DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Are we tanking?

we had the best of both worlds last game - looked OK with the QB, competed and lost

I bet you're just a blast at parties.

What background is it you have in NFL coaching again?

Come on now ... what experience do any of the posters have of being an NFL coach? GM may be the closest thing? ... using that as a way to dismiss any opinion you don't like is really futile. In essense if we comply with that thought process no-one posts any opinion of 'football matters' because none are NFL coaches.

You could have said the same thing who were critical of any of our head coaches or GMs from Hue Jackson to Phil Savage ... it would not have made those opinions invalid.

I think Stefanski is a below average head coach. It's not based on this season with a banged up low talent offense ... it's based on multiple years of being the HC of the Browns, 2 of which were good. But throughout he's shown the same tendancies of getting pass happy, calling cute plays, poor discipline, good opening drives followed by zero adjustment and being out coached time and again by the opposing team - and week in week out through the years we look inept and poorly managed, the weekly "I must do better" - "we most do better!" - and yet there is zero accountability. I would have fired the ST coach 3 games ago. . . . but after the last 2 weeks, a potted plant could replace the ST coach and we'd be better off.

Just like when Hue got his chance after 2 disasterous seasons, it **appears** we'll see Berry and KS leading/coaching the team and the draft and free agency again next year. No-one's opinion on this board is going to influence the decision. Debate the opinion, don't slam the poster.

[quote=PitDAWG]I bet you're just a blast at parties.

Coming from you,that is hilarious.

I'm a blast at parties! I just don't discuss politics at parties.

And let's face it, at my age I don't go to many parties anymore.

I'm certainly not opposed to differing viewpoints. I think we both know that isn't the issue here. But at some point it becomes an obsession to the degree at which we hear it ad nauseam from the exact same people. That's usually the point at which I throw a little sarcasm in their direction.

I would certainly not try to defend Stefanski to the point of being some great NFL HC. But as much as people will say what they will, there have only been two seasons when the Browns have had decent and healthy QB's on their roster since he has been here. And one year it was Flacco after being pulled off of his couch. In both cases he made the very most of the talent he had. In the case of Flacco especially he took a mediocre journeyman and certainly got the most possible out of what was left of his skill set.

I felt Hue needed an opportunity to show what he could do with more talent on the roster. He was given that opportunity and failed miserably at it. That meant it was time for him to go. In both seasons where Stefanksi had any semblance of talent at the QB position that has not been shown to be the case. There really is no comparison there.

Pass happy is a somewhat vague term used as a generalization. The objective each week is to break down your opponent and try to exploit their weaknesses. Each week you also must look at your own injuries in determining which is the best method to about attacking your opponents. Two factors people often ignore for the most part and totally fail to mention is the scoreboard and time clock when using the generalization "pass happy". We both know if the game is getting away from you and the time clock is ticking down there comes a point when throwing the ball becomes pretty much the only option you have left. That information doesn't show up on a stat sheet.

Every team has gadget plays. When they work people praise a HC's innovative approach and imagination. When they fail we see the kind of comments you just made about them. It actually has nothing to do with the plays at all. It has to do with whether the players execute those plays well or not.

When it comes to accountability I agree with you. At the same time I don't see unrealistic expectations as being the same thing.

You see it wasn't Stefanski who signed the watson deal. Sure he may have had some input into the decision but there are two layers above him that are the deciding factor and who make that final call. That cost the Browns big time. It put a stranglehold on having the ability to sign upper level FA's. It cost three first round draft picks and then some. As such I often see what we call accountability being placed in the wrong direction. Stefanksi isn't the reason this roster is so bereft of talent. With the OL and WR situation he is dealing with I think people believing he could get much more out of this O are far more guilty of unrealistic expectations than anything people can point to that Stefanski has done this season.

As I stated I don't think Stefanski is a great NFL HC. That's not my argument here. My argument is that it seems to me he gets a lot of blame for some things that are well beyond his control.

Exactly. Common sense has to rule out in this situation. We just had a great draft. It would be really dumb IMO to change our HC and GM. A move like that would set us back even further. Let Berry have another draft and FA signings. Give Sheduer time to develop and see where we stand after that. If we make the right moves this offseason we can contend for the division next year.

Besides CoachB?

no one.

I think Bond is someone who could round out into a legit NFL starter, and Corley has some interesting skills that should keep him on the roster.

I can understand arguments for and against Jeudy being part of any long-terms plans whatsoever.

I think Bond is someone who could round out into a legit NFL superstar.

He's an athletic freak with elite speed who, with a little work and determination, could be an elite route-runner as well.

You must remember the skill set for Browns receivers is route running and YAC.

The two rookie QBs have struggled with the timing needed in this offense. Sanders has improved these last two games.

To say the receivers are garbage is misleading; the quarterbacks need better timing on their intermediate throws. How many times have we seen passes thrown late, high, and low? Yes, receivers must catch the ball, but to take advantage of their skill set, the quarterback must lead the receiver open with anticipation throws. This comes with a better understanding of defensive pass coverage.

The Browns do not have the elite receivers, but they have enough good receivers. The quarterbacks must get better.

In actuality, if Sanders improves his timing, this whole offense improves. The Bears will be a good test this Sunday.

I kinda feel the same way. Great speed and if he can keep his nose clean and put a full offseason/TC in, he might turn out to be a legit WR in the NFL.

What is the Browns biggest need?

Who do you think the Browns next HC should be?

OL. Truth is it’s very hard to get a read on anything else as long as the OL is comically bad. Lots of needs but that is truly the biggest stop-the-bleeding issue.

Watching the game, they posted a stat midway through the game.

Beart's pressure rate
On the season: 29%
Today 60%

How many organizations would keep a head coach with 25 losses in less than 2 seasons? He’s on track of losing 3 more, 28 in total.

Think about it. With Stefanski at the wheel the Browns statistically are on track of losing almost 80% of all games in 2 consecutive seasons. If I’m honest that’s an amazing accomplishment. Almost unrealistic. Even if a blind monkey was calling the play I think the Browns would get a few more wins. I mean what could be worse than what we see atm?

That’s the level that some are trying to defend.

‘We have to do better”

This year is proof that sacks is the most over rated stat in football.
The media glorifes it and over blows " sacks "
Show me how many past SB teams also had the leagues sack leader
Very very rare .
Myles is having a great year sacks wise . But sacks don't equate
To wins .

I don't know but how many coaches could deal with having so little talent on the team. There is not a single 1st round pick on the Browns offense. I don't know how you would expect to see anything else.

Six seasons. What’s the excuse 2026?

Floquinho the excuse for 2026 is that it will take time for the new o-line to build cohesion. I would expect a rough start to the season and then for it to get MUCH better. I am assuming of course that they actually draft a stud at WR and LT and a RT depending on what we pick up in FA. IF I were the GM I would trade back to pick up another first in 2027 if there is a trade partner willing. At the least maybe accept a 2nd round pick to move back a spot or two so we can draft more offensive linemen in the second round because the second round is a great place to get good offensive guards and centers. I would use first round picks for key positions and try to stockpile 2nd round picks galore to build up some actual depth to our roster.

I am assuming of course we don't draft a QB in the first 4 rounds. IF we draft a QB in those rounds it's going to be another wasted year because big holes will be left on this team.

That’s a good strategy and I’m with you on most of it but the dysfunctional leadership is still there. New players doesn’t erase bad decision making.
You must ask yourself a couple of crucial questions.

Have the team and especially our quarterbacks developed or regressed under Stefanski’s leadership?
Have our results got better or worse with time?

Common sense says that you can only lose so much before you’re what the results tells us.
Today’s Cleveland Browns is a product of Andrew Berry and Kevin Stefanski’s leadership.

Results have to matter.....BUT, a coach who peers/league votes Coach of the Year TWICE doesn't become a bad coach overnight. The Big Swing and MISS with Watson has to be owned by owner and GM. We lost the good years of line play thru terrible QB play and injuries. Please don't say all teams lose due to injuries- we lost BOTH tackles, center, and guards are past their prime. Going into the Chicago game with patched line, rookie QB, and poor receivers- what was expected. BUBBA/special teams needs firing, but I'm not sold on SKI.

It’s not your fault but all these various excuses like Coach of the Year and Big swing means nothing. Losers find excuses. Winners search for solutions.
(it has gone from swing to BIG swing - so that’s a development - soon it’s the biggest SWING ever - have to be best at something….)

Good leaders overcome obstacles and temporary challenges. That’s why they’re good leaders. Teams with lack of confidence search for the “final solution “ when more stable organizations mostly tries to lift the floor. From good to excellent , from excellent to great. Their goal is constant evolution.


The Cleveland Browns, the local media and a part of their fan base have developed a mentality where being bad is acceptable. That has to change.
The new leadership biggest challenge must be to create a new healthier environment and a more result based mentality.

This leadership don’t have those attributes and that’s why they need to go.

If aren't tanking at this point, we should be.

Stefanski isn't calling the plays. You were whining about it then too.

And neither did having the best LT in a generation with Joe Thomas. So I guess that means we shouldn't have any players who are great at their respective positions. Yeah, that's it.

I'll ask the questions again... did it look like a tank job?

I didn't see the game but there's usually little tells when it comes to tanking. It's not usually the players, some of whom might be playing lights out. It's usually play calling, defensive calls and rotation decisions and just general bumbling on the part of coaching. Certain guys getting limited rotation or rotated in to odd roles or at odd times. Going in and out of man/ zone at unfortunate times, that sort of thing. It almost never gets mentioned during the broadcast and you don't notice because the camera is showing you players running hard, throwing hard, diving for catches, fighting thru blocks etc.

I know they're going to give Miles every opportunity to get the sack title but isn't it a tad odd that the defense is SO porous all of a sudden? It's not like we have an unusual number of additional injuries that I'm aware of. Everything I'm reading today is about how halfhearted and under prepared the team looked. That might be exactly how you'd describe a team that's tanking. In which case, they're doing a GREAT job. I think it can be pretty hard to see for most passive fans. But like I said, there are tells. Nothing provable in a court of law of course, just... bad decision making.

Reality is this: The Giants and Raiders play in 2 weeks. One of them has to win (if they tie is that proof they're both also tanking? ) which will push us to #3 in the draft order assuming no one else in the top 4 wins another one. Though the Raiders also have one at home against the HATED, now Mahomes-less and eliminated Chiefs. The Raiders will have only beaten the Chiefs twice out out 12 attempts since 2020 and not since 2022. The losses have typically been very humiliating. I don't know if they'll be able to resist. And the Titans still have the Saints. The Titans didn't play badly yesterday and they seem to be trending up, though the same could said of the saints who won yesterday.

There's a scenario where we all end up 3-14 and because we have the weakest strength of schedule compared to the rest, we end up with the #1. There's a better chance end up at #2. But we need to lose and the Bengals game at seasons end looms. We usually split the season with the Bengals and they're in free fall. So we'll need to do our best keystone cops routine.

Normally I say win no matter what, but my tune has changed for now. I think Sanders will always be a C+ QB. Just good enough to win you 7-10 games and get you blown out in the wildcard or division game. There's a lot of C+ QB's that come and go in this league. They give you a few A games a year, a handful of D's and it's 3 or 4 years before the team comes to grips with their ceiling. Get Mendoza. 6'5", 225, cold weather, big 10 bonified winner, seemingly super level guy with a chip on his shoulder and no drama. The cards go our way and we don't even need to trade up. But we gotta lose.

LAST WEEK:




AFTER SUNDAY:





New Orleans won, so that monkey is off our back (if we lose-out). They would have held the tie-breaker with a weaker SoS.

12/28 games will paint the picture with broad strokes: NO @ TEN and NYG @ LV
We'll be rooting for the Titans to beat New Orleans and take themselves out of the two-win category. The Giants at Raiders means one of them will be out of the two-win category. Let's hope the Raiders win, and fall behind us, since they are in desperate need of some Quarterbacking.

Then... if the above has played out... we just need the Giants to either beat the Vikings (this week) or their rivals, the Cowboys, the final week of the season.


If all that happens and we lose-out... WE'RE NUMBER ONE! I've calculated the SoS under this scenario and we would hold the tiebreaker.

Sing it with me: WE'RE NUMBER ONE! WE'RE NUMBER ONE! WE'RE NUMBER ONE!

Isn't this fun!?!




https://www.tankathon.com/nfl

https://www.tankathon.com/nfl/remaining_schedule_strength
https://www.tankathon.com/nfl/power_rankings

Actually we want the Giants to win against Vegas and Vagas to beat the now Mahomesless and likely Kelseyless Chiefs at home in the last game. I think both of those are 50/50. Then We just have to pray Ten wins against NO. I think statistically we're likely to draft 3. With luck, 2. With a everything breaking our way, 1. IF, and only if we lose out.

As is often the case I think at this point it's about the most fun we're going to have.

As they say: six of one, half dozen of the other.

I'd say you're spot on in the "likelihood" department.

"If and only if" is a big concern for me. As I said in another thread, I suspect the Bengals game will be two teams trying to out-tank each other, them mostly out of spite.

Can’t be clearer than this.

Supporters, and probably some in the leadership, speculate in the best way to lose and how other results can go their way so they’re absolutely sure to come last. That’s when you know when losing has become a natural part of their identity.

(I don’t blame anyone, I’m probably a part of all this too, this losing mentality…… it’s just so sad to see)


Better players can do much but it’s hard to change a culture who’s rotten all the way in to the core.

Let's refresh your memory!

In the 13 years Haslam owned the Browns, the GMs he hired:

1. Tom Heckert;
2. Michael Lombardi;
3. Ray Farmer;
4. Sashi Brown;
5. John Dorsey;
6. Andrew Berry.

Listed are the Head Coaches hired:

1. Rob Chudzinski;
2. Mike Pettine;
3. Hue Jackson;
4. Freddie Kitchens;
5. Kevin Stefanski.

With the help of Paul DePodesta, he finally took his advice and hired Kevin Stefanski. DePodesta is no longer with the Browns. If he fires both Berry and Stefanski, Jimmy will be the primary interviewer for the next hire.

Oh I get it, and I’d agree. It’s truly sad to be losing to win. Losers mentality thru and thru. But truth is, the best team we’ve had since the return came as a result tanking and hoarding high picks. I’ll never not think strategically and there’s one reality to face and one strategy to play right now. Reality: we don’t have the QB. Strategy: get the QB.