DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Browns Fire Stefanski

Hmmm. Hard to swallow that as more than revisionist history when they were all in line to brag about how well the two hit it off in meetings in Houston. Almost made it sound as if Watson was "lured" by Stefanski's ability to draw up plays that would favor his strengths. Reports after the trade stated these two were like lovers and couldn't even stop texting each other with play ideas.

Sounds a little suspect to me.

But I'll say this... if that's the way Stefanski felt, but failed to express it, then it's just more fuel on the fire of "weak leader". This is the same guy that co-signed on the after-the-fact-passive-aggressive "we want an adult in the room". The dude hired to be the adult couldn't keep "the kid" in line when the wrong person was dictating how an injury would be handled.

I'm just very suspicious of what was going on behind closed doors and who it was in the end making those calls. I guess going with the company line in public could be seen as a weakness. I just don't know how productive it would be to publicly bump heads with your bosses. Undermining your bosses in public may actually be seen as a bigger weakness and certainly not a good look on your resume'.

As far as their constant communication goes after watson was signed I would certainly hope that when a HC has to revamp his entire O around a new QB that really doesn't fit the current one, that they would be in constant contact trying to create plays that would work with your current roster.

I'll agree with you on the "almost" part of "almost made it sound as if".

And don't forget, on that second visit they backed up the Brinks truck too. Speaking of being lured.

No doubt lol. The Brinks truck trumps all.


I'll try not to rant here, but I suck at that. Just giving this some breathing space for a day, this is where I'm at...

Hindsight offers little nuance. Stefanski was still young to coaching and jumped on board the Analytics Train. I don't say that to besmirch analytics as a whole, I just think we were sold on letting models, math and consensus be the tail that wagged the dog. The barking head was still (and will always be) Jimmy Haslam.

We were sold, and Stefanski was sold, the idea that people working together in consensus was the best model for success in the NFL. There's little argument that that would be beneficial to a young coach. Problem is, that young coach needs to then break out of the mold he's been cast in and be his own man. I think Stefanski had a hard time doing that and I think the reason why is that there's waaay too much security in being part of the consensus.

It was a lot easier to be the third (or fourth) voice saying "I can make this work" because you know failure means mitigated, shared responsibility. The dude that says "that's b.s., that makes no sense, that's not how I want to do things, etc, etc..." has a short shelf life if he is wrong. Reminds me of a song by Nine Inch Nails - Happiness in Slavery

Don't open your eyes, you won't like what you see
The blind have been blessed with security
Don't open your eyes, take it from me
I have found you can find happiness in slavery

At some point there was a fork in the road (probably after Watson though) where Stefanski chose Stockholm Syndrome over blazing a new path. At that point there was not much choice other than to finish out his tenure here as a "yes man".


The nuance, where Stefanski is concerned, is that he has learned a lot, about a lot, and is probably well prepared for his next gig. Probably with a short list of non-negotiables as well.

The nuance, where we as fans are concerned is that there is no nuance. Jimmy is in charge until Jimmy sells the team.

I don't think Jimmy is a bad person, and I know I'm in the minority in feeling this way, but he owns the damned team - that in and of itself earns him the right to run it however he wants. I also think he genuinely wants to win a championship and will use all possible resources to do so.

I just hope we've crossed the line, at some point or another, where Berry got in his face and told him to go $%^$ himself, and that is the catalyst for a mutual respect in letting Berry just do his job. Because if Berry is still a "yes man", we're probably screwed for a little while longer.

Sounds like Prisco was talking to Stefanski's agent.

I didn't finish reading your post yet, but I had thoughts on this part, specifically....

This is getting into tinfoil hat territory, but I'm starting to wonder if this whole "consensus" thing was sold more to the fans than anyone else. AB/KS were hired as we were coming out of a period of enormous instability. Depo wanted the Buffalo guy and was told to F off and we hired Kitchens, who was canned and then Dorsey quit when he couldn't run the next hire... to say nothing of the disarray that was going on before all them (the Hue era). I'm beginning to wonder if "consensus" was just a word they used when those "same old Browns" questions would start popping up. Hindsight being what it is, I find it hard to believe that KS was in lock-step with watching his offense get twisted into something unrecognizable and simultaneously degrade due to lack of meaningful talent investment.

While our reasoning may vary as to the motivation for why Haslam wants to win a championship, we certainly agree that he does. I'll just say it's most certainly in his self interest from a financial standpoint, a reputation standpoint as well as a business standpoint for him to win one or more NFL Championships. I thought some of the dealings at Pilot flying J were more than a little suspect but I can't say for sure if he was hands on in that. So I'm not convinced he isn't a bad guy but likewise I'm not convinced he is one either.

I do believe just understanding that he's "the third or fourth voice in the room" says it all. His opinion matters little in the grand scheme of things in comparison to the owner and GM.

Where I think our main difference comes in is in my opinion from above combined with this.................

As a HC both the GM and the owner are your bosses. While they will listen to your voice their opinions rule the day. Sure you can show exceptions for men who have been great HC's over time but that's not the situation here. So please allow me to ask you, other than sharing an opposing opinion behind closed doors what other avenue did he have as such a HC? In the end they rule the final decision and your choices are to either work within that framework or leave. To do as your told or be fired.

And as it pertains to this entire "consensus" issue, why does that sound so believable to many? Surely you don't believe they all came to an agreement on every major issue that came across their desks do you? But it is however a great PR tool. You always want to project unity to the public. How many times previously to that had we heard rumors there was division in the FO? Division between the coaching staff and FO? There's a lot of those kind of rumors that spread in the NFL. If you can convince everyone that in no way exists before those rumors start, you have won a major portion of the PR battle.

I just see this from a very simplistic standpoint. Stefanski works for Barry and Haslam. You don't undermine your bosses by publicly disputing them. You don't air dirty laundry. That's simply a part of your job that comes with the package. The corporate hierarchy above your status controls the policies and final personnel decisions. Your choice is to work within that structure or leave. I don't really see it working any other way anywhere else with first and often second time HC's. I won't buy into what I believe to be corporate speak to see it the way they have chosen to package it.

Speaking for myself I have no way of knowing what goes on behind closed doors. I have no idea what's really going on behind the scenes and everything we have been discussing is nothing other than my perspective based on my experience and those who are involved in upper levels of the corporate world that I know on a personal basis. Which means a grand total of nothing.

But I have enjoyed this back and forth and I can see how either of our differing opinions could be likely scenarios here.

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I don't think Jimmy is necessarily a bad person, just a bad owner.

I think he cares deeply about the Browns and doesn't want anything more than Browns success. Dude spends like his life depends on it (players, coaches, facilities, you name it). Compare that to Mike Brown down here in Cinci.

But he still can't seem to stay out of his own way, and we'll continue to flounder until he can get the foundation right (hasn't happened since he took over). Keep in mind, when he bought the team one of his selling points was that he was involved in the ownership circle of the Steelers and could bring some of that over here. Since he purchased we have remained polar opposite of them (no consistent guiding principles and no stable leadership).

Jimmy’s not a bad person. I think he’s a good owner. He wants a winner here as bad as we all do. He’s just made some bad decisions in his quest for it.

I am ok with Stefanski's firing. I guess I am OK with AB staying around. The problem is that we may never know who did what behind the scene. Certainly, many folks will speak as if they know, however, most fans have no idea. Who actually pulled the trigger on Watson and/or agreed to that price tag? I believe it was Haslam, but I do not know for sure. Who was behind the drafts prior to 2025? I would think Berry but some suggest that DePodesta may have heavily influenced the decision making. While neither had much to work with, given the lack of first round picks, it has been suggested that 2025 was Berry's draft alone and DePodesta saw the writing on the wall. But, again, will we ever know?

I do think Kevin had to go. The results were not there. He had a good 2020 with John Dorsey's roster and 2023 with Flacco coming off the couch seems akin to accidental success. I saw too many bonehead calls i.e. 4th and goal with a prime Nick Chubb sitting on the bench to think KS should stick around. All that being said, had the Browns decided to completely clean house, I would understand that as well.

So he did well when the people responsible for building and maintaining the roster provided him with the talent to win.


Yeah, that a sure way of making the playoffs. Sheer luck and accidental success.

I will reply to you, but you only believe what you want to believe so it really is a waste of time. It has been widely reported in Cleveland that Stefanski told Andrew Berry he could not work with Baker during the 2021 season. This more than likely was what Baker himself referred to when he said he needed mature. It has also been widely reported in Cleveland that Andrew Berry was looking into and working on the Watson idea when he was still in Phlly. The consensus among the local media is that Berry came up with the idea of the Watson trade, Stefanski said he can work with Deshawn, and Haslam then would not take no for an answer and that is where the 230 million guarantees came from. Ultimately, we will never know 100% for sure but that is what the local media says.

I'm not saying that you are wrong but I never heard that Stefanski told Andrew Berry he could not work with Baker during the 2021 season... My memory is really bad but it seems like something I would remember.....(?).

Browns being Browns. No good head coach is going to want to step into this hot mess where he can't control his staff or who his QB is and they have no cap space to bring in free agents. Sanders looked terrible the last to games with all the fumbles and interceptions. Kevin is probably happy he is leaving.

The reason they really fired Kevin is that he won too many games this year and screwed up their plans to draft higher. I'm not looking forward to the basement dweller they get as the next HC. Or even worse they get the top HC and he switches us to a 3-4 defense and wants to destroy a good defense to rebuild a defense that doesn't need it when we don't have an offense.

If they had waiting just one more season they would have been a lot more attractive as a team to land a much better coach. This was just stupid.

It's always hard to work with a drunk.

Hey, leave me out of this!

In my opinion,

I don't care who the hell traded for Watson. Haslem, Berry, Kevin, the Easter Bunny...who really cares. It was Haslem...and? It was AB....and? I get what they were trying to do. It didn't work out. It caused issues for future drafts. However, he's still brought in good pieces to the team.


John Lynch traded 3 first round picks and a third rounder to draft Trey Lance. The difference? They were lucky Mr. Irrelevant became a top QB of the league. Lynch has done a good job outside of that mistake.


People make mistakes. That was x amount of years ago. They are aware of their mistake, Berry has been doing his best to correct that issue. It hasn't been perfect I will admit that, however he's created one of the best defenses in the league. He's had some good trades, he's drafted some key players, and has brought in some parts through FA and through undrafted FAs.

Bring in a top OL or two through FA. Sign a veteran WR, draft a OT and a WR and this offense has some great parts to work with.

Corley is young and can be a good piece of your WR core. Bond at this point in time (maybe his game will expand) reminds me of Brandin Cooks. That deep option. There were at least 1 to 2 opportunies per game where he had the deep ball for a big gain or TD if thrown.

Jeudy has a place in this offense. Complain about his drops, you won't be wrong. However, he does get open. Give him a top WR beside him and he becomes more valuable. If Fannin keeps progressing, this offense has a lot of weapons. Not counting the dump off to the RBs in the flats

We have serious issues at the 2 most important positions QB and O-Line. Even if we had Josh Allen he wouldn’t be much good behind our line. But if you have a top 5 line an average QB can do fairly well. I understand the conventional wisdom is to draft the QB first but we aren’t in that position in the coming draft. We are in a position to draft our other needs and hopefully we can trade down and get a #1 for 2027. That’s what I would do

Quoting both just to add content and clarify a bit. I probably should have elaborated on my "consensus" remarks. That word has been twisted out of context, by this organization, and in my own head, so I just type it thinking everyone already shares my headspace.

"Consensus" is a guise by Jimmy to make everyone feel like they're involved in the process. By no means do I think that they always arrive at the same answer, or sit around and "hammer it out" until they do. I just mean that Jimmy has everyone convinced that they always have a seat at the table.

As it pertains to Stefanski, it may have become a copout. A psychological way to subvert true accountability because he was always trying to do his best with what they all "agreed" on. From that standpoint, he may have actually acted like Watson was the greatest thing since sliced bread whether he believed it was true or not... because agreement spreads accountability.

Why does this work so well for Jimmy? Because it means he is always involved. Everyone is expected to "run it by" others, so Jimmy is never in the dark. That way his hands are always on the strings without him looking like the control freak that he is.

Not disagreeing with you Home. I was hoping for one of the top 2 QBs. Unless something crazy happens, that’s not a possibility now.

OLine can be fixed. Qb is going to take some creativity

Trading back from 6 isn’t going to be easy.

Regarding the consensus and front office team ethos that some are speculating about - sure it may be that KS was in a tough place and went along not to ruffle feathers or not to stick his head above the parapet or whatever ... but we heard for years about the way Berry and KS worked together - it was lauded as a positive. It was one of the reasons to keep them. It seems a little too convenient to suddenly promote the idea that the front office framework so highly touted wasn't really the case and it was KS who was railroaded.

For myself - I know GM didn't want to see any change - but I will take his word on the entire organization being in agreement to move on from Baker and go after Watson. So that includes KS. I know what I saw on the field when Baker played hurt his final year and you can't tell me KS wasn't 100% all in on moving on from Baker. It's been mentioned before - but a good HC has to find a way to help immature players, or squash/massage egos. Baker might be very average with occasional great games followed by games with 3 interceptions ... but he's still without question the best QB we have had since 1999. As Bone said earlier - you can win with him. The decision was to ditch him and KS was very much a big part of that. How he felt about Watson? I can't be so sure - but there was nothing to suggest he wasn't 100% in favor.

I expect Stefanski to find another HC role based on what I see in the media - I think a lot of what I see and read overlooks the badly prepared teams we saw so many games, the poor discipline, the tendency to get pass happy, the tendency to get pass happy even with Chubb in the backfield running at 5 yards a carry in a game, the great first drive of a game being followed by dross, the consistent experience of being out coached in the second half, the history of cute plays on 4th down ... and a long history of never holding anyone accountable while simultaneously always talking about accountability. He's a nice guy, he's smart, he's a good organizer and methodical ... he may grow exponentially or he may continue to be what he is today. I understand why some think he was/is very good - I just look at that long list of persistent and repeated issues and disagree. We played the last two games hard and looked well coached - the previous 5 or 6 we looked a shambles including a game where I think we had 3 offensive penalties before our first snap. You have to look at the whole and not the last 2 games and say - the players are still playing hard. jmo

You never know who drops and who likes who. If we do, I hope it is far enough to get another 1st next year as Shedufus insurance.

I agree with what you're saying, in principle. However, the reality is that one person has essentially been given the consequences of this trade. Our record the last 2 years (what was specifically highlighted during the press conferences) is directly related (more than anything else) to that trade. We have been without 1st rounders and largely handcuffed in FA spending because of getting Watson. We have been playing musical chairs with OC's and switching our scheme away from something we were staffed to run and were good at because of Watson.

So to hold the coach responsible when he (I'm assuming) was NOT the primary driver behind trading for Watson really doesn't hold any water.

So according to your own theory it was Barry all along that had been working on getting watson even before he worked with Stefanski here in Cleveland. With that being said he and Haslam pushed for the deal and not Stefanski. While I'm not sure if you are correct that's how I felt it all went down. Thanks.

Just interjecting to add a little food for thought into a part of the timeline we always seem to gloss over...

We know we were interested in Watson. But when were we hell bent on getting him? When our QB choices became Gardner Minshew.

I think a lot of people discount the Baker Breakup Letter and act as if it were just scenery in the inevitable.

Here are the facts: Baker was injured, Baker was irritated, there was friction between Camp Baker and Camp CLE because a crap season was being followed by a looming contract extension. That contract was estimated to be about 130M, and Baker's guys weren't even really talking.

There is a very, very good chance these dudes were getting on that plane thinking this was a win-win even if Watson said no (which he did). I think they may have pictured the "pursuit" as a possible wake-up call for Baker; instead, it was goodnight Irene.


At that point Jimmy saw the Brinks truck as the only possibility.

And let's not forget - most thought we were looking at a 4-6 game suspension and a perineal pro-bowler.

It is not a theory Zach Jackson and Jason Lloyd speak about what I said quite often, and both are in the know with the Browns.

Which part of your post is "not a theory"? Once again, if true it was most certainly true that Stefanski's boss Berry wanted to work out a deal to get watson before he ever started working in Cleveland. That it was Haslam who wouldn't take no for an answer and backed up the Brinks truck for watson.

Without that none of where we sit at the moment would have ever happened.

And then you go on to say that Stefanski claimed he couldn't work with Baker while saying Baker admitted that was his own fault.

You are saying exactly what I thought went on behind the scenes all along.

I may be speaking for myself, but when I say they were hell-bent I'm talking about when we initially were told 'no' by Watson only to respond with the unprecedented contract.

... and sorta to your point, I have always run on the assumption that we would have repaired our relationship with Baker if we needed to. Ultimately, we didn't because we landed Watson. Baker didn't like that we were looking to upgrade from him, but IMO if that didn't pan out we still had a long off-season to negotiate and repair the relationship and then the franchise tag if things really got sticky.

I think Baker saying he was "disrespected", because they didn't even let him know they were meeting with Watson (confirmed by Berry as a mistake), was what most people, inside and outside of the building, saw as a nail in the coffin. Plus, there was even more divide if we are to believe the "wanting an adult in the room" rumors.

There were also no real options at QB available, I literally remember reading down the list and thinking we just went from Baker to Gardner Minshew. I don't think Browns brass were willing to play chicken with Bake when most thought we had a win-now championship caliber roster.

We'll never know. I just get the feeling this is something that would've magically disappeared during substantive contract talks.

Quite possibly. But you have an injured QB, a coach that can't "control" him, a divorce letter, and you're playing chicken with his agents to get a contract done. The first QB contract from that class just rang up 258M (Josh Allen) and that was on the heels of Mahomes' 450M. I think they went from "explore the opportunity" to thinking (even at a king's ransom) a blockbuster deal with an elite QB (Watson) would be a much better choice.

That's the part of hindsight that we all keep forgetting. Watson was elite in everyone's eyes, and seven teams were going after him. There were respected posters here saying he was worth (4) 1st round picks and that we could build a ten-year dynasty with him behind center.

I understand what you are saying and the consequences. It's a valid point. I just look at it as the staff made a decision and it backfired. Their decision to sign Watson wasn't a bad plan regarding the football history of the player.

I am in the same train of thought as you Fate. Especially regarding what was happening during that time. That is why I was excited about getting DW. He was an elite Qb in his prime.