DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Are we tanking?

I posed this in the game thoughts thread.

We seem SO poorly coached and play calls seem SO bad right now. Or... are we playing for data?

I read a few things in the last couple weeks about how the OL was shifting around players during games and guys felt like they weren't allowed to gel in any one spot. And about how special teams is particularly (and unusually) loaded with young unproven players atm. And many of the play calls are true gadget head-scratchers. All the rooks are in. They're mostly playing well which justifies it, especially on a bad team but it's slightly unusual all the same. Tanking usually doesn't happen with the players, it happens with coaching and the choices the coaches make. And it can be subtle but there can be tells.

I don't mean to attribute 4D chess to what should just be credited to simple incompetence but they seem almost TOO keystone cops out there. As the season continues, the urge to tank only increases. Especially if they think Mendoza or Simpson or one of the other QB's is the guy and there'll be a land rush because several of the bad teams are unlikely to draft a QB and will be tempted to trade out. This is ONLY IF coaching believes they are safe. If they do have some back-end assurance, why wouldn't they just play out the string and treat the games like its preseason. Which... is kinda what it looks like?

I don't know of course but we've done it before to good end. We may still win a few games because the defense is good enough and like I said, the players aren't usually in on it. But it'll be interesting to see how we play the worst team in the league next week.

No. The team is just garbage. Believing the team is tanking is just a way for fans to cope with the situation.

Hell, the postgame locker room speeches and celebrations after a rare win should be enough to tell any reasonable person the coaches and players are not intentionally losing.

Just accept that this is a truly terrible team/organization.

I think that depends on what you mean by "tanking". If you mean purposefully playing to lose games I think the answer is no.

Now on the other hand it was certainly determined that there wasn't any strategy in place to win much this season. The OL is putrid and nothing was done to really address that. The same could be said for our WR's. While I suppose one could suggest that the signing of Flacco was at least some attempt to give the O a better chance it was quickly diagnosed that with this OL and WR's that wasn't going to work.

At that point I suppose a person could argue that the plan was to tank in some form. All one really needs to do is look at the success rate of 3rd and 5th round QB picks to see neither of these rookies had much of a statistical chance of being the answer at the QB position. Say what you will the numbers speak volumes in that regard. In the draft they did address the RB position and Fannin, while a third rounder has paid pretty good dividends considering the draft investment. But as I mentioned, rational thinking people didn't believe they were seriously addressing the QB position. They took a couple of shots at it but they knew what the odds were. Just finding a competent backup QB with so little invested would be a win.

Once they let Flacco go and made it known they were going to take a good look at the rookie QB's for the rest of the season the die was cast in regards of the team winning many games. Yes, there was a very long shot chance that one of the two QB's would make it, those odds were rather putrid.

So IMO if you're talking about trying to lose games on purpose my answer would be no. If on the other hand you're suggesting the table was set early not to win many games this year my answer would be yes. But I think that is part of the plan as well. If they plan to address the QB position in this upcoming draft you don't want to be drafting mid round or later.

IMO the finishing touches were put on the D. It was by far the easiest side of the ball to finish up on. A part of the O, RB and TE were addressed this season. That leaves the door open to heavily invest in the O this off season in both the draft and the FA market to greatly increase the talent pool on that side of the ball.

I don't think anyone looking at things big picture thought this would all be fixed in one off season after losing out on three first round draft picks and a second rounder over the past three seasons.

The front office may not be tanking , but going off the teams
Draft and off season player moves , they weren't trying to win either
Anytime you construct a QB room of back ups ...Flacco, Pickett
SANDERS and Gabriel , that's not trying to win right away .
The WR room wasn't upgraded . The oline was hardly addressed .
Haslam was more concerned about a new palace in Brookpark rather than
A winning product on the field

No, I don't think we're tanking as long as we have the same definition of tanking.

Along the lines of what others are saying... we don't have to try to lose a good chunk of games this year... we are just that bad.

I do think we came into this season knowing we would struggle mightily on D. We probably hoped we could get the running game back to what it was... but otherwise we are team that pushed all its chips to the middle (Watson trade and contract) and lost big. Now we are paying the piper for that gigantic swing and miss. Aside from a Tom Brady-esque draft pick, only time can help in digging ourselves out of this hole (we have first round picks again to help restock an aging roster and soon we'll be able to be major players in FA).

So yeah... I don't think we are trying to lose games but I also don't think we are surprised at how this season is going.

We had a good draft in "25. We have some good young core players even on O. We couldn't upgrade every group position in one year. We did try to upgrade WR with Bond who I feel will be a productive part of our future WR room. This offseason we will draft and use FA to improve the O-line and WR's. We all know the Watson trade killed us. We would be a better team with those picks and more cap space to sign players. I feel that if we have another good offseason of FA and drafting, we can contend for the division next year.

Rather than define tanking as trying to lose, I mean it more in the sense of not really doing everything you can to position yourself to win. Other priorities start to leapfrog winning. Such as seeing more of the bottom of the roster on the field, moving certain players in and out of other positions, trying some different looks. I agree that we don't have to try to lose, we're bad enough. But we also don't have to try very hard to win. Similar to preseason... if you win, great. But there's other priorities.

I'm not saying we absolutely are tanking. It's just something to watch. I know it's it's loser mentality but it's also practical reality to be half hoping for the L's at this point. The franchise QB is not on the roster. Period. As it is we're at 6, we're going to have to move up to get the candy next year. Unless...

I agree with you that "Changes are coming."

I totally disagree with you that guys are playing with little experience. Let's take a look at what the Browns have been doing: Guard, Teller (31) and Bitonio (36) have taken 756 and 785 snaps on offense this season thus far - Jenkins (28) has taken 78 snaps and Zinter (25) 0 snaps. No youth playing here with Bitonio surely to retire and Teller a FA - why isn't Jenkins and Zinter getting more playing time? Outlook - poor at this point.

Tackles: Robinson (31) 459 snaps (FA), Conklin (31) 383 snaps (FA), Leveston (26) 357 snaps (under contract in 26'), Lucas (34) 289 snaps (under contract in 26'), and Jones (25) 143 snaps (under contract in 26'). PFF has graded 80 positions at OT. Browns tackle grading is currently 63rd Conklin @ 57.4, 76th Leveston @ 47.9,
77th Robinson @ 46.2, 79th Lucas @ 42.9, 80th Jones @ 32.8. Not a single tackle in the top 78% of the rated NFL tackles in the league. Outlook of poor is an understatement.

Center: Pocic is a FA at seasons end. Pocic (31) has taken 781 of the snaps. Wypler (25) has taken 37 snaps. Pocic's PFF grade is 65.9 and ranks him 18th which is below more than 50% of centers graded. Again, where are these young guys playing when the Browns have such a critical area of need?

Bottomline, The Browns have taken approximately 800 snaps on offense. To date, the Browns have 5 OL players under 30. Leveston (26) has taken 44.6% of the snaps at OT. Jones (25) has taken 17.9% of the snaps at OT. Jenkins (28) has taken 9.7% of the snaps at OG. Zinter (25) has taken O% of the offensive snaps. Finally, Wypler (25) has taken 4.6% of the snaps at Center.

IMHO, the youth on the o-line is not playing. At this pace, the Browns will have little to no knowledge from game experience as to whether any of their under 30 players on the o-line are ready to take over those positions in 26'.

You focused on one unit of the team, the OL, and tried to use that one unit to show we aren't using young players. Try doing that with the QB's or the RB's. Good Lord man.

Who in this organization has any past experience or knowledge of how to build a successful organization?

define "sucecssful"

If it's playing in the playoffs... all of them

if it's playing in the Super Bowl...


Here is the very short list of coaches in the last 10 years who have been to the Super Bowl

Andy Reid (never leaving KC)
Dan Quinn (commanders coach)
Doug Pederson (was ran out of philly)
Gary Kubiak (Broncos HC)
Kyle Shanahan (Manziel ran he out of Cleveland)
Nick Sirianni (philly HC)
Pete Carroll (coaching the Raiders poorly)
Sean McVay (probably not leaving the Rams anytime soon)
Zac Taylor (Cincy)


Not coaching
Bill Belichick (out of football)
Bruce Arians (retired from coaching)
Ron Rivera (he sucked in Washington and was fired)

Manziel ran out of Cleveland?

Great post. (I love when others do the homework for me ) We all know the OL has been a crap show. Interesting that there hasn’t more of a concerted effort to go with youth on the OL as I had been led to believe. Would seem to go against the tanking narrative. Thanks for that.

lol wow. my bad... that was a complete thought in my head.

Because of the Manziel situation, Shanahan ran out of Cleveland.

Unfortunately, there is no one magic formula that always works. What worked one time might not work the next time. You have to try to work with what's available and constantly adapt to changing circumstances. Sometimes what's available isn't good enough. Sometimes athletes get hurt by the constant mashing each other. There's not some set in stone checklist one can follow to guarantee everything works out perfectly every time.

Not every team can have an MVP caliber QB. 32 of those guys don't all exist in their prime at the same time. Without one, it's an uphill battle.

You underestimate the importance of a steady leadership, a clear vision, accountability and a visual framework that everyone sees and understands.

Drafting and signings, injuries, fitness, form and so on are temporary problems. Having a structure and a clear vision is the fundamentals.

Yesterday’s loss was a consequence of lack of leadership.

When the game is on the line you play your best players.
When the game is on the line it’s about execution.

Stefanski once again tried to be the smartest guy in the room and as usual he tripped on his own ideas. That’s who he’s. Results don’t lie.

The play caller is the OC Tommy Ress. Did you forget? Just the way you wanted it when you said Stefanski was a terrible play caller.

If Sanders continues to improve we have our QB, keep Zappe as backup.

Then Jenkins and Zinter need to play out this season to determine where if needed to draft Guards.

If Jones is determined to be a starter at either OT then we need to draft only one OT.

If all this works out we would have unimagined draft possibilities open.

The head coach is responsible for the whole team, that’s includes the special team. If the ST didn’t execute good enough then the HC is part of that failure too.
It doesn’t matter who call the plays, especially late in the game when every decision can be a gams changer. The bucks stop with the head coach, that’s why they pay him $3m/season.

According to Stefanski the decision to run a wild cat was taken before they run down the field close to the end zone. Number 12 was super hot, two TD in the last couple of drives.
The momentum was starting to shift. The Browns were playing in their own stadium. All the chips were starting to flip in the Browns favor. At that time you simply don’t bench your best and most important players. That’s a no go in such situation. It doesn’t matter how much they have practiced that play if it wasn’t with the right players.

An experienced and confident head coach slow down the decision making in a situation like this and take control over his coaches and players.
A wild cat demands rhythm (flow) and decisiveness. In situations like this you go with those who’s experienced enough to cut outside noises and those who’re hot and in the zone. Benching Sanders made it is easy for the Titans to lineup. One rookie unsurprisingly hesitated and one tenth of a second the game was over.

Stefanski is a bad head coach.

The results back me up and what I see and read is just confirming my stance and there’s nothing so far in this season that have make me reevaluate that opinion.

So all of your complaints about the play calling have nothing to do with who is calling the plays? Got it.

From what I saw the last two weeks…. YES we are tanking on purpose.

I wouldn't mind picking up a vet QB to stash/reclaim. We could do round 2 with Pickett or pick up someone similar on the cheap as a side reclamation project.

If we can get a strong LT prospect in the draft, then I think we're good with sliding Jones back over to RT and trying again at adding some depth there. Settling the tackle spots like that would be like having a completely different (as in better) Oline.

It's not tanking when you just happen to suck THAT bad. I mean we have 3rd stringers starting on offensive line. It's a miracle we don't look even worse. The Browns are trying to win. They are just not good enough yet.

For all of those blaming everything on any certain person (be it Kevin, Tommy, our QB's or anybody else. Just how great did the Chiefs offense look this week. Be honest The Chiefs OT's are going down as fast as ours are this season. Patricks stat line last week???

14 of 33 for 160 yards. ZERO TD's THREE Int's, 2 sacks and a QBR of 19.8.


How many of you think this is the fault of The Chiefs Head Coach, Offensive cordinator, or on Mahomes himself.


Of do you think you can't win in the NFL if you if you can't protect your QB??? or run the ball.

Now see what you did. That is uncalled for! You injected actual common sense to the argument. That is not allowed in these parts!!!

I read these posts and hear on talk shows that KS doesn't like Shedeur and is purposely trying to make him fail. I think that is utter nonsense! If Shedeur has the potential to become our FQB why would he do that? KS doesn't want to win? He seems pretty happy when we do win. There are instances over the years where HC and their QB's didn't see eye to eye but they tolerated it because they were winning. Dan Reaves and Elway come to mind. BB and Brady also. I'm 100% behind Shedeur and hope he becomes a top QB for us. Let's give him a fair chance.

There is a lot to criticize Coach Stefanski for but not liking Sanders or purposely trying to make him fail is idiotic. The Browns traded up to draft him. They used a 6th and a 7th to get up into the 5th round to draft Sanders. They felt the value in Sanders was too good to pass up at that spot. They did not use that draft capital just to tank someone's career they did not like. How insane of a thought is that? They drafted Gabriel in the 3rd round and while I think that was a bd pick it was the pick they made in that spot and treated both players like a 3rd and 5th round selection. I think they viewed Gabriel as someone that can run and offense that has a great QB mind and could turn into something. I think his physical limitations being too small and too weak an arm prevented him from that. So, he got the reps and the 1st chance to prove himself. I think they viewed Sanders as someone that could be developed into a QB because he has enough size not ideal size, enough arm talent but still not ideal arm talent, enough athleticism but not elite athleticism. What he does have is the ability to throw accurately both in the pocket and on the move. In QB terms he was undisciplined and immature going into the draft and it really hurt his draft status. I think Stefanski has made him work and earn everything to this point for a reason. He had to grow up and learn to play the position disciplined on and off the field. Stefanski has worked as hard developing Sander's discipline as much as Sander's play. Sander's development may be the only thing left that can save Stefanski and Berry's job.

Who made the call to go for two after the second-to-last TD?

Who made the decision to even practice that ridiculous wildcat for short yardage situations? How many precious practice reps were/are wasted on that smarter-than-tho BS?

Did anyone nudge another and remind EVERYONE that 4/5 of the OLine were backups...and point out how ineffective our run-blocking is? Especially short yardage?

Its not just ONE thing with KS that highlights his incompetence. If it IS just one thing...all one has to do is look at the record.

P.S. I hope other Browns fans can get to the realization that counting on D Jones to be a long-term starter would simply show more organizational incompetence. He is a bad run-blocker...so that's not a fit for RT. He is wildly injury-prone...you can't count on a still-developmental guy to be your LT especially if he can't stay healthy. He's a backup swing tackle at best...no shame in that.