Whenever somebody defend a HC and a GM with that record, criticize other successful teams and act like they have all the answers then the only logical conclusion is that they have absolutely now idea what they talking about.
So unless people adopt your line of thinking they have no idea what they're talking about? Superiority complex much?
This’s a great question Pit and I will give you a direct answer. No. But if you read my post carefully you will realize that it’s the combination of both or all three that I’m against.
I know you defend Stefanski and I like that even if I disagree with you. At least you’re consistent. You can say that he has been giving a bad hand, and I partly agree with that but at the same time they both state publicly that they take most big decisions together, or at least with each other’s understanding. That makes it complicated to absolve him from our bad results.
After six seasons it’s hard to blame bad luck, at least in my opinion.
Let’s wait another week then we will know the future of both. If he gets fired I don’t see this as a win, absolutely not. It’s just sad that we have spent a couple of seasons with underwhelming results and almost no accountability. All of us who support the Browns suffers from our bad results.
at the same time they both state publicly that they take most big decisions together, or at least with each other’s understanding.
And somehow you think that means they all agree on these decisions? Just because they all go into a room and share their opinions in no way means their opinions all align with one another. When push comes to shove there is a pecking order to the chain of command. Halsam as at the top, Berry is next and Stefanski is at the bottom. None of that is complicated.
I'll give you a couple of examples. Do you think Stefanksi helped green light giving three first round draft picks for watson? Do you think he had any say in the dollar amount of the contract? Do you think he had a say in going back a second time and making watson "an offer he couldn't refuse"?
You see, I'm sure Stefanski was asked his opinion of watson and if watson is a QB he could work with. Based on past film breakdowns could easily say most all NFL HC's would say yes at that point. But beyond that does Stanfanski have anything to do with the handling of the salary cap? Does he oversee the scouting department? How about the analytics department? How about the draft compensation?
What you seem to be saying is that somehow Stefanski has a say in final decisions that are in no way withing his wheelhouse. I'm sure he has some say within his field of expertise but what you are suggesting goes far beyond that. That doesn't make any sense.
As it pertains to "defending Stefanski" that's a matter of perception. I have said more than once that I wouldn't lose any sleep over it if both he and Berry stay or go. I do think there are legitimate reasons to question Stefanski to some degree. Some of his play calling leaves a lot to question.
But what I will do is try to keep things in perspective. To not just let some BS excuses pass by without question just as I've done above.
We both know that both times he was given a decent roster to work with he has made the playoffs. We both know he has been given little talent to work with. Those aren't excuses or in "defense" of anyone. Those are simply the facts of the matter.
The worst possible scenario I could see in all of this is if Berry stays and Stenfanski gets fired. IMO there would be no excuse to keep the man responsible for building the crappy rosters Stefanski has been burdened with trying to produce wins with and Stefanksi shouldering all of the blame. If one goes they should both go.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
Rees and his play calling .... He's done an excellent job....
I really want to disagree with Scott here, but with the inexperienced QB (as you mentioned), and the subpar performance of the Oline, it is very difficult to form an accurate opinion. But to me, our offensive playcalling appears very basic (of necessity?) and unimaginative. (And to boot, I am an amateur in any event....lol).
Haha, no worries. We all are amateurs. You said about being basic/maybe necessity. I don't know the answer. Regarding our rookie playmakers, I know I have said earlier this season they've all had some issues (i.e. spacing in routes, *assuming* at times running the wrong routes, their run blocking). I can see that possibly playing a role into the calls.
I can't speak for years past, as I rarely watched breakdown of games. Stef's play calling this year just seemed all over the place. Play calls didn't seem to have a rhythm and play calls at times weren't building off a look (formation). Maybe it was because of the inexperience of his rookies. Maybe it was just bad calling. I don't know the reason. I do know there were games we ran a certain play/formation that was different than others. The first rep of it...positive play. We tried running one or two other times and both were negative plays. The issue was there wasn't any deception. You have to make the LBs think instead of just instant reaction. That split second of diagnosing or wrong step by the LB can be the difference in a 4 yard gain or a 20 yard gain.
As for Rees, in my opinion I am seeing what the offense is trying to do. They've ran quite a few plays in different formations and have ran, passed, play actioned off of them. As the games have went by, we are seeing that Corley jet sweep/end around...now we are seeing Corley go in motion to show the possibility of a end around only to run other plays off of it. They've also added plays. The Fannin touchdown in the first quarter where he went in motion and looped back under the DE for a TD? The 49ers ran that play against us a few weeks earlier.
No playcaller is perfect.I will just say I've been pleasantly surprised by how Rees has done. Sometimes you just don't see the results due to human error (missed blocks, bad pass, missed targets, etc).
at the same time they both state publicly that they take most big decisions together, or at least with each other’s understanding.
And somehow you think that means they all agree on these decisions? Just because they all go into a room and share their opinions in no way means their opinions all align with one another. When push comes to shove there is a pecking order to the chain of command. Halsam as at the top, Berry is next and Stefanski is at the bottom. None of that is complicated.
I'll give you a couple of examples. Do you think Stefanksi helped green light giving three first round draft picks for watson? Do you think he had any say in the dollar amount of the contract? Do you think he had a say in going back a second time and making watson "an offer he couldn't refuse"?
You see, I'm sure Stefanski was asked his opinion of watson and if watson is a QB he could work with. Based on past film breakdowns could easily say most all NFL HC's would say yes at that point. But beyond that does Stanfanski have anything to do with the handling of the salary cap? Does he oversee the scouting department? How about the analytics department? How about the draft compensation?
What you seem to be saying is that somehow Stefanski has a say in final decisions that are in no way withing his wheelhouse. I'm sure he has some say within his field of expertise but what you are suggesting goes far beyond that. That doesn't make any sense.
As it pertains to "defending Stefanski" that's a matter of perception. I have said more than once that I wouldn't lose any sleep over it if both he and Berry stay or go. I do think there are legitimate reasons to question Stefanski to some degree. Some of his play calling leaves a lot to question.
But what I will do is try to keep things in perspective. To not just let some BS excuses pass by without question just as I've done above.
We both know that both times he was given a decent roster to work with he has made the playoffs. We both know he has been given little talent to work with. Those aren't excuses or in "defense" of anyone. Those are simply the facts of the matter.
The worst possible scenario I could see in all of this is if Berry stays and Stenfanski gets fired. IMO there would be no excuse to keep the man responsible for building the crappy rosters Stefanski has been burdened with trying to produce wins with and Stefanksi shouldering all of the blame. If one goes they should both go.
I actually agree with a lot of it but maybe we have some disagreements about the decision making. The part I think you’re totally spot on is that if you fire one you fire both, otherwise it doesn’t make sense.
The whole Watson experience was a disaster from the start to the end. Whoever said what doesn’t matter. Amateurs the whole bunch.
"Even as the end of the regular season approaches, with Cleveland long eliminated from postseason consideration, the players are showing they’re not about to bail on head coach Kevin Stefanski, no matter what their win-loss record shows.
Among the loudest voices showing their continued support for the organization's current process, were rookie quarterback Shedeur Sanders and superstar edge rusher Myles Garrett.
"I think it's a group of guys that have been through a lot of things within themselves”, said Sanders after the game to reporters. “I think we're all banding together and being one through any situation, like things that we can control.
“I think we’re the cornerstones of this team.”
Garrett also expressed similar feelings after the team’s fourth win of the season.
“Regardless of the record and what’s happened on the field, I’m proud of these guys and how much they put in this as men. The kind of camaraderie and the kind of team we have. I don't think I've ever been so happy and excited to go to work, just being alongside those guys. Whether it’s the D-line, or the offense, linebackers, the secondary. Guys that not only make me proud, but proud to be a Brown. They make me proud to do this thing and be here every day. I’m happy just to wake up and have the opportunity to play with them.”
I'll say this... the defense showed a TON of grit in this last game. FAR more than I thought they had in them for the past few weeks given how the season has gone.
I don't know if it's them rallying around Garrett and chasing history, or playing for their jobs going into the off-season, but the fact is they played their tails off the whole game.
"I'll take your word at face value. I have never met you but I assume you have a face..lol"
In some cases it may be both. And the offense better be glad the D showed up or it would have been another loss. You won't win any games scoring 13 points unless your D is there to bail you out.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
If this reporter got this news then AB is aware and a part of it.
Maybe changes to the scouting organization? Depo is gone. Maybe a different approach to the evaluation process.
If Haslam intends to replace AB this seems strange.
No matter how the Watson deal is looked at or what the truth is.
Andrew Berry is the Executive Vice President of Football Operations and General Manager. He was at least complicit in the DW mess. He had to agree or was the driver.
Moving on from Berry is not a radical move. If he is fired KS would most likely have to go as well. Unless a new GM wants him to stay.
If so, I don't think it means the Browns are going to move on from Berry, but perhaps, add someone to the personnel dept. Similar to when Berry has the former Colts GM, Ryan Grigson, for a bit.
At DT, context and meaning are a scarecrow kicking at moving goalposts.
I have no problem adding some people to help with the draft and I have posted that previously. I’m of the opinion that we should keep both AB and KS. AB just had his best draft and The team plus hard for KS and hasn’t quit on him considering what a lousy season it’s been. Give them another year. JMO
With Depo gone maybe it is an indication that the evaluation process in the draft would be more traditional.
Meaning more scout driven on ability.
It is beginning to feel like there will be no change in GM /HC.
Bone...This is what I've been calling for..get Berry some help to judge talent.
Berry is deeply involved in structuring contracts and helping the Browns manage their cap situation. I'm not about to blame Berry for the Watson deal and what that deal did to the Browns cap situation.
Berry does have his strengths such as managing the Cap but his ability to judge football talent is where I believe Berry could use some help.
The Browns franchise needs to rebuild their traditional methods of judging football talent after years of relying on the 'data' to judge football talent. Adding scouts, adding a GM with a strong background at judging football talent to help Berry out.
...I doubt that John Dorsey would come back to take such a position...but someone like him might be what Berry needs to help him build the Browns into a championship caliber NFL franchise.
All professional sports teams use analytics. The Browns will continue to do so. The question becomes the mixture of scouting, film and analytics they decide to rely on to make those draft picks. It would certainly be plausible to suggest that they may depend a little less on the analytics side of things than they did previously and give more weight to the scouting and film side of things with the departure of Berry. I think it's much too early to tell about that.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
He should do whatever he feels is necessary to get results.
I have been a proponent of a committee approach to evaluating quarterbacks because current methods have had questionable results.
That is one of the reasons I started the thread on Quarterback Defined. Having guys like that look over prospect tape and the internal scouting reports to determine if there is a consensus.
All professional sports teams use analytics. The Browns will continue to do so.
This - 100%. It was true with Depo and it is true now. I doubt Berry will use or rely on analytics any more or less than before.... jmo. Be interesting to see if GM has a take.
The more things change the more they stay the same.
All professional sports teams use analytics. The Browns will continue to do so. The question becomes the mixture of scouting, film and analytics they decide to rely on to make those draft picks. It would certainly be plausible to suggest that they may depend a little less on the analytics side of things than they did previously and give more weight to the scouting and film side of things with the departure of Berry. I think it's much too early to tell about that.
Pit...yep, all teams use analytics. We used analytics when I played HS football but our coach did not rely on analytics/data to choose his starting players.
Something I've held back is the situation with those responsible for the Patriots turn around this season. The Pats were 4-13 in 2024 and now they are 13-3 in 2025.
How did the Patriots turn their franchise around..? The Browns helped Robert Kraft hire the right people to turn their franchise around.
Mike Vrabel worked for the Browns in 2024 as a Coaching and personnel consultant. Did the Haslams and Depodesta consider Vrabel as a possible head coach for the Browns for 2025..? Looks like Vrabel didn't meet the Browns high standards. Instead, Vrabel took the Patriots HC job for Robert Kraft.
The Browns also employed the Patriots current GM Eliot Wolf (official title-Exec. VP of Player Personnel/de facto GM: Eliot Wolf). Eliot's father is the Packers former GM, Hall of Famer Ron Wolf.
The situation with the Browns decision to part ways with Eliot Wolf must have upset his father who spoke to the media. The story below explains how the Browns were operating at that time...
Former Packers GM Ron Wolf denounces Browns' 'out of control' analytics as his son, Eliot, leaves Cleveland By Gabriel Fernandez Jan 29, 2020 at 8:23 pm ET link
It wasn't exactly a surprise that the Browns and assistant general manager Eliot Wolf decided to "mutually part ways" on Wednesday after the team had fired vice president of player personnel Alonzo Highsmith just hours before. Both of the now-former members of Cleveland's front office were brought on by ex-GM John Dorsey, who also "mutually parted ways" with the franchise on the last day of 2019.
What was actually a bit of a surprise was how Wolf's departure appears to have brought his father, Ron, out of the woodwork to talk some smack about how the Browns are currently set up. The Hall of Fame former general manager of the Packers had this to say to ESPN's Chris Mortensen:
Chris Mortensen @mortreport · Follow Hall of Fame GM Ron Wolf said the @Browns and others who embrace an analytics-driven model are "out of control." Wolf: "When something goes wrong, who takes responsibility? "Their answer: `Well, that's what the data told us.' What a crock. That's what got 'em 1-31." 4:52 PM · Jan 29, 2020
Ron truly seems like someone who would be the perfect representative of an anti-analytics movement in football. He's an 81-year-old former Raiders scout who retired as a front office executive shortly after the turn of the century, and has a close member of his family still involved in the sport. Of course, an important part of being a representative of that community is giving opinions that are loud and wrong.
Back in 2016, the analytics-minded front office for the Browns wanted to hire Sean McDermott as the team's head coach, but owner Jimmy Haslem ultimately intervened to bring in Hue Jackson instead. The results speak for themselves. McDermott has taken the Bills to the postseason twice in his three seasons as head coach in Buffalo, with an overall record of 25-23; Jackson went 3-36-1 in his two-and-a-half seasons with the Browns before Gregg "I've gotten 11 offers to be a head coach" Williams replaced him halfway through year three and did a better job than Jackson did.
Really this whole situation is about the true beauty of nepotism. If the parent of an normal person decided to blast a former employer, it would mean nothing and probably be rather humiliating. When Eliot's dad does it, the opinion carries enough weight for it to become a news story.
The Browns brain trust did a huge favor for Robert Kraft and his franchise. The Patriots are tied for the best record in the NFL at 13-3 tied with Seattle and Denver.
All professional sports teams use analytics. The Browns will continue to do so.
This - 100%. It was true with Depo and it is true now. I doubt Berry will use or rely on analytics any more or less than before.... jmo. Be interesting to see if GM has a take.
My opinion.
Ok here you go After the Draft the Browns had last year anybody wanting to change things has some series mental health issues, is pushing their own agenda, or just likes to hear themselves witch. That's my opinion.
Looking at the big picture. Considering everything.
If Haslam feels like a change is needed it is Berry that IMO should be fired.
However, even though there is a case to be made for that action.
I would not fire anyone.
IMO Berry and Stefanski are in a better position to improve the team than anyone else coming in from the outside as a new hire.
Together they know the pulse of the team and what needs to happen.
Both have made mistakes. But I feel they have learned from mistakes and will be better at their jobs.
If Haslam decides to make the change then Berry should be fired and a new GM can decide if he wants Stefanski or someone else.
‘Both have made mistakes. But I feel they have learned from mistakes…..”
I’m interested to know how you come to that conclusion, or should I say “that feeling’”? Maybe our 7 wins and 25 losses the last 2 seasons guided you or what happened between all our losses and today to give you such confidence of trust out of nowhere?
“Together they know the pulse of the team and what needs to happen”
Didn’t they know what was needed to happen the last two seasons when we lost almost every game we played? I mean how do you come to the conclusion that after 25 losses in 2 seasons they suddenly know the “pulse of the team” and what’s needed?
Just interested to understand your thought process because that kind of “awakening” is quite unusual after six seasons in charge.
Didn’t they know what was needed to happen the last two seasons when we lost almost every game we played? I mean how do you come to the conclusion that after 25 losses in 2 seasons they suddenly know the “pulse of the team” and what’s needed?
Just interested to understand your thought process because that kind of “awakening” is quite unusual after six seasons in charge.
Everyone knows what needs to happen. Watson and his cap hit need to be gone, and we need to restock on talent after not having first rounders for a while.
Unless it was Berry and/or Stefanski who drove the fully-guaranteed albatross contract that flipped Watson's decision to come here, then holding the consequences of that move against them doesn't make sense.
... and before anyone says it, my assumption is still that the contract and getting him to come here when he initially said no was Haslam. I think there would've been firings already if that wasn't the case.
"I'll take your word at face value. I have never met you but I assume you have a face..lol"
Another thing that AB and KS had to deal with the past few years is all the injuries to the QB's and the O-Line. I don't think that's mentioned enough. Our O-Line has aged and if anyone wants to blame AB for that I say simply he didn't have the draft capitol to replace them because all those pics went to Houston. He tried by drafting Zinter, Wypler and some FA"s. Those guys may pan out but they weren't top of the draft picks. Again, as we all know the DW trade killed us. If we had all those high picks on our roster things would look different for us now.
IMO wins and losses are not a solo measuring guide.
Context matters. Results need analysis.
In this particular case the results were caused for multiple reasons.
If the Watson deal was never made. Then the results would be judged differently.
However, the trade happened.
Since that trade it left the team carrying an anchor.
It has been a scramble to put a quarterback on the field. Berry has some accountability for that but the options available were limited for cap reasons and available draft picks.
Stefanski coaches the players. It is nearly impossible to win in the NFL without competent play at quarterback. In addition cap space limited the roster.
When you go into a season with a 40 year old, a third round, and fifth round QB. After making a trade down in the draft to add a 26 first round pick. You are punting on the season.
IMO and I could be wrong. KS/AB are bright guys who will improve at their jobs. We all learn from mistakes.
The DW time is ending. There are still left over effects.
Berry had a great draft. He needed it. The team has a core of young talent.
The NFL has been and will always be a quarterback driven league.
I would give AB/KS the 2026 season. They will have some resources to address the OL and WR room. Quarterback is still in question but IMO there is enough on the team to have a winning season.
If the team wins under 8 next year. I would fire them both. Because then a new regime would get to draft their quarterback. If they can win 9 plus games with Shedeur and feel after two seasons he is not the guy. Then they should get the opportunity to draft their guy.
My favorite Browns memory of McDaniel is him boozing on the plane on the way to Vegas with WRs and poor Josh Gordon getting tested as soon as the plane touched down.
