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Defensive Line

Who stays and who needs to go?

Will RAC be willing to show the door to the guys who need to hit the street and hang 'em up?

Ted Washington's fat ass is the very first one...he should have been gone before the 2007 season as he was ineffective and a waste of a roster spot. When building a team to be a contender, you can't waste spots on guys that can only play one or two downs out of every 3. The good news is I'm pretty sure he was only here on a 2 year deal and his time is up.... ?

Orpheus Roye- He wants to play longer, but he is 35 years old (in a couple of weeks) and cannot adequately man the position as he once did. 2008 is his last contract year but methinks they need to take a long hard look at letting him go and putting some fresh blood in his place.

Simon Fraser- Fills in well as a spot player but doesn't have the ability to man the end for every down. Not under contract for 2008.

Ethan Kelly- Another spot player....not a starter. Not under contract for 2008.

Robaire Smith- Played more than adequately, under contract through 2010.

Shaun Smith-- Played adequately, new to the 3-4 D, under contract through 2010.

Bobby Hamilton- Old geezer signed due to injuries. Can't foresee us bringing him back for any reason whatsoever.

What to do? We've seen what an improved offensive line can for an offense, now we need to go after a NT that demands double teams and can free the ends up to do their job....force runs to the outside....bring pressure up the gut. Putting a premiere player at this position could very well make some of these guys that I have deemed to be "adequate" better players......

We don't need a RB on day 1....we don't need any offensive players on day 1 of the 2008 draft. We need a DL and a LB........if you look at teams that have successfully ran the 3-4, they go after LBers each and every year. Let's get a young hog in the middle of the DL first though.

Questions...hehehe...

#1...Do we have a 1st Rounder???

#2...Can I speak of the LB Crew or is that a 2nd Thread???

I don't disagree....if we can indeed land a FA NT, go for it.....but i am not so sure S. Smith can't be that guy. Seems we played him outside for a good portion of the season....I don't know that he can't be the maneater we need in the middle.....but again...if we have a shot at a proven player....do it.

I will tell you tow backers i like....both guys who go somewhat under the radar who could be available in rounds 2-3.

Leman of Illinoia and Mayo of Tennessee. I think both those guys will make fine middle backers...I am not that high on any of our middle backers for one reason or another.

Back to the line.....Royes spot is the real critical position IMO.....we have to find someone who can take that. As you point out...he is pretty much done and we have nothing behind him that gets any of us excited.

Gee, how did you know I wanted to talk about the defensive line?

Washington: I completely agree w/you about Big Ted. The guy was terrible. I was at the first Bengal game and had my binoculars trained on the d-line quite a bit. He was NOT being doubled. And he still didn't make tackles. He was terrible. He just stood straight up and got sealed way too often. The run defense improved some after he went out. He needs to go.


Roye: Big Orpheus was a very good player. Injuries have reduced his effectiveness the last two years. He is old. I really respect the guy, but I don't know if we can count on him.

A. Smith: Has his moments, but is inconsistent. Doesn't bring it every play. He does make some impressive plays when he decides he wants to go hard. He should be part of the rotation.

S. Smith: He gets a lot of love on this board. I don't think too highly of him. Chooses as gap and goes, much like Big Fatty did. He either makes a nice play or takes himself completely out of it. Big runs are the result. Will stay as part of the rotation.

Fraser: I like his effort, but he's terrible. If he is here, we are in trouble. He's just not strong enough to eat blocks.

Kelly: I thought he did okay. He sure was better than Big Ted. He is not a starter, but could be part of the rotation.

Hamilton: Brought in due to the injuries. Won't be back.


We need a very good NT. That is priority # 1. We need a guy who will command double teams and open things up for our linebackers.

We also need at least two more DEs. We have to remember that defensive linemen rotate a lot and you need depth across the line.

Think about this.............New England's entire starting line is comprised of first round draft choices. We obviously can't get that done this year, but we should invest heavily in the d-line---both in free agency and the draft.

We don't need a first rounder to get a good NT. And no..........this is a DL thread. LMAO

Any thoughts on FA players for the nose??.....

No Peen, I haven't looked into it at all. There are others who know more about that stuff than me.

We don't have a first rounder.....yet. Don't go there.

I was gonna make this a front 7 thread but figured we could do two....one for DL and one for LB....

Heres a few not sure how accurate the site is:

Jared Allen, UFA, Kansas City Chiefs
Allen’s sack total dropped in ’06, but he still posted 7.5 and raised his tackle total a good deal. In ’07, he has returned to form with 13.5 sacks and three forced fumbles and been a stellar player on a poor team. He’s just 25 years of age, and has shown that he is among the league’s best at his position. He’ll be a high priority for several teams once the signing period opens.

Albert Haynesworth, UFA, Tennessee Titans
Haynesworth came into the season determined to have a great year and he showed up. He has six sacks, 40 tackles, and he has constantly applied pressure up the middle— allowing other defensive linemen to have an even greater impact themselves. While quarterback Vince Young struggled for much of the season, Haynesworth led a defensive unit that contributed significantly to the Titans potential playoff run. The Titans will find it hard to let Haynesworth leave via free agency, as it would create a sizable hole to fill. The defensive tackle will command big dollars on the market.

Justin Smith, UFA, Cincinnati Bengals
Smith is an intriguing player. He’s consistent, experienced, and has a powerful motor. With 81 total tackles and 7.5 sacks in ’06, Smith showed that he was a high level end, and that he was coming into his own as a defensive leader on the Bengals. He’s been unable to have similar success this season, with just two sacks to go with his 75 total tackles. It doesn’t help that the defense around him has been porous. He won’t command elite dollars, but he could be valuable to a handful of teams and may find a suitor willing to open the checkbook a little bit.

Terrell Suggs, UFA, Baltimore Ravens
Suggs is somewhat versatile and has become a volatile opposing presence for offenses. He has the ability to play at the linebacker spot and also attack from the line at the end spot. He has grown into a top pass rusher and presents match-up problems for most teams. He was near or above double digit sack totals in each of his first four seasons with eight being his career low until this season—he has just five. He is still a true talent and will attract some large offers from various teams, but Baltimore will do everything they can to sign him to an extension, especially considering that he recently turned just 25 years of age.

Mike Rucker, UFA, Carolina Panthers
Rucker is talented, there’s no doubt about that. But just how talented may be extremely debatable. He has had the benefit of playing alongside one of the league’s best defensive players in Julius Peppers. Peppers is having a down year, and so is Rucker. There is probably a connection, but Rucker may still be pursued by several teams. While Rucker has posted just three sacks on the season, he’s had as many as twelve sacks in a season previously, and he posted five sacks last season. His play—at least numbers-wise—has tailed off in recent seasons, but if a team is convinced that he can return to form somehow, he might get a decent contract offer.

Tommy Kelly UFA Oakland Raiders
The Raiders may work to extend Kelly’s contract, but the team is also giving other players a shot at challenging for the starter’s role next season. Kelly was a solid presence through seven games, before suffering a season ending torn ACL. There’s a chance that Oakland lets Kelly walk over injury concerns and as they shift talent and bring in new talent. Kelly would have brought strong interest from some teams, but with his injury, only a few teams will likely be serious about acquiring him.

Corey Williams, UFA, Green Bay Packers
A starting defensive tackle for a rejuvenated and strong Green Bay team, Williams has helped the Packers become one of the better defensive units around. Williams has been able to tally seven sacks—matching his 2006 total—along with 32 total tackles and three forced fumbles. He has been very disruptive and will receive very strong interest as a free agent this upcoming offseason.

Other Free Agent Defensive Linemen
Jordan Carstens UFA Carolina Panthers
Ebenezer Ekuban UFA Denver Broncos
Sam Rayburn UFA San Francisco 49ers
Paul Spicer UFA Jacksonville Jaguars
Randy Starks UFA Tennessee Titans
Renaldo Wynn UFA Washington Redskins

2008 FA DL's

First I want to thank Pdawg for suggesting that I join this board. I used to be on the original board but got sucked into the new version on the official team web site for the last year or so, anyway thanks for bringing this board back to my atteniton.

Just a couple of small items, one, Louis Leonard is another DL on the active roster who we acquired towards the in of the season and he did see the field.

Secondly, I believe Savage's plan remains to get S. Smith to settle in at the nose tackle spot once personnel will allow it.

agree with what is said- just about the entire line needs to be rebuilt. I think there are two servicable guys in the Smith's, beyond that its fairly bleek.

Washington could make for a nice coach- but some articles earlier in the year kind of made me wonder on that. I think the wording was "he growled" at the younger guys when they approached him. So instead of being a teacher he wasn't approachable. He is done, should retire.

I would guess the end has come for Roye as well, but is sounds like he wants to keep playing. A decision will need to me made to keep him for experienced veteran depth or to cut him. This probably all depends on the draft and free agent signings.

I almost expect the entire draft to go defense, it would be hard to find anybody in the late rounds to make an immediate impact, especially on offense.

Man, there is some real talent there. Cripes..........every one of those guys are better than anything we have. I wonder how many will actually make it to free agency.

Another thing............good NTs can come from the lower rounds. They don't have to be drafted in the first and second rounds.

Haynesworth is one that a lot of people on here want (me excluded, he has issues) but there is probably zero chance he hits the market....if they can't reach a deal (and he has said he wants to stay there) they will more than likely franchise tag him.

I guess on that list that probably the top 3-4 won't hit the market and will be tagged. there still is talent though, it's going to depend on who's in cap hell and who isn't.

Also Phil likes trying to get his hands on RFA's so I would probably bet we'll try that route as well.

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We don't need a RB on day 1....we don't need any offensive players on day 1 of the 2008 draft. We need a DL and a LB........if you look at teams that have successfully ran the 3-4, they go after LBers each and every year. Let's get a young hog in the middle of the DL first though.

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Since day one is only two rounds next yr...........and we only have ONE pick in the first two rounds right now (that COULD change), I'll agree with this statement.

If we were still in the old format of 3 rounds on day one and we still had a 1st round pick, I would disagree. We still need some help on O,..........RB, WR, and to quote many of you guys from last yr., OL.

Is DL a PRIORITY.....hell yes it is, problably the #1 priority, but we can't just ignore the O either.

Washington....GONE

Roye...He may hang on one more year as a backup who could fill in for 10 to 20 snaps a game. Imporving the depth from what we had this year. He just can't take the pounding anymore and limiting his plays could keep him healthy enough for one more season.

Fraser.... Needs to go. I love the guys attitude and motor, but he just doesn't have the talent to make an impact in the NFL.

Kelly ..... Needs to go. If we can't improve the D-line enough to force him out it's going to be a long season again for the Defense.

R. Smith.... Still a keeper to rotate in 2008.

S. Smith .... Is a keeper. Somebody talked about his gap play (to lazy to look back and see who right now) But this was his first year in a 3-4 and he was shuffled between NT, and end. He needs to settle in at NT and as he gains more experience at one position in the 3-4 I believe he will keep improving.

Hamilton.... I'm glad he got the chance to enjoy one last NFL game. Bye, Bye Bobby.

Leonard.... He couldn't crack our lineup last year, and he sure won't stand a chance next year.

I'm looking for four new D-lineman next year thru free agency and the Draft. It's to early for me to get into WHO, and where they are coming from, but I'm pumped up just thinking about it. We fixed the O-line, now this off season the focus is on the D-line, and I have my fingers crossed that we can have the same success.

I said that about S. Smith. I really don't think him being new to the 3-4 defense has anything to do w/it. He chooses a side----which means he tries to guess right to make big plays, rather than eat blocks and maintain his gap responsibility.

I also see him more as DE than a NT. It seems a lot of you see him as a NT. He doesn't eat blocks. How can he be effective in a 3-4 as a NT if he doesn't eat blocks?

Honestly.........he plays more like a 4-3 Tackle than a 3-4 anything.

From what little I've read I doubt few if any of those top 7 go anywhere. The exception might be Allen. He seems to think, from the only thing I've heard (on Sirius a week or two ago), that he won't be in KC next year. Not sure why.

Haynesworth isn't going anywhere, IMO. I could see us going after Rucker. But to be honest I don't know much about the guys outside our division (except Haynesworth).

I don't know we will be able to get 4.

I would be happy with a FA starter and possibly another via the draft as a back-up. we still have Purcell and Pittman.

Once the draft gets here, we can't totally rely on that as a way to stock the line.

Savage has demonstrated he will select BPA. if it is a clear cut selection....and for all we know that may be a receiver.

I could live with a starting line of Smith and Smith....plus a proven FA vet.

I see him adding a few pounds, and hitting the weight room if he is moved to NT. I also think he is still young enough to learn the position, and that he is willing to learn to eat up the blocks, and adjust his game. Thats my honest opinion bud.

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I could live with a starting line of Smith and Smith....plus a proven FA vet.

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The defensive line is not like an offensive line. Guys rotate on the defensive line. You need more than 3 quality players. We need to make an investment here, Peen.

Okay. Perhaps you are right. Heck.......I hope you are right.

One or two new lineman is not going to get the job done. We need upgrades as starters, and as backups. I'm telling you to expect four new additions to the line during the off season.

Savage does BPA that fills a need I believe... no way does he select a WR with his first pick... we will be going defense with our first and possibly second pick... I expect most of our picks will be defense and maybe a late pick for a weapon on offense if someone good is available. JMHO

I'm going to agree with this last statement, but four new DL in one off-season may be too much for even Phil to achieve.

Someone mentioned Leonard, and its possible he can be a good backup, he was merely a rookie last year.

but fellas, lets not forget we have 2, 280-290 lb DLers that were rookies last year under contract until 2010ish in Melila Purcell and Chase Pittman. Purcell cracked the roster for SF but was a healthy scratch.

i think Shaun Smith, Robaire Smith, Louis Leonard, Purcell, Pittman and 2 new guys could solidify this line right away.

If you look at those 5 right there, Robaire Smith is the only person with more than 4 years of experience in the league. and outside of Robaire Smith each of these guys will have their first offseasons in the 3-4 that can give them ample time to improve that could save us money.

Dayton said..

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Keep an eye on Chris Canty RFA of Dallas...I've seen where we r interested...6' 7" and 300lbs...PERFECT DE in a 3-4...

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I have heard his name a lot and think he is a pretty good player. Do you have any thoughts on him?

Me too, because there's only so many FAs/draft picks out there, and folks know we need DL baaad.

maybe we can trade DA for vince wilfork

I think a draft pick and two FA's could do a lot for the DL immediately.

That's three and it's basically another DL. Where to get each I don't know for sure. I assume the NT from the draft and two Ends in FA. The word "starter" doesn't mean that much as far as the DL goes since they rotate so much. So long as we upgrade two spots, NT and End, the third acquisition can rotate.

I know that doesn't sound like the complete rebuild we'd all like to see. But a complete rebuild is not going to happen in one season. A solid NT, a starter caliber End for the rotation and another End better than our best current backup would do wonders I think.



Vers, a lot of fans think S. Smith should be the NT and I'd have to agree that he did better than anyone else at that position. But, I belive RAC and the DL coach saw the same thing you did that he is a better End than NT. I know it's been said that he was chosen for NT and was "unfortunately" moved to End due to Roye's injury, but when asked about that in a presser RAC seemed pleased to have him right where he was at End.



Savage will do something that will make a major impact. Last season he used our top pick on a LT, our top FA signing on a LG, and a 2nd tier FA signing on a RG, and that fixed the line.

The same approach this season should yeild favorable results. Since the DL is a rotation, I think that actually makes it, I hate to say easier, but, easier to upgrade.

The reaason is because you rotate DL's based on down and distance, oppositions tendancies and the differing skill-sets of your players. Find that one thing a player does exceptionally well and use him in situations that will take advantage of that. RAC has been said to be a master at that. Look at how he even used Willie as a NT on occasions and it worked as Willie got pressuer up the middle to stop a 3rd down conversion. It wasn't necessarily that he ran out of players and was doomed to use Wille there. Or that Willie is some great NT. He isn't. It was because what he wanted from that position at that particular time Willie could do very well.

That's just one example of many odd goings on involving the DL and LB's that RAC can impliment. So if he actually has improved talent at those positions he can pick and choose skill-sets as needed.

A well thought-out mix of skill-sets would go a long way. Roye, for instance is still a formidable End, but cannot be relied upon to play a lot of snaps and stay healthy. Use him where he'll do the most good, only, and he can still contribute a lot. Of course that depends on the roster and who we may be able to sign in the offseason.

As I said, even though Savage can't do it all in one offseason, I believe he will make a big impact on improving the DL. Add to that the very strong possibility that RAC knows he can now, in all confidence, leave the offense to Chud and focus more of his time to the defense and helping Tucker with it. I think he realized that by the second half of last season and thus helped the defense a lot.



It's not going to be easy

j/c
Weather it's the DL or LB that gets attention first is just a matter of who's out there. Both need attention.
We can lay bets as to what position comes first...NT, DE, ILB, OLB...

Here's a name to watch as a possible NT as we get close to the draft: Ahtyba Rubin, Iowa State.

From what I have read he has rocketed up draft boards this year and some scouts have given him a 1st round grade, but it seems he'll fall to the second. He has excellent size (listed at 6-3, 326), and has only been playing DT for 2 years. Unfortunately I never watched Iowa State this year, so this is all second-hand knowledge, but figured I'd throw the name out there.

Man I wish the Draft Forum was up!!

Back in 2003 when I lived in Upper Arlington I used to see Simon Frasier quite a bit at the local Subway when I was there for lunch. Man is he slight for a 34DE.

On the other hand I've met Mel Purcell a handful of times with Leonard Peters (a practice squad Safety for the Bears) working out at my gym in Hawaii. Mel is a big boy and athletic.

How Frasier played and Purcell sat is a mystery to me. I haven't seen Mel yet but hope he's continuing to add good weight and become part of the DE rotation in 2008.


I'm of the opinion that we need a DE first and foremost rather than a new NT. As much as I like Kamerion Wimbley how would Haloti Ngata look on our team? Even now I probably would still pick Wimbley but it would be nice to be having this DL conversation with him in the rotation.

There is no one.....no one.....that we're going to find on the street or after the 50th pick in the draft that is going to be able to man the NT spot better than Smith/Kelly in 2008. Now we may get a developmental rotational player in the draft that turns out to be good in 09 and beyond but I say we train our thoughts on a good DE.

Chris Canty would be nice.

Chris Long would be great! I know there's a chance in hades of that happening but it sure would be nice. He's a high motor great athlete that has played DE in the 34 for a while. His frame is big and can add strength as he continues to develop. He was such a fantastic player and more importantly leader for the Cavaliers that his jersey was retired before his final game! That about says it all.

Chris Long would be the guy I drafted if I could add one player to the Browns out of the entire NFL draft class.

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We can lay bets as to what position comes first...NT, DE, ILB, OLB...

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Well, the thread is about DL so I addressed that.


In my next press confrence I'll talk abou the LB's.

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and for all we know that may be a receiver.

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Oh look Peen's pimping a WR already........that didn't take long..lol. Way to keep up the tradition bro.


I am one that actually thinks you can keep Roye for 10 maybe 15 snaps a game next year. So I can live with him in the rotation just not as a starter anymore.

Washington, Kelly, Frasier need gone. As someone else said (DnD I think??) if Kelly is here that's a bad sign. I like SS, but I prefer him as a rotational player that can play any of the DL spots than as our primary option as a nose. I think you'll see 2 maybe 3 quality investments brought in. Let's go off of DnDs rumored signing list and look at the new DL...........

Canty
Kelly......Tommy not Ethan for Christ's sake
R. Smith

S. Smith
Draft pick
Roye
Purcell ?
Pitman?

Signing those 2 guys, accompanied by the versatility of SS allows us to only need to draft one DL during the draft. That frees up picks for LBs, RBs, WRs (threw that in there for you Peen) etc. Imo we've got the money to sign impact FAs and make a run, and can then use our draft this year for getting young depth and letting that depth mature. Even if it costs a lot of $$$ to get a Kelly and Canty (which I don't think it will be a killer by the way) you do it so it frees up draft picks for getting young depth that can eventually take over for the high priced FAs we've had to bring in along the way.

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Kelly......Tommy not Ethan

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Doesn't the ACL bother you guys?

I am going off the ASSumption that our Dr.s would actually clear him before bringing him in. Basically, I just put his name in there because DnD mentioned him.......you could insert most of the list on Fletch's chart and I would be fine with it though. So in short, I wouldn't give him big $$$ if I didn't think he was healthy, but I doubt we would either under those circumstances. My main point was that we should address the DL position in FA why we have tons of cash to spend and not go into the draft with obvious needs.