotten another coaching job because of the incident with Belichick but his players played hard for him and respected him.

Maybe, just maybe it was the owner himself that demanded they get Watson and he realizes none of that was their fault. That may explain why he doesn't hold them responsible for that entire debacle the current QB situation and the loss of those first round draft picks. Maybe, just maybe Haslam agreed that the it would be better not to reach for a QB last year and wait for this years draft.

When it comes to running an NFL franchise, there’s no such thing as a decision made in a vacuum. Every call-whether it’s a blockbuster trade, a coaching hire, or a quarterback depth chart-is made at the intersection of results and nuance. And right now, for the Cleveland Browns, owner Jimmy Haslam is standing at that crossroads.

The Browns’ leadership structure isn’t your typical NFL hierarchy. General Manager Andrew Berry and Head Coach Kevin Stefanski both report directly to Haslam.

Stefanski was hired first and even played a role in Berry’s hiring, but neither holds sway over the other. It’s a shared power model, and with the team struggling, that model is being tested.

Cleveland is now 42-49 under the Berry-Stefanski regime. Since the beginning of the 2024 season, they’ve gone just 5-19.

That’s the hard truth. But the context around those numbers-especially the fallout from the Deshaun Watson trade-adds layers to the conversation.

Haslam has acknowledged that deal hasn’t worked out, and he’s done so more than once.

The offensive side of the ball has been a sore spot all season, and it’s left Stefanski squarely in the crosshairs of frustrated fans and vocal media. Meanwhile, Berry’s 2025 rookie class has shown serious promise, which only sharpens the focus on the coaching staff. Rookie QB Dillon Gabriel has had his struggles, and with Shedeur Sanders waiting in the wings, the noise around the quarterback room has only grown louder-even if that buzz isn’t necessarily coming from inside the building.

In a recent conversation with The Athletic, Haslam offered a public show of support for Stefanski. Speaking candidly about the Watson trade, he didn’t sugarcoat the impact: “A big trade we made didn’t work out, and you know, we’re all suffering from that.

He didn’t have to. The Browns’ record speaks for itself, and the pressure to turn things around isn’t going anywhere.

https://fanrecap.com/cleveland-brow...z7lcL7z1AyQHw_aem_ojbIG8WaIr-9oiZ56ADKZw

I'll ask you again since you ignored it the first time, since you think Stefanksi has a say in the GM duties, do you also think Berry has a say in coaching duties? After all you claim some PR statement by this group means something and that everything is agreed upon by consensus. Why would you think that Stefnaski has a say in what would normally be the call of a GM if you don't think the GM has a say in what would normally be considered a HC's duties? Life isn't a one way street.

Other than Judkins, what major investment did they make in the 2025 draft on the O? Both of the first two picks in last years draft were on D. The third pick was Judkins.

1st off Give the AB and Kevin till the end of 2026.
2nd Turn over play calling to Rees
3. They have been working HARD on the 2026 draft already, they HAVE to nail it again like they did this year.
4. Shore up LT, RT, LG, WR, WR, WR, RB and backup CB's
5. QB ???? I will get back with you after we have another 9 games to review.

Your question is a trick question. First, the so-called PR statement was made by multiple outlets not just one. Second, you continue to apply GM and HC duties to a normal hierarchy when it's been reported numerous times that Berry and Stefanski both report directly to Haslam and they work as a cohesive body - quite different from a normal NFL team hierarchy.

Third, do you think for a moment that Stefanski had the power or for that fact the balls to bench Flacco in favor of a rookie on his own? Do you think for moment that Berry was the sole decision maker on trading Flacco and having only 2 rookies with zero NFL game experience to lead the team going forward? Why is Haslam quoted as describing the trade as a "big swing and miss" in late March 2025. He acknowledged that the organization thought they had secured their franchise quarterback but were wrong. He took accountability, stating the decision was an "entire organization decision" and that he and Dee Haslam should be held responsible.

Haslam took responsibility because he had the final say on the trade but to think that Berry and Stefanski were not a part of the process is just foolish thinking. Even Haslam admits that it was an "entire organizational" decision which obviously includes Berry and Stefanski.

As far as the 2025 draft goes, you are correct that the Browns collaborated team addressed the defense with the first 2 picks in the draft. Both picks were of an immediate need. What you didn't elaborate on was the next 5 picks were all on the offensive side of the ball. The other point not made was the collaborated team effort in trading for a former 1st round QB in Pickett and signed former 1st round pick Joe Flacco as a FA. By the way, if we're keeping track, that's 4 first round QB's that Stefanski has failed to get consistant Top 10 play from in 6 years. Do we reallyy want to give him another 1st round pick?

I think once the roster/cap is mostly free from the Watson debacle, Berry and KS are on a VERY short leash. I think they get a reprieve until they can start making the moves needed to correct the offensive side of the roster, but then should be on the hook to start delivering immediate results/improvement. I think it should be significant as well.

If we were as incapable of acquiring talent as many believe, the defense wouldn't be what it is today. Also, this last draft, by most/all measures, is Berry's strongest and allows us to be at least somewhat hopeful about what he can do with the added draft ammo. That said, he's gotta knock it out of the park.

With KS, I am trying to give him the benefit of the doubt... playcalling and scheme aren't going to look good when execution isn't there (and it isn't by most measures). I am starting to soften on my anti-HC-change stance, as we are staring down the barrel of a pretty comprehensive roster overhaul on the offensive side anyway. If we were entertaining the notion of changing offensive schemes, now would prolly be the time to do it. My other issue with this (as is usually the case) is that firing a coach is the easy part.... if we don't have a solid candidate in mind then it's MUCH easier to get worse at the HC position instead of better. If there's a slam-dunk guy out that comes available then I could see myself warming to a change. An example would be Mike Tomlin (I know that's probably not happening but there seems to be rumbling each year of Steelers org getting antsy about them not getting back to the next level.... if he were to be available then that would be a slam-dunk upgrade). I don't quite feel as confident about Schwartz getting a promotion, but that could be viable if KS loses the locker room.

If the watson deal was pushed by Halslam why do you think he hasn't fired this HC and FO? So you're still convinced by a PR statement that everyone agrees on every move the Browns make? Several outlets reported on the exact same thing. What Haslsm said in his statement. To believe that everyone agrees on every move is a foolish belief.

I see you dodged the question so I'll ask you again..... Since you think Stefanksi has a say in the GM duties, do you also think Berry has a say in coaching duties? After all you claim some PR statement by this group means something and that everything is agreed upon by consensus. Why would you think that Stefnaski has a say in what would normally be the call of a GM if you don't think the GM has a say in what would normally be considered a HC's duties? Life isn't a one way street.

So you're saying that the later second round pick and all of the later draft picks, you know, the ones where the odds of success are not good were spent on the O? Yes, they were. Do you know the odds of success of draft picks from rounds 3-7?

3rd round - about 16%.

4th round - about 8%.

5th round - about 4-5%.

6th round - about 2%.

7th round - about 1-2%.

https://247sports.com/nfl/cleveland...yer-in-the-nfl-by-draft-round-211678773/

Thanks.

The only one who can't seem to get the word analytics out of their posts is you. Maybe it's time you admit your obsession with it.

Again, you spin the topic and only read what you want to read. What part didn't you understand about it not being Stefanski's opinion alone to bench Flacco? What part didn't you understand bout trading Flacco and leaving Stefanski with nothing but rookies? You surely can't be serious if you believe Berry made that decision without collaborating with Stefanski and Haslam?

Of course you don't want them near the draft. (Thanks for not making that a fairy tale and say you did)

Entire draft performance

https://www.clevelandbrowns.com/team/history/draft-history/2020s

What it's time for you to admit is that you have been on some kind of personal vendetta against the Browns front office since Depo was hired. You make up stories, and repeat rumors. NOW if you EVER want to point out where once in the entire time I have posted on these boards when I ever said ( I love analytics, or even that I like analytics) or where I ever claimed to be smarter than anybody in our front office, like you do all the time.

BTW I'm still waiting for that name of WHO you claimed the Browns should hire. You know that GREAT "football " guy with experience that you said we should hire, but you stuttered and didn't list

Here's a few that should be considered - in no particular order.

Lions assistant GM Ray Agnew: Brad Holmes’s right-hand man has a vast, and diverse, volume of experiences—as a player, a player-development guy, a scout and now an executive—and brings an Ozzie Newsome-type presence as a leader. His ability to judge and evaluate players on a personal level is something that’s been highlighted by everyone who’s been around him too, and it’s pretty obvious to see in the job that the Lions have done in bringing in the right kinds of people the last three years.

Chiefs assistant GM Mike Borgonzi: This is one name, like Adam Peters last year, that seems due, if not overdue, to run his own show. Borgonzi and GM Brett Veach came up alongside each other as young execs in Kansas City and there isn’t a decision the latter makes without the former’s involvement. Borgonzi also has a background working in the New England system, having broken into scouting under Pioli. And he’s helped to build Kansas City’s player development machine—which has allowed the team to stay balanced as the cost of the Chiefs’ cornerstones has risen. I’d be surprised if every team with an opening didn’t take a look at him.


Eagles assistant GM Alec Halaby: Halaby’s helped build perhaps the NFL’s best roster and has been integral for GM Howie Roseman in marrying traditional player evaluation to analytics within the team’s scouting department. Before graduating into a VP role, overseeing the team’s operations side, Halaby worked alongside Roseman, learning the scouting side as he went. With a Harvard education, and a deep background in analytics, he’s going to appeal to certain owners looking for a non-traditional hire. Halaby would be that more than the hybrid candidates that we’ve seen rise lately.


Buccaneers assistant GM John Spytek: This is another guy right on the cusp. The Bucs are one of four franchises in the cap era to win three straight division titles following a Super Bowl title, and now they can make it four straight. Along the way, Jason Licht, Spytek, Greenberg and a deep staff (Mike Biehl and Rob McCartney are rising stars within it) have reset the cap, and turned one of the oldest rosters in the league into one of the youngest, without falling off—and with multiple head coaches and quarterbacks at the helm. Spytek has interviewed with the Raiders, Vikings and Steelers. The ex-Michigan linebacker also has the unique distinction of getting to the Super Bowl with three teams (Bucs, Broncos, Eagles).


Jon-Eric Sullivan: Green Bay Packers VP of Player Personnel A long-time Packers executive with a strong scouting background in an organization known for its drafting prowess.


George Kokinis, Baltimore Ravens vice president of player personnel. The Ravens is one of the most respected franchises in football, and Kokinis has an important scouting role.

Mike Greenberg, Tampa Bay Buccaneers assistant GM. Jason Licht has been one of the most stable GMs in football, and Greenberg has been with the Bucs for almost two full decades.

Once again you weave a story about how so much had been spent on the O in the draft when facts show that those draft picks have very little chance of success in those rounds. Now you decide to pivot and claim I'm the one who only sees what I want to see? That's rich.

If by collaborating you mean they told Stefanski, "Here's the plan and here's what we're going to do" I agree with you. This isn't some fantasy land where they're all sitting around the campfire singing Kumbaya on every decision.

You got something right. DEPO is his record 0-0.

“When something goes wrong, who takes responsibility?” he said. “Their answer: ‘Well, that’s what the data told us.’ What a crock. That’s what got ‘em 1-31.”

OR the Browns analytics boys could claim that they have no record..right GM..?

I guess this fits as well here as anywhere.

The most recent chicanery from the interwebs...

Didn't you hear Mac Depo is really The team owner Jimmy is just a front man playing the role of the team owner. Depo's evil plan is working. He is the devil I tell ya the devil.

[img]https://www.freepik.com/free-photos-vectors/devil-face[/img]