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A few players will get resigned pushing their dead cap hit down the road further. Only way next year's team is good is if the Browns get lucky and find a franchise QB. Find the next Burrow and things turn around quickly. Miss and the talent level will be young 2027 with main nucleolus being 1st and 2nd year players.

I agree with your post here, I just have my doubts that this upcoming draft is going to give us our diamond-in-the-rough QB. Plus, we probably won't have the #1 pick.

That's like saying if you give a chef rotten vegetables to cook with he is equally at fault for the soup being bad.

"Do we really think that the owner, pressured by the fans and the media will accept three losing seasons in a row without making changes?"

Depends. Depends on the deal made.

What I mean by that is if Haslam said to Berry and KS, GET me Watson, no matter the cost... If Berry and KS said we like Mayfield..... Haslam maybe said, don't care, get watson, if it doesn't work out, I'll keep you both on so you can fix it.


Yeah, that ain't real.... Or is it!

I don't blame Stefanski for the talent on the roster. You'll have to quote me where I said that, or that's you simply trying to frame the discussion. I said Stefanski is an average at best - but in reality a below average HC. My opinion of Stefanski has nothing to do with him controling the talent on the roster.

That isn't an accusation of you saying anything. It's me saying if that is your contentions were as I outlined I would agree with you. That also isn't framing the discussion. I simply gave my own parameters it would take for me to agree with you.

As I have said before, I don't blame the chef for the soup being terrible when his boss provided him with rotten vegetables to make it with. He had his team make the playoffs with Baker and with Flacco after he was pulled off the couch. For me that isn't the sign of a terrible HC.

We simply disagree on what the actual problem is here. Maybe I'm at fault for wording it in a way that caused the confusion. If so my apology.

I think Berry has decimated the roster. I think he needs to go.

I think Stefanski is a below average HC. I think he needs to go.

Neither opinion is based on the microcosm of this season's 9 games. It is based on their complete time in their positions at CLE.

While you say you aren't framing the discussion - it feels like you are, because you try to make the conversation about KS as HC about the lack of talent on the team this year. Berry can be a bad HC and the team can lack talent -AND Strefanski can be a below average HC. Both things can be true at the same time.

They can be true at the same time but we just disagree that they are. I'm not basing it on nine games either. I'm basing it on how he made the playoffs the last time on marginal talent at best. With a QB on his couch that nobody else even wanted. I don't for a moment believe he suddenly forgot how to do that. I think he went from taking marginal talent to the playoffs to not being able to win with a putrid roster. I understand your POV I simply disagree with it.

And yes, I think a putrid roster is a direct correlation to a bad product on the field. I think him making the playoffs with Flacco at QB is evidence of that. This OL and group of WR's made Flacco look like total crap too.

As I stated, I get where you're coming from I just disagree with you.

j/c:

Some of you guys are going to be really pissed when neither Berry or Stefanski go anywhere.

I'll be pissed if we continue to be one of the worst teams in the NFL. I'll be happy when we start competing every year.... I don't care whose in place at the FO. I do have a opinion that we won't win under Berry and KS. It's not personal.

I saw that snippet where Orlovsky was playing up Stefanski to NY.

I thought it was funny how Orlovsky said he'd be a great fit... and then described a coach that was the polar opposite of KS. I'm not even talking ish on Stefanski... I mean DO described a coach whose fundamental style was the opposite (words like 'disciplinarian', 'tough', 'Parcells-like').

If the Browns are as bad as some indicated, what experienced head coach and GM will take the job? If it's another rookie HC and GM, won't they need a year or two to learn the job? Isn't that what Stefanski and Berry had to do the first two years? People point out that Berry can't draft players. It appears he has improved over time, even when we did not have first- and second-round picks.

I get that some fans are upset Mayfield was released. Until this regime is gone, they won't be satisfied.

It is obvious, at least in my opinion, that the offense has an aging OL and young playmakers in search of a quarterback. The Browns could already have replacements for Bitonio, Teller, and Pocic in Jenkins, Zinter, and Wypler. If they move Dawand Jones back to RT, does that improve the right tackle position? They already added Cam Robinson, a backup left tackle. Berry could sign a couple of free agent linemen if Jenkins, Zinter, and Wypler are not the answer. The guard and center positions are not costly positions.

Assuming the Browns are competing for the first three draft positions to get a rookie quarterback. Ideally, you want a left tackle or offensive lineman with the Jacksonville pick, but you want the best player available.

Lastly, this offense needs a receiver. Without knowing the strengths of your future quarterback, how do you know what type of receiver is required? Would it be smart to invest in talent that complements your quarterback's strengths?

With all that said, what does hiring a new head coach and/or GM bring to the table Berry and Stefanski cannot? To me, replacing one or both is making a change for the sake of making a change. If not, bringing in new means you are ready to flip the roster, because a new scheme and players are needed. Investing in a new roster will take a few years. That does not make much sense when you have a young top-five defense. If all that is needed is a few offensive players, why is a whole roster flip required?

I agree with your points Bugs. I think we should keep AB and KS too. I don't believe they are responsible for the DW catastrophe. If we ax them at the end of the season it could put us back even farther because most likely anyone we hire will be a GM and a HC for the first time which will take a while for them to learn and us to become competitive. Stay the course even though it may not be the popular thing to do but this time they have to get our future QB.

The Browns is one of the worst sport organizations when it comes to external communication, PR strategy and leadership that I have ever seen.
The leadership structure looks blurry despite on paper they all have specific titles and well designed working fields.

Andrew Berry is suddenly absent when the circumstances warrant that he at least should take some responsibility and help his HC and clear the air about some of the strange decisions.
Of course he disappears. The roster has more holes than a Switzerland cheese but the highest ranked employee takes zero public responsibility when needed most.

The lack of leadership can’t be more obvious than that.

Then we have the owners.
Whenever they open their mouth things get even more confusing regarding who’s accountable or not. It’s swings and misses and millions is floating out, drafts picks fly away like confetti but the results are worse than ever. You know Jimmy, the core business of your franchise. They take all the blame but at the same time point out that it was an organization decision where all was on board.

Did you self understand your own explanation Jimmy? I didn’t.

Finally Kevin “we have to do better “ Stefanski.
When Kevin?

When will you do better?
When will you try to win games?
When will you change the underperforming undersized quarterback that can’t throw longer than 5 yards?
When will you hold your underperforming and undisciplined players accountable?
When will you hold yourself accountable Kevin?

Do you understand your own word sallad?

Gruden available?

Not for nothing but Depo kinda made it sound like important decisions are made by committee. Might that be the problem?

https://bleacherreport.com/articles...haun-watson-explains-taking-rockies-role

We're 6 years into this Stefanski/Berry debacle. Just look at this product on the field. Sure the Watson trade played a part, but this is no different than the people wanting to give the 1-31 Huebris another chance to see what he can do with better players. They've failed and they have a body of work to prove it. We can give the reins to proven coach Jim Schwartz right now and send Stefanski and Ventrone packing.

I have this crazy idea that Berry and Stefanski are orchestrating a strategic tank season!

First, they convince Garrett to stay. Neither Garrett nor the defense has complained and played hard for the most part.

Second, the offense is very vanilla. They are playing guys out of position with a lot of emphasis on the young playmakers.

Neither Berry nor Stefanski is working as if their jobs are on the line. With the Giants, you can see the writing on the wall when they drafted Dart. Look at all the complaints by Jets players.

People are always poking fun at the Browns for thinking they are smarter than everyone else. They came up with a scheme to manage their cap. How many teams would survive the Watson deal without a full sell-off to recoup?

If you recall, the defense when Berry was hired was not very good. The offense was great, especially the offensive line. Obviously, the plan was to get Watson to elevate the offense and fix the defense. It did not take Berry long to make the defense respectable.

I believe Berry, thinking the offensive line was adequate, was drafting late-round projects to take over in the coming years. When Watson failed, the plan was corrupted.

My gut tells me we do look as horrible as it appears. I think they were fixing the back end of the roster for the future. Obviously, the Watson deal has created a mess, but if he were successful, even just a little, this team would be in much better shape.

I think it is best to sit back and see how things unfold. There is no urgency to fire everyone and start over again. It's been 20 plus years. What is a year or two more?

Bugs, I admire the optimism, but a couple of things jumped out:

"I get that some fans are upset Mayfield was released. Until this regime is gone, they won't be satisfied."

I don't think there is anyone on the board who is a Baker fan above being a Browns fan - we became Baker fans when he played well for us. The reason he is still relevant and brought into the conversation is that (apparently) Stefanski decided he couldn't work with him and wasa happy to move on, Berry and the rest (or many) within the FO decided Watson even having missed a season, with all the baggage of sexual assault allegations, was the way forward - ablily assisted by the Owner then doing everything in his power to ink the deal ... it's a direct reflection of the coaching, talent evaluation and whole entire FO and ownership. I read your comment as if people cherish Baker and feel like they want revenge on the people who let him go ... I don't believe that to be the case. If there was a player Browns fans universally loved and might hold a grudge against Berry for not retaining it would be Nick Chubb. And even there while many would have prefered some loyalty and to keep him - I don't think anyone is suggesting FO changes because Chubb isn't on the team.

Another factor with Baker - it's like seeing your Ex that you dumped at the supermarket every other weekend, and she's dropped 20lbs, started working out and she's now looking damn hot... It's salt in the wound.

"They came up with a scheme to manage their cap. How many teams would survive the Watson deal without a full sell-off to recoup?"

Well for one any scheme is still a work in progress - and I would argue that CLE has not survived the deal and the cap situation and it's one of the reasons we have an aging, injury prone OL that are all going to (probably) be gone next year ... unless we keep one or two of them. Keep them - not because they are foundations for a great OL but because the dead cap space they would create is too big so we are forced to keep below average OL players as starters.

It's all opions and each to their own - I have no problem people wanting to give KS and AB more time. I was all for giving Hue more time after 1-15 and then 0-16. But I don't agree on KS and AB and I didn't back when they got their extension. Yes the Watson trade hurt us - but even if we got a 'top 10 QB' out of that trade this team would still be a complete mess. And where you see Garett playing hard every play and he's happy - I've seen multple posters comment on him taking things easy during games. I have seen him throw his helmet in disgust and anger when we lose. The idea of a team happy to be this incompetant and bad seems like an unlikely scenario to me.

Bottom line it's about the Browns winning and being competant not about the individuals or personalities.

IMO, the offensive line NEEDS 2 starting OTs. You can move Dawand Jones around however you will, he's still going to end up injured and not contributing. Conklin is in the same boat except I think we're starting to see his performance also degrade when he is out there.
We haven't seen a whole lot from Zinter, and that is worrisome. The noise around Wypler is more positive. I don't see us being able to rely on FA again due to the remainder of Watson's cap hit, but I could be wrong there because there are all sorts of numbers being thrown around. It could also be that all the other contracts we've been extending are going to start having their dead caps start hitting.

It's hard to trust this FO to land a true #1 WR. While they've been almost exclusively shopping from the bargain bin (lower draft picks and trading for other teams cast-offs), it's simply been too long that our WR room has been in this sorry state.

They need to hit another home run in the draft like they did this past off-season, but with the caveat that they need to finally fill areas of need.

That sounds great if you think the HC will run the scouting department and the draft. Choose and sign FA's. In case you missed it, it's the roster that's a mess. Something neither of those positions has control over.

Do you really think Schwartz could do much better with this disaster of a roster?

I don't think it is crazy at all.

Why did they focus on getting another first rounder for 2026?
Why do you think they traded Flacco so early in the season? Obviously he was the QB on the roster that gave us the best chance to win.

All signs this preseason pointed to the Browns resetting to some degree this year (not a full rebuild) and many people on here who knew and said this are now somehow surprised it is going exactly the way they guessed a few months back, but now calling for heads to roll? I'm certain the Browns' brass and Stefanski understood the scenario too.

Once the losses piled up early what was the point of keeping Flacco? Play your young QBs and if you hit on one, wonderful. If not, you are losing and prime for a early 1st rounder and the expectation of it being a down year keeps rolling.

The place where they really messed up is Gabriel was a top 100 pick. There is value in top 100 picks and to draft a QB that was projected to be a 5th round or later pick in the top 100 was a mistake. Could have improved the offensive line with that pick. Many guards and centers that are starters were drafted in the back half of the top 100. For a rebuilding team taking a flier on a QB that had little to no physical chance of success because he has the mental capacity was not worth it. Hate the pick when it was made and hate it worse now. Gabriel is a slight upgrade from DTR.

If Gabriel ends up being our backup QB, then the pick will be worth it. It's not his fault that the QBs in front of him were Flacco and Pickett.

That said, I also would have liked a pick at OL instead of a potential backup QB. My understanding is that there weren't many guys that fit at that spot. There were only a couple 1st-2nd round talents, and then a bunch of project linemen (in general). This past draft wasn't exactly overflowing with starter-fringe starter OL talent.

Jared Wilson Guard New England Patriots was the very next pick and has started most of the Pats games in 2025.

Tell me you don't understand the elevated value of QB's in the NFL without telling me you don't understand the elevated value of QB's in the NFL.

Great photo....

Are there numerous examples of NFL teams tanking and it actually leading to a path of long term success? The Colts and Luck, whom ultimately retired after getting pummeled and plagued by injuries. You see it fail in other sports as well, White Sox, Orioles, 76ers, Wizards, Bulls. It worked for the Astros. Mixed-results at best.

The idea of tanking leading to the promised land appears to be more of a fan's way of rationalizing that an incompetent franchise has a well laid plan and is in control of the situation to offer a sense of home and optimism. Tanking is a crutch to be sold to ownership for failure at one's job.

The more likely scenario is that quality organization consistently find sustainable success and lousy organizations remain lousy and may stumble into brief, but fleeting brushed with success.

Oh, so much to say. I think there's a couple of ideas that are not correct in the above posts. I do agree with most but want to give my opinion too.

1)Bonefish, Berry & Stefanski could be good, may be better? What if they are worse? Are you really ready to experience another year or two of this current crapfest then another 3-5 years attempting to fix it by a different regime?

2) Bugs, just an FYI, there are currently 16 teams that have QB's with an APY of $40M or more. Some of those include Stafford, Mahomes, Hurts, Jackson, Herbert, Purdy, Goff, Allen, Burrow, and Prescott. I would say that 1/2 the league has proved it can be done. Keep in mind that Watson's $46M annual tag is not the issue, it's the $34M - $37M added prorated bonus that Berry has created that has caused the cap problem. The Browns are actually paying for 2 Watson's per year with Berry's cap scheme.

3) The worst performance by the defense at PPG (Points Per Game) in Stefanski's 6 years as head coach was 2024 @ 25.6 PPG and ranked 27th. The Best performance by the defense was in 2023 @ 21.3 PPG and ranked 13th. The Browns defense has never been ranked higher than 13th PPG in Stefanski's 6 seasons.
The worst performance by the offense at PPG was in 2024 @ 15.2 PPG and ranked 32nd. The Best offense performance was in 2020 @ 26.3 PPG and ranked 13th. The Browns offense has never scored more than the 26.3 PPG 13th ranking from 2020 season during Stefanski & Berry's reign.

4) MGH - I agree

5) oober, after a complete miss and dragging out of the Wills mistake, do you really want the guy who did it selecting a new LT with his record on the OL? Jones is just another injury in the making after 3 straight seasons missed with knee injuries. It's hard to feel any confidence in Zinter, Wypler, and Jenkins with the very limited play they've experienced but that time they have played has not looked very promising. All this total uncertainty on the OL and Berry and Stefanski want to subject a rookie QB to a totally untested line. Brillant!