DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Palus Politicus Post office complicit in plans to deny millions of mail in ballots

No doubt the regulars will tell you there is nothing to see here:



Something to watch and be aware of. Get ready for months and months of legal wrangling to prevent the midterm elections being called.

[Steiner] "has moved forward with what can be described as a rushed, chaotic ballot tracking system, eliminating standard and needed testing and therefor creating a substantial risk for failure of the system that could derail the midterm election."

That's a lot and it's pretty ambiguous, but I'll keep my eyes peeled.


For the sake of receipts, since everybody acts like they have some before they even leave the store nowadays; please post this bloke's response when it doesn't happen.

I'll bet you $20 and a pint of Guinness he doesn't have one. He'll have nothing more than more "jiggery-pokery".

I wonder what the over and under is on how many court cases will be filed to dispute the outcomes of the election results this time around?

I bet it will be yugea!

Federal judge considers whether to extend ban against US Postal Service mail voting changes

BOSTON (AP) — A federal judge in Boston said Thursday the U.S. Postal Service has told her nothing about how it would implement a plan to regulate mail ballots for the midterms as she considers whether to let the plan proceed in the weeks before Election Day.

U.S. District Court Judge Indira Talwani is deciding whether to extend her prohibition on the proposed regulation of mail ballots, an effort undertaken as part of an executive order by President Donald Trump. The hearing in the closely watched case came a day before the first state begins sending mail ballots to voters.

“We are 70 days from the election and I have nothing from the USPS about how this will happen,” Talwani told Michael Velchik, the Justice Department lawyer representing the Postal Service.

Last week, Talwani imposed a 14-day temporary restraining order to keep it from being used. That order expires next week as more states begin sending out mail ballots. Velchik said the administration will most likely go to the Supreme Court by the end of the week to seek permission to resume implementing the plan.

Talwani has been here before. In June, she prohibited the administration from implementing Trump’s order for the November election, ruling the changes came too close to voting for the federal government to embark on such a project.

But the Supreme Court late last month ruled that Talwani’s order was premature because the Postal Service had not yet published regulations governing how it would apply Trump’s order. The agency did so just before the high court ruling came down, prompting Democrats and voting rights groups to swiftly re-file their lawsuits.

They counter that the president has no authority to set election rules, which is a power designated in the Constitution to the states and in some cases Congress.

They won an initial victory with Talwani’s restraining order, which has already been appealed by the administration.

Trump has long opposed mail voting and falsely blamed it for his 2020 election loss to Democrat Joe Biden, even though he often uses that method to cast his own ballot.

Election officials say there’s simply no way they can comply with the Postal Service directives, which could require a complete overhaul of their operations. Before it delivers mail ballots for any state, the Postal Service would have to approve the design of the envelopes that contain them and have the state upload a list of voters receiving them to an online portal.

Some ballots have already gone out. A few municipalities in Wisconsin opted to send mail ballots to voters earlier this week, but Friday marks the full kickoff of voting as North Carolina starts shipping its mail ballots to all voters who requested them.

The administration has contended the changes are relatively minor and legal. But the portal was still not active this week, and most election offices have already printed their envelopes and ballots.

Velchik told Talwani that the federal government is offering states the choice to opt into the system. But the Postal Service has yet to identify a single state that has done so.

A whistleblower report made public this week warns that the postal system’s requirements could lead to millions of mail ballots never being sent. The new rule requires all ballots to be physically brought to post offices before being mailed to voters, but if a single one’s bar code registers an error, the whole batch gets thrown out, even if it contains tens of thousands of legitimate ballots.

https://apnews.com/article/trump-ma...lawsuit-63899f738d28d161b629054a314f161a

So one side thinks we have a king who can change our laws by decree. It's all the rage these days.

I've got an idea... let's get back to election methods that weren't broken and stop bulk-mailing millions of ballots to people that didn't even request them.

The current election methods are working and aren't broken. Just making some #triggered #snowflake claims to the contrary despite all evidence gathered showing it's not broken and working just fine now doesn't matter. "But we don't feel like that's true" isn't a valid reason to upend the current election process.

Nobody seemed to have an issue with it until trump opened his mouth.

I'm a triggered snowflake because I have an opinion?

Do you ever wonder why you don't have any friends?

What opinion did you share and what did you base your opinion on? You made a general statement without any context. But in general, this is the exact same thing trumpians claim about every democrat that complains about anything trump does. Haven't you been paying attention?

It's either call them triggered snowflakes or claim they have TDS because they can't defend his actions. Or what responsibe people like yourself used to call deflection.

They'll call us #triggered #snowflakes and then whine about Jimmy Kimmel and trump even lobbies to have him taken off the air. They'll then boycott Jelly Roll for telling some trump jokes as a guest host of Kimmel's show. They'll curse and scream about Alan Ritchson who they loved as Reacher until he said negative things about trump. They did as far back as boycotting The Dixie Chicks.

Maybe if you actually tried laying out why you think our current election methods aren't working besides "Because we don't believe it" you would have grounds to dispute what I posted. Just postiing a singe statement about "How you feel" about something is not an opinion.

I'm all for hearing your opinion. But some blanket statement with no context or grounds is, as you know yourself, not an actual opinion.

When I said "I've got an idea" the following opinion was a dead-giveaway.

Yeah, I can't even read the rest of that mess... Jelly donuts, reacher, dixie chicks, blah, blah, blah.

EVERY TIME I unclick ignore. I have no idea why I'm so slow to learn.


You can have back your one-man echo chamber. One of your pets will come along soon and you can talk about "crickets".

You're not talking to me, but 'triggered snowflake' is a bit much, IMO. Your opinion is the sole thing that props up your argument of 'broken election systems' which has been debunked time and time again, however.

I have an argument of broken election systems?

Nope. Never said that. You're implying that because I have a differing opinion and everyone must be typecast for each opinion.

But if you want a broken election system and compromised elections... keep mailing out tens of millions of ballots unsolicited.

My whole point is that it makes no sense whatsoever.


You know how many hoops you have to jump through to get married, to get a license, to buy a house, to get a job? Hell, you jump through waaay more hoops to buy a pair of shoes.

But "the powers that be" have painted some picture that it is sooo hard for some people to vote... and if we don't make it the easiest thing in the world, well, then we're racist and cheating people out of the privilege of voting.


Fine, then make them make one click of a button to REQUEST a ballot be mailed to them.

Is this really that hard? Is it really that hard to understand how someone may have that opinion?

I understand that when someone actually adds context to help explain something that seems to trouble you.

So since you once again have no legitimate rebuttal you resort to your usual nothingness and blame me for it. It's the trumpian game plan.

The problem is you know you didn't actually post an opinion. Instead you posted a one sentence statement reply indicating you bolster some already debunked nonsense with zero context.


You seemed confused or needing an explanation about my use of #triggered #snowflake so I explained it to you. As a result of that you seem to be #triggered yet once again.


Aw, how special. You think the people who share your politics includes everyone. It doesn't. I have plenty of friends. They're just not right wing #triggered extremists who either ignore or make excuses for trump's behavior. We leave that up to you and your kind. But then once again you blame us for that since you're unwilling to step up to the plated. You choose to blame me for that................


But since that's probably the only BS you have left in your bag of tricks what else can you do?

They are sent out to registered voters. They met all legal requirements when they registered to vote. Claiming the fact that someone is registered to vote doesn't want a ballot is ridiculous.


Once again they met all legal requirements when they registered to vote.I can pay cash for a pair of shoes. Just stop the nonsense already.


No, people are pointing out that you're making it purposefully harder for people to . And that much s true.


That's just some nonsense you created in your own mind. You are actively trying to make it harder to vote. You have certainly been told it's racist to continue closing polling locations in impoverished black neighborhoods mainly across the south where it's targeted at the poorest of people with the least likelihood of having transportation in order to travel to vote.

Of course you ignored all of that and now wish to write your own narrative.


You must have missed it. This is the first time in this thread you actually posted your opinion.

You said methods, not systems. I misquoted.

I dunno, I think it's fair to call a system that resulted in Trump, Biden, Trump again the last three Presidential elections as broken. It may be working as intended by those now in power mechanically, but it's a travesty. It's broken before we even get to the act of voting.

I agree. We have a very liberal timeframe in which people can go to vote. Way too many mail-ins. I am not saying there aren't people who need the mail-in system, but it is way out of line. Those ballots are sent out well in advance. There is no reason for them to show up late on election night or even after. The only exceptions might be from military personnel out on some battleship somewhere.

We need to quit making excuses for people. If they don't show the civic responsibility to get things done on a timely basis, they are out of luck.

Documented cases of mail voting fraud are extremely uncommon

link

Research published by the Brookings Institute in November found that cases of mail-in voting fraud account for merely 0.000043% of all ballots cast by mail, equivalent to roughly four out of every 10 million.

The research focused on four of the five most recent general elections: those in 2016, 2018, 2020, and 2022. To make its calculations, Brookings drew on a Heritage Foundation database of election fraud cases that “ended in a finding that the individual engaged in wrongdoing,” identifying cases in which people were charged with fraud related to mail-in voting.

In the 2020 election, in which a record number of Americans voted by mail and which Trump has repeatedly claimed he lost as a result of voter fraud, the researchers calculated that those cases comprised just 0.000051% of the mail ballots cast.

An Associated Press survey of state and election officials in both Democratic- and Republican-run states also found no cases of fraud, vandalism, or theft related to the expanded use of drop boxes for mailed ballots in that year’s election—which Trump and other Republicans raised concerns about being a potential source of fraud—that could have impacted the outcome.

Another study from 2020, published by the American Statistical Association, estimated the change in the reported number of voter fraud cases after states switched to conducting elections by mail. Comparing the number of voter fraud cases in states where a large portion of voters receive ballots by mail to that in other states, the study found “no evidence that voting by mail increases the risk of voter fraud overall.”

Earlier research produced similar findings. An investigation conducted in 2012 by the News21 reporting project, for instance, found just 491 alleged cases of absentee ballot fraud since 2000—a period in which hundreds of millions of votes were cast around the country—based on an analysis including hundreds of interviews and thousands of public records. Although the investigators found that voters frequently make mistakes, such as voting twice or in the wrong precinct, they concluded that few cases revealed a coordinated effort to fraudulently alter election results.

Research also shows that mail-in voting expands voter access and participation, providing a secure method of voting to millions who might otherwise not have been able to access the polls. In 2020, for example, during the height of the COVID-19 pandemic, 46% of all voters received and voted through mailed ballots, according to the National Vote at Home Institute; voter turnout that year was the highest it had been in over 120 years. Another study found that voter participation increased an average of 5.6% in states that mailed a ballot to registered voters in the 2020 presidential election.

As per usual they're trying to create a problem where none exists. It's really sad how so many try to make it more difficult to vote.

It's not fraud, they're "mistakes." Frequent "mistakes." They accidentally voted multiple times.



Now I'm kind of curious what that "frequently" actually looks like, and how it breaks down, and how many un-"coordinated" efforts there were.


Did voter turnout actually increase or is that number inflated by repeat voters?

Numbers on their own don't really tell the whole story. And "National Vote at Home Institute" doesn't really sound like an unbiased party on the topic of mailed ballots.

---------------

I'm not really trying to argue, these kinds of inconsistencies and apparent biases just leave me having a hard time taking numbers at face value.

If you ignore the "mistakes," you come up with a number. If you include the "frequent" "mistakes," it sounds like it could be a very different number.

News21 conducted an "investigation," but what did they go into it looking for? How long did they investigate? Hundreds of interviews and thousands of public records isn't really that many in the grand scheme of things when you're talking about hundreds of millions of votes. If it was 300 interviews and they found 491 alleged cases, that's more than one for every interview. I'm not saying that's what happened, but the way things are framed can be very deceptive.

Cool story. So, we should only consider voter fraud based on convictions, right?

I mean if a store is looted and nobody was convicted; nothing was really stolen right?

By comparison, 27.2 million cheat on their taxes every year ~ only 1600 are convicted. So, no tax evasion issue, right? I mean it's such a small percentage. Maybe, since there's really no fraud, we could make things easier by having people just send in what they think they owe instead of having such a convoluted, oppressive system.

Good news for men though, you've only really cheated on your wife if she's successfully divorced you on the grounds of infidelity.

As for "another study", it's pretty much ridiculous to rely on data from 2000-2012, when bulk-mailing of absentee ballots exploded in 2020. That said, only 491 cases were investigated. Just so you know (not that you care) over that time span only 10 (that's right, TEN) cases were investigated for in-person voter fraud. And that's across billions of votes cast.

What ifs seem to be your strong suit. Audits have been done on state voting systems post election. It seems you somehow believe this "repeat voting" would not have been caught in such audits.

And another myth. Why do I call it a myth? Because one of the most bias and right wing organizations there is combed through everything they could get their hands on and still couldn't find some imaginary "mass illegal alien voting".

First................

Aggressive DHS hunt for voter fraud only finding a handful of possible noncitizen cases

Nine states have reportedly been targeted in the latest surge by the Department of Homeland Security to root out voter fraud. One state told MS NOW the findings there have been single-digit.

https://www.ms.now/news/aggressive-...g-a-handful-of-possible-noncitizen-cases

Analysis: Heritage Foundation’s Database Undermines Claims of Recent Voter Fraud

Brennan Center findings dismantle a key resource that Trump’s “Election Integrity” Commission relies on to justify baseless claims — by President Trump and some of the panel’s members — of rampant voter fraud.

https://www.brennancenter.org/our-w...-database-undermines-claims-recent-voter

"Yeah but what if" is not grounds to overhaul the election process.

Sounds like a #triggered, #snowflake way to explain away opinion and common sense and blame it on, well, a conspiracy. As usual, the irony is pretty thick.

Don't respond to any facts though, mac. Just play the "cult" card, you wear it well.

What facts have you presented that in any way provides any evidence of mass voter fraud? Do you need help with the answer?

I'll take the $20 bet on whether there is litigation after the midterms. Would like some clear cut definition of what the actual metrics is.

But to date, our elections are definitely safe and secure and valid. Provably so... And yet again Trump is trying to undermine confidence in them.

It's the "heads I win, tails you lose" method of grifting he has always used. The only time he complains about illegal voting are in states and elections he loses and his minions follow along blindly. Much like his criminal convictions and the findings in his sexual assault law suit.

He's never guilty of anything because it's always someone elses fault. Just ask him.

No, no, no... that's not the bet, Kemosabe.

He said: "there will be months and months of litigation and the President of the United States going to the mat and saying 'I do not believe the new Congress should be allowed to sit as the constitution calls for.'" You summed it all up with "something to watch for".


I said: I bet you $20 he has no response, retraction, comments at all, when and if it doesn't happen.

My point is the endless predictions of the coming dystopia, that never come to pass, never have any of these talking heads standing up and saying "Hey, I was wrong". Never.

So if there is litigation that delays the verification of election results I
... Or tries to cast doubt about the results... Which is basically the prediction, that's not good enough to win the bet?

You're wanting to assume no litigation and only between the guy doesn't admit his mistake (if that happens?

Trump brings fight over mailed ballots back to Supreme Court

WASHINGTON −The Trump administration is once again asking the Supreme Court to let the U.S. Postal Service tighten the use of mail-in ballots ahead of the November midterm elections, which will decide control of Congress.

In an emergency appeal filed on Sept. 3, the administration asked the court to lift a judge's ruling that paused President Donald Trump's new role for the Postal Service.

That ruling came after the Supreme Court last month said a previous ruling from U.S. District Judge Indira Talwani was premature because it came before the Postal Service had finalized rules for how it would implement Trump’s executive order.

Talwani issued the latest block a day after the Postal Service published its final rules, finding that they are probably unconstitutional and would be impossible to carry out in time for this year's elections.

Her hold on the policy is temporary and will expire on Sept. 10 unless she extends it, a move the judge is considering.

The administration told the Supreme Court that they should intervene now − despite the lack of a final decision from Talwani and before an appeals court has weighed in − because of the fast-approaching election.

North Carolina will begin mailing absentee ballots to voters on Sept. 4.

Rick Hasen, an elections expert and law professor at UCLA, called the early intervention request by the administration "highly unusual procedurally".

Under the controversial order Trump signed in March, the Postal Service sets standards for ballot mail envelopes and states must submit lists of verified voters. The Postal Service can refuse to deliver ballots that don't meet the new rules or bear the name of a voter who is not on a list.

A whistleblower has warned that the technology developed by the U.S. Postal Service to carry out the order could "derail the midterm elections," saying it hasn't been properly tested and risks "catastrophic failure" if implemented.

A Postal Service spokesperson has said the agency is "carefully reviewing" the issues raised by the whistleblower. The agency has spent months developing a "simple, secure, and efficient" mail ballot system, and the work was "conducted in a manner consistent with court orders," the spokesperson said.

Under the Constitution, states are assigned the role of administering federal elections. But Trump has called for greater federal control since losing his 2020 reelection campaign. He’s continued to push the false claim that he lost because of widespread voter fraud.

Regardless of whether voter fraud is common or not, Trump's policy will help protect the integrity of federal elections, the Justice Department said in its appeal.

The fight over what rules govern absentee ballots could be crucial for the 2026 midterms, which will determine which party controls Congress. Democrats can take control by flipping a handful of seats in the House and Senate.

Voting by mail has decreased since its peak during the COVID-19 pandemic. But nearly 30% of voters still cast a ballot that way in the 2024 elections.

Democrats are more likely than Republicans to vote by mail, according to the MIT Election Data & Science Lab.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...upreme-court-postal-service/91598981007/

Now it seems Republicans think our election rules should be set by presidential decrees rather than any what used to be normal means.