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I could care less about him being black,
I see this statement alot. It bothers me because the meaning is ambiguous. I believe your intentions are good, but to regard it as insignificant shows a lack of respect for history. Now I am not saying this specifically to you, jay; I just pulled your comment out of context to make a larger point. I would venture to say that if some posters knew more about the history of slavery and life for blacks since then, they would be more sensitive in their comments. Perhaps it is unnecessary to focus this level of attention on the "first black" this or that, but it is even more unnecessary for people to start posting how they "don't give a crap" about any of this. If that were the case, why post such comments. Obviously, these posters are not as apathetic about it as they claim which leads me to question why they say some of the things they say.
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Talk about taking stuff out of context.....wow. 
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Talk about taking stuff out of context.....wow.
Do you mean jaybird's comment? Yeah, I admitted that already.  But if you are refering to my remarks on that comment in general, then I think I made a valid point.
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Quote:
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I could care less about him being black,
I see this statement alot. It bothers me because the meaning is ambiguous. I believe your intentions are good, but to regard it as insignificant shows a lack of respect for history. Now I am not saying this specifically to you, jay; I just pulled your comment out of context to make a larger point. I would venture to say that if some posters knew more about the history of slavery and life for blacks since then, they would be more sensitive in their comments. Perhaps it is unnecessary to focus this level of attention on the "first black" this or that, but it is even more unnecessary for people to start posting how they "don't give a crap" about any of this. If that were the case, why post such comments. Obviously, these posters are not as apathetic about it as they claim which leads me to question why they say some of the things they say.
Is it totally beyond your comprehension that I could, in fact, not care about his race? Is that totally incomprehensible to you? His race means nothing to me. The race of the other officials means nothing to me.
Now, to whoever it was that said something to the effect of "...people that say they don't see color are liars".........you would be correct - in a literal sense. But, concerning me - archbolddawq - the underlying impression is we treat someone different because of their color - and that's a crock.
Literally, when I see a black person, yes, the first thing I notice is they are black. The first thing they notice about me is that I am not. End of story.
Believe it or not, when I first meet a woman, I happen to notice that they are a woman. (most of the time anyway - it's getting tougher these days). Do I treat them differently? I sure don't think so.
So, whoever said it, yes, you are correct in one sense: I see the sex, or color of a person. My question is, why is it so incomprehensible to you that it does not effect the way I deal with that person? 
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Believe it or not, when I first meet a woman, I happen to notice that they are a woman
Is that a polite way of saying you size up their breasts?? 
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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I'm a guy.
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Is it totally beyond your comprehension that I could, in fact, not care about his race?
No, it is not beyond my comprehension. I believe you when you say you do not care about race.
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His race means nothing to me. The race of the other officials means nothing to me.
This is where I see a problem. You are making the judgment that a white person and a black person are categorical equivalents. Now this is what we ultimately want, but I fear some of us have jumped the gun and are claiming victory over racism prematurely. You see, what I was originally trying to say was not that posters who say they do not care about race are lying, I was saying that people who say such things are unaware that there is still a problem. You may disagree that there is a problem, but this thread should be evidence enough that we as a society have not quite arrived.
I do not doubt your sincerity when you say race has nothing to do with how you treat an individual. But I am not talking about particulars. What I am saying is that, when speaking of the black race in general, many of us (in the name of equality) have claimed victory over a problem that is still there.
And if George Bush has taught us anything, it is that declaring victory before the war is over does not make the problem go away. 
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Great post Arch...not the i'm a guy one..the other one. 
#gmstrong
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This is where I see a problem. You are making the judgment that a white person and a black person are categorical equivalents.
Holy cow - sorry. I didn't know that I did that. I'm not sure what that exactly means, but I didn't mean to actually insinuate that blacks and whites are equal. I mean, honestly I DIDN'T mean to insinuate it, I meant to say it outright. But somehow that is wrong?
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Now this is what we ultimately want, but I fear some of us have jumped the gun and are claiming victory over racism prematurely.
I never claimed overall victory.
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j/c
Unbelievable. 5 pages... and no sign of fatigue.
Until we run out of categories of daily living in which it's possible that a person of ethnicity can be "the first," their accomplishments will be noted.
No problem with it for me- for a couple reasons:
1. We live in a society that celebrates "firsts" anyway. Charles Lindberg (aviator), Sir Edmund Hillary (mountain climber/adventurer), Matthew Henson (first Black @ the North Pole), Christian Barnard (first successful heart transplant surgeon), the Wright Bros (inventors), Jackie Robinson (athlete) et al are noted for being the first of their kind to accomplish something. It's just our way. If Mike Carey is "the first" in this regard, it's worthy of note, for the same reasons. Anything we make of it afterwards reflects upon US- not the man, the society in which he lives, or even the news agency that broke the story. This appallingly long and heated thread bears that out.
2. Anytime there is another "first" like this, it makes the list of necessary "firsts" that much shorter. The homogenous society, where all folks are regarded by who they are/what they do rather than what they are is still some ways off. Ticking off "the firsts" is one of many possible ways to get there. Having fewer "firsts" is a good thing... because that opens the door for seconds, and thirds, and 15,000ths... and that's social progress.
To that end, I don't have a problem with hearing news stories that tell me someone was the first Asian-American to get a college hockey scholarship, the first Hispanic-American to become president of the Harvard Law Review, or the first European-American to lean how to snap his fingers on beats 2 and 4 when listening to Jazz. In my book, all are (or will be) noteworthy.
Mike Carey is a very good ref. He also happens to be Black. He's the first Black man to hold the distinction of reffing a SB. The combination of those 3 facts is what makes this story. What loads this story with enough emotion to fuel FIVE PAGES of bandwidth is us... and what we all do with those facts. Maybe we should be the real story instead, eh?
As for Clemdawg? I think it's cool that he got the gig, and that we get to read about it. I'm a student of history enough to love that Paul Brown brought in Bill Willis and Marion Motley to our very own Cleveland Browns, thereby breaking the "color barrier" in the NFL. That was newsworthy then- and is now an important part of history. It makes me just that much prouder to be a Browns fan, and adds distinction to my favorite team's history- a history that I am a part of. To diminish the importance of MC being the first is to disregard an important piece of the history of the present-day NFL. 2008 was the year it happened- Mike Carey is the face of that change... a change which we were here to witness and be a part of, as fans of the NFL.
I appreciated reading this article, because it does have historical importance and present-day relevance. It represents both a cultural milestone and a feel-good story about an individual who's earned a real honor. To me, that's a positive- no matter HOW you slice it.
Well... that's my story, and I'm sticking to it. It's up to you snarlingass Dawgs to make of it what you will.
02,
Clemdawg
p.s. threads like this one are why very few of my posts end up in the Tailgate. I like some of you a lot more when we're just talking football.
"too many notes, not enough music-"
#GMStong
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Having said that, Carey irritates me as a ref I find his emphatic gesticulation to be insufferable and contrived.
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that has nothing to do with how good of a Ref he is ... NOTHING ...
You mean how my comment has nothing to do with how good of a ref he is, despite the fact that it....you know.....never was intended to speak of how good a ref he is? 
Seems that you're arguing a point with me when I didn't dispute anything
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but at the end of the day bro ... he is not going to do EVERY SUPERBOWL regardless of weatehr he grades out the highest or not ...
Nor should he (unless he really blows them all away by a long margin, in which case the league needs to look in mirror to determine why they are failing, hehe).
As I noted, if Carey grades out even with Big Ed, he should get the nod because of what he can mean to the black community.
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weather U like it or not .. CAREY DESERVES TO BE THERE
I like the weather just fine
As for Carey, his mannerisms are designed to incite the crowd...either for good or ill....which I don't think needs to be part of the game, though I don't believe that my opinion on his gestures reflect my opinion on his credibility as a Ref.
But you knew that allready, didn't you
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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This is where I see a problem. You are making the judgment that a white person and a black person are categorical equivalents.
No he didn't. He made the judgement that a black ref is no different than a white ref on the field... will they get the same interest rate when they go to buy a car? Who knows, but on the field, they each have a whistle and a flag and the ability to use it. From what I see, he made no overall categorical comments at all... at least not in his last post.
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You see, what I was originally trying to say was not that posters who say they do not care about race are lying, I was saying that people who say such things are unaware that there is still a problem.
Again.. no, they are saying they do not have a problem, not that a problem does not exist.. Some people just choose to not dwell on the problem.
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I do not doubt your sincerity when you say race has nothing to do with how you treat an individual. But I am not talking about particulars. What I am saying is that, when speaking of the black race in general, many of us (in the name of equality) have claimed victory over a problem that is still there.
I think what most of us have claimed is individual victory... and societal improvement. I'm pretty sure everybody in this thread would concede that racism, to some degree, still exists... and it is not the sole property of any one particular race.
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And if George Bush has taught us anything, it is that declaring victory before the war is over does not make the problem go away.
Ok.. to continue with your political analogy... if the democrats have taught us anything, it is that constantly focusing on the problems, without ever acknowledging the successes, also paints an inaccurate picture of reality.. and it leaves everybody feeling pretty crappy.
yebat' Putin
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I could care less about him being black,
I see this statement alot. It bothers me because the meaning is ambiguous. I believe your intentions are good, but to regard it as insignificant shows a lack of respect for history. Now I am not saying this specifically to you, jay; I just pulled your comment out of context to make a larger point. I would venture to say that if some posters knew more about the history of slavery and life for blacks since then, they would be more sensitive in their comments. Perhaps it is unnecessary to focus this level of attention on the "first black" this or that, but it is even more unnecessary for people to start posting how they "don't give a crap" about any of this. If that were the case, why post such comments. Obviously, these posters are not as apathetic about it as they claim which leads me to question why they say some of the things they say.
As I pointed out back on page two "The fact of the matter is the guy is going to be a Ref in his first super bowl, adding the BLACK comment just promotes racism. "
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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1. We live in a society that celebrates "firsts" anyway. Charles Lindberg (aviator), Sir Edmund Hillary (mountain climber/adventurer), Matthew Henson (first Black @ the North Pole), Christian Barnard (first successful heart transplant surgeon), the Wright Bros (inventors), Jackie Robinson (athlete) et al are noted for being the first of their kind to accomplish something. It's just our way. If Mike Carey is "the first" in this regard, it's worthy of note, for the same reasons. Anything we make of it afterwards reflects upon US- not the man, the society in which he lives, or even the news agency that broke the story. This appallingly long and heated thread bears that out.
Ahhh, and with that, the flaw in your logic...
Charles Lindberg - Aviator, not "White" aviator.
Sir Edmund Hillary - mountain climber/adventurer, not "white" mountain climber/adventurer
Matthew Henson (first Black @ the North Pole)
Christian Barnard (first successful heart transplant surgeon) not first "white" successful heart transplant surgeon
the Wright Bros (inventors) not "white" inventors
Jackie Robinson - first Black player in major league baseball
Kinda funny isn't it...
The white people are the first "person" to do this or that. Almost as if it is expected.
The black people are the first "black person" to do this or that, as if it is amazing.
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I don't have a problem with hearing news stories that tell me someone was the first Asian-American to get a college hockey scholarship, the first Hispanic-American to become president of the Harvard Law Review, or the first European-American to lean how to snap his fingers on beats 2 and 4 when listening to Jazz. In my book, all are (or will be) noteworthy.
I'm sure you don't have a problem with it since you know it will not be something you will hear about. Why? Because, "Asian-Americans", "Hispanic-Americans", "European- Americans" do not feel the need to point out something that ANY RACE could accomplish. "African-Americans" seem to feel the need to celebrate ANYTHING that a "African-American" accomplishes, even though it could be done by ANY race and has been done before uncelebrated by other races. Kinda pathetic.
[b]USNavyDawg (Ret.) ![[Linked Image from i87.photobucket.com]](http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k155/brownsfan4173/NFL-Football.jpg)
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j/c
Unbelievable. 5 pages... and no sign of fatigue.
Until we run out of categories of daily living in which it's possible that a person of ethnicity can be "the first," their accomplishments will be noted.
You may be right about that, but let me ask everyone this. Do you think we would ever see this headline.
"Ching to be first Chinese referee in Super Bowl?"
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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j/c
Unbelievable. 5 pages... and no sign of fatigue.
Until we run out of categories of daily living in which it's possible that a person of ethnicity can be "the first," their accomplishments will be noted.
You may be right about that, but let me ask everyone this. Do you think we would ever see this headline.
"Ching to be first Chinese referee in Super Bowl?"
In a word, No.
Thats exactly what I am talking about.
[b]USNavyDawg (Ret.)
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This is where I see a problem. You are making the judgment that a white person and a black person are categorical equivalents.
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No he didn't. He made the judgement that a black ref is no different than a white ref on the field... will they get the same interest rate when they go to buy a car? Who knows, but on the field, they each have a whistle and a flag and the ability to use it. From what I see, he made no overall categorical comments at all... at least not in his last post.
First, please allow me to restate something. When I said "a white person and a black person are not categorical equivalents" I was breaking my own rule and dealing with particulars. There are many instances of equivalency between a black person and white person, at least in the social categories which is what we are talking about here. So, sorry for the confusion.
You are right when you say the black ref is equal to the other white refs. But when viewing the black race and white race as wholes, they are not categorical equivalents as can be seen in any sociological studies.
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Again.. no, they are saying they do not have a problem, not that a problem does not exist.. Some people just choose to not dwell on the problem.
Perhaps, although if this is true, it would be nice to see a little more sensitivity from some people. It is hard to tell if they know there is still a problem when all they do is post negative comments.
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Ok.. to continue with your political analogy... if the democrats have taught us anything, it is that constantly focusing on the problems, without ever acknowledging the successes, also paints an inaccurate picture of reality.. and it leaves everybody feeling pretty crappy.
I agree.
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You may be right about that, but let me ask everyone this. Do you think we would ever see this headline.
"Ching to be first Chinese referee in Super Bowl?"
No, which really is inconsistent because America has done terrible things to China in the past, especially during the Opium Wars. But they really are not the same situation since America did not fight a civil war over the chinese.
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No, which really is inconsistent because America has done terrible things to China in the past, especially during the Opium Wars. But they really are not the same situation since America did not fight a civil war over the chinese.
So your saying all this is about a war that happened 150 years ago?
Not to mention, Romans did some horrible things to cultures, as did the Vikings, the Huns.
There are regular tribal wars still going on in Africa, blacks killing blacks for no other reason than they are different tribes.
History is full of wars over land, power and racial/religious diversity.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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You may be right about that, but let me ask everyone this. Do you think we would ever see this headline.
"Ching to be first Chinese referee in Super Bowl?"
No, who wants to watch the superbowl and hear.. "We have a hoarding on number 72." 
yebat' Putin
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You are right when you say the black ref is equal to the other white refs. But when viewing the black race and white race as wholes, they are not categorical equivalents as can be seen in any sociological studies.
You are correct. However, as long as some things continue to exist, some white people are going to have a hard time accepting any kind of equivalency.. Whether it's right or wrong, don't you find it odd that there is a Miss Black America pagaent yet black women also sometimes win the Miss America Pagaent? And that there can be scholarship programs exclusively for black students? And that there can be social clubs exclusively for black people yet blacks also take exclusive white clubs to court to gain membership? and that black people with lower qualifications can get admitted to schools and get jobs over more qualified white people simply because they are black?... I could go on. As long as these kinds of perceived inconsistencies are not only occurring, but are being celebrated... some segments of the white population are going to have a hard time feeling a whole lot of empathy for the struggles of black people. Now we could go down the list and discuss the merits of each and every one of those inconsistencies, but it's really not necessary because I think you see what I'm getting at.
yebat' Putin
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You may be right about that, but let me ask everyone this. Do you think we would ever see this headline.
"Ching to be first Chinese referee in Super Bowl?"
No, who wants to watch the superbowl and hear.. "We have a hoarding on number 72."
But you shouldn't have said it. 
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No, which really is inconsistent because America has done terrible things to China in the past, especially during the Opium Wars. But they really are not the same situation since America did not fight a civil war over the chinese.
So your saying all this is about a war that happened 150 years ago?
Not to mention, Romans did some horrible things to cultures, as did the Vikings, the Huns.
There are regular tribal wars still going on in Africa, blacks killing blacks for no other reason than they are different tribes.
History is full of wars over land, power and racial/religious diversity.
It is about the war and everything that preceeds and follows it. Remember, the first slaves in America were brought in the 1600s, over 200 years before the war was fought. I think it is a mistake to assume that, because the war was fought 150 years ago, it is no longer significant. Consider this analogy: How long did it take for European serfs to gain equality with their overlords? It was alot longer than 150 years. At the end of the Civil War, free blacks had nothing to start with. Many remained with their masters because they had nowhere else to go. Historically speaking, a collective shift of this magnitude takes a long time, longer than 150 years, in this case. When one class begins at a subservient level to another class, the process of liberation and ultimate equality is much longer than is typically perceived.
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"My country is the world, and my religion is to do good" Thomas Paine
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Historically speaking, a collective shift of this magnitude takes a long time, longer than 150 years, in this case. When one class begins at a subservient level to another class, the process of liberation and ultimate equality is much longer than is typically perceived.
Just a simple question... Has it ever been done? Has a freed subserivent class EVER gained ultimate equality with their previous oppressors?
yebat' Putin
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Historically speaking, a collective shift of this magnitude takes a long time, longer than 150 years, in this case. When one class begins at a subservient level to another class, the process of liberation and ultimate equality is much longer than is typically perceived.
Just a simple question... Has it ever been done? Has a freed subserivent class EVER gained ultimate equality with their previous oppressors?
What's your point? That black people can never gain ultimate equality in this country? You may be right...but don't be surprised if we're a little angry about that.
"My country is the world, and my religion is to do good" Thomas Paine
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I think you see what I'm getting at.
Absolutely. I think you are exactly right in that post. I guess I should clarify that I am not a bleeding-heart-liberal and I am not advocating for any policy. I have a fatalistic outlook on collective shifts in the sense that everything will change with time and I am not arrogant enought to think I can do anything to modify that course. I can understand why affirmative action programs exist; it is an attempt to speed up the collective shift. In my opinion, this can be counter-productive as it actually creates more divisions. People should not tamper with things they do not understand. I do not get caught up in the morality of it all; I just try and comment on the process as I see it unfolding.
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As long as people use something such as race to try to gain advantages, there will always be a sect of society that sees them as users/abusers/whiners.
Not that it is right, but it is just the way humans are.
I could whine about the way Irish folks were treated we first arrived to America, but it won't get me anywhere, and I wasn't around then.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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Historically speaking, a collective shift of this magnitude takes a long time, longer than 150 years, in this case. When one class begins at a subservient level to another class, the process of liberation and ultimate equality is much longer than is typically perceived.
Just a simple question... Has it ever been done? Has a freed subserivent class EVER gained ultimate equality with their previous oppressors?
Good question. I would say yes, as I alluded to with my analogy of European serfs. During the Middle Ages, the non property-owning class (the vast majority of the population) lived in virtual slavery. It first took serfdom hundreds of years to die, and after it did, it took another several hundred years before there was any significant examples of universal equality between common and aristocrat. It is important to note that I am only refering to social equality, not economic equality. At present, we no longer have aristocratic overlords abusing our social rights, so in this instance, a formerly subservient class has gained equality with its former oppressor. The key point in all this is that it took a LOOOONG time for it to happen. 
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What's your point? That black people can never gain ultimate equality in this country? You may be right...but don't be surprised if we're a little angry about that.
Not at all... groups other than blacks have been the subservient class before y'know... and sometimes blacks were the ruling class with a different class of subservient blacks..... my question had nothing to do with blacks per se... my question had to do with equality and the human condition.. It is my opinion that true equality amongst all members of a mixed society cannot be achieved. Believe it or not, some people LIKE to feel oppressed, it gives them a built-in excuse for their own failures and no matter how much they are given, they are still going to seek out reasons to feel oppressed.. They are going to feel jealous of what others have and feel they don't deserve it and they are going to sulk and/or rebel... likewise some are just always going to feel superior, like success is their birthright, simply because they are the right color or nationality or religion and they are going to look down on others... It's unavoidable and it's not going away... The majority of white people have moved beyond racism in a historically short period of time...... now there is something to celebrate, but have you ever seen a parade or a march devoted to that topic?
yebat' Putin
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Quote:
What's your point? That black people can never gain ultimate equality in this country? You may be right...but don't be surprised if we're a little angry about that.
That is just insane, not only are black people equal to white people, but black people are catered to. Black people feel things should be 50/50. Equality does not equal 50/50. Why?
Percentages of US by race:
* White: 74.7% or about 215.3 million
* Black or African American: 12.1% or 35.0 million
* Asian American: 4.3% or 12.5 million
* American Indian or Alaska Native: 0.8% or 2.4 million
* Native Hawaiian or other Pacific Islander: 0.1% or 0.4 million
* Some other race: 6% or 17.3 million
* Two or more races 1.9% or 5.6 million
* Hispanic or Latino of any race: 14.5% or about 41.9 million.
Hell blacks are not even the biggest minority.
[b]USNavyDawg (Ret.)
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Please tell me you are not suggesting that social equality should be based on population percentage. 
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Legend
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Legend
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That is just insane, not only are black people equal to white people, but black people are catered to. Black people feel things should be 50/50. Equality does not equal 50/50. Why?
Ok, you lost me on this one....
yebat' Putin
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Legend
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Legend
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yeah, but of the Hispanic/Latino, how many are here legally?
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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Just a side note...
People keep saying this and that about the color of peoples skin.
It is not the color of people's skin that causes racism, it is how the people of (insert color here) skin act. The actual skin color has nothing to do with it except for the fact that (generally speaking not speaking specifics) you know what type of person your are dealing with based upon the reputation/history of (insert color here) skinned people.
[b]USNavyDawg (Ret.)
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I think you are right in that pure equality is not realistic. I think it belongs on the list of things that will never exist along with objectivity and altruism. When I speak of equality, I am refering to social equality meaning everyone has the right to social equality (e.g. freedom from discrimination based on class.)
Last edited by Mantis; 01/22/08 11:22 AM.
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yeah, but of the Hispanic/Latino, how many are here legally?
That's another issue altogether. 
[b]USNavyDawg (Ret.)
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Please tell me you are not suggesting that social equality should be based on population percentage.
No, no, not at all. Everyone regardless of color should be treated exactly the same.
[b]USNavyDawg (Ret.)
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Legend
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Legend
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We wouldn't even have racism if it weren't for those damn Canadians. It's all their fault.
![[Linked Image from i28.photobucket.com]](http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c201/shadedog/mcenroe2.jpg) gmstrong -----------------
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Legend
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Legend
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We wouldn't even have racism if it weren't for those damn Canadians. It's all their fault.
I agree. We should invade them next. We can break them down mentally by flooding their airwaves with old reruns of US shows like Andy Griffin and Leave it to Beaver.
#gmstrong
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