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MLK Day reminds me that while we have freedom of speech in this country, you darn well better watch what you say. Saying anything worthwhile puts one at risk.
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judge by how people act and not by skin color....sounds simple but it works...
I agree. But the flaw in that logic comes when most of any given group acts in a given way.
Why is that a flaw? You should still treat everyone as an individual whether you believe stereotypes or not.
...always have been, always will be...
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All Pro
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judge by how people act and not by skin color....sounds simple but it works...
I agree. But the flaw in that logic comes when most of any given group acts in a given way.
No, because there are always exceptions to the rule, and we should look at each new person we meet as the exception.
Go Irish!
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Thanks for sharing that krs. It's good to hear that your son is already so interested in learning and asking the hard questions. Keep up the good work.
Now to those who talk about groups of people acting a certain way do any of you white folk think you speak for all the rest of us because we're all white (or however you choose to label yourself)? If not why do you assume one or even a few of the people of other ethnicities speak for all those who have similiar ancestry? We're all individuals and it's up to each of us to define ourselves and experience life based on that definition. If each of us would spend more time on making sure we are being the best we can be so we're happy with who we see in the mirror each day we'd all be a lot better off.
Dr King went out each day aware that it very well could be his last and continued to be exactly who he knew he was and to do what he was called to do. I strive to have that same kind of courage.
![[Linked Image from i98.photobucket.com]](http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l272/iambrown92/lama.gif) Peace, Love and Football
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judge by how people act and not by skin color....sounds simple but it works...
I agree. But the flaw in that logic comes when most of any given group acts in a given way.
No, because there are always exceptions to the rule, and we should look at each new person we meet as the exception.
I agree, and do. Just saying one reason why racism is ever present.
As long as the majority of any given group is acting in a given way that is not consistent with society as a whole, things will not change.
Certain groups wish to be treated equals (as they should be) and yet wish preferential treatment or believe that they are owed something others are not(as shouldn't be).
Basically have their cake and eat it too.
[b]USNavyDawg (Ret.) ![[Linked Image from i87.photobucket.com]](http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k155/brownsfan4173/NFL-Football.jpg)
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Now to those who talk about groups of people acting a certain way do any of you white folk think you speak for all the rest of us
My point exactly.
I did not mention Whites, Blacks, Hispanics, Asians...etc..
Yet you are quick to jump at "White folk".
[b]USNavyDawg (Ret.)
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Hey Ralphie, I was just thinking I hadn't seen you in a while. How've you been? Yes, I agree we need to be less concerned with people's ethnicity and more focused on how each individual can contribute to society. Unfortunately all the laws and programs that can be written cannot ensure that will happen but we had to start somewhere. The more I've studied these issues the less concrete the answers seem to be, the only one that holds true is for me to be my best each day and hopefully be part of the solution. Thanks for helping me with that. 
Peace, Love and Football
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Certain groups wish to be treated equals (as they should be) and yet wish preferential treatment or believe that they are owned ...
Interesting slip of the tongue. 
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us."
--Ralph Waldo Emerson
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Now to those who talk about groups of people acting a certain way do any of you white folk think you speak for all the rest of us
My point exactly.
I did not mention Whites, Blacks, Hispanics, Asians...etc..
Yet you are quick to jump at "White folk".
And you are quick to only pick up on that and ignore the rest of what was said, You also didn't answer the question do you think I speak for you or that you speak for me because we're both labeled as white?
Peace, Love and Football
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Now to those who talk about groups of people acting a certain way do any of you white folk think you speak for all the rest of us
My point exactly.
I did not mention Whites, Blacks, Hispanics, Asians...etc..
Yet you are quick to jump at "White folk".
And you are quick to only pick up on that and ignore the rest of what was said, You also didn't answer the question do you think I speak for you or that you speak for me because we're both labeled as white?
Yes, I am quick to pick up on that. Not hard to when thats all you ever hear.
To answer your question,
Did I say DawgyLama and I feel this way? No, I believe it is an obvious given, that if I am the one typing a post that it is my opinion. I didn't see a need to point out that it isn't the opinion of Democrats.
[b]USNavyDawg (Ret.)
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http://www.cnn.com/US/9804/04/mlk.dc.riots/index.htmlAnd this is EXACTLY the kind of thing that went on in Chicago and MANY major U.S. cities. Peace? Sorry, that's not what I saw as a kid. And I lived it in west Dayton as a child. Revisionist history?
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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Certain groups wish to be treated equals (as they should be) and yet wish preferential treatment or believe that they are owed something others are not(as shouldn't be).
Basically have their cake and eat it too.
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As long as the majority of any given group is acting in a given way that is not consistent with society as a whole, things will not change.
So, just to understand your post...you're insinuating that the majority of blacks in America want preferential treatment and as a whole they are not consistent with American society?
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Navy never said which group. It could be any group you pick. Blacks, Whites, Latino, Jews, Christians, military veterans, UFOologists. At no point in his remarks did he insinuate any particular color, creed, or other association.
KeysDawg
The fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. - Carl Sagan
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Oh, so because people rioted when MLK was assasinated you're going to say it's revisionist to think of MLK as a peaceful man?
I lived in Cleveland. We had lots of riots too but that didn't change how I perceive Dr. King, nor does it change his message.
...always have been, always will be...
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Navy never said which group. It could be any group you pick. Blacks, Whites, Latino, Jews, Christians, military veterans, UFOologists. At no point in his remarks did he insinuate any particular color, creed, or other association.
Of course not....on a thread about a Black Civil Rights leader... 
...always have been, always will be...
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Oh, so because people rioted when MLK was assasinated you're going to say it's revisionist to think of MLK as a peaceful man?
Firstly, it wasn't just AFTER he was asassinated. Many such riots came long before his death. You already know that. He would go from city to city spreading his message of peace and equality, and once the march was over, the riot began.
That was not what I was refering to at all. What I am refering to is a fact for those who were children such as myself at the time. Something nobody seems to wish to include often times. Something I do NOT see in my grandchildrens text books. Which most certainly is "just as factual" and a part of "the civil rights movement" as anything else.
While MLK's message and "his feelings" were honorable, riots, hatred, vadalsim and looting were what were often left in his wake. Those are simply the facts of the matter.
I never really had any problems going to school in a desegrigated area untill then. After that? Everything changed in that regard.
I wasn't speaking about his message. I was speaking of the "direct and immediate results" that impacted myself and a generation "at that time".
Why are you being defensive? I'm just helping tell the "rest of the story". It wasn't ALL the "feel good fairy tale" some make it out to be.
That's what I'm saying................
_________________________________________________
The Long Hot Summers, 1965-1967
Urban Unrest & Violence
In August of 1965, violence broke out in the Watts section of Los Angeles, California. A minor police incident escalated into five days of arson, looting, and violence. This required a force of 16,000 policy, highway patrol, and National Guardsmen to quell the violence. At the end, there were 34 dead, 1,000 injured, and 4,000 in jail. Over 250 buildings were burned (Isserman and Kazin, America Divided, p. 141)
The outbreak of such violence was repeated during the summers of 1966 and 1967. In 1966, the cities included were Brooklyn (NY), Chicago (Ill), Cleveland and Dayton (Ohio), San Francisco (Cal). The unrest spread during the summer of 1967 and included Tampa (Fla), Boston (Mass), Cincinatti (Ohio), Buffalo (NY), Newark (NJ), Toledo (Ohio), South Bend (Ind), New Haven (Conn), Chicago (Ill), Rochester (NY), and East Harlem (NY). The worst of the episodes occurred in Detroit, Michigan. The governor of the state certified to President Johnson that Michigan could not guarantee "public safety" and, as a result, President Johnson ordered 4700 U.S. paratroopers to the city to help restore order.
http://faculty.smu.edu/dsimon/Change-CivRts2.html
What I'm saying is simply this, often times, people that claimed to support his message, didn't follow it very well. I remember our house being shot at, and my dad shooting back. I remember black kids who I thought were my friends, suddenly have racial bigotry towards me.
They are memories that I won't forget. And that's what I THINK OF when I hear the name MLK. Because I lived through it. Many didn't. And they were BOTH colors..........
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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MLK Day represents that we celebrate racial segregation.
Why is it okay to have a black history month, but not a white history month? Why not a mexican history month? Native American history month? I think you get the point.
We celebrate racial segregation, and wonder why we can't have equality.
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I understand your point, but do not wish to elaborate upon it.  I will say this, our inner cities were FAR more "desegrigated" before the civil rights movement than after. Anyone can argue that point all they want. But it used to be big cities, or small towns. NOW? "the suburbs" Most of middle class "white America" fled the cities. Racial unrest, rising crime and violence caused suburban sprawl that began in the late 60's. As for myself? I really don't care. My children are grown and it's cheaper in the city. I have the ability to protect what's mine. That's all that really matters to me.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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I wasn't speaking about his message. I was speaking of the "direct and immediate results" that impacted myself and a generation "at that time".
That those things "followed" him is not by any means indicative of his actions or words. The fact is that people were angry long before King. Segregation, lynchings, and KKK crap was going on too. That's part of the reality too, Pit. Why don't you mention those things?
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Why are you being defensive? I'm just helping tell the "rest of the story". It wasn't ALL the "feel good fairy tale" some make it out to be.
I'm not being defensive just because I'm not falling in line with what you're saying. You are professing a desire to share the entire truth yet you're making remarks that are misleading. Yes, there was a lot of stuff going on and it coincided with King's tenure but he was preaching a message of love and peace. Where did anyone say this was a 'feel good fairy tale'?
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What I'm saying is simply this, often times, people that claimed to support his message, didn't follow it very well. I remember our house being shot at, and my dad shooting back. I remember black kids who I thought were my friends, suddenly have racial bigotry towards me.
They are memories that I won't forget. And that's what I THINK OF when I hear the name MLK. Because I lived through it. Many didn't. And they were BOTH colors..........
Of course they were and still are angry people on all sides. Many could say that those who claim to follow Christ's message do not always follow it well. If you want to tie MLK's name to the things that happened to you, that's your perogative and I can understand it but that's not how you presented your initial post. I dare say you could change your mind if you looked at other things that were going on that may have been responsible for the reactions of the rioters and the kids you knew.
...always have been, always will be...
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MLK Day represents that we celebrate racial segregation.
If that's what you get out of it, you may want to listen a little closer.
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Why is it okay to have a black history month, but not a white history month? Why not a mexican history month? Native American history month? I think you get the point.
We celebrate racial segregation, and wonder why we can't have equality.
This is part of our history as a country. We have this day to celebrate the man, Martin Luther King Junior and his message of love and equality and what he was able to do to drive the Civil Rights Movement. As for the other days you suggest, if you really want those to be instituted, write your congressperson.
...always have been, always will be...
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That those things "followed" him is not by any means indicative of his actions or words. The fact is that people were angry long before King. Segregation, lynchings, and KKK crap was going on too. That's part of the reality too, Pit. Why don't you mention those things?
Because "those things" were NOT previlant in Chicago, Cincy, Dayton, and Cleveland in the 50's and 60's. Yes, I can understand you bringing that up "in the south" during this period, but not in the north. Yet the very decsendants of people who helped fight for their freedom during the civil war were also spit upon by such riots, hatred, violence and looting. I must agree though, they didn't desciminate as to who they took their emotions out on.
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I'm not being defensive just because I'm not falling in line with what you're saying. You are professing a desire to share the entire truth yet you're making remarks that are misleading. Yes, there was a lot of stuff going on and it coincided with King's tenure but he was preaching a message of love and peace. Where did anyone say this was a 'feel good fairy tale'?
Why don't you check the textbooks in the schools today? In case you missed it, NO white people are mentioned as "victims". Have you ever heard black leaders "refer" to such "riots"? Of course not.
As I stated, I believe MLK's "message" was honorable and sincere. I have not questioned that which seems to be your main "bone of contention" here.
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What I'm saying is simply this, often times, people that claimed to support his message, didn't follow it very well. I remember our house being shot at, and my dad shooting back. I remember black kids who I thought were my friends, suddenly have racial bigotry towards me.
They are memories that I won't forget. And that's what I THINK OF when I hear the name MLK. Because I lived through it. Many didn't. And they were BOTH colors..........
If you want to tie MLK's name to the things that happened to you, that's your perogative and I can understand it but that's not how you presented your initial post. I dare say you could change your mind if you looked at other things that were going on that may have been responsible for the reactions of the rioters and the kids you knew.
It happenned to an entire generation of "inner city whites" during that period. And irrespective of "what happenned" to me, these rioters didn't discriminate. ANY white target would do.
No, I'm saying people of his own race "used his message" as a vehicle to incite others to violence and riots. Many of them "ignored his message" to achieve their own end. It really DID happen. I was there...........................
Wheather "you're in line" with that or not.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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Certain groups wish to be treated equals (as they should be) and yet wish preferential treatment or believe that they are owed something others are not(as shouldn't be).
Basically have their cake and eat it too.
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As long as the majority of any given group is acting in a given way that is not consistent with society as a whole, things will not change.
So, just to understand your post...you're insinuating that the majority of blacks in America want preferential treatment and as a whole they are not consistent with American society?
As Keys pointed out, I did not single out any particular group. I left it as, "if the shoe fits..."
So now the question is, why are you getting defensive about a particular group, when no particular group was mentioned? Either, you are trying to entice a racial argument or feel that black people act that way.
Again, I did not single out any particular group you did.
[b]USNavyDawg (Ret.)
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In 1967, when I was 15, I'd spent a month visiting my Great aunt and uncle in Detroit. A week or so after I'd come back home I watched in horror as the TV was showing the riots and burnings of the very area I'd walked around in just recently. I saw the movie theater I'd been to several times, burning to the ground.
I never gave a thought at that time what was really going on or why. My mind wasn't looking for the reasons behind it. Instead I was caught up in the surrealism of it all of having just been there.
#gmstrong
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Yes, I can understand you bringing that up "in the south" during this period, but not in the north.
Blame the south.
Black and White have lived much closer together in the south than they ever did in the north.
Possibly that explains the extreme incidents people like to point to.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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Not just to you peen, but to everyone who finds this day no more than a day-off or an inconvience, listen to King's speeches.
Don't listen to the "black man". Don't listen to the "preacher". Listen to the words.
The man said a lot more than, "I have a dream." But that's about all many know of him.
I know there have been MANY posts since this one, but it was the first one I came to that I had to reply to.
I say AMEN to this post.
MLK was a true leader and I'd bet just about EVERY successful black person in America truly listened to his words or was raised by someone who did. MLK made a huge difference and deserves every second of his holiday.
If only my work recognized it . . .
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Why is it okay to have a black history month, but not a white history month? Why not a mexican history month? Native American history month? I think you get the point.
Actually, except for one, those months do exist. Hispanic Heritage Month is September and American Indian Heritage Month is November. 
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and what about the exception?
[b]USNavyDawg (Ret.)
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and what about the exception?
No white history month.
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I do understand that.......white history is pretty well covered.
I have no problem with teaching some of the contributions Mexicans and Africans have made in building this land. No question they played a role bigger than given common credit.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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In 1967, when I was 15, I'd spent a month visiting my Great aunt and uncle in Detroit. A week or so after I'd come back home I watched in horror as the TV was showing the riots and burnings of the very area I'd walked around in just recently. I saw the movie theater I'd been to several times, burning to the ground.
Imagine you actually lived there and this was happenning. Your neighborhood, your block, your house. You think YOU "watched in horror"? And that's all I was trying to say. Many "white", innocent victims were a very real part of the civil rights movement. But this part of "history" is ommited from what our grandchildren/children are taught or is publicised.
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I never gave a thought at that time what was really going on or why. My mind wasn't looking for the reasons behind it. Instead I was caught up in the surrealism of it all of having just been there.
And the thing is, it was no fault of MLK's. These things were the "opposite" of his message. But many in his very own race used the civil rights movement as a tool to incite violence. Along with the message from Malcom X.
JMHO
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Black and White have lived much closer together in the south than they ever did in the north.
Oh, they may have "lived close". As long as they didn't use the same bathrooms, eat at the same resturaunts or drink from the same drinking fountains. And of course go to the same schools. You need just look at George Wallace as a prime example.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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jc....By DEEPTI HAJELA, Associated Press Writer
Sun Jan 20, 6:56 PM ET
NEW YORK - They are some of the most famous words in American history: "I have a dream ..." And the man who said them has become an icon.
Martin Luther King Jr. has certainly gotten his share of attention this year, the subject of a presidential campaign controversy over his legacy that blew up just around the time of the holiday created to honor him.
But nearly 40 years after his assassination in April 1968, after the deaths of his wife and of others who knew both the man and what he stood for, some say King is facing the same fate that has befallen many a historical figure — being frozen in a moment in time that ignores the full complexity of the man and his message.
"Everyone knows, even the smallest kid knows about Martin Luther King, can say his most famous moment was that "I have a dream" speech," said Henry Louis Taylor Jr., professor of urban and regional planning at the University of Buffalo.
"No one can go further than one sentence," he said. "All we know is that this guy had a dream, we don't know what that dream was."
At the time of his death, King was working on anti-poverty and anti-war issues. He had spoken out against the Vietnam War in 1967, and was in Memphis in April 1968 in support of striking sanitation workers.
King had come a long way from the crowds who cheered him at the 1963 March on Washington, when he was introduced as "the moral leader of our nation" — and when he pronounced "I have a dream" on the steps of the Lincoln Memorial.
By taking on issues outside segregation, he had lost the support of many newspapers and magazines, and his relationship with the White House had suffered, said Harvard Sitkoff, a professor of history at the University of New Hampshire who has written a recently published book on King.
"He was considered by many to be a pariah," Sitkoff said.
But he took on issues of poverty and militarism because he considered them vital "to make equality something real and not just racial brotherhood but equality in fact," Sitkoff said.
While there has been scholarly study of King and everything he did, that knowledge hasn't translated into the popular culture perception of him and the civil rights movement, said Richard Greenwald, professor of history at Drew University.
"We're living increasingly in a culture of top 10 lists, of celebrity biopics which simplify the past as entertainment or mythology," he said. "We lose a view on what real leadership is by compressing him down to one window."
That does a disservice to both King and society, said Melissa Harris-Lacewell, professor of politics and African-American studies at Princeton University.
By freezing him at that point, by putting him on a pedestal of perfection that doesn't acknowledge his complex views, "it makes it impossible both for us to find to new leaders and for us to aspire to leadership," Harris-Lacewell said.
She believes it's important for Americans in 2008 to remember how disliked King was in 1968.
"If we forget that, then it seems like the only people we can get behind must be popular," Harris-Lacewell said. "Following King meant following the unpopular road, not the popular one."
In becoming an icon, King's legacy has been used by people all over the political spectrum, said Glenn McNair, associate professor of history at Kenyon College.
He's been part of the 2008 presidential race, in which Barack Obama could be the country's first black president. Obama has invoked King, and Sen. John Kerry endorsed Obama by saying "Martin Luther King said that the time is always right to do what is right."
Not all the references have been received well. Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton came under fire when she was quoted as saying King's dream of racial equality was realized only when President Lyndon B. Johnson signed the Civil Rights Act of 1964.
King has "slipped into the realm of symbol that people use and manipulate for their own purposes," McNair said.
Harris-Lacewell said that is something people need to push back against.
"It's not OK to slip into flat memory of who Dr. Kino was, it does no justice to us and makes him to easy to appropriate," she said. "Every time he gets appropriated, we have to come out and say that's not OK. We do have the ability to speak back."
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 39,550 |
I understand the problems..........my point is schools and living conditions have been segregated in the north just as much as in the south.
The worst of the riots over the issue of school busing took place in Boston.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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Joined: Sep 2006
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 74,720 |
Quote:
The worst of the riots over the issue of school busing took place in Boston.
Yes, because Wallace had "his troops" waiting in Selma.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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Joined: Sep 2006
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 39,550 |
Quote:
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The worst of the riots over the issue of school busing took place in Boston.
Yes, because Wallace had "his troops" waiting in Selma.
Selma was way before that....
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,283
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,283 |
Quote:
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I hope no one is offended by my use of the term "blacks."
They are NOT African-Americans......
...and why aren't "they"?
Because neither they, nor their parents, or their grandparents, or their grandparents have ever been to Africa.
That's why.
We've discussed this PC BS before. You ARE NOT from Africa. You are an American citizen, so get rid of the attitude you're preparing to get when you read this post because we have been down this road before.
Sorry it took so long for me to respond to you.
You don't know a damn thing about me....so don't assume.
It's not a matter of if I've been to Africa or not...it's my BLOODLINE. I know many white people who claim their heritage but have never been to their homeland...I wouldn't dare presume to tell them that they cannot classify themselves as Italian-Americans or whatever.
So don't you.
You have NO right to tell me that my heritage is not African.
"My country is the world, and my religion is to do good" Thomas Paine
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Posts: 1,747
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,747 |
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I hope no one is offended by my use of the term "blacks."
They are NOT African-Americans......
...and why aren't "they"?
Because neither they, nor their parents, or their grandparents, or their grandparents have ever been to Africa.
That's why.
We've discussed this PC BS before. You ARE NOT from Africa. You are an American citizen, so get rid of the attitude you're preparing to get when you read this post because we have been down this road before.
Sorry it took so long for me to respond to you.
You don't know a damn thing about me....so don't assume.
It's not a matter of if I've been to Africa or not...it's my BLOODLINE. I know many white people who claim their heritage but have never been to their homeland...I wouldn't dare presume to tell them that they cannot classify themselves as Italian-Americans or whatever.
So don't you.
You have NO right to tell me that my heritage is not African.
Is it your bloodline? Is it your heritage? Can you trace back to what tribe you are from? Somehow I doubt it. So for someone who DOESN'T even know his heritage, you are sure proud of it.
I call myself American, I call you American, and you have no right to have me call you anything else, as that IS what we are.
[b]USNavyDawg (Ret.)
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Dawg Talker
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I really didn't want to have to go here, but you are obviously avoiding my point.
You DON'T know me.
You DON'T know that I've traced my history.
My bloodline NATURALLY goes back to Africa, as not only is it the origin of all people, but more specifically the origin of black people.
In a country where black people have been historically and systematically repressed and opressed, how dare you try AGAIN to remove my heritage from me.
Yes, I am an American. I am also the descendent of Africans...Mandingo tribe to be specific...also descendent of Blackfoot Tribe of native americans. Since you KNOW I don't know anything about my heritage
And even if I didn't know what tribe I'm from...I'd still be proud to be of African heritage.
"My country is the world, and my religion is to do good" Thomas Paine
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 39,550
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 39,550 |
Quote:
Is it your bloodline? Is it your heritage? Can you trace back to what tribe you are from? Somehow I doubt it. So for someone who DOESN'T even know his heritage, you are sure proud of it.
Sorry Navy......if we are going to play, it has to be in the spirit of fairness....that isn't.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
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Posts: 3,431 |
Off the topic maybe but are you more proud of your African heritage or your American heritage ? No wrong answer by the way.
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