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Oh, and Navy. . . . to say that "if it weren't for slavery, you wouldn't be here" is a fallacy of presumption, non causa pro causa. You should try and eliminate that from your rhetoric.
Not at all. It pretty much would be the case whether you would like to accept it or not.
[b]USNavyDawg (Ret.) ![[Linked Image from i87.photobucket.com]](http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k155/brownsfan4173/NFL-Football.jpg)
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I had nothing to do with you, you're older than I am.
Thats why I said "People like yourself"
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I've never told you what you could and could not refer to yourself as. I've never told you say that black people should be grateful for slavery.
I have never told you what you could or could not refer to yourself as either. I said it is DUMB to refer to yourself as African American. You are American.
Never said you should be grateful. I said just told you why you are here. YOU used the term grateful, must be something in the back of your mind.
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I have nothing to do with your racial biases as you've never met me or spent time with me.
Ditto
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I don't know you, all I know about you is you seem to think that I can't call myself African-American,
Again, never said: "You can't call yourself that.", just pointed out to you how dumb it is.
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and that I should thank my lucky stars that some African sold my ancestors to some European and now I've got the great fortune of living in America.
Funny thing is, you can't actually deny it.
[b]USNavyDawg (Ret.)
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I don't want to be a part of whatever world Navy comes from...that's my point. I can control that.
No you actually can't contol that, that world is everywhere.
Go Irish!
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I feel it would be a much more peaceful world if we had white land, black land, yellow land, brown land....Christian land, Islam land, Jewish land etc.
In theory, I believe it is a decent point to ponder... in practicality, I doubt it would work. Because white land might have the gold and diamond mines, yellow land might have the agricultural capability, Jewish land might have the vacation amenities, and then of course somebodys land is going to have the oil... and in the end, people are going to be jealous of what the others have... few if any will do business in good faith, governments will become corrupt, people will be repressed by their own "kind", some will want to get out and start over....... and we will end up right back where we started.
yebat' Putin
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Quote:
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I feel it would be a much more peaceful world if we had white land, black land, yellow land, brown land....Christian land, Islam land, Jewish land etc.
In theory, I believe it is a decent point to ponder... in practicality, I doubt it would work. Because white land might have the gold and diamond mines, yellow land might have the agricultural capability, Jewish land might have the vacation amenities, and then of course somebodys land is going to have the oil... and in the end, people are going to be jealous of what the others have... few if any will do business in good faith, governments will become corrupt, people will be repressed by their own "kind", some will want to get out and start over....... and we will end up right back where we started.
yeah, but it would be a good 2 weeks before all that happens. 
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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I don't want to be a part of whatever world Navy comes from...that's my point. I can control that.
No you actually can't contol that, that world is everywhere.
I can choose not to participate in that world
"My country is the world, and my religion is to do good" Thomas Paine
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I feel it would be a much more peaceful world if we had white land, black land, yellow land, brown land....Christian land, Islam land, Jewish land etc.
In theory, I believe it is a decent point to ponder... in practicality, I doubt it would work. Because white land might have the gold and diamond mines, yellow land might have the agricultural capability, Jewish land might have the vacation amenities, and then of course somebodys land is going to have the oil... and in the end, people are going to be jealous of what the others have... few if any will do business in good faith, governments will become corrupt, people will be repressed by their own "kind", some will want to get out and start over....... and we will end up right back where we started.
That has always been the problem...trying to mix and match.
If other lands didn't have resources of value, there'd be no interest in them...the colonialization of African nations would've never happened if Africa wasn't rich with the most natural resources of any other continent.
Just a reminder that if we respected each others differences, we might be able to have fair trade...aside from greep and power of course.
"My country is the world, and my religion is to do good" Thomas Paine
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I bet there's a black kid somewhere that wants to be a ref, and will look at this and say "Hey, I can do this!"
From that standpoint, it's worth noting that a black Ref is getting to the Super Bowl for the first time.
From where I'm sitting, it's FAR more important for the black community (notice I don't say African-american, because black people don't just come from Africa) to see that they can become something better, if they just put their minds to it.
To me, the slavery stuff and reparations crap is dead. Life isn't fair. Slavery was an abomination, but I don't owe anyone anything for what happened. If my dad was fired from his job that drove him to madness that left me without a home, I'm not going to take it out on the company that canned him. The ONLY choice for me is to do whatever I need to do to move forward in life and become a better person.
I know I'm going down a tough road here and weaving off on a tangent, but IMHO, even though I've never lived that life, the best way to reach the impoverish communities is to grass-roots the thing and help them help themselves.
So coming full circle, if just one kid see's Carey and realizes he can be more tomorrow than what he is today, this story is well-worth noting.
Having said that, Carey irritates me as a ref  I find his emphatic gesticulation to be insufferable and contrived. There IS no better Ref than Ed Hochulli, but if Carey grades even with him, he should get the nod because of what it can mean to the black community.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Blacks wouldn't have had such a problem with whites if they weren't enslaved and treated inhumanly...
And they still are to this day in many parts of the African continent. The only difference is that it isn't "whites" doing it.
Going back into the history of human slavery, and into the present..... and specifically relating to African human slavery, many times it has been African warlords who sold other Africans into slavery. (European, American, and others)
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Muslims wouldn't hate the Western world if we didn't bomb and oppress their people...
OK ..... leading into the Iraq/Afghanistan situations, what examples do you have?
The Middle East was divided up largely as a result of the fall of the Ottoman Empire following WWI. There was no "Palestine" .... no "Syria" ..... no "Lebannon" ...... there were merely states of the wide ranging Ottoman Empire.
Lebannon is a predominantly Christian country. It has been used by Syria as a staging ground for attacks ..... but cannot be called Muslim.
I don't recall attacking Jordan lately.
When is the last time US fighter planes flew over Egypt?
So ... how is it that we "bomb and oppress their people?
How about Turkey?
Saudi Arabia?
Pakistan?
Kuwait?
Algeria?
Bahrain?
Morocco?
Qatar?
Sudan? I mean ..... surely we must be the cause in the part of the Muslim world with the highest per capita death and suffering quotient?
If you really want to tell the truth, you'll acknowledge that it isn't the US, or the west who does the most damage to Muslim peoples. It is Muslim leaders and Muslim warlords who rose to power who do the most damage to Muslims.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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What ndutyme said is somewhat brazen, but did you guys consider he was responding to this quote from USNavy?
But I could still give a crap about the first black this or that. The sooner you and those like you assimilate yourselves into society, the sooner racism will die.
I am not black and I found that comment, as well as many of his comments, very offensive.
While I don't agree w/ndutyme's comment, I can certainly understand why he was angered and appalled by such a hateful comment.
But....carry on.
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us."
--Ralph Waldo Emerson
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What ndutyme said is somewhat brazen, but did you guys consider he was responding to this quote from USNavy?
But I could still give a crap about the first black this or that. The sooner you and those like you assimilate yourselves into society, the sooner racism will die.
I am not black and I found that comment, as well as many of his comments, very offensive.
While I don't agree w/ndutyme's comment, I can certainly understand why he was angered and appalled by such a hateful comment.
But....carry on.
What is hateful about my comment?
[b]USNavyDawg (Ret.)
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Dude I refuse to believe that you are that ignorant (not name calling, but a condition) that you do not realize that a lot of the posts you made here and on the Dr. King thread were not hateful, classless, and generally offensive. Your either purposefully pushing your "agenda" and then hiding behind the curtain of "who me?"..........ie...playing ignorant............or you really are horribly ignorant (their again not a name, but a condition) I believe it's the first one. Oh and I am a white guy too so you can't say that I haven't assimilated into society...lol.
Against logic,the most effective armor is willful ignorance.
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I bet there's a black kid somewhere that wants to be a ref, and will look at this and say "Hey, I can do this!"
From that standpoint, it's worth noting that a black Ref is getting to the Super Bowl for the first time.
I agree
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From where I'm sitting, it's FAR more important for the black community (notice I don't say African-american, because black people don't just come from Africa) to see that they can become something better, if they just put their minds to it.
Again, I agree
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To me, the slavery stuff and reparations crap is dead. Life isn't fair. Slavery was an abomination, but I don't owe anyone anything for what happened. If my dad was fired from his job that drove him to madness that left me without a home, I'm not going to take it out on the company that canned him. The ONLY choice for me is to do whatever I need to do to move forward in life and become a better person.
This is starting to get old. I agree.
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I know I'm going down a tough road here and weaving off on a tangent, but IMHO, even though I've never lived that life, the best way to reach the impoverish communities is to grass-roots the thing and help them help themselves.
Damn, will you say something I feel is wrong?
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So coming full circle, if just one kid see's Carey and realizes he can be more tomorrow than what he is today, this story is well-worth noting.
I would like to hit on one other thing Diam said...Promoting people of color or genderis plain wrong. Forget about what's fair or not, putting someone in a position to fail makes it even more difficult for others to succeed in the eyes of the masses. Promoting a woman to a position of authority who can't do the job only gives ammo to those who are against the concept to begin with.
#gmstrong
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Promoting a woman to a position of authority who can't do the job only gives ammo to those who are against the concept to begin with.
Like me?  
yebat' Putin
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I don't want to be a part of whatever world Navy comes from...that's my point. I can control that.
No you actually can't contol that, that world is everywhere.
I can choose not to participate in that world
And here you are.
Go Irish!
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Promoting a woman to a position of authority who can't do the job only gives ammo to those who are against the concept to begin with.
Like me?
I think you understand what I'm saying. 
I'm talking about Jules.
#gmstrong
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Promoting a woman to a position of authority who can't do the job only gives ammo to those who are against the concept to begin with.
Like me?
I think you understand what I'm saying.
I'm talking about Jules.
And I'm laughing all the way to the bank. 
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Have I asked you to marry me this month yet?
#gmstrong
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and somewhere, there is a more qualified man who can't feed his children.
yebat' Putin
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Blah, blah, blah. Pdawg: No, you haven't and it's getting late!
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Having said that, Carey irritates me as a ref I find his emphatic gesticulation to be insufferable and contrived.
that has nothing to do with how good of a Ref he is ... NOTHING ... do u want a Ref that does a GREAT JOB on the filed or do U want a guy that is more "mellow" and more to your liking????
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There IS no better Ref than Ed Hochulli, but if Carey grades even with him, he should get the nod because of what it can mean to the black community.
Ed is in the top 3 also ... he is a GREAT REF ..... prolly grades in the same vicinity as carey year in and year out .. may be slightly higher or lower depending on the year and the situations that arose in their games ... but at the end of the day bro ... he is not going to do EVERY SUPERBOWL regardless of weatehr he grades out the highest or not ...
the SB Ref is not picked by the higest rating ... U need to be upper echelon but not the highest rated ....
weather U like it or not .. CAREY DESERVES TO BE THERE and has PROVEN OVER TIME to be one OUTSTANDING REF ... one of the best 3 in the business ... and again .. that has zero to do with his gesterculation or what ever the hell that word was .. *L* ..
P .. funny U should bring up putting someone in a position to fail ... that is exactly what the NFL did with that other black Ref .. he was only officiating ont he NFL level for 2 years and they made him a Ref .. WHAT A JOKE ... and boy did they ever set him up to fail and he has done just that ... hes BRUTAL ... and he gets rewarded with a playoff game ... thats a JOKE ...
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As far as I could tell, the owners aren't complaining about the Rooney rule, only the know-it-all fans are.
Dude....  Can you even fathom the backlash if a team came right out and said they weren't going to abide by this rule? It's walking on eggshells anyway you slice it.
If i'm a business owner and i'm interviewing it will be the best person for the job every step of the way regardless of race, creed or gender. To be given opportunity based on being in a minority group and not necessarily on merit is bogus IMO.
I'm pretty much with Deisle and Toad on this issue btw. If this ref is the bonafide best out there then he deserves the job. He doesn't deserve it on the colour of his skin and it shouldn't have been announced with such a bleedin' fanfare.
Like a previous poster said, if it hadn't have been raised and circulated who would've gave a crap?
#gmstrong
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weather U like it or not .. CAREY DESERVES TO BE THERE and has PROVEN OVER TIME to be one OUTSTANDING REF ... one of the best 3 in the business
Good enough for me. Race shouldn't even be an issue. Job based on merit is ticking the boxes in Riddler's eyes. As long as he doesn't refer to himself in the third person then Riddler says "cool".
#gmstrong
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As far as I could tell, the owners aren't complaining about the Rooney rule, only the know-it-all fans are.
Unfortunately, the Rooney Rule has created a situation where one coach is presumed to be the pre-emptive choice for a particular position ...... yet some black coaches have to either be put in the position of "token" interview, or refuse the interview entirely.
This doesn't happen everytime a position opens ..... but look at the situation when Mariucci was hired in Detroit ... and everyone with a brain knew he was the guy ... yet black assistants had to suffer the indignity of being asked to be a "quota filler" interview.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Nobody said he gets to do the SB because he's black...NOBODY!  I don't know why people are making such a big deal about this.
"My country is the world, and my religion is to do good" Thomas Paine
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Which makes you wonder what the hell the point of the whole thing is. I mean, Tomlin of the Steelers wasn't targetted because he was black. He was targetted because the Steelers thought he was their man. I seriously doubt that the Steelers were going any other way and this black fella they were forced to interview blew them away.  The tokenism from this rule is pointless and derisory. If a team thinks the best coach for the job happens to be black then he's gonna get hired....for god's sake stop calling Mo Carthon because you're forced to...
#gmstrong
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As I understand it, it was similar to that
"My country is the world, and my religion is to do good" Thomas Paine
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I don't know why people are making such a big deal about this.
I don't either - as far as the fact that a black man will be "ref'ing" for the first time.
However, in my opinion, where this thread took a turn into what it has become is way back on page 1. Poster number 2. The second post by that person, post number 4 in this thread, brought slavery into it.
As I replied "slavery has nothing to do with this", or something to that effect, and boom, off it went. And, as with most all "racism" threads, it went from there.
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Nobody said he gets to do the SB because he's black...NOBODY!
Really?
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There IS no better Ref than Ed Hochulli, but if Carey grades even with him, he should get the nod because of what it can mean to the black community.
Maybe i read it wrong. I agree wholeheartedly with the rest of Toad's post but i wouldn't use skin colour as a deciding factor in a dead heat.....i hear coin flips are popular around here. 
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I don't know why people are making such a big deal about this.
Because people are. If the title of this thread had said:
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Carey to referee Superbowl
.....then i doubt i would've even opened the sucker.
Incidentally, the thread title i gave is a much better choice IMO.
#gmstrong
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Having said that, Carey irritates me as a ref I find his emphatic gesticulation to be insufferable and contrived.
that has nothing to do with how good of a Ref he is ... NOTHING ... do u want a Ref that does a GREAT JOB on the filed or do U want a guy that is more "mellow" and more to your liking????
I think his emphatic gesticulation is ridiculous as well....but I do know if he has to go under the hood he will get it right. I also know his crew will call a fair game, and that he has control over a crew. And that's your job as a ref......
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I don't know why people are making such a big deal about this.
I don't either - as far as the fact that a black man will be "ref'ing" for the first time.
However, in my opinion, where this thread took a turn into what it has become is way back on page 1. Poster number 2. The second post by that person, post number 4 in this thread, brought slavery into it.
As I replied "slavery has nothing to do with this", or something to that effect, and boom, off it went. And, as with most all "racism" threads, it went from there.
Actually it began with the thread title, and the remarks from the original poster after he posted the article......and he was one to slam others for doing the same thing that he did.
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ndutyme....we don't often agree on political ideas, but this Carey has been an excellent ref for years and is recognized for his work not his skin color.
I must take issue with the point about having to respect cultural differences in America. The idea of diversity has been hailed as the reason for the success of America over the last 250 years...I disagree, the right to personal freedom-liberty- is the main strength in America.
While the right to practice certain customs associated with countries of origin should always be allowed...they cannot conflict with our own heritage or laws.
Your right to be free is no more important than my right to be free from you!
The American people will never knowingly adopt Socialism. But under the name of 'liberalism' they will adopt every fragment of the Socialist program, .
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you do not realize that a lot of the posts you made here and on the Dr. King thread were not hateful, classless, and generally offensive.
I agree 100%, the posts I made here and on the Dr. King thread were not hateful, classless, and generally offensive.
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Your either purposefully pushing your "agenda" and then hiding behind the curtain of "who me?"..........ie...playing ignorant............
Please do tell what my agenda is.
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Oh and I am a white guy too so you can't say that I haven't assimilated into society...lol.
Sure I can, obviously you haven't. I never said society = white people. You did.
[b]USNavyDawg (Ret.)
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I oftentimes wonder if people can read?
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[b]USNavyDawg (Ret.)
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I disagree.
The funny thing is I understand why....I guess I can't say I agree with what I said about a segregated society in total either...it was more a comment....sort of throwing the hands up and saying i don't have the answers.
I understand there will always be some blending of cultures.....drawing lines isn't always in black and white(no pun intended)...there is some crossover.
I suppose we are doing the best we can.
Relations didn't really start to mix on at least a fairly equal basis until the 70's....the first generation of kids are in their 20's and 30's....products of boomers whose parents grew up in a very segregated society.......now those kids are more tolerant than the parents...and they are now having children who in theory will be even more tolerant....a few more generations and maybe we will have a pretty good deal going.......
Who knows....I will just keep doing what I have always done. I try to be fair and respectful to everyone no matter their make-up and be as fair as I can, and that is what I tried to instill in my kids even though I don't really like black culture and I try to avoid it where I can.
It isn't hate by any means....simply a choice....if some want to label it ignorance...so be it.
It isn't so much the culture......maybe the attitude. My next door neighbor is a black man....great guy, we talk all the time......but he seems to have settled into to a nice blend of fitting in to a social balance.
It's one thing to support your culture. It is another to be a likable person.
Here in the south there are plenty of people who still enjoy flying the confederate flag...I avoid most of them too. They generally aren't the type of people I want to associate with to any significant degree......but I still treat them with respect.
For a few, it is indeed a cultural thing just as it is with some black folks. For the majority, it is some sort of cause. And people with a cause generally have some sort of ax to grind.
Once the ax is put away, possibly more can be done.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,093
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,093 |
Quote:
Quote:
Oh, and Navy. . . . to say that "if it weren't for slavery, you wouldn't be here" is a fallacy of presumption, non causa pro causa. You should try and eliminate that from your rhetoric.
Not at all. It pretty much would be the case whether you would like to accept it or not.
What I do not accept is your argument of false cause. It is not false because it is impossible, it is false because you cannot establish the connection. If you cannot do that, then the device is invalid and adds no weight to your larger point. That is the way it is whether YOU want to accept it or not.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,093
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,093 |
I agree with what you are saying about tolerance progressing by generation. I think that is the way most things work in the collective of humanity, a construct of connectivity where a change in part brings about an effect on the whole. The more intense the change, the greater the effect. The dying of a generation is a massive change in the collective, especially in relation to paradigm shifts. Personally, this has given me a fatalistic worldview, a "whatever happens, happens" mindset. Is this similar to the way you view things?
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,267
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,267 |
After 1 Martini, I am not sure! No doubt things change with the loss of a generation.....probably more like every 4 generations of people...each generation is probably half a change in half the people. Sooner or later it will.....but pushing can retard the process....it will always be too fast for some and too slow for others. Like I said.....I don't have all the answers.....if I did, I would rule.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 14,563
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 14,563 |
Quote:
Why didn't u answer my question?
Are you not surprised at all that there has never been a Black Ref in the super bowl?
I am surprised, but I also don't care that much... as long as he's a fair and deserving ref I'm happy... it's kind of like Dungy last year being the first black head coach to win it... I could care less about him being black, but was ecstatic that he won because he was such an outstanding individual and a class act.
Unfortunately you can't take race out of everything... people who say that "i don't see skin color" are lying to themselves... however, when you use skin color as your basis of judgement is where you get into trouble.
<><
#gmstrong
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Forums DawgTalk Tailgate Forum Carey to be first black referee in
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