Dr. Kirk Milhoan, a pediatric cardiologist who leads the Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices, said a person’s right to refuse a vaccine outweighed concerns about illness or death from infectious diseases.
Offering a startlingly candid view into the philosophy guiding vaccine recommendations under the Trump administration, the leader of the federal panel that recommends vaccines for Americans said shots against polio and measles — and perhaps all diseases — should be optional, offered only in consultation with a clinician.
Dr. Kirk Milhoan, a pediatric cardiologist who is chair of the Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices, said that he did have “concerns” that some children might die of measles or become paralyzed with polio as a result of a choice not to vaccinate. But, he said, “I also am saddened when people die of alcoholic diseases,” adding, “Freedom of choice and bad health outcomes.”
In the case of an infectious disease, a personal choice to decline a vaccine may also affect others, including infants who are too young to be vaccinated or people who are immunocompromised. But a person’s right to reject a vaccine supersedes those risks, Dr. Milhoan said.
“If there is no choice, then informed consent is an illusion,” he said. “Without consent it is medical battery.”
The polio and measles vaccines are widely acknowledged as staggering successes in public health, credited with preventing disability and millions of deaths worldwide. The polio vaccine in particular has strong bipartisan support, including from President Trump and some Republican lawmakers, who have invoked the horrific time before the vaccine was available.
But Dr. Milhoan said that making the vaccines optional, rather than requiring them for entry into public schools nationwide, as is now the case, would ultimately restore trust in public health.
Outside experts had sharp words for Dr. Milhoan, saying the changes in vaccine policy he was suggesting would result in unnecessary deaths among children.
“He has no idea what he’s talking about,” said Dr. Sean O’Leary, chair of the infectious disease committee at the American Academy of Pediatrics.
“These vaccines protect children and save lives,” Dr. O’Leary said. “It’s very frustrating for those of us who spend our careers trying to do what we can to improve the health of children to see harm coming to children because of an ideological agenda not grounded in science.”
Dr. Milhoan outlined some of his views in an episode of the podcast “Why Should I Trust You?” that aired on Thursday. In the podcast, he said polio and measles were not the threat they once were in the United States because of improvements in medicine and sanitation, rather than the vaccines alone, echoing comments by Health Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr. He described himself as “pulling back the curtain” on the risks of vaccines.
In a series of text messages later on Thursday and Friday, he elaborated on his view that personal autonomy was paramount. The vaccine committee may “not necessarily” recommend that all vaccines be optional, he added, but it is charged with “re-evaluating all of the vaccine products including risks and benefits” and may make significant changes to the roster of childhood vaccines over the coming year.
Any changes the committee makes would add to a significant reshaping of the vaccination schedule announced this month by federal health officials. Bypassing the process that the committee has long followed for vaccine recommendations, Mr. Kennedy and his appointees debuted a schedule that reduces the number of recommended immunizations to 11 from 17, and advises that the six vaccines that were dropped should now be administered only under “shared clinical decision making” — that is, after consultation with a health care provider.
A spokesman for the Department of Health and Human Services declined to comment on Dr. Milhoan’s views.
So far, states and insurance companies are continuing to follow the previous vaccination schedule, which is still endorsed by the American Academy of Pediatrics and other medical organizations. All 50 states and the District of Columbia require children to be vaccinated against most of the 17 diseases to attend public schools.
Children can be exempted from the shots for medical or other reasons. Still, requiring routine shots for school entry is “heavy handed” and “authoritarian,” Dr. Milhoan said on the podcast. “What we are doing is returning individual autonomy to the first order — not public health but individual autonomy to the first order,” he added.
Dr. Helen Chu, a vaccine expert at the University of Washington in Seattle and a former A.C.I.P. member, said the entire premise of a conflict between individual choice and public health was false.
“It is true that vaccinated people are less likely to infect others, but the primary reason to receive a vaccine is to protect yourself,” she said.
Noel Brewer, a vaccine expert and previous member of the committee, said Dr. Milhoan seemed to misunderstand the purpose of the vaccine committee.
“A.C.I.P. makes recommendations for what is best for the whole population,” Dr. Brewer said. As for individual autonomy, all vaccines are already delivered with patient consent, he noted.
“For me, autonomy means being able to have my children go to the grocery store or go to preschool and not be stalked by a vaccine-preventable disease that will kill them,” he added. “Ensuring high uptake of vaccines through school-entry requirements protects my child and other children.”
Dr. Milhoan seemed to approach the committee’s work from his perspective as a medical doctor, rather than as a champion of public health, said Dr. Mark Abdelmalek, a surgeon and co-host of the podcast.
During the wide-ranging interview, Dr. Milhoan also claimed he had seen data that suggested “a very large death signal in children” from the Covid vaccine, referring to at least 10 deaths that the Food and Drug Administration is investigating but has not yet made public. He said there were emerging concerns that repeatedly stimulating the immune system with multiple vaccines might increase the risk of allergies, asthma and eczema.
Large studies have dismissed that claim, but Dr. Milhoan said he trusted his own observations over what “established science” might suggest about vaccines.
“He views the vaccines as the threat,” Dr. Abdelmalek said.
How does the "inmates are running the asylum" make sense??
RFK and HHS just reapproved both polio and measles to be continued in the immunization schedule.
Seems like a lot of snowflakes melting over nothing.
Originally Posted by FATE
How does the "inmates are running the asylum" make sense??
RFK and HHS just reapproved both polio and measles to be continued in the immunization schedule.
Seems like a lot of snowflakes melting over nothing.
These liberal idiots get their panties in a bunch and hair on fire with each and every decision made or when strength is being used in negotiations. They are weak people and hate watching someone show strength. It is really pathetic.
"The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other peoples' money." Margarat Thatcher
How does the "inmates are running the asylum" make sense??
RFK and HHS just reapproved both polio and measles to be continued in the immunization schedule.
Seems like a lot of snowflakes melting over nothing.
Originally Posted by FATE
How does the "inmates are running the asylum" make sense??
RFK and HHS just reapproved both polio and measles to be continued in the immunization schedule.
Seems like a lot of snowflakes melting over nothing.
These liberal idiots get their panties in a bunch and hair on fire with each and every decision made or when strength is being used in negotiations. They are weak people and hate watching someone show strength. It is really pathetic.
Reading you pretending to be a tough guy is what's pathetic.
Keyboard commandos are a dime a dozen.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
This is the man RFK Jr. himself appointed to lead the Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices. I know in trumplandia they pretend the things he says means nothing in their feeble attempt to dismiss it. Pay attention.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
Just to recap two conversations - one from this thread and one from another.
1. Illegal immigrants commit crime at a lower rate than US citizens, but there is outrage and examples of a handful (2 or was it 3) women were raped by illegal immigrants. Somehow it was presented that being raped by an illegal immigrant was worse than being raped by a US citizen because it was claimed it was 'easily preventable'.
2. RFK instigates a new policy on vaccines (because despite established science, RFK is a known anti-vaccer) whereby many eminent professionals in the field state children will die as a result of the policy. I guess you could suggest the experts are arguing that these deaths are easily preventable by virtue of simply not introducing the new policy .... And the reaction is to claim that outspoken criticism of the policy is 'Snoweflakery'.
Something doesn't seem to add up.
Last edited by mgh888; 01/24/2609:46 AM.
The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.
That's the only weak azz BS they have. If they don't like what you have to say or refuse to admit the gravity of it, they claim you're the weak one. Often times they'll just call it "fake news" or "liberal media bias" to avoid it all together.
And in the middle of all of it, we have an inciteful idiot in the White House and when you post his idiocy or bring these things up they dodge what he did or said and somehow that's a problem with you because you have TDS.
They sound like they're 10. My apologies in advance to all 10 year olds.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
Just to recap two conversations - one from this thread and one from another.
1. Illegal immigrants commit crime at a lower rate than US citizens, but there is outrage and examples of a handful (2 or was it 3) women were raped by illegal immigrants. Somehow it was presented that being raped by an illegal immigrant was worse than being raped by a US citizen because it was claimed it was 'easily preventable'.
2. RFK instigates a new policy on vaccines (because despite established science, RFK is a known anti-vaccer) whereby many eminent professionals in the field state children will die as a result of the policy. I guess you could suggest the experts are arguing that these deaths are easily preventable by virtue of simply not introducing the new policy .... And the reaction is to claim that outspoken criticism of the policy is 'Snoweflakery'.
Something doesn't seem to add up.
You're skipping the part where there is no new policy based on this report.
You're creating a strawman based on:
1. Illegal alien rapes and murders - FACTS that have already had an effect. 2. Someone questions vaccines - Fairytale b.s. based on not liking someone's opinion.
You've always proposed some really bizarre talking points; you've been in skipping your meds territory as of late. Are you okay?
You are skipping the fact that RFK Jr. himself appointed several anti vaxxers including the man who leads the Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices and pretending that isn't an issue and that the words he says has no meaning or bearing on anything. Appointing people to that committee that are already known to be against vaccines is an issue.
Speaking of someone skipping their meds.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
I'm not skipping anything. You and yours have a ten-year history of predicting doom and gloom that never comes to pass.
This is nothing more than another episode of the same.
Step 1: Tell us all how catastrophic something is based on how catastrophic it may one day be. No receipts, nothing more than opinion to back up your case. Step 2: Hide in the bushes and act like you never said anything when it doesn't come to pass. Step 2b (optional): Rewrite history or plant a hindsight strawman to change the original argument.
I'm not skipping anything. You and yours have a ten-year history of predicting doom and gloom that never comes to pass.
This is nothing more than another episode of the same.
Step 1: Tell us all how catastrophic something is based on how catastrophic it may one day be. No receipts, nothing more than opinion to back up your case. Step 2: Hide in the bushes and act like you never said anything when it doesn't come to pass. Step 2b (optional): Rewrite history or plant a hindsight strawman to change the original argument.
Wash, rinse, repeat.
At DT, context and meaning are a scarecrow kicking at moving goalposts.
Remember during hearings jfk Jr said doesn't think anyone should take medical advice from him. And Republicans decided to approve his nomination. Only the best!
Just because you ignore how true things become doesn't change that they do.
But let me guess, after posted warnings about how much project 2025 would be a significant part of this administration you deny how many people directly connected to project 2025 are a part of this administration? You deny that many of the policies trump has supported and imposed by executive order aren't some of the exact things we said he would do?
Just because you sit back with your fingers in your ears yelling la, la, la, la, la, la so you can't hear anything doesn't mean it isn't happening. It's not my fault you keep making excuses for it and somehow blame the other side for it. Same as it ever was.......
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
Remember during hearings jfk Jr said doesn't think anyone should take medical advice from him. And Republicans decided to approve his nomination. Only the best!
Thanks for brining that up.
During a May 2025 appearance before the House Appropriations Committee, Health and Human Services Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr. was asked if he would vaccinate a child for measles and responded that he “probably” would, then immediately added that he did not think people should be taking medical advice from him and that his opinions on vaccines were “irrelevant.”
It is nice to see a person openly admit they are not qualified to do the job they've been given. That's usually the point at which most people would be fired from that job.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
It is nice to see a person openly admit they are not qualified to do the job they've been given. That's usually the point at which most people would be fired from that job.
It is nice to see a person openly admit they are not qualified to do the job they've been given. That's usually the point at which most people would be fired from that job.
It is nice to see a person openly admit they are not qualified to do the job they've been given. That's usually the point at which most people would be fired from that job.
and republicans gave him the job!
Except that he wasn't hired to be a doctor.
ReAdInG Is HaRd!
The past 20 secretaries.....
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (2025–present) Previous job: Environmental lawyer, activist, and founder of Children's Health Defense. Doctor? No (has DC degree, not MD).
Xavier Becerra (2021–2025) Previous job: Attorney General of California. Doctor? No.
Alex Azar (2018–2021) Previous job: President of Eli Lilly and Company (pharma executive). Doctor? No.
Tom Price (2017) Previous job: U.S. Representative from Georgia (and orthopedic surgeon earlier in career). Doctor? Yes (MD, orthopedic surgeon).
Sylvia Mathews Burwell (2014–2017) Previous job: President of the Walmart Foundation. Doctor? No.
Kathleen Sebelius (2009–2014) Previous job: Governor of Kansas. Doctor? No.
Mike Leavitt (2005–2009) Previous job: Governor of Utah. Doctor? No.
Tommy Thompson (2001–2005) Previous job: Governor of Wisconsin. Doctor? No.
Donna Shalala (1993–2001) Previous job: President of the University of Miami (previously chancellor and professor). Doctor? No (PhD in political science).
Louis W. Sullivan (1989–1993) Previous job: Founding dean and president of Morehouse School of Medicine. Doctor? Yes (MD, physician and hematologist).
Otis Bowen (1985–1989) Previous job: Governor of Indiana (previously practicing physician). Doctor? Yes (MD, family physician).
Margaret Heckler (1983–1985) Previous job: U.S. Representative from Massachusetts. Doctor? No.
Richard Schweiker (1981–1983) Previous job: U.S. Senator from Pennsylvania. Doctor? No.
Patricia Roberts Harris (1980–1981; continued from HEW role) Previous job: Secretary of Housing and Urban Development (and earlier Ambassador). Doctor? No (lawyer).
Joseph A. Califano Jr. (1977–1979; HEW) Previous job: Senior White House aide and lawyer in private practice. Doctor? No.
F. David Mathews (1975–1977; HEW) Previous job: President of the University of Alabama. Doctor? No (PhD in education).
Caspar Weinberger (1973–1975; HEW) Previous job: Director of the Office of Management and Budget. Doctor? No (lawyer).
Elliot Richardson (1970–1973; HEW) Previous job: Under Secretary of State (and earlier Attorney General of Massachusetts). Doctor? No (lawyer).
Robert Finch (1969–1970; HEW) Previous job: Lieutenant Governor of California. Doctor? No (lawyer).
Wilbur J. Cohen (1968–1969; HEW) Previous job: Under Secretary of HEW (longtime social welfare expert and academic). Doctor? No (no medical degree; social policy expert).
At DT, context and meaning are a scarecrow kicking at moving goalposts.
Secretary of the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services.
So being in charge of the department that actually hands out health and vaccine guidelines doesn't require someone you should be able to take "medical advice" from?
Where did anyone say he needed to be a doctor? Here is a hint. Nobody is this conversation did. But you certainly need someone that doesn't deny the science and is qualified to give proper and trustworthy health avdice and guidelines based on science and doctors.
I guess ReAdInG Is HaRd!
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
No dude, I would rather stare at that terrible list from above and follow broken protocol. Afterall, who can argue with this:
Life Expectancy US life expectancy fell from 78.8 years pre-pandemic to around 78.6 years recently, marking three consecutive years of decline—the worst streak since World War I. Projections indicate a modest rise to 80.4 years by 2050, but the global ranking will drop from 49th in 2022 to 66th among 204 countries, due to slower gains compared to peers.
Obesity Rates Over 70% of US adults are overweight, with 36-42% obese—rates far exceeding most high-income countries and driving higher death risks from related factors. Obesity is forecasted to affect over 260 million Americans by 2050, fueling a "public health crisis" by exacerbating chronic conditions.
Chronic Diseases Key drivers include rising Type 2 diabetes, cardiovascular disease, hypertension, and high blood sugar, with obesity amplifying these; addressing them could avert 12.4 million deaths by 2050. US rankings in health-adjusted life expectancy (HALE) are also slipping, projected to fall to 108th globally by 2050
*Wondering to myself... should I really pay attention to actual facts and stats from the past or just rely on Pit@dawgtalker's predictions for the future? Tough call.
*Wondering to myself... should I really pay attention to actual facts and stats from the past or just rely on Pit@dawgtalker's predictions for the future? Tough call.
At DT, context and meaning are a scarecrow kicking at moving goalposts.
I would love to know what any of that has to do with anything I posted? Where did I predict the future. If you keep taking those long walks off of short piers you'll end up drowning.
We are talking about vaccines here. We are talking about the very man who was appointed to run the Secretary of the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services admitting you shouldn't take medical advice from him. He's the one who said that and not Pit@dawgtalker's. And what predictions did I make about the future in regards to this topic?
"Unprecedented threat": Six former surgeons general sound alarm on RFK Jr.
But you just keep on yammering stupid BS. You think you're arguing with me. The reality is you're arguing with six former Surgeon Generals. You know, actual experts that know what they talking about instead of FATE@Dawgtalkers.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
No, we are so far removed that not many remember how terrible a disease polio actually is. If you survive, you will be lucky to not be disfigured or crippled.
That should be enough, but if I was an insurance company, I would not take on any individual that did not get the vaccine.
Welcome back, Joe, we missed you!…. That did not age well.
"proposed change" instead of "actual policy change".
In response to the proposed change - people objecting to the proposal because it will result in increased child deaths is "snowflakery" - but claiming someone being raped by a US citizen is better than being raped by an illegal immigrant is somehow a solid argument? We'll even set aside your ridiculous comment that it was "easily preventable".
And it's simple math - like before which I know is clearly hard for you to grasp.
If more kids don't get vaccinated it will lead to deaths. That's not a fairytale because it hasn't happened yet - it's the inevitable consequence if the proposal goes through. Because it hasn't happened yet - it does not mean you cannot predict the outcome.
To use a different analogy - if the proposal was to make seat belts optional in cars. People would rightly point out that more deaths would result - and your argument is to claim this evidence based, factual forecast is a fairytale because the deaths haven't happened yet.
The effectiveness of vaccines is not an opinion as you claim - it is observable and fact based.
But you and your support act can carry on with your same old song and dance denying and deflecting and making up stuff. It's what fanboys do.
The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.
But it has happened. I guess not enough unvaccinated children have died to move the needle for them................
This marks the third death in the United States this year in patients with measles, with two fatalities confirmed in Texas children and one suspected death in an adult from New Mexico. All three patients were unvaccinated against the virus, and the patients were linked to the growing West Texas outbreak, where at least 481 cases have been confirmed and 56 patients have been hospitalized.
Both measles and polio vaccines remain in the top tier: "Immunizations Recommended for All Children." This means the CDC strongly advises them universally, same as before.
Changes made by RFK include Hep A/B, rotavirus, COVID, flu, and meningococcal being shifted to shared decision‑making. Now I know you probably feel like babies should get an annual flu/COVID, starting at 6 months, but a lot of parents and doctors feel it is important for children to build an immune system.
Don't worry, we're still jabbing kids 20-25 times before the age of three.
I know it's no fun to discuss facts when it's hard to express outrage over them; but the crazy predictions for the future are a bit out of hand. 🤣
It's every subject, every thread, every interaction. BADboy just started a new one about how Trump is going to take over elections and the ICE operations are all just to practice taking over cities. Think about that for a minute.
I'm just wondering why you think it's odd that we have a man as president that says and does crazy things wouldn't make people question what crazy things he may do next? I mean if you predicted some of the things he's actually done before he did them people would be calling you the crazy one. Kind of like you are doing here.
Vaccine research funds have been cut. The head of the vaccine advisory board claimed vaccines should be voluntary. Why wouldn't you understand the direction all of this is heading? People listen when these "so called" experts talk. It's the kind of talk that has helped lead the decrease in vaccination rates.................
Across the U.S., Childhood Vaccination Rates Continue to Decline
I understand people and even some, although a very small minority of doctors "feel" a certain type of way. Yet that doesn't in any way change the results gained by vaccinations.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
I'm just wondering why you think it's odd that we have a man as president that says and does crazy things wouldn't make people question what crazy things he may do next? I mean if you predicted some of the things he's actually done before he did them people would be calling you the crazy one. Kind of like you are doing here.
Vaccine research funds have been cut. The head of the vaccine advisory board claimed vaccines should be voluntary. Why wouldn't you understand the direction all of this is heading? People listen when these "so called" experts talk. It's the kind of talk that has helped lead the decrease in vaccination rates.................
Across the U.S., Childhood Vaccination Rates Continue to Decline
I understand people and even some, although a very small minority of doctors "feel" a certain type of way. Yet that doesn't in any way change the results gained by vaccinations.
Vaccine research funds have been cut? Care to elaborate?
The vaccine committee may “not necessarily” recommend that all vaccines be optional, he added, but it is charged with “re-evaluating all of the vaccine products including risks and benefits” and may make significant changes to the roster of childhood vaccines over the coming year.
Sounds nothing like this:
Originally Posted by PitDAWG
The head of the vaccine advisory board claimed vaccines should be voluntary.
Milhoan rejected decades of established epidemiological research. “I don’t like established science," he said. "Science is what I observe.”
“What we are doing is returning individual autonomy to the first order, not public health, but individual autonomy to the first order.” He made several controversial statements, receiving quick pushback online.
Milhoan suggests that “trust” in public health would be restored if the immunizations were voluntary.
While emphasizing freedom and autonomy in decision-making, Milhoan said, “I also am saddened when people die of alcoholic diseases.” But here he is missing that opting out of vaccines puts others around them in danger — more akin to drunk driving than an individual dying of alcoholism.
One of Milhoan’s arguments against polio vaccination is that “we are in a different time now than we were then. Our sanitation is different, our risk of disease is different, and so those all play into the evaluation of whether this is worthwhile of taking a risk for a vaccine or not.”
Similarly, Milhoan argues that because “we take care of children much differently now,” the risks of measles might have lessened.
Milhoan suggests eliminating polio and measles vaccines as an opportunity for observation. “What we’re going to have is a real-world experience of when unvaccinated people get measles,” he said, asking, “What is the new incidence of hospitalization? What’s the incidence of death?”
Thanks for aptly pointing out what it looks like when a Kennedy appointee speaks out both sides of his mouth. What he will or won't say on any given day may very well depended on which way the wind is blowing.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
It is nice to see a person openly admit they are not qualified to do the job they've been given. That's usually the point at which most people would be fired from that job.
and republicans gave him the job!
Except that he wasn't hired to be a doctor.
ReAdInG Is HaRd!
I had to have AI help me out with this, but I learned something interesting today.
The vast majority of HHS secretaries do NOT have clinical experience of any kind. Most are lawyers/politicians. Honestly, I wasn't expecting that. I thought RFK's resume made him a poor candidate for his current position (and I'd still argue it does), but it doesn't appear to break significantly with precedent.
"I'll take your word at face value. I have never met you but I assume you have a face..lol"
The vaccine committee may “not necessarily” recommend that all vaccines be optional, he added, but it is charged with “re-evaluating all of the vaccine products including risks and benefits” and may make significant changes to the roster of childhood vaccines over the coming year.
Sounds nothing like this:
Originally Posted by PitDAWG
The head of the vaccine advisory board claimed vaccines should be voluntary.
Now you're being willfully ignorant. RFK Jr has a pretty consistent track record to saying vaccines should be voluntary. I'll put it this way... I wish more politicians were as transparent as he has been on this.
"I'll take your word at face value. I have never met you but I assume you have a face..lol"
I stated exactly what the man said. And I stated exactly what his job is. Not only that, RFK Jr. fired many people on that advisory board and appointed anti vaxxers to take their place including this guy. I'd say anyone trying to be willfully ignorant would try to deny that.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
The vaccine committee may “not necessarily” recommend that all vaccines be optional, he added, but it is charged with “re-evaluating all of the vaccine products including risks and benefits” and may make significant changes to the roster of childhood vaccines over the coming year.
Sounds nothing like this:
Originally Posted by PitDAWG
The head of the vaccine advisory board claimed vaccines should be voluntary.
Now you're being willfully ignorant. RFK Jr has a pretty consistent track record to saying vaccines should be voluntary. I'll put it this way... I wish more politicians were as transparent as he has been on this.
To be clear, those weren't RFK's words, those were the words of the advisor. I wouldn't call anything willful ignorance when I'm merely pointing out the difference between what someone said, and what Pit said he said. If you read the statements again, I don't see how you would disagree that there is a distinct difference.
Anyway, not trying to defend the position, just pointing out that we (all) have a bad habit of twisting words. Knowing that we live in a SM headline world, the real "willful ignorance" is in acting like the "twisting" makes no difference. JMO
We all tend to lose "scope" when we look at all these hot-button issues. I have no idea how RFK's tenure will work out and I'm certainly aware of the dangers of demonizing vaccines.
However, sometimes I'm a little confused at how people don't pay attention to the words that come out of their own mouths. Things like "a bunch of kids have measles and none of them are vaccinated" sounds more like natural selection, and a glaring endorsement for those on the fence to make the right choice, than a public emergency. If the vaccinated aren't getting sick, aren't the vaccines their own proof of the stupidity at hand? Seems like every one of these stories is an ad for vaccination, not the opposite.
Second, this environment was spawned by the events that created distrust in the first place. Do you think parents' fears weren't baseless when dose count rose 3x from 1980 to the early 2000's? I was there. I delayed two of my kids' "inoculations" when the first one got sick. I'm asking my pediatrician why it's necessary for so many jabs as a baby... "it's better to get it over with, he'll need all these before kindergarten". Well, that sounds grounded in science.
Here - read the following. Keep in mind, there were some landmark episodes on 60 Minutes and 20/20 during this period. Those were the "shows" we all trusted. And again, I'm just peeling back the layers of how we got here:
Quote
From 1980 to the early 2000s, how were doctors encouraged to push the vaccines?
From 1980 into the early 2000s, doctors were encouraged to push vaccines mainly through payment structures, performance bonuses, professional guidelines, and pharma‑driven education/marketing, not just one simple “kickback” mechanism.
1. Payment and bonus incentives Fee‑for‑service reimbursement: Doctors were paid a visit fee plus a separate administration fee for each shot, so vaccination was a billable service that helped keep pediatric practices financially afloat. Bonuses tied to coverage rates: Experiments and programs in the 1980s–1990s paid doctors more if a high percentage of their patient panel was “up to date” on shots. In a 60‑physician inner‑city study, a cash bonus for higher childhood coverage increased “up‑to‑date” vaccination documentation by about 25 percentage points versus no‑bonus controls. Performance‑based pay in pilots: Similar incentive schemes for influenza shots in older adults offered small per‑shot bonuses (for example, an extra $0.80–$1.60 per flu shot if the practice hit 70–80% coverage), producing roughly a 7 percentage‑point improvement in vaccination rates.
Medicaid/HMO quality metrics: By the late 1990s, many Medicaid plans and HMOs linked bonuses or higher reimbursement to pediatric “quality measures,” including childhood immunization rates. This encouraged practices to chase coverage targets. 2. Professional guidelines and liability climate CDC/AAP schedules as the “standard of care”: As the schedule expanded in the 1980s–2000s, CDC and the American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) recommendations became the benchmark; not following them exposed doctors to malpractice risk if a child later caught a preventable disease. Vaccine Injury Compensation Act (1986): This created a no‑fault system for vaccine injury payouts and largely shielded manufacturers from direct lawsuits, but it also reassured pediatricians that following the schedule was officially endorsed and backed by federal policy. Medical boards and malpractice insurers implicitly pushed adherence: deviating from the schedule without strong reason could look negligent if something went wrong.
3. Pharma marketing and “education” to clinicians Heavy detailing to pediatricians: Companies like Merck, Wyeth, GlaxoSmithKline used reps, “lunch‑and‑learn” visits, and sponsored CME (continuing medical education) to emphasize disease burden and benefits of new vaccines (e.g., Hib, PCV7, varicella, later HPV).
Strategy: get on the CDC schedule: Internal industry analysis stressed that the real commercial win was getting a product embedded in the CDC/AAP childhood schedule, because that drove insurance coverage, school requirements, and physician uptake. Messaging around thimerosal and safety: Documents and reporting on Merck’s hepatitis B vaccine show how the company tried to manage concerns over mercury‑based preservative (thimerosal) while continuing to sell old stock, feeding the perception that marketing overrode caution. 4. Government/public health campaigns “Vaccines for Children” (VFC) program, 1994: Federally funded free vaccines for poor/uninsured kids made it easy for pediatricians to vaccinate without arguing about cost; clinics were expected to hit high coverage as part of public health goals. Targets and report cards: State and local health departments tracked immunization rates and sometimes publicly compared or audited clinics, adding reputational pressure to meet CDC goals. Public messaging: Campaigns against measles, pertussis, Hib meningitis framed vaccination as a civic duty; doctors were both audience and messengers.
5. How this felt to parents By the early 2000s, the number of recommended doses in the first years of life had roughly tripled compared with the early 1980s, at the same time that bonuses, quality metrics, and pharma marketing were all pushing in the same direction (more on‑time jabs).
Parents saw doctors strongly insisting on full, on‑time schedules, often tied to school/daycare forms, and heard only faintly about the financial and institutional incentives behind that push, which fed the sense that “Big Pharma + government” were aligned and overdoing it.
In short, from 1980 to the early 2000s, doctors were nudged toward aggressive vaccination mainly by modest financial bonuses and reimbursement structures, alignment of guidelines with malpractice risk, and sustained pharma and public‑health messaging—rather than simple under‑the‑table kickbacks—but the cumulative effect looked to many parents like a hard, one‑way push.
There were many parents (including myself) that thought if these companies had their way, they would turn our kids into bonafide "Guinea pigs". This is what spawned the entire movement.
I will just tell you what our physician told us when my daughter was born. He said that the longer we delay the vaccines the longer we were leaving our child open to getting every disease and illness those vaccines protect them against. He also told us that very young children, babies and the elderly are all much more susceptible to serious illness and death from the very things vaccination will help protect them from and prevent.
I get asking those questions because I did. I think it's even worse today. Every time you watch a show on TV you're inundated with prescription drug commercials. They always have something they want to convince you that you have and convince you they have the perfect thing for what ails you.
That's why, just like you, I had similar questions to the ones you most likely asked.
I found that as per usual there are no one size fits all answers and that common sense combined with science dictated I get my daughter immunized as per scheduled. But I didn't just want to hear "What I felt and what I believed" from government officials that would further risk the life and or health of my child because I didn't know any better and thought everything was a conspiracy.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
Let me preface this first part by saying that I understood the post I quoted to mean that RFK Jr's/advisor's recent actions as head of DHS doesn't necessarily equate to him saying vaccines should be optional. If I have misunderstood your post, then I apologize.
But if I do have that right, then I gotta double-down. I sincerely don't understand the point of the argument when both RFK and the dude he put at the head of the vaccine board have such a consistent stance on vaccines. RFK has gone on the record multiple times and stated vaccines should be optional, and I don't think it's a coincidence that the guy he picked to head the vaccine board takes the same stance.
As for your follow-up, I agree with you. It is easy to twist words and jump to conclusions. Just right there above, I missed that you were talking about the advisor and not RFK. Also, I have strong and mixed feeling regarding the bullet points you posted (I work in the medical device industry). I will say, the 'climate of liability' part is something I think most can agree with.
"I'll take your word at face value. I have never met you but I assume you have a face..lol"
