DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Tailgate Forum Barack Obama

I agree with you completely, but I do think the government needs to get involved on some level, but more along the lines of regulating profits and such.

The way I see it, the single biggest problem is that Health Care is a For-Profit industry. When the Cleveland Clinic registers profits approaching $1Billion for a single year, I would say that there is definitely a problem in how our Health Care system is run and that problem is all about too many people trying to get too stinkin rich off of keeping people healthy.

Basic Health has gone "Boutique" and now we're all screwed.

Most hospitals are not the Cleveland Clinic and most are struggling not to lose money every year.

Ya see Arch , Ron Paul has been beating this to death and all his Fellow Republicans make fun of him .. .. All they want to do is spew Copy !

J/C

We currently have a for profit system and spend the most money in the world for this system, where is all the money going?
How much of our current expenditure is profit?
Why do we have major differences in prices for the insured vs uninsured?

That sound you just heard was a moan from several great dead American leaders.

In response to Purple's quote, "..I agree with you completely, but I do think the government needs to get involved on some level, but more along the lines of regulating profits and such.
The way I see it, the single biggest problem is that Health Care is a For-Profit industry."

Holy crap! When you find yourself in a deep enough hole...it is best to stop digging.

The power of the Imperial Federal gov't has gotten so out of hand in controlling who can say what to whom, where you can light up a butt, how much fat you may eat, what bug spray you may use, how many white applicants may be accepted to certain schools, how far a boy may go in romancing a girl without a written consent contract, how little if any fluoride may be in the drinking water and now....................................................

We want the Feds to control not only policy and standards for health care but what charges to the patient are appropriate- and how much profit may be derived.

Research and Development
Meet your grim reaper!

Sadly I guess my answer is yes. How do you balance the medical needs of people with the need to make a buck? When provider greed becomes tantamount to extortion we naturally look to gov.for help. Take my daughters appendectomy for instance. She went to the doc at 3 pm. She had a scan and had the operation at 10PM. It lasted about one hour. She stayed in the hospital until 10AM the next day. Total billed for services was about $ 40,000. (+ 30 bucks on my phone bill for the TV I spoil my little girl.What can I say? ) This can't be? Something needs to be done . Don't get me wrong I'm not really gung ho to see the gov take this over but IMO something needs to be done. This Baby Huey has grown so fat the parents can't afford to feed him anymore. BTW I almost forgot the beauty part. The hospital is supported by tax dollars from surrounding communities.

Moe...."When provider greed becomes tantamount to extortion we naturally look to gov.for help."

I do understand your problem as I faced a huge bill when my 3 yr. old son was diagnosed with cancer. He is well but I paid on that bill forever...but it was my debt- not my neighbors debt.

We DO NOT NATURALLY LOOK TO GOV'T for help unless we enjoy giving up our individual choices

First of all I have no problem. My wifes the smart one who insisted we take the Cobra coverage. This is all spitballing on my part. If you keep challenging with me I'm going to get her after you. First I admire your self relience. That said If you want to pay extortion don't let me stop you. Last I checked extortion was considered a crime.When a crime is commited I look to the gov for support. I guess you don't, This is not about whos debt it is. It's about human decentsy. I'm willing to pay a reasonable charge but why should I pay more than an insurance company? Free market and all, I suppose you'd say because you didn't have much bargaining power when your daughters appendix was about to burst and you'd be right! But is that right? I'd say it's criminal. Look at the price differential between what they asked 40 grand and what they'd settle for 12 grand. You don't see anything wrong with this? And people think car dealers are sleazy! An extortionist that wears a white coat is still a criminal in my book..
I presume that if someone kicks down your back door you won't call the cops because it's not the communities problem? It's a matter of values. Human life vs an individuals right to look the other way. If your neighbor is dying on the floor it's not your problem.If my neighbor is dying on the floor I'm willing to do what it takes to save him even if it costs me money. I'm willing to spend my money on fundamental human rights you're holding out for a big screen TV. Dont worry nothings going to change. I'm afraid I'm out numbered

Moe...Why do you think it costs so much???? You think that it is just so someone can get rich????? My god, we get huge settlements over someone spilling coffee on themselves.....and our topic is talking about a person cutting into another person. Not too mention...do you have ANY idea what it takes to develop, implement, and support the scan your daughter received?????

At the Cleveland Clinic, we do over 1.5 MILLION radiological exams every year. That being, X-Rays, CT's, MRI's, PET scans, Nuclear Medicine, and the like. Now think about that. 1.5 MILLION. And we are just one Hopsital System. That is close to 5,000 exams EVERY DAY. We go through more than 100 TB of image storage space every year. To give you some perspective, the ENTIRE Library of Congress is less than 20 TB. Now in order to serve the customer, we have to be able to not only store those images, but also to make them available to the doctors. And this gets to another point. There are far more doctors and people involved than just your primary and your surgeon. There are the techs that perform and process the exams, the radiolologists who have to read these 5,000 exams every day(and have to be perfect on every single one). Thene there are people like me who have to support all of their systems(both computer and the exam equipment as well) so they can do their job properly. There are Hospital Information Systems(HIS), Radiolical Infromation Systems(RIS), and Picture Archiving and Communication Systems(PACS) that all have to be able to communicate with each other.

And to give you an idea of what some of that entails......A single study could have anywhere from just a couple images, for an xray up to over 1,000 images for Thin Slice CT and PET exams. Lets just take a simple CT Scan. Many are about 35 images plus. I will pick a round number of 50. Each image can be anywhere from 500MB to 1.5GB....Now if you were to download that with your current broadband connection....You might be able to get a single image in an hour....I know I have a cable modem that is pretty fast and I can get 10 MB in a minute or two....so an Hour is VERY generous. Now think about this....How much does it cost you to have that kind of speed? Now think about this....downloading a single image in 1 hour is not going to do anyone any good. We have to support a system that HAS to be much faster. We can usually transfer a study of 35-50 images in about 60-80 seconds. And we have to be able to do this not just within a single hospital building, or a single hospital campus like CC......But we have to be able to do that between places like The CC Campus and Hillcrest Campus in Mayfield, or to Marymount Hospital, Fairview Hospital, or now we have to send images to Denver and Hawaii to be read. We also have clinics in Toronto as many of the residents there cannot get a CT exam done because they have to wait months for an appointment and usually have to travel long distances to get it. We give them another option and the success has been so good, we plan to open more. Soon we will also have to support the stuff from Abu Dhabi.....

What do you think that kind of technology costs????What do you think it costs to support? I didn't even get into the technology of the PACS viewing machines with their dictation software. Or the software that can take these images and splice them together to build a 3D image. This stuff isn't cheap. My group supports probably more than 5,000 machines(very conservative estimate). And about half of those need to be machines that are FAR more expensive than anything any of us are using....Including the major computer enthusiasts. And anytime an employee even glances at a person in the hallway, the Clinic is at risk of a law suit. We have to be PERFECT the first time, EVERYTIME.

Just why do you think things are so expensive???? You really think that it is just about greed of the Hospitals and profits?????

Just to add.....this is a good article concerning the costs that doctors have to pay for Liability insurance and why. Depending on location....some docs are paying more than $250,000 in premiums every year.....and this is ocming from 5 years ago....Let me give you a hint....costs did not go down in those last 5 years...

http://www.aafp.org/fpm/20021000/47unde.html#box_a

Curious : what dose it cost for an ultra sound ???

no, we need 10 more billion to win this tangible war, the enemy is in front of us

would 2008 AMERICA elect a minority president?

i think we all know that answer..

Moe...If I have appeared to attack your situation I do really apologize. If your wife cares to step in - the more the merrier.

My point is not that I am willing to pay extortion fees...it is not that I am not willing to help in these catastrophic situations...it is the collectivist approach to payment of services that we seem to turn to far too much these days.

If you had coverage which paid 100% for all medical services after a small deductible would you car how much the doctor,pharmacy or hospital charged??? Most likely not. The very existence of a third party payer eliminates the concern for efficient and affordable health care services...it isn't your money.

If insurance companies only wrote catastrophic care coverages and we paid Out Of Pocket all general medical bills the prices would decrease for services. Would this be a difficult adjustment...Hell Yes! For everyone involved. Is it worth it? Ask a recovering addict if his withdrawal pain was worth a second chance at a new life.

I am sorry for your problem and wish you the best of luck.

PitDawg---You really don't pay much attention do you?

I pay attention to things "worthy" of my attention, yes.



It's a simple matter of how and what we percieve a problem to be............

IMO- Health care is a human right. Helping the afflicted is the "humane" thing to do. Right is right.

To others, it's capitalism first, humanity be damned!

I believe that thought process to be inhumane and TOTALLY "anti-Christian".

I wonder if Jesus sent a bill to the people HE healed?

WWJD

Ralphie I agree with you.My only point was if I was unfortunate enough not to have insurance ( which gambler Moe almost did, if not for smarter Mrs Moe) I would have had to pay $40 grand but healthcare providers readily accepted $12 grand from an insurance company. I don't see how anybody can justify this. If I have an extra Browns ticket gov regulates resale.(Something about face value etc) Yet Its ok for a heath care provider to charge me 3.333 times what they would accept from an insurance company? Someone asked me if I had a clue, and the answer is no. I guess I don't. What would have happened had I not been insured? I have 40 grand so I suppose I'd have to pay it. It would be a heck of a hardship on the financial picuture of a guy pushing retirement. I'm not sharp enough to know what big picture system is best but I'm smart enough to know when I'm being ripped off. Nobody not have to pay 3.33 times more than anybody else for the same service! I was commenting on a situation that even at my age I was unaware of/ thought about, until the birds nearly came home to roost. Hey! I never noticed those pidgeons until one pooped on me!
There needs to be a more equitable way than what we have now. Whether it's repairing what we have now. (Which I'd probably favor considering the.... if government ran it crime wouldn't pay factor but you don't see anybody proposing/ acting on. Why throw the baby out with the bath water? Politics!? Yep!.) Or the one payer type thing thats being proposed IMO something needs to be done. I used to think" freeloaders wanting something for nothing" but now I'm aware of how unreasonable this current system can be on hardworking folks. I don't want something for nothing I'm willing to pay but healthcare should not be some sort of preditory animal. We can do better than what we have.
BTW Thanks for your concern. We're good.

moe...just one more thing....I can't speak for other hospital systems...but when it comes to Group Practice.....The Cleveland Clinic is a NOT FOR PROFIT Organization.

So the price difference you speak of may very well be because of several things.

First and foremost....Volume. The Insurance companies pay out for Billions of healthcare costs. You would have been paying them once. Volume discounts are in every industry.

Secondly, it could also be a matter of you give us a break in the exam costs and we will give you a break in the liability premiums. What I do know is that $12,000 doesn't truely cover everything for your daughters procedure. Heck it costs well over several thousand just to flip the switch on the MRI and CT machines....

So this very well may be that the costs for the Insurance companies has been negotiated. And in that negotiations the costs are made up elsewhere, Whether from Federal sources, or as I said, in the premiums. I used to work on software that helped Hospital Systems calculate their reimbursement from the Federal Government. Similar to, but by no means exactly like, a tax return for us.

As I said...The Clinic is a not for profit institution. So if we sent a bill for 40G's...that is what it truely cost. Like I said, I can't speak for other institutions...But the Clinic is not for profit concerning "group practice". Which your daughters procedure falls under.

One problem facing hospital systems right now that will only get worse with socialized medicine is the unnecessary use of emergency vehicles. It is not widely known, but the resources for emergency action is severely overtaxed by unnecessary calls. There alot of people who do not have any insurance and use state and federal means to get free service from the emergency staff. Too often we are seeing 911 called and emergency staff sent for things like "my son has a cough" and quite a few non emergency situations. They tie up emergency resources. But the caller doesn't pay anything, and it costs the hospital $1000 to send an abulance. I am not sure what our costs per month are, but I know of another Hospital that is paying out over $3 million per MONTH. I would expect the Clinic to be higher based upon our size. Some of this is because the callers do not have transportation and they use the emergency resources as their transportation. And many don't even try to find other transportation because they know they can do it this way.

Have you noticed how many hospitals are shutting down or in trouble????? The healthcare Industry is attacked at every angle with someone, be it an insurance company, the government, companies, suppliers, or even the common person, looking for a way to stick it to the Hospital. If you were a business man looking to invest in the Healthcare Industry, you would never invest in a Hospital. You would invest in the research companies, the pharmacy companies, or the suppliers.

I used to be like you....Looking at some medical bills, I was furious at the cost of this or that. Especially things like aspirin or tylenol...LOL...Now I have seen the other side of things. I have seen the technology that we all take for granted. I have seen the policies that Hospitals are forced to implement. And that costs money too. I have since changed my tune a bit concerning those bills.

So it isn't that you are paying for the pills, you are paying for the expertise of the person administering the pills(whatever the pills may be) and the liability of the hospital in the administration of the pills. Like I said in an earlier post, I could be walking down the hallway and just look at a person wrong, and the Clinic is at risk for a lawsuit.

The problem is not usually the hospitals(hey there are good and bad just like anything else). It is the expectations of the people who want the the absolute best technology in the world at 3rd world prices. Companies would laugh at you if you told them that you wanted Panasonic's new 150 inch plasma screen for the same price of that old 13 inch black and white. Socialization of the healthcare industry would balloon the already out of control social spending of the government and completely eliminate the effectiveness of the most advanced medical technology the world has ever seen. The problem is the constant law suits that drive liability premuims and then health insurance premiums through the roof(and the only ones getting paid with these large settlements are the lawyers).

There are some things that could change the skyrocketing healthcare costs. tort reform is one of them....but just having the government foot the bill doesn't change anything for the better. The costs haven't changed. Just the method of paying for it. That money has to come from somewhere. I just hope everyone will like paying 60-70% in taxes and having to wait months for services needed now.

J/C

The primary reason for the growing costs of Healthcare can be attributed directly to our government.

The Laws of Economics states that when you "subsidize" something you get more of it right?.....exacly

So since the government gives our Health Cards and such to alot of folks....they get free medical care....so they "consume" more of it..because it is free

now looking at this bigger picture...since obviously the government doesn't pay these hospitals as much money as the Insurance companies and a private individual does plus now with the free health card folks get from the states means more people are going to the hospital now than in years past...hospitals had to do a few things

1. hire more staff because of increased hospital loads(thanks to free Health card)

2. charge Insurance companies and private individuals more money to cover the costs of increased patient workload, hiring more staff, and to cover the costs of procedures that the govt health card doesn't pay the hospitals as much money for an x-ray or what not as a private insurance company does

when you take all of this together.....hospitals and insurance compnaies have no choice...they have to pay their costs to stay open

the solution? simple....cut the Health card....you look at costs prioer to the Welfare system/Healthcard...you will see hospital bills and insurance were no where near as much...even if you factor in current Inflation...hospital costs would be almost 1/2 cheaper if they never instituted the Health Card

The government pays hospitals a "reduced cost" in comparison to the Real cost that Insurance companies and a private individual would pay(even the insurance companies bulk payment discount is more than what the government pays them) so in turn...more people go to the hospital for a sniffle nose because they get a free Healthcard

When something is free...you consume more of it...put a cost on it...people will consume less

Its simple it really is...Cut the freaking healthcard

why should YOU a tax paying american...be stuck paying for a healthcard for some Bum that doesn't want to get a job?

why should you pay for a healthcard for some teenage girl who gets pregnant for a kid? that isn't our problem...that is "their problem?

This country subsidizes having kids....quit giving welfare and Health cards to people who have kids that can't afford them and maybe we will see some changes here

We in America have the right to "The pursuit of Happiness"...that doesn't say the governement has to take care of you....

Some of the worst ideas in the world were done with the greatest intentions...Einsteins research was meant for Nuclear power...look what that turned into.....

I know it sounds Callous....but the only solution to this problem is to cut it...

the only people who should get governemt Health cards are

1. Elderly people 62 or older(Retired folks that payed into Social Security their whole lives)

2. Mentally retarded people

3.disabled folks or disabled Veterans(Im not talking about laughable disabilities...if you can walk and mow your lawn, your not disabled)

These could be achieved if they quit giving welfare to illegal mexicans, cuban refugees and others...they are not american citizens boot them the heck out of here!

that is the only solution to the problem

im sick of paying taxes....National Healthcare isn't the answer....30% of the population that works pays for the other 70%..that sucks!...cut these bums, force them to go get a job like everyone else...and work for their share...then we will see the changes that we need in our current healthcare system

too many people along for the ride that don't take their part....collecting a check and a healthcard...and don't pay nothing...not even taxes

So under your scenario then, "Every worker in America should be provided affordable health care" through their employer?

Or are you suggesting we have a guy making ten bucks an hour spending 100 dollars a week on health care?
( which is close to what a family health care policy THROUGH many employers costs NOW!)

After taxes and health care, that would leave him about $240 a week to raise his family. With a couple of kids? Almost half of that would go to groceries.

But hey, it's the "American way" right?

Pete I don't think I'm advocating the government footing the bill. Here's what Moe wants. I get a bill for forty grand that an insurance company would settle for 12 grand, the gov says, "Moe you pay your taxes and are good to the environment .We hardly ever see you in black socks and sandals so for being a good American we'll let you pay the same amount as the insurance company." I'm willing to pay but not more than the insurance company. I'm sure what your saying is true, but is it right? Is this the kind of flim flam system you really want? Start reform at one price for all. No more back room insurance company deals.With all the hokey pokey you describe nobody knows what it really costs. The first step to getting a handle on costs is to know what the true cost is. Say how much for leeches? No, not the marine leeches the human leeches?

But if the procedure is actually costing the Hospital 40K...why should they let you pay 12K like the insurance companies who may be making up the difference in another area? Especailly when the Insurance companies are paying for these things over a million times per month on a national scale and you are only paying once. Not only that, but the Insurance company is less likely to sue the hospital.

The fact of the matter is that the procedure cost $40,000. It is not like the Hospitals said oh...ok well we will just take a $28,000 loss on this because the procedure didn't really cost that much. The procedure really DID cost that much. That money is being made up in other areas.

I'm sorry, I wasn't trying to imply that you were suggesting Government control. I just know that there are many who are favoring that.

Pete That's were we differ I don't believe the actual cost is $40 grand and that healthcare providers are taking a $28 grand loss on every insured patient. Insurance companies have clout and constantly force providers to negotiage the cost. In response Health care providers set their prices high knowing they will have to come down to retain the core of their business. The providers intentionally over charge the uninsured because it's the best case senario for them. If the patient pays the inflated bill "jackpot" and if he does not, which I expect is more the norm, the provider writes the inflated uncollected cost off against his profits The unfortunates that get caught without insurance are the ones who get burned. It's all in the game. What would the providers say to the insurance companies if they simply let the uninsured pay the same rate as the negotiated scale? "Yeah we were ripping you off" What would the insurance company say "We want more reductions" so the little guy beat down goes on and on.
Who's right? You or me? Who knows? I'm a cynical old man that when money is involved expects people to try to take advantage of me. On the other hand maybe you've been drinking a tad too much health provider Kool Aid. Anyway I should thank you. You've changed my view. Now that I think about it. This system is so broken nobody can fix or will even try to fix it. So I'll vote for the gov to take it over. If that system is worse, I'll vote to change it back.

You mean Asprins don't cost 10 bucks each

J/C....

Two words: TORT REFORM

Either take away the ability to be sued for tens of millions of dollars ($250 Million jury award for the FIRST Viox case as I recall) or get reduced medical cost WITH A SIGNED WAIVER capping max liability. The risks need to be shared.

This has turned into a healthcare discussion...

ok my thoughts.

No matter how you slice it, the insured are paying for the uninsured. The current structure of the system is not acceptable. People without insurance go to emergency rooms rather than to an urgent care center or a doctor because they will receve care in the emergency room. Hospital charges are vastly overinflated to cover the uninsured and this results in a game between the carriers and hospitals. I know, I saw the first bill for an outpatient surgury of 20K, later the final bill was 5K. Hospitals are going out of business because they are obligated to provide care for those who do not have insurance.

So if you want to fix the healthcare system, you need to focus upon what makes it inefficient. This would include 1) Making sure that those who need care are provided care in the appropriate fashion 2) Making sure that the charges by a Hospital and covered by insurance are consistent. 3) Simplifying the paperwork nightmare that exists between insurance carriers and Hospitals. 4) Making sure that everyone is contributing to the health care costs (e.g. ending the WalMart scenario that is providing its employees with assistance to help them obtain government support, rather than paying them an appropriate wage) 5) Limiting the payouts of malpractice claims, or having guidelines for compensation that are rooted in reality. and 6) addressing diagnostic tests and proceedure that are done more for the documentation trail (in the event of malpractice) than for the need.

I don't have an opinion on if the Healthcare system should be private or government run. All I do know is that healthcare costs are consistently rising at a rate of 10 to 15 percent per year, whereas inflation is in the 3 to 4 percent range. So this cannot go on forever.

I agree with every word but where have you been? If you'd have posted this a page or so back you'd have saved me alot of typing.

The problem with your scenario is this.

NOT FOR PROFIT

They cannot charge you more than what it costs them to perform the procedure so there is no "Cha-Ching!!!!".

The differences in what the insurance companies pay are made up in other areas.

I understand the cynicism. Believe me, I do. Because I was there. It was not until I saw, in person, this side of things that I changed my tune.

The voting public was tired and has been tired for 8 years. Ecspecially the last stolen election. It obvious to me that the electoral college allows a candidate to apply strategy to there bid to be president. It doesnt matter about the popular vote. Seems strange to think that we live in a true democracy.

HBO did a wonderful documentary about this issue of voting; how an election could could be determined by two states in the eastern time zone (first time in history). Like most americans I dont expect many to watch something that would invade there apple pie red white and blue american spirit. But some of us still ask question and dont always believe what they see in the idiot box.

HACKING DEMOCRACY

I'd like every state to go to a system where you get one vote for winning a district and two for winning the state. Some states already do it this way and I think it would be a more true representation of what the public wants.