|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015
Hall of Famer
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015 |
If you ask me (which I KNOW you didn't  ) we're not in a situation where DA is getting a lack of respect for what he did during the 2007 season. That year is over. Most everyone is looking towards the future, which is where they should be lookin'.
Everyone is well aware of the good things that DA did, but much like my old debates with Eo about over-zealous optimism, people who are more negative are simply seeing what DA did towards the end of the year, and are trying to make the team better by determining if he's better off as trade-bait.
You know me well enough to accept it as truth when I say I'm not arguing with you 'Dub  I just stand from the viewpoint of looking forward instead of backwards. I'm probably a product of my environment, as I'm surrounded by knowledgable football people here in Austin. They also happen to be huge Cowboy fans, so despite a 10-6 record, I keep hearing the words "playoffs?" in my head, hehehe. I get where people are coming from, and it's not a deadbate at all. It's simply THE big topic of the offseason for this team, and though I can't wait for the drama to play out and be over with, it's a really juicy thing to discuss.
Much better this than wondering who our new GM, HC, and top-5 draft pick will be
My take on DA had to be adjusted because I may have been Wron....wron.....possibly mistaken about him, but I always felt the worm would turn as the year went on, and it did. If there was ever a QB in the NFL that would fit with the "Cardiac Kids" montra, it's Anderson. For good or ill, he was exciting to watch, hehehe. He does some really good things and some really bad ones, and has some holes in his game. I'd be willing to bet that every single person that's for trading him would gladly acknowledge what he did in helping this team win, even if they played a girl-scout schedule. He still had to throw the ball. But having said all that, it's time to look forward, not backwards.
So what does a three-year offer do for Anderson? It rewards him for a good but not great season, and makes him the front-runner for the starting gig. I'm sure he'll want top-tier money for the lack of length on the deal, which means he may end up gettin' Tendered, though it seems that when Opie wants someone signed, they get signed.
I think it all comes down to how well Anderson REALLY thinks he can do in the future. If, deep down in his heart, he doesn't think he's going to be good down the road, he'll take a three-year deal and go from there. If he REALLY thinks he's going to improve and be a great QB, he'll take his Tender, hope that a team gives him a big deal, and goes out in '08 to either earn that big contract he just signed, or prove to the Browns that he's worth the big bucks.
I'd love to see him take the tender and go from there.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,475
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,475 |
"Vers woke me up by pointing out the lack of respect DA gets from some after helping to give us the best season since our return.
We won 10 games. DA certainly didn't do it all by himself, but he didn't hurt."
Way before Vers...I made a thread here and in the Browns chat...Giving DA his Due!
It was to stop the micro analysis and give the kid some props. I stated that from then on I wouldn't criticize DA during the 07 season. I paid my respects. So did many posters who feel that DA is not the best choice to move forward with.
Now its 08 season (still SB but for the Browns its move onto 08). And its time to talk about the QB position.
So in doing so its stated that we are disrespecting the player and the 07 season.
Sorry don't glom that crapola on me. So there are a few idiots who simply state DA Sucks! So all people who deadbate and feel DA is not the right choice have to be classed with them?
As for our record and what DA did...sure it was nice. Didn't hurt? Well possibly if we had the QB this teams deserves we would have gotten into the playoffs. Did having an OK QB hurt...not in getting some wins - but getting in the playoffs it did.
So cause he won 10 games we are to think he is not upgradeable? That is all in a nut shell that many are saying. DA did OK but is upgradeable. Thats being disrespectful. I tried to show why in my eyes he is upgradeable. Point of fact he did not Improve over the season he digressed.
"We should all be pretty darn happy about that and give ole' DA a healthy pat on the back for his efforts in the outcome."
Been there...Done that.
Just cause some are a little slow in the process doesn't mean I have to be. I'm past patting on the back for 07 and am looking forward towards 08. The kid did OK...OK will get us 10 wins and not in the playoffs.
Why do I have to cow tow to other's time lines of when it is time to give respects...when it is time to talk about 08???
People want me to prove my negatives...but in doing so its claimed to be disrespectful.....So basically there can only be on end of the spectrum....All must show respect to DA and not question him.
He ain't even a fricken Brown come 3/1 for Christmas sake...  So you tell me how much respect I should give him as our Future Franchise QB??? I gave him his due for 07 - Now its 08 and we are talking about who is best to lead this young team that is being put together with precision. Who is our Tom Brady? Who is our Jake Delhomme? If we got a shot at better than OK we should take it. Its not like we got to go too far for that result.
JMHO
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,160
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,160 |
I think it all comes down to how well Anderson REALLY thinks he can do in the future. If, deep down in his heart, he doesn't think he's going to be good down the road, he'll take a three-year deal and go from there. If he REALLY thinks he's going to improve and be a great QB, he'll take his Tender, hope that a team gives him a big deal, and goes out in '08 to either earn that big contract he just signed, or prove to the Browns that he's worth the big bucks.
Hmmmm...U think his feelings on how good he is will make him take this offer?
I doubt it.
A three year contract essentially calls the bluff of DA's agent. In reality, if DA was worth what was stated by his agent on the market,( I don't remember exactly what was mentioned) DA's agent HAS to take the tender and let that market force the Browns up or let his client get what he is worth.
If that market isn't there, then Phil gets what he says he wants. He gets another year for Quinn to take over and he has a contract that allows him to trade DA when its best for the Browns and not forced on them by RFA.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 13,341
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 13,341 |
I'm bored. I wish we could cut somebody or fire an assistant coach, that way we'd have something else to talk about. 
![[Linked Image from i28.photobucket.com]](http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c201/shadedog/mcenroe2.jpg) gmstrong -----------------
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,693
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,693 |
Quote:
I'm bored. I wish we could cut somebody or fire an assistant coach, that way we'd have something else to talk about.
Sorry, all I could come up with is that Jamal wants to be a Brown 
Browns | J. Lewis wants to remain with team
Tue, 29 Jan 2008 20:09:16 -0800
Marla Ridenour, of the Akron Beacon Journal, reports Cleveland Browns RB Jamal Lewis would like to remain with the team. He is hoping to receive a long-term contract before free agency begins, according to his agent Mitch Frankel. "It would be a great move for the Browns and Jamal. Hopefully by the end of the month he'll be a Brown for a long time," Frankel added.
KFFL
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/hfMNC7T.jpg) "I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,950
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,950 |
Quote:
Browns | J. Lewis wants to remain with team
Tue, 29 Jan 2008 20:09:16 -0800
Marla Ridenour, of the Akron Beacon Journal, reports Cleveland Browns RB Jamal Lewis would like to remain with the team. He is hoping to receive a long-term contract before free agency begins, according to his agent Mitch Frankel. "It would be a great move for the Browns and Jamal. Hopefully by the end of the month he'll be a Brown for a long time," Frankel added.
Whats up with all this good news..... 
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,367
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,367 |
I think it's all this good news that is causing us to fight.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,160
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,160 |
NO we just luv to fight during offseason 
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,950
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,950 |
Quote:
I think it's all this good news that is causing us to fight
You might be on to something....it's been so long, we dont know how to react.....
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,693
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,693 |
Quote:
Whats up with all this good news.....
:tumbleweed:
"I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 844
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 844 |
Quote:
Quote:
like I said in week 3 guys .. no one will give us what we want .... we won't be stupid and offer him what his agent wants .. and he will be here next year on his one year tender .... and then BQ WILL BURY HIM starting from day 1 in the OTA's and will be our starter for the next decade ...
*Yawn* ... 
That is the problem diam as soon as the Team switches to BQ which will happen, DA's value will drop considerably. We will still be able to get solid compensation for him but we wont get the high first rounder and then some, we are able to get for him right now.
Assasin, no offense, but, I completely disagree that we can get any high draft picks for DA. I mean seriously, if you owned a team and even if you needed a QB, would you trade a high 1st or any 1st and another pick on top of that? I wouldn't! I'd simply look to FA or try to trade up in the draft or see what falls at the teams best/highest pick. Now, I'm not completely knocking DA, his effort and potential to get better but I just don't feel he warrants giving up major picks, unfortunately, cause I'd love to get compensation for the BQ picks we gave up and use them to beef up the D.
![[Linked Image from i89.photobucket.com]](http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k233/marctheshark1969/thrandelelisafaggot.jpg)
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 326
1st String
|
|
1st String
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 326 |
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
like I said in week 3 guys .. no one will give us what we want .... we won't be stupid and offer him what his agent wants .. and he will be here next year on his one year tender .... and then BQ WILL BURY HIM starting from day 1 in the OTA's and will be our starter for the next decade ...
*Yawn* ...
That is the problem diam as soon as the Team switches to BQ which will happen, DA's value will drop considerably. We will still be able to get solid compensation for him but we wont get the high first rounder and then some, we are able to get for him right now.
Assasin, no offense, but, I completely disagree that we can get any high draft picks for DA. I mean seriously, if you owned a team and even if you needed a QB, would you trade a high 1st or any 1st and another pick on top of that? I wouldn't! I'd simply look to FA or try to trade up in the draft or see what falls at the teams best/highest pick. Now, I'm not completely knocking DA, his effort and potential to get better but I just don't feel he warrants giving up major picks, unfortunately, cause I'd love to get compensation for the BQ picks we gave up and use them to beef up the D.
I have to disagree with that.... Look at the QB market and there isn't a can't miss QB in the draft this year. Ryan may be the closest thing to it and he will likely be Top 5. Look at what Atlanta got for Matt Shaub and he had only played in a few games. DA was on the verge of a Pro Bowl season and it was only his first year as a starter. I think there are probably 2 or 3 teams praying that DA is tendered; maybe the Bears, Vikings, Chiefs, or Panthers. Maybe even Green Bay if you think about. DA has played in cold weather and loves to throw the long ball. If GB is skeptical about Rodgers then DA may really shine there with Jennings, Driver, Jones, etc...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 502
All Pro
|
|
All Pro
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 502 |
Generally chiming in… PS and staff decided to go the QB direction they did prior to last season... They drafted BQ with the projection he would be the future and that what they had on the roster would get the Browns by and possibly work out OK until the new QB toy was ready in a year or two... Opinion you say??? No its not... I was one who thought we needed a veteran QB to lead, hold the rains, manage the team, mentor and get the Browns close to 500... Many here agreed... Many, most of the rest, thought CF was the answer... Not me... He wasn't, he was jettison after game one and we are where we are... NOBODY INCLUDING DA HIMSELF EXPECTED WHAT HAPPENED TO HAPPEN!!! Thank God and everyone else who may of had a hand in the teams turn around this year...  I'm not a DA guy... I am still waiting for the DA shoe or bomb to drop... Too much history and track record in his past for me not to have doubt and hesitation... But DA had an outstanding year, PERIOD! I DON'T CARE WHO SAYS HE DIDN'T! THOSE WHO DID DON'T KNOW JACK! He helped the Browns nearly made the playoffs... He lead and helped the Browns to a 10-5 record as the starting QB... He nearly made the Pro-Bowl... He nearly threw 30 touchdowns... He nearly threw 20 picks... He nearly threw for 3800 yards...He helped turn around a team that was 4-12 the prior year, in his first year as a starter... He took the blame for the losses and his mistakes... He gave praise to all around him... He handled himself like a veteran QB who had been there before... He lead by example... His team mates and peers backed him and showed their support and respect for him... What the hell else do you all expect from DA??? Or anyone who was/is in his shoes? Do you even know? I don't think so...  The CS and FO had a good year... The O-Line had a good year... The secondary had a good year... ST's had a very good year... The utes had a good year... Thats why the Browns were 10-6... 10-6 is a darn good year... Everyone is replaceable... Upgradeable... Why do the Browns need to upgrade DA in 2008? Whom are the Browns going to bring in to upgrade DA in 2008? BQ couldn't earn the job in 2007, right? FA is there for all to see, what FA QB is going to come in and unseat DA? What draft pick would the Browns use to upgrade DA? Why would the Browns want to fix what’s not broken, ( the QB situation)? Is the cap a prob? No… The Browns can use the $$$ they have, FA and the draft to upgrade the D holes they have and need too... And that’s just what they will do… Man this time of the year here bows dead dogs... Can we find something else to knock the snot out of... This subject beyond is prehistoric dead horse... JMO's
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 15,188
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 15,188 |
Quote:
But DA had an outstanding year, PERIOD! I DON'T CARE WHO SAYS HE DIDN'T! THOSE WHO DID DON'T KNOW JACK!
Hi ... where's Jack ... if u see him .. send him over .. I'd like to introduce myself to him ... this way I know him ... cause according to U ... I DOTN KNOW JACK ... and if believing DA did not have an outstanding year makes me part of the group that don't know him .. I'M FAMM GLAD I DON'T ..
Quote:
What the hell else do you all expect from DA??? Or anyone who was/is in his shoes? Do you even know?
Oh Oh ... PICK ME ... I KNOW ... here's a short list to start with .. let me know if u need more ...
1. better decisions ...
2. better accuracy ....
3. some semblance of CONSISTENCY ....
I'd ask for mobility but we will never see that from DA ... not who he is .. not that I think we'll ever see marked improvement in any of the other 3 areas ... but at least he has a snowballs chance in hell at those ...
Quote:
Why do the Browns need to upgrade DA in 2008?
IF your looking for a reason other than to be a BETTER FOOTBALL TEAM than one of the dolts will need to answer U ...
I would like to see someone who is MORE ACCURATTE ... MAKES BETTER DECISIONS .... has some mobility and is ALOT MORE CONSISTENT ...
thats what i would go with anyhow ... 
Quote:
BQ couldn't earn the job in 2007, right?
No he couldn't .. YOUR POINT?????? I am not 100% sure but i would guess he has a MUCH BETTER GRASP of the O than he did after 3 or 4 weeks in training camp .. but one cant be 100% sure ....
my guess is that BQ is LIGHT YEARS ahead in many categories than he was back in August ... but thats just me .... 
Quote:
Why would the Browns want to fix what’s not broken, ( the QB situation)?
weather its broken or not ... if u can UPGRADE U DO IT .... or are u saying that no matter what happend between now and Sept. DA should be the starter JUST BECAUSE????
i doubt it bro ... BQ IS GONNA KICK HIS ASS and make it IMPOSSIBLE for us not to start him .... you'll see ... shep .. U wanna borrow my crystal ball?? *L* ..
Quote:
Can we find something else to knock the snot out of
Wanna start a thread on Daman and what color skirts he looks best in .... 
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,618
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,618 |
Quote:
But this time around, concerning the deadbate, Vers woke me up by pointing out the lack of respect DA gets from some after helping to give us the best season since our return.
Double D, you can give the credit to others. I don't need the credit. *L*
I am just glad that you opened your mind and looked at the entire picture.
Quote:
We won 10 games. DA certainly didn't do it all by himself, but he didn't hurt.
Double D...........I actually think it goes beyond that. I think he helped the team win 10 games. I think he was a big part of our success. That is just my opinion, but it is one I believe in. I am not saying he was perfect. I am not saying he didn't have his flaws. What I am saying is that he played pretty damn good football and that he was a big part of our success.
Quote:
And it's not just here on this board. Wherever there's fans there's the DA debate.
Truthfully, I didn't hear any of this DA bashing when I was back home. Frankly, I was appalled by the negativity when I came back to the board. I know some people who know football, and they don't criticize DA the way people on this board do.
Quote:
I know some think the debate is largely due to a lot of fans wanting to see the unproven first round pick, but those concerns about DA are not without merit, (not everyone is so fickle), and I believe many are looking at that, not at the bench.
Perhaps that is because a select few shove these "concerns" down people's throats continually, and then when he does make a mistake, people have one of those "Ah Ha" moments.
I know a tad about QBs. Hell, I coached 'em for long enough. I worked camps. I scouted them for colleges. Not saying you should believe me, but I think many of these "concerns" that people have are blown way out of proportion.
The biggest one is the accuracy comment. It's crap. All QBs are inaccurate at times. Did you watch the NE/SD game a couple of weeks ago? Did you see Brady's passes? He was way off. Faulk and others baled him out a lot. That isn't a knock on Brady. It's to point out that all QBs make inaccurate throws.
Double D..............I can't tell you that DA is a franchise QB. I can't say he will be great. What I can tell you is that the guy played very good this year. He proved me wrong. I did not think he was capable of playing that well.
I also saw him improve as the year went on. No, not his numbers. What I saw him improve was his ability to check down and find his second, third, and fourth receivers. He occasionally had melt downs and reverted to the gun slinger style that he was coached to do at Oregon State, but he made great strides in that department.
His timing and reading of defenses was exceptional. I think he has a real chance to be something special. He has gifts that other QBs only dream about. I am not saying he should be handed the starting job, but to dismiss him and hand the job to an unproven BQ is dangerous and short-sighted.
I would like to see an open competition. And I would like to see the winner have to continue to prove himself. I do not want the fans to ruin the winner. And you know what Double D.........I really think that some people are afraid of that open competition. It's the Tonya Harding syndrome. *L*
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us."
--Ralph Waldo Emerson
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,449
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,449 |
Quote:
I think it all comes down to how well Anderson REALLY thinks he can do in the future.
I think it all depends on how confident Anderson is and how bad he wants to constantly look over his shoulder at Quinn! Anderson had to hear the stadium erupt when Brady took the field against the Niners, and he certainly heard them boo when Brady was removed from the game. DA knows he will constantly be under the microscope in Cleveland, more so than on another team that doesn't have the heir-apparent, #1 draft pick waiting in the wings. DA may feel more comfortable on a team where he will have a little more breating room!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 874
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 874 |
Quote:
The biggest one is the accuracy comment. It's crap. All QBs are inaccurate at times. Did you watch the NE/SD game a couple of weeks ago? Did you see Brady's passes? He was way off. Faulk and others baled him out a lot. That isn't a knock on Brady. It's to point out that all QBs make inaccurate throws.
Well, I for one, had to watch Brady A LOT this year (son is a Pat's fan)...and there is absolutely no comparison between DA and Tom Brady of this year. In one recent game, Tom had thrown over 20 passes and had only 2 incompletes...and one of THOSE was because Welker dropped one that was right in his hands. I don't know what his final stats were for the game but he was putting the ball right on his receivers all day.
Now, I will say that it hasn't ALWAYS been that way. Brady was a normal QB...but his OLine play has been such that he could stand there and count the house before throwing and his accuracy and stats have improved mightily. Pretty much, DA had a pretty good OL this year...but he was not Tom Brady (even though they were both 6th rounders)...the difference COULD be that Brady has had more time in the saddle...but it COULD be that DA will never be a Tom Brady.
Our situation reminds me a lot of the old Patriots situation. The Pats had Drew Bledsoe (a man that I admire) with a cannon arm...a bit gawky on the move...and suspect decision making. The Brady guy with the arm not quite as strong got in the game one time and never came out. We haven't seen enough of our Brady guy...but we certainly saw our 'D' guy want to get his ass back in that game as quickly as he could so that we COULDN'T see enough of the 'Brady guy'.
It will be interesting to see our QB situation play out. I hope the football Gods have the right decision for us and enlighten PS with that information in a dream.
![[Linked Image from members.cox.net]](http://members.cox.net/flyinc5/smallsigpics/frcburnout.gif) AL 29 76 14 R_K
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 13,341
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 13,341 |
Quote:
....Did you watch the NE/SD game a couple of weeks ago? Did you see Brady's passes? He was way off. Faulk and others baled him out a lot. That isn't a knock on Brady. It's to point out that all QBs make inaccurate throws.
I'm not a DA basher, vers. But I will say he often shows some of the worst inaccuracy I've ever seen in an NFL quarterback. Swing passes, little 7-yard crossing patterns, screens... sometimes he's WAY off the mark.
Now I love his arm strength, his quick release, his decisiveness in finding a target quickly and throwing the damn ball... and yeah Diam, like it or not I love the wins and 29 TDs.
I've said it 21 times now: I'm on the fence with this whole QB thing. I believe Brady will probably unseat him in camp if it goes that far, but maybe he won't cuz who knows for sure?
gmstrong -----------------
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 496
1st String
|
|
1st String
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 496 |
Quote:
The biggest one is the accuracy comment. It's crap. All QBs are inaccurate at times. Did you watch the NE/SD game a couple of weeks ago? Did you see Brady's passes? He was way off. Faulk and others baled him out a lot. That isn't a knock on Brady. It's to point out that all QBs make inaccurate throws.
Vers, your really reaching now to make a ridiculous point.
I seem to remember a few times this season that Winslow, Edwards, and JJ stood at the spot on the field where they were supposed to get the ball, with their hands on their hips or palms turned up as if to say what the hell was that.
When I watched the Patriots I will swear I never saw that from any of their recievers.
You want to make it sound like those of us who feel the future depends on better QB play than Anderson can give us are full of crap but statements like yours show we may be full of it but you are excreting it!
Just wait till next season, I have heard that for over 40 years!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,445
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,445 |
Quote:
The biggest one is the accuracy comment. It's crap. All QBs are inaccurate at times. Did you watch the NE/SD game a couple of weeks ago? Did you see Brady's passes? He was way off. Faulk and others baled him out a lot. That isn't a knock on Brady. It's to point out that all QBs make inaccurate throws.
LMAO...You're a trip...
Brady? SD game? So Brady was a lil' off TWICE all year...G-Men was the other and it wasn't very often...
There's a major difference between a Brady or a Farve tossin' 4 picks...Or a Manning tossin' 6 in a game...Anderson is CONSISTENTLY INCONSISTENT & INACCURATE...If u can't see that I have no clue wtf u watch...This might be a case for u to WATCH THE BALL INSTEAD OF TUCKER & THOMAS...lol...
As Corp just said...These times when Edwards and Winslow are wingin' their arms in the air ain't because they're PO'd they dropped one...IT IS BLATANTLY OBVIOUS THEY ARE SAYING "WTF WAS THAT"????????????...Funny thing is I DO IT ALSO whether in a bar or in front of my big screen...And I KNOW WHAT I MEAN BY IT.......
It's a damn good thing Anderson had targets the likes of Brey & Winslow...Cause if he was throwin' those chit passes to a Morgan or Heiden his completion percentage woulda been BELOW FIFTY...And I LOVE Heiden's game...
Go Browns!!!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 5,620
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 5,620 |
From today's columbus Dispatch: Columbus Dispatch Article Browns Contract length an issue for QB Thursday, January 31, 2008 3:06 AM By James Walker THE COLUMBUS DISPATCH Neal C. Lauron DISPATCH Browns quarterback Derek Anderson took over as the starter and embraced the role. The Cleveland Browns and quarterback Derek Anderson are at least two years apart in contract negotiations, a source told The Dispatch yesterday. The Browns opened negotiations last week by offering Anderson a three-year deal, but Anderson's representation is seeking a longer term, about five years. The sides hope to reach a deal before free agency opens Feb. 29. Tony Romo of Dallas and Matt Schaub of Houston are recent gauges for quarterback signings. Romo signed a six-year, $67.5 million contract and Schaub a six-year, $48 million contract. It's unlikely the Browns would go that high in years or salary with Anderson, especially with Dublin native and former first-round pick Brady Quinn as the backup. Anderson threw for 3,787 yards and 29 touchdowns with 19 interceptions last season after becoming the starter in the second game. He went 10-5 and was named a Pro Bowl alternate. Browns general manager Phil Savage said the team will use its highest one-year tender on Anderson, a restricted free agent, if a long-term contract cannot be reached. That would require teams to give Cleveland first- and third-round draft picks to sign Anderson, and the Browns also would have the right to match any offer. jwalker@dispatch.com
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 2,530
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 2,530 |
Cleveland Browns coach Crennel: 'I had no doubts'
Posted by Mary Kay Cabot January 30, 2008 00:25AM
Categories: Browns
Coach Romeo Crennel thanked Browns owner Randy Lerner on Tuesday for sticking with him through the tough times and rewarding him with a two-year contract extension through 2011.
Great move Randy, both in hiring RAC and in extending him..
The extension, signed Tuesday, will pay Crennel between $3.8 million and $4.2 million over the last two years depending on team performance.
I think RAC should have gottin more, but I don't think he's in it for the money anyway.
"I know the last couple of years [Lerner] probably had some doubts about whether he had made the right choice or not, but I had no doubts," Crennel said. "I knew the program I was implementing along with [General Manager Phil Savage's] help could be a winning program. I think the progress that was made those first two years, even though it didn't show in the win-loss column, is beginning to show up now."
Never doubted RAC or PS, I doubt and have doubted the fans ability to understand the importance of continuity. At least Randy understands the importance of staying the course and we as fans are about to reep the rewards of what comes from patience.
What a stunning turnaround from the end of the 2006 season, when Crennel was coming off a 4-12 record, was 10-22 overall and 1-11 against the AFC North. Savage led the charge for the hiring of new offensive coordinator Rob Chudzinski and the overhaul of the offensive staff.
The hiring of Chud was well done, I wonder though how well he would have done if he were saddled with the same O Line that was here in 2006. Either way Chud gets the most he can out of the talent the Browns have, and that is what makes for a good/great coach.
Some in the organization were concerned Crennel mishandled receiver Braylon Edwards, who had one misstep after another in 2006. By the time training camp was under way last summer, the national media had Crennel firmly on the hot seat.
To be totally honest it wasn't the orginization that questioned RAC's handling of not just BE but KW2 as well, that was you Mary and your colleague Tony. But hell nobody in the press or for that matter the fans, who worked their collective butts off making up stupid lies has ever stepped forword and eatin their crow, for that deal. Thats OK though we forgive you, just remember we all know who you are and we know your full of it.
And the 34-7 rout by Pittsburgh in the season opener seemed to confirm he was in trouble. Then along came Derek Anderson, Chud's high-flying offense and a surprising 10-6 record.
I wonder where fans get their ideas from when it comes to giving credit to Chud and to DA, and finally PS, but no love for RAC. Maybe those that believe this crapola should be aware they are being led by the nose..
And now, if all goes as planned, Crennel will have four more years to do what he set out to do from the start: lead the Browns to a Super Bowl.
Get RAC the talent, and he'll get us there. He has proven that if he has the talent he can get guys to play hard for him, and more importantly he has proven that he can get players to believe that team goals are more important the personnal goals, and thats what wins championships..
"We feel that Romeo is the man that can lead the team to where we want to go," Savage said. "He has the respect of the players, he has a great relationship with the people in this building and I do feel like the Browns have come quite a way since he and I sat here three years ago. We're excited about where the team is going being led by Romeo and his coaching staff."
You said it PS the TEAM is being led by RAC
If Crennel was feeling the heat at the beginning of the season, he never let on.
"Every coach is on the hot seat," Crennel said. "If you win, you're on top of the world. If you lose, you're at the bottom of the world. It's a roller-coaster ride that we take as football coaches."
Yup RAC kept his head while the press and most of the fan base where losing theirs. Who was right? and who was wrong, AGAIN?
Crennel was asked if it's gratifying to prove his doubters wrong.
I am certain that it is, but RAC is to modest to say so.
"I haven't really proven much, other than I can win 10 games and can't make the playoffs, so we need to make the playoffs to give ourselves a chance to go to the Super Bowl," he said. "If we can go to a Super Bowl, then that will be rewarding."
RAC don't be so modest man you did a masterful job getting this team to play like a team this past season, and even if the press and some fans don't know it, some of us are smart enough to realise it, and applaud your masterful handling of everything from BE to the opening loss, MASTERFUL INDEED.
Another reversal from last off-season was Crennel's firing of defensive coordinator Todd Grantham. The 10-6 season apparently earned him more of a voice in staff decisions than he had last year. He also promoted Mel Tucker from defensive backs coach to coordinator.
Admitting that TG was not the guy and moving on to greener pastures was the next step in the Browns assent to SB champs.
"After some discussion and thinking things through, I decided to let Todd Grantham go," he said. "Todd worked very hard for the time he was here, but I thought it would be best if we made a change.
Your to nice RAC, the guy wasn't getting the most he could of from the talent he did have, and for that he was shown the door.
"Mel is a good, young coach. He coaches fundamentals very well, he understands schemes and he gets along well with the players."
Crennel said the defense, which finished 30th in the NFL, will be the same structurally, but that the approach might change depending on Tucker's preferences.
"I think we have some talent on the defense," Crennel said. "We just have to direct it better and get it to perform better."
I agree, and the 1st step to doing just that was firing TG, and hiring MT to take his place. With PAC's mentoring MT will be great DC, I have no questions there.
Hey folks we got the makings of a dynasty in Cleveland and that all starts with PS, and ends with RAC
Brown to the Bone
BTTB
AKA Upbeat Dawg
Can't believe I am in a group that is comprised of the best NOT just fans but people on the planet.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 15,188
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 15,188 |
Quote:
and yeah Diam, like it or not I love the wins and 29 TDs.
who the hell wouldn't love the wins and the 29 TD tosses ... I've NEVER BERATED U for that ... now giving DA to much credit thats an entirely DIFFERENT STORY .....
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 15,188
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 15,188 |
Quote:
Maybe those that believe this crapola should be aware they are being led by the nose..
after reading what U wrote ..... you've got a lot of gull accusing anyone of being led by the nose ... *LMAO* ...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,531
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,531 |
Quote:
From today's columbus Dispatch:
Columbus Dispatch Article
Browns
Contract length an issue for QB
Thursday, January 31, 2008 3:06 AM
By James Walker
THE COLUMBUS DISPATCH
Neal C. Lauron DISPATCH
Browns quarterback Derek Anderson took over as the starter and embraced the role.
The Cleveland Browns and quarterback Derek Anderson are at least two years apart in contract negotiations, a source told The Dispatch yesterday.
The Browns opened negotiations last week by offering Anderson a three-year deal, but Anderson's representation is seeking a longer term, about five years. The sides hope to reach a deal before free agency opens Feb. 29.
Tony Romo of Dallas and Matt Schaub of Houston are recent gauges for quarterback signings. Romo signed a six-year, $67.5 million contract and Schaub a six-year, $48 million contract.
It's unlikely the Browns would go that high in years or salary with Anderson, especially with Dublin native and former first-round pick Brady Quinn as the backup.
Anderson threw for 3,787 yards and 29 touchdowns with 19 interceptions last season after becoming the starter in the second game. He went 10-5 and was named a Pro Bowl alternate.
Browns general manager Phil Savage said the team will use its highest one-year tender on Anderson, a restricted free agent, if a long-term contract cannot be reached. That would require teams to give Cleveland first- and third-round draft picks to sign Anderson, and the Browns also would have the right to match any offer.
jwalker@dispatch.com
Just as I thought...
No way DA signs a 3 year deal. He'll want 5 minimum and we're not gonna give it to him, IMO.
Translation: Savage is just paying DA lip-service but knows what the "true situation" is. Expect DA to sign the 1st and 3rd tender soon. And before I get an angry response from DA's Defenders (anyone got anything as derogatory as Brats that starts with a D?), we've seen Savage engage in negotiations like this before. If he truly wants a player to sign, he goes after them hard and pays them well. If he doesn't, he lowballs them.
Last edited by Ammo; 01/31/08 10:34 AM.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 2,530
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 2,530 |
Quote:
Expect DA to sign the 1st and 3rd tender soon
There is no way that anyone is going to pony up a 1 and 3 for DA  , not ever. It appears as tho you still haven't sobered up from your B-day Ammo, if you believe that crapola....LMAO Stir the pot..
BTTB
AKA Upbeat Dawg
Can't believe I am in a group that is comprised of the best NOT just fans but people on the planet.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 13,341
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 13,341 |
Quote:
Quote:
and yeah Diam, like it or not I love the wins and 29 TDs.
who the hell wouldn't love the wins and the 29 TD tosses ... I've NEVER BERATED U for that ... now giving DA to much credit thats an entirely DIFFERENT STORY .....
I know you never did - I doubted you even read my football posts haha.
I just saw you mention those two things - wins and 29 TDs - and say they're not all on DA.... which i agree with... but as a QB, they are important things to consider.
gmstrong -----------------
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,531
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,531 |
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 2,530
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 2,530 |
Talk about a play on words. No where that I have found does a player sign a tender he is simply tendered... Quote:
Restricted Free Agent"
From James Alder,
Your Guide to Football.
FREE Newsletter. Sign Up Now!
Definition: A restricted free agent is a player who has received a "qualifying" offer (negotiated in the CBA) from his old club, but is free to negotiate with any club through the free agent signing period. If he accepts an offer sheet from a new club, his old club can match the offer and retain him, or not match the offer and possibly receive draft-choice compensation depending on the amount of its qualifying offer.
If an offer sheet is not executed, the player’s rights revert to his old club after the free agent signing period ends.
Players become restricted free agents when they complete three accrued seasons and their contract expires
And hey I don't do Baileys that crap is for sissies. I like Fruit Loops with VO, that way when i get sick later in the day, I get a light show to go along with my throwing... LOL
Brown to the Bone
BTTB
AKA Upbeat Dawg
Can't believe I am in a group that is comprised of the best NOT just fans but people on the planet.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 15,188
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 15,188 |
Dude ... I dont believe were going to sign DA long term either ... but your just so far off base in your analysis its PITIFUL ... I mean according to your theory we must not want Jamal either cause he isnt signed yet ... HERE'S A FEW FACTS FOR U ... and u can learn life lessons in a few of these if your intelligent enough to open up your mind and listen for a change ... 1. its a NEGOTIATION ... NO ONE EVER OPENS WITH ANYTHING BUT A LOWBALL ... now come 3 days before the deadline to tender DA the offer does not go up or lengthen in years then we have a LOWBALL .. for now all we have is the OPENING OFFER .... 2. Opie does want DA ... PERIOD ... but he wants him on OUR TERMS ... not his .. at least thats my opinion ... and that will BARE OUT OVER THE NEXT WHATEVER number of days and the deadline looms closer ... we'll up our offer but never really come close to what DA's agent is asking .. but make no mistake about it ... OPIE WANTS DA .... but given the ENTIRE SITUATION 3 years is about how long we should be looking at .. given the ENTIRE SITUATION thats the proper amount of years and whats best for THE TEAM ...... now Opie may want DA to trade him if the offer we get is right .. but he wants DA .. oh wait .. THATS GOING TO HAPPEN ANYHOW .. *LOL* .. 3. DA should not sign a 3 year offer at this point .. not unless its for a god awful amount of $$$$$$ .. the iron will never be hotter for DA to strike ... NEVER ... U need to spend more time studying and les time fantazing about the browns ... cause when u do .. HOGWASH is the end result ... how was that Vers?? did i do good??? *LOL* ... lamp .. I need to read the posts of the less knowledgable .. otherwise how would I feed my ego and re-assure myself of how smart I am .... just ask Daman and dawglover .. they'll tell Ya ...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 39,678
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 39,678 |
I agree......in the beginning, both sides talk numbers and terms they known the other side isn't going to take.
In the end.....the Browns are going to up their offer in money and or terms and DA will lower his demands.
Still doesn't mean a deal will be struck, but the final terms will be different than what we see in these initial reports.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,531
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,531 |
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,475
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,475 |
"The biggest one is the accuracy comment. It's crap. All QBs are inaccurate at times. Did you watch the NE/SD game a couple of weeks ago? Did you see Brady's passes? He was way off. Faulk and others baled him out a lot. That isn't a knock on Brady. It's to point out that all QBs make inaccurate throws."
Its statements like that which leads me to believe that you don't know nearly as much about QBs as you think.
JMHO
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 502
All Pro
|
|
All Pro
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 502 |
As the saga continues...   All of us here know jack personally... So don't act like you don't... shep still uses his magic 8 ball... why waste the crystal ball on shep... So you truly expected a fist year starting QB, DA specifically, to come in and lead and unproven offense with a new 0 cord. & scheme and to have a better year than what transpired? Your preseason prognostication showed otherwise... WTHAYTA man... Come on... Many here know what DA's strengths and weaknesses are... We know what yours and mine are too... Weather they improve or not remains to be seen... Who, what, where, why, when and how do you or do you see the Browns upgrading the QB situation for this upcoming off-season??? BQ is who and where he is... We all know that... So come with another solution and cover the 5 W's and the H... My point with BQ is the CS has/had deemed him not ready... He was a rook who held out... He should probably sit another year too... If at all possible. Cold shower anyone? I'm all for open competition to improve any and everybody... But what will anyone else do between now and Sept. to unseat DA after the season he had last year helping the Browns have a very good season? I notice you didn't even acknowledge any of DA's positives that were mentioned in my last reply... That’s the problem with you Diam you are nearly always on only one side of the Ben Franklin... ( That last statement is copyrighted and protected for use in any other forum by law. It is not to be copied, reprinted, plagerisiezed in any ways shape or form ). If you don’t acknowledge or comprehend the opposite side of the BF as well as the side your usually on, how can you speak intelligently about either side? Keep guessing... Just like the rest of us... Your guessing has proven to be no more accurate that most here... And until you see BQ clearly as the starter, he is till the back up... Nobody’s opinion here will change that... Ouch Daman... You don't have to take that... My skirt is orange and brown... How about this for a new thread... Shep trades up from the magic 8-ball to the crystal ball... NICE!!! 
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015 |
Quote:
Just as I thought...
No way DA signs a 3 year deal. He'll want 5 minimum and we're not gonna give it to him, IMO.
Translation: Savage is just paying DA lip-service but knows what the "true situation" is. Expect DA to sign the 1st and 3rd tender soon. And before I get an angry response from DA's Defenders (anyone got anything as derogatory as Brats that starts with a D?), we've seen Savage engage in negotiations like this before. If he truly wants a player to sign, he goes after them hard and pays them well. If he doesn't, he lowballs them.
You've painted the picture as truly black and white man, but that isn't the case.
This is nothing close to "lip service." You simply don't make contract offers if you have zero intention of wanting a player. That just isn't done in the NFL when it comes to productive players, and like it or not, Anderson was productive last year.
The three year contract is what Savage thinks DA is worth. That's a simplified way to say that the length and money (which we don't know about yet) fit with his gameplan because Quinn is sitting in the wings. Anderson won't go for a short-term deal. He wants the SECURITY of a long-term deal. The signing bonus is probably not enough with a 3-year contract, where-as the money is much better with a 5-year deal. They may settle on a 4-year deal with the 4th year being essentially a dummy year that carries something stupid like a $9 million dollar salary, serving no other purpose than to give DA some more money and a means to spread the cap hit out.
As he should, Savage wants DA to have first crack at the job. He earned that much, even if I don't think he can substantially improve, which he needs to do. But Savage also knows this, which is why Quinn is here in the first place.
The bottom line here is that Savage wants a contract that gives Anderson a deserved raise, but lets the team transition to Quinn easily if need be. Anderson will want more money and guarantees than that, because he doesn't want to be a lame-duck QB, nor should he.
I can see a four-year contract that's easy to get out of, but if I were Andersons representitives, I'm aiming higher. Even if Anderson loses the job to Quinn after signing the tender, he's still likely to get the current three-year deal out on the open market after the '08 season.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,531
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,531 |
Quote:
The bottom line here is that Savage wants a contract that gives Anderson a deserved raise, but lets the team transition to Quinn easily if need be. Anderson will want more money and guarantees than that, because he doesn't want to be a lame-duck QB, nor should he.
Exactly...
Lip-service was a bit harsh, I'll admit to that. I know Savage wants to keep DA on his terms and not DA's.
But that's essentially why I drew it out to be more black and white than it "truly is."
DA's perspective: "I'm the QB of this team. Lock me up long term for a lot of dollars for a lot of years."
Savage's perspective: "He had a great year but tapered off at the end, shows a lot of promise but a lot of concern as well...we also have this kid who's shown nothing but good things waiting in the wings...we can't offer a big contract nor a long term contract, let's be reasonable and see what happens."
Does it really seem like negotiations will actually succeed? To me it seems like we don't have a chance in hell of signing DA under "our terms" which is why I said it was "lip-service" (probably a poor choice of words).
In our recent history, it's been very clear whether or not we've wanted to keep a player at all costs, or "We'd like to have you here but this program can move on without you."
DA falls under the latter this offseason at least, if he steps up his game next year then the ball is very clearly in DA's court when it comes to negotiations.
Here's my bottom line: If we wanted to keep DA as our long-term starter, we would be offering a 5-6 year deal immediately. I'm focusing more on the years than the financial figures at this point.
It also wouldn't surprise me if the initial offer was a "series of 1 year deals" that included roster bonuses to protect us.
If DA is a "franchise QB," you don't negotiate that way. That's my main point, and the vibes I'm feeling are that we're not negotiating with him like a franchise QB.
Last edited by Ammo; 01/31/08 03:31 PM.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 95
Practice Squad
|
|
Practice Squad
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 95 |
J/K... I haven't seen the $ part of DA's offer posted yet: Browns | Anderson receives contract offer Thu, 31 Jan 2008 10:52:44 -0800 Tony Grossi, of The Plain Dealer, reports the Cleveland Browns offered QB Derek Anderson a three-year deal worth $15-20 million. Anderson did not sound enthusiastic when asked about the offer. "I'm not going to complain about it. But obviously our guys are on another (level). I'm just letting them kind of deal with it," Anderson told The Plain Dealer at the Super Bowl. web page
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015 |
Quote:
Does it really seem like negotiations will actually succeed? To me it seems like we don't have a chance in hell of signing DA under "our terms" which is why I said it was "lip-service" (probably a poor choice of words).
I think we do, and explained it in an earlier post where I said that it depends on how DA views himself in this deal. If he thinks he's going to be a superstar, he'll decline fair money, prove himself in '08, and hit the jackpot going into the offseason. If he doesn't, he may be content in taking a nice signing bonus and letting the chips fall where they may.
This is going to sound very unfair, but DA strikes me as a none-too-bright country-boy who's going to let his agent do most of the decision making. But if he really calls the shots, he's more likely to take a lesser deal because let's face it, seeing a situation where you sign your name and get handed a check for $10 million is a tough deal to pass up.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,531
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,531 |
Quote:
Quote:
Does it really seem like negotiations will actually succeed? To me it seems like we don't have a chance in hell of signing DA under "our terms" which is why I said it was "lip-service" (probably a poor choice of words).
I think we do, and explained it in an earlier post where I said that it depends on how DA views himself in this deal. If he thinks he's going to be a superstar, he'll decline fair money, prove himself in '08, and hit the jackpot going into the offseason. If he doesn't, he may be content in taking a nice signing bonus and letting the chips fall where they may.
This is going to sound very unfair, but DA strikes me as a none-too-bright country-boy who's going to let his agent do most of the decision making. But if he really calls the shots, he's more likely to take a lesser deal because let's face it, seeing a situation where you sign your name and get handed a check for $10 million is a tough deal to pass up.
And I think he views himself as "I proved I was a Pro Bowl Alternate last year...pay me as such."
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015 |
And he probably does, hehe.
But with the wildcard in Quinn being there, he's lost all that leverage, and he and his agent know it. Because of that, I think a compromise on his part is probably in order, which is why I think a shorter-term deal is still in play.
In the end, I'm still leaning towards us just slappin' the tender on him and letting.....no, forcing......him to prove himself.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
|
|
|
DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Crennel extension/ DA and JLewis
talks
|
|
