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I could be wrong, but weren't you part of that group w/Pit, tab, and others that was saying that DA was history, just three weeks ago?
If not, I apologize.
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I could be wrong, but weren't you part of that group w/Pit, tab, and others that was saying that DA was history, just three weeks ago?
If not, I apologize.
I'll admit to being back and forth on it during the season...near the end of the season I thought DA was history and it only made sense to trade him especially if we got the 1 and the 3.
Until the last game of the year when DA went down and Quinn came in. My personal feelings are that I'm gunshy about trading DA...but I do think Savage will listen if the offer is right.
And I think reaching a deal that keeps all sides happy (the FO, Anderson and Quinn) is next to impossible. And especially when I read between the lines (I know it was an opening offer but I just think a 3 year offer doesn't indicate that we're sold on Anderson for the long haul), it looks like while we say we want to keep DA at all costs, our actions are speaking louder than words.
I think Savage saw what most of us saw, he got off to a monster start but there's concern about how he played down the stretch, even given the adverse weather conditions. Savage wants more time, JMO. Even I'd like more time to be proven wrong.
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I just think a 3 year offer doesn't indicate that we're sold on Anderson for the long haul), it looks like while we say we want to keep DA at all costs, our actions are speaking louder than words.
Hmmmm, interesting. I was actually hoping our opening offer would have been lower. I wanted the contract to be for 3 years. Four years tops.
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Quote:
I just think a 3 year offer doesn't indicate that we're sold on Anderson for the long haul), it looks like while we say we want to keep DA at all costs, our actions are speaking louder than words.
Hmmmm, interesting. I was actually hoping our opening offer would have been lower. I wanted the contract to be for 3 years. Four years tops.
And I just don't think there's a chance in hell of us signing DA for such a short term deal. Just based on the recent deals done with QB's and DA's perceived value.
Plus, I don't think the FO's truly as convinced as they say they are.
I may receive some heat for this...but I wonder how much the fact that Chud was a new OC calling plays with his offense for the first time factored into DA's early success and later fade away.
Teams didn't have film on Chud's tendencies, added with an offensive line that could protect and a rifle armed QB an argument could be made that that factored into DA's sizzling start.
Then once teams figured out not only how to defend DA but Chud's playcalling as well, DA tapered off?
You once said you thought Chud got more conservative near the end of the year...I wonder if he got conservative because he adjusted to how defenses were now playing DA (less 8 man fronts, less blitzing...in other words, perfect defenses to run against)...and I wonder if Anderson just wasn't capable of adjusting to it. Perhaps we weren't throwing deep as much near the end cuz the plays just weren't there, and Anderson's lack of touch and accuracy ultimately killed him on the short stuff. I don't think he was making as many bad decisions as he was bad throws down the stretch, and I wonder how much the turnovers would have been reduced had he been able to complete more short throws and thus wasn't forced to throw deep as much to openings that just weren't there.
That's one of the reasons I'm not sold on him long-term, and I wonder if the FO is feeling that way too.
But if he could make that adjustment and throw better on the run...he could be great.
But if I had to put money on it...I don't think he's capable of improving that...too much of it is physical skills.
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You may not feel that he can improve, but I feel he has a tremendous upside. Perhaps bigger than any young QB in the NFL. Savage seems to think so too. Take a look:
"He's only scratched the surface of what he can be," Savage said. "People are more familiar with Brady than Derek. Derek is not chopped liver. He was Mr. Football and Mr. Basketball in Oregon. ... We're hoping to keep both."
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us."
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We may keep both for a year. That would be preferable. I'd be amazed if both are here at the start of the 2009 season.
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Yeah, it's going to be tough. I'd like to keep both for two years, but I don't know if that will happen. The loser is probably going to want out.
But, one year is better than none. At least we will have a better chance of making the right decision.
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us."
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But if I had to put money on it...I don't think he's capable of improving that...too much of it is physical skills.
I think this is why we have to keep DA unless we get a great offer. Anderson is as physically gifted as ANY quarterback in the NFL, and more so than most. Adjusting to throws on the run can be made. Whether or not Anderson can do it is yet to be seen, but that is something you can improve. He can also learn to put touch on his shorter passes. Again, it is yet to be seen if Anderson can improve that, but it can be done. After a full offseason as the starter, and more and more practice with his weaknesses, I believe then after next year we can truly gauge where we are with Anderson. If he plays great again next year and shows improvement on his weakness areas, you look into trading Quinn, or keep him if he can coexist for the rest of his rookie contract, and you re-sign Anderson to his big money deal and make him your starter permantely.
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Crystal ball....
1. Anderson and his represenatives do not come to a long term agreement with the Browns and he gets the max RFA tender.
2. Savage fields offers for Anderson AND Quinn but no offer is good enough to a) take away the advantage of having two good young QBs that know the system and b) mitigate the risk of trading the wrong player.
3. Anderson is the starter going into training camp and Quinn must play soundly better to dethone him.
4. Both play well therefore DA starts Game 1 saving the Browns money with Quinn's contract escalators and it gives them more time to groom him.
5. DA plays well and has a year much like this year with ups and downs.
6. We franchise DA, then work a trade for either player depending on the offer. Only 1 QB is here to start training camp in 2009 and a mid tier QB prospect is drafted to groom.
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What is the deadline on what we tender him?
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We may keep both for a year. That would be preferable. I'd be amazed if both are here at the start of the 2009 season.
Me too...
I HOPE DA stays but I THINK a team's gonna poison pill us....which is why I wonder if we might use the franchise tag if we have the extra cap space to do it.
Plus, the extra money from the franchise tag is like "Earnest money" compared to $2.56 million (as in we really do want to negotiate with good faith rather than rip him off, face it, $2.56 million for a Pro Bowler, regardless of how critical we were of him down the stretch is a ripoff on his end).
Likewise, I HOPE DA corrects his flaws and he becomes everything we want him to be, but I THINK he'll only improve so much and Quinn will ultimately be the better QB. That doesn't mean I'm not rooting for DA however.
Too often we get labeled as "haters" when in reality we're just going on what we believe.
Last edited by Ammo; 02/05/08 02:22 AM.
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Yup, we sure as hell could franchise DA, but please Ammo don't hold your breath because it will never happen. The poison pill isn't even a factor IMHO. If somebody comes to PS and is willing to pony up a 1 and 3 PS won't wait the 7 days he has to consider the offer, in fact he won't wait for the ink to dry on the offer sheet before he declines to match, and the Browns get a 1 and 3 compensation. Look DA had a great year for a 1st year starter no question, and I think he can get better, but anyone that will pony up a 1 and 3 will be overpaying for DA at this point.
While DA has shown great potential in order for a team to give up a 1 and 3 for him he would have to be a stud. As much as I wished he where a stud he isn't at this point. That doesn't mean that someone couldn't do a huge reach out of desperation they could, but it's highly unlikely to ever happen.
#1 The real question here you must ask is what is the price tag of a franchise QB(10 11 Mill range) is DA worth 10 11 mill?? I don't think so.
Lets face it if we were going to Franchise DA why not just sign him up to a long term contract. The idea of franchising DA is for the fantasy footballers, not the NFL. And certainly not for DA at this time!!!
#2 Would the Browns be happy to get a 1 and 3 for DA, now today?? I think they would jump out of their skin to get a 1 and 3.
#3 Is it likely anyone would pony up a 1 and 3?? Not much of a chance of that ever happening.
So at the end of the day the real question to you Ammo is this assume the Browns just went 4-12 and DA had a break out season playing for someone else!! Would you want the Browns to give up a 1 and 3 for DA?
You see Ammo you can set the value yourself if you reverse rolls??
Lets face it the Browns aren't going to trick anybody in the NFL into overpaying for DA. They to the very last team that has considered him, have looked at every single snap he took this year, and they know him better then we do, and perhaps as well if not better then our own staff does. They know his strengths they know his weaknesses, and they will try to reach a conclusion on what they see as his potential.
Oh one more thing in the era of UFA only one team has ever gottin the 1 and 3 tender paid to them, and DA won't be number 2.
Brown to the Bone
BTTB
AKA Upbeat Dawg
Can't believe I am in a group that is comprised of the best NOT just fans but people on the planet.
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just clicking...
Now that Anderson is officially a "pro-bowl" QB- does this change anything? Obviously, its a nice honor and congrats to DA are in order. BUT, what affect could this have on the browns? I can see this going one of two ways.
If Anderson goes to the pro-bowl, adjusts well and has a good game-- I think his value goes up. And he should have a good game-- the defense is vanilla. Not supposed to blitz, i think the safeties have to stay home as well. He should have good numbers, hopefully he has a good week of practice as well. He has a chance to showcase his abilities one last time to teams that may be looking for a QB.
Now the second option is bad DA shows up. If you are in the trade DA camp, this would be a nightmare scenario. The game is set up for the offense to score points, not throw interceptions. If DA misses receivers and basically shows poor timing i think his stock goes down. Of course, there is a silver lining to that scenario- If his value goes down he is more then likely a Brown for one more year and maybe, just maybe he goes on to sign an "economical" contract.
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j/c
Who says that PS isn't trying to sign DA to a reasonable contract in hopes of making him EASIER to trade away? Anyone who would match a tender offer would need to get him signed to a deal anyway...maybe PS is doing that legwork for them.
Maybe PS really is trying to keep him. Who knows?
I'll say this...I would be willing to take the chance that BQ busts IF that chance brought us a 1st and 3rd. I think that is a calculated risk that is worth taking. Simple as that.
FWIW, I was against taking Brady at #3 and I was not happy with the trade to move up...I'm still not.
Also FWIW, I do not like DA as a long-term starting QB. I believe that he showed me enough last year that he cannot be the long-term answer.
SInce we have BQ and a trade for him is not a reasonable option, we need to get on with the next era...unless the coaches already think he is a bust.
If we were a better team defensively, I would try and keep both QBs...but we are not.
The opportunity presented by a DA trade - which I think is a great idea because I do not think he is the guy - allows us to get guys to make the defense better.
Look...even if BQ comes on and is average...we basically got him for free - assuming we get a 1 & 3 for DA - and added a 1st and 3rd round pick. (For you nitpickers...I am taking the slant that keeping BQ cost us DA and we got DA for free.)
BQ + 1st rounder + 3rd rounder is better than DA even IF DA becomes a better QB. (I don't think we will get a 1 & 3...but this clarifies the argument.)
Factor in that we NEED some help on D, don't have a 1st rounder today, and could get a 1 &3...hmmmm...I think that is worth the risk.
Vers,
Right on about negotiations...so is the FACT that both sides will do or say anything to make their guy look better - I call that a smokescreen. It doesn't guarantee that there is no substance behind the smoke - the assumption of which is what I think torques you off - but it doesn't guarantee that there is truly any substance either.
In the end, I'll be pleased either way. I don't really have an emotional investment in either guy. I just think the potential benefit outways the potential risk.
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NRTU, I keep seeing people as saying how we need so much help defensively, and I STRONGLY agree. But we can't can't forget about the offense either. We still need a strong number 2 opposite Braylon. JJ has allready stated that this is his last yr. and he is best suited as a #3 right now anyway. Jamal is not confirmed as our RB YET, and even if he is, a STRONG number 2 and someone to groom is a pretty big need as well. It was stated several times that Jamal had ALOT of miles on him before we signed him, and he hasn't gotten any younger or magically reduced those miles. How much does he have left? Then there is the O-Line. Every yr. I here that we should ALWAYS draft at least one mid-round O-Lineman. Should this yr. be any different? While we have more depth and quality than we have had since our return, shouldn't we start thinking about grooming replacements for Tucker, Fraley, and to a lesser extent Shaffer? I am thinking that MAYBE we could afford to take a late flyer on a developmental O-lineman this yr. But as for the #2 Reciever and RB, I think we really need to look at those hard this yr. I don't want to see the Browns make a one or two yr. splash then go to mediocroty (sp?  ) agian. I want us to be a consistant Playoff team, and to do that we cannot just stand pat on one side of the ball. (although we may have to do so this yr.) Just my humble $.02, and possibly food for thought.
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Yup, we sure as hell could franchise DA, but please Ammo don't hold your breath because it will never happen. The poison pill isn't even a factor IMHO. If somebody comes to PS and is willing to pony up a 1 and 3 PS won't wait the 7 days he has to consider the offer, in fact he won't wait for the ink to dry on the offer sheet before he declines to match, and the Browns get a 1 and 3 compensation. Look DA had a great year for a 1st year starter no question, and I think he can get better, but anyone that will pony up a 1 and 3 will be overpaying for DA at this point.
While DA has shown great potential in order for a team to give up a 1 and 3 for him he would have to be a stud. As much as I wished he where a stud he isn't at this point. That doesn't mean that someone couldn't do a huge reach out of desperation they could, but it's highly unlikely to ever happen.
#1 The real question here you must ask is what is the price tag of a franchise QB(10 11 Mill range) is DA worth 10 11 mill?? I don't think so.
Lets face it if we were going to Franchise DA why not just sign him up to a long term contract. The idea of franchising DA is for the fantasy footballers, not the NFL. And certainly not for DA at this time!!!
#2 Would the Browns be happy to get a 1 and 3 for DA, now today?? I think they would jump out of their skin to get a 1 and 3.
#3 Is it likely anyone would pony up a 1 and 3?? Not much of a chance of that ever happening.
So at the end of the day the real question to you Ammo is this assume the Browns just went 4-12 and DA had a break out season playing for someone else!! Would you want the Browns to give up a 1 and 3 for DA?
You see Ammo you can set the value yourself if you reverse rolls??
Lets face it the Browns aren't going to trick anybody in the NFL into overpaying for DA. They to the very last team that has considered him, have looked at every single snap he took this year, and they know him better then we do, and perhaps as well if not better then our own staff does. They know his strengths they know his weaknesses, and they will try to reach a conclusion on what they see as his potential.
Oh one more thing in the era of UFA only one team has ever gottin the 1 and 3 tender paid to them, and DA won't be number 2.
Brown to the Bone
But would paying a 1 and a 3 for a Pro Bowl QB REALLY be overpaying when you could spend a first rounder on potential only??? Keep in mind the market for QB's in both FA and the draft here...this year's draft class sucks for QB's.
If we're serious about keeping him I really don't think the franchise tag is a bad idea...it says "Here's a ton of money up front, go out and prove last year wasn't a fluke and we're gonna take care of you, promise." It's not like we don't have the cap space for it.
And Brown...if I'm the Vikings (an 8-8 team that was on the verge of the playoffs until the bitter end) or the Bears, of course I pony up that 1 and 3. You're forgetting about the "solid teams who had rotten QB play" and are focusing on the "rotten teams period."
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Let's back the truck up Ammo...
Yes, we are blessed with cap room...but do we really want to blow it on 10 mil going to Anderson this year? More to the point, why would we when we can high tender him and no one will touch him.
Yep, I said it...no one will touch him if we tender a first and a third.
If Browns fans are this divided on DA, can you imagine the rest of the league? Lets face it...he's got question marks. There was a sense that he was "exposed" somewhat in the second half of the season with defences started taking away the long ball.
If we tender DA at a first and a third, our best chance is trading him and him getting a new contract with a new team. Teams like the Vikings and Bears don't just have the QB holes to fill and a first and a third is an awfully high price to shell out..
As a matter of fact, when was the last time someone actually DID shell out this for an RFA?
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"I could be wrong, but weren't you part of that group w/Pit, tab, and others that was saying that DA was history, just three weeks ago?"
Why Lie? This isn't the first time...and since I'm classed by you to be one of the Brady Brats...almost everything you pose onto the Brady Brats as a wrong has nothing to do with me n my opinions.
When did I ever say DA was history...I stated that Savage was going to offer a 2-3 year contract - it will be an offer that DA can refuse. What DA's people will offer up will be something that Savage will not agree to. It was my opinion that we would end up in the Tender department and then we would have to see what transpires from there. That is what I have said...Don't lie - I see my post was deleted. Unfortunately you will continue to post and I'll have to continue to show where you have LIED...for a guy who professes to NEVER Lie - you sure do a lot of that.
Oh btw - OTAY, is my line  hopefully when you made that reference you weren't talking about me...cause that would be added to your long list of lies.
And what is pretty unique - everything that I had stated would happen...has happened.
Savage has offered a 2-3 year contract. DA has refused it.
I have also stated you must have some common ground to negotiate off of. Savage has stated he won't make a Long Term commitment to DA as our starter in a form of a contract.
Obviously we want him here in 08...I'm really not quite sure how much further - how DA plays would determine that. But equally obvious Savage is not going to lock DA into an Elite QB contract with a heavy signing bonus which commits him as our starter for a while.
Meanwhile what have you stated that has come to be? Where do you get off calling posters Brats? Oh I see your contribution is that DA has no Accuracy issues...why cause of some football...nah - you don't lie and you are an expert at QBs - you were even a QB scout for colleges...Otay 
JMHO
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tab.......I really don't like talking to you because you aren't worth my time. However, I have had it w/you calling me a liar. You get away w/more namecalling than anyone on the board and you should have been suspended many, many times. Hell, you called me a pompous ass and got away w/it.
And I will stand by my comment. I know what you said. You know what you said. You've been wrong every step of the way on this and now you are trying to cover your butt. It might work w/some other posters who can't hold up to your constant character and personal attacks, but not me.
Perhaps one day, the refs will treat you like other posters and we won't have to read your crap anymore.
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You get away w/more namecalling than anyone on the board
!?!?!
Pot, meet kettle.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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"What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us."
--Ralph Waldo Emerson
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I haven't really gotten into this debate because I really didn't want anything to do with the pissing match. I guess I don't really get all the name calling and the taking sides. I don't see how anyone can argue that having both guys isn't a good thing. You can never have too many good players. I would hope we sign DA and the best guy wins the job in training camp. The problem with that is that I don't think DA will be signed for a small contract. It would be stupid on his and his agents part. This next contract may be his last chance to hit it big. A career doesn't last very long so I expect him to try to get whatever he can. If the price is too big then we will tag him and see what happens in the next year. If he continues to improve (and there is no evidence he won't) then may try to sign him long term. If he doesn't then we have a back up plan. His name is Brady. None of us know what kind of QB he can be but we also don't need to find out now. The other alternative is if someone wants DA bad enough to give something for him. I don't know what his trade value is. Whether it's a 1st and 3rd or something less that isn't for me to decide. The point is we have options and none of them are very bad. It's nice to finally be in a good situation at this position as apposed to seeing everyone argue over which bad QB should be starting. 
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ttim, the ugliness usually starts when people can't argue the football side of it.
Look at the article that Shep posted. There were direct quotes from Savage on the situation and they are pretty hard to refute. So, many people who don't agree either completely ignore them or try to discredit an individual poster who expounds on them. It redirects the conversation.
Those comments are huge. They are worthy of discussion, but not many want to talk about them, because it goes against what they have been preaching. They are far more worthy than comments from reporters about what is believed or thought to be, but they get less run...........because they do not fit in w/the popular line of thinking. So........let's try and call a poster who points them out names. Yeah, that's the ticket.
Btw............I think you have a pretty good handle on the situation. And one more thing..............I haven't said who should be starting. I have simply maintained that it would be in the Brown's best interests to let this thing play out. Just like Savage said............it is best to prolong the decision as long as possible.
It's a good spot to be in, but it is tricky. It's the most important position on the football field. We need to make the right decision.
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us."
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It's a good spot to be in, but it is tricky. It's the most important position on the football field. We need to make the right decision
I agree we can't afford to make a mistake with it. If we choose the wrong guy and he turns out to be a bust while the other flourishes we will be putting ourselves in another horrible situation.
What is so funny to me reading all of the posts is so many that are sure about who is better either way. None of us know. We may not really know for a couple of years.
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"What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us."
--Ralph Waldo Emerson
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What is so funny to me reading all of the posts is so many that are sure about who is better either way. None of us know. We may not really know for a couple of years.
Been saying that for over a month now and I swear to you, I have no idea how it could be any other way... We simply don't know what we don't know.. 
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"Every responsibility implies opportunity, and every opportunity implies responsibility." Otis Allen Glazebrook, 1880
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Posts: 844
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
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Posts: 844 |
Well, as much as I'd like to have both QB's on the team, I would, under no circumstances give DA a longterm deal or Romo type of money. He had a decent season, it's not like he morphed into Joe Montana or any other HOF QB.
I would be just as happy if we got some high draft pick(s) for him and went with Brady Quinn. I believe in Brady, now I wasn't sure until I seen him and yes it was only preseason but the poise and accuracy is really what made me make up my mind about Quinn.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,475
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,475 |
"And I will stand by my comment. I know what you said. You know what you said. You've been wrong every step of the way on this and now you are trying to cover your butt."
Actually you don't know half of what you allege that you do. And that is football related. Now you know my opinion better than I. Your whole...you have now included me in your name calling of Brady Brat which I feel is uncalled for and never really posted in reply cause I certainly felt that in no way was I to be included in that grouping when you state Brady Brats say this and that.... well if I'm now included almost all things you class in that Grouping is an outright lie. Including the subject matter at hand.
As for name calling...Brat? Dolt? came long before I called you what you basically are. One of which is a Fabricator.
And as for proof or a foundation of where you derive your strong opinions on...all to often fall upon - "And I will stand by my comment. I know what you said." Well its simple then...prove it. But like always you have no proof - not even a logical explanation of your opinions... All too often it falls to the burden of proof being.
YOU KNOW...you know better than others....why DA is accurate cause you are an expert of QBs - you were even a QB scout for College programs...yada yada yada...but you never explained one iota of what you saw that in your infinite wisdom - all you stated was he checked down  with the environment from this year to that of last and previous years - it was the first time our QBs had the opportunity to actually check down...I hope he would improve on that...ANY QB WOULD HAVE!
You don't like me as a poster against your views...cause you enjoy dictating your opinion. You don't like the idea that possibly somebody actually knows as much or more football than you. I can understand your distaste for me and how you view me as a threat.
To each their own. But your opinions on this subject as noble as you try to present them as being are nowhere close to what is happening and you have gone on record stating how it was a mistake of Savage to have drafted BQ and yet there you are stating to all that you never said that BQ won't be a good QB for us in the future...TALK About covering your Butt  Just remember not all posters are underhanded like you...some of us talk straight from the hip... 
have a nice day 
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,618
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
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Posts: 2,618 |
Do you think the board enjoys this?
I have been trying to ignore your attacks as much as possible, but you persist. How about we don't speak to each other? I don't respect you and you don't respect me. And we certainly don't like each other. So how about we do the board a favor and ignore one another?
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us."
--Ralph Waldo Emerson
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 874
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
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Posts: 874 |
Quote:
Look at the article that Shep posted. There were direct quotes from Savage on the situation and they are pretty hard to refute.
yup, he said enough good things about DA (DA has only scratched the surface of what he can do) and that he wants to keep both QBs. And it's true I'm sure. He'd love to keep both DA & BQ...so would I...who wouldn't? But I don't think it would work...and I think he knows that it probably wouldn't work. But he absolutely has to say those things.
![[Linked Image from members.cox.net]](http://members.cox.net/flyinc5/smallsigpics/frcburnout.gif) AL 29 76 14 R_K
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 961
Administrator
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Administrator
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Posts: 961 |
Okay.
Enough is enough.
We (mods) have been discussing this situation and it is high time all of this crap gets nipped in the bud.
I made the statement the other day that the terms "Anderson's Apes" and "Brady's Brats" and all of the derogatory terms are not going to be tolerated. By the same token, any other personal attacks are not allowed on here yet people persist in using this in an offhanded manner trying to use sleight of hand to continue to use personal attacks in a way that they are seemingly circumventing the rules regarding the same.
This board is a place for discussion about Browns football first and foremost, and on the side we have other forums to talk about side topics.
If you wish to call other posters pompous asses or idiots, or if you wish to post pictures of hot chicks or guys in other forums here, then this is not the place for you.
The buck stops here, and the egos need to be checked as soon as you log onto the board. Posts of this nature (overall as those that are obvious within this thread) do not lend to good discussion and will not be tolerated.
It can't be said any clearer than this.
Talk football, or be bounced on your ass for a period of time to be determined by the mods. Don't like it? Then go elsewhere. The fans of this Browns team deserve to have the best message board community on the 'net to talk shop and that is our goal.
Do not reply to this post with questions or jokes. If anyone does not understand this message start a thread in the Ref's Corner or send a moderator a PM, or send an e-mail.
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 2,530
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
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Ammo you raise some good points and seem settled into your position. I respect that truly I do, I also think your wrong to believe that anybody will pony up a 1 and 3. At this juncture DA has the same value as a 1st round draft pick. Unknown potential, thats the key phrase when you start talking about DA. And lets face it, thats the same value that you place on a 1st round QB draft pick. If you can pick a player with the same potential why throw a 3 into the mix when you don't have too.
I said this before, I will repeat it for you.
Teams that may be thinking about trying to pry DA loss from the Browns are very aware of everything DA did last season, the good the bad the ugly. They know for instance that DA was the pilot of a pretty good offense, with better then average tools to work with. They were:::
#1 Great O Line, maybe the best in the NFL at protecting the QB.
#2 2 great recievers to throw the ball too. And a 3rd Down receiver that is simply clutch.
#3 A solid running game.
All those things go into what teams will consider when talking about possibly taking a shot a DA. Yeah DA made the Pro Bowl, but it sure as hell wasn't based on his play to close the season. Lets face it DA has some glaring weaknesses that he has to address to be considered a STUD. And when a team is talking about giving up a 1 and 3 thats what your talking about, a can't miss 100% stud. And as much as I truly like DA he isn't even close to stud status.
In the RFA era 1 team has recieved compensation, at the tender offer of a 1 and 3 compensation. And that player was a 100% STUD.
If DA where to leave the Browns I don't think you would see much of a dropoff, in fact I think the Offense would be better under BQ. The system here in Cleveland now, and the great O Line make it all possible really they do, and teams that are looking at DA know it too..
Nobody will pony up a 1 and 3, not ever, not knowing what we all know about DA, and not knowing he has great tools to work with, and still struggled like he did to close the season.
MHO
Brown to the Bone
BTTB
AKA Upbeat Dawg
Can't believe I am in a group that is comprised of the best NOT just fans but people on the planet.
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Hall of Famer
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OP
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
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Quote:
Ammo you raise some good points and seem settled into your position. I respect that truly I do, I also think your wrong to believe that anybody will pony up a 1 and 3. At this juncture DA has the same value as a 1st round draft pick. Unknown potential, thats the key phrase when you start talking about DA. And lets face it, thats the same value that you place on a 1st round QB draft pick. If you can pick a player with the same potential why throw a 3 into the mix when you don't have too.
I said this before, I will repeat it for you.
Teams that may be thinking about trying to pry DA loss from the Browns are very aware of everything DA did last season, the good the bad the ugly. They know for instance that DA was the pilot of a pretty good offense, with better then average tools to work with. They were:::
#1 Great O Line, maybe the best in the NFL at protecting the QB.
#2 2 great recievers to throw the ball too. And a 3rd Down receiver that is simply clutch.
#3 A solid running game.
All those things go into what teams will consider when talking about possibly taking a shot a DA. Yeah DA made the Pro Bowl, but it sure as hell wasn't based on his play to close the season. Lets face it DA has some glaring weaknesses that he has to address to be considered a STUD. And when a team is talking about giving up a 1 and 3 thats what your talking about, a can't miss 100% stud. And as much as I truly like DA he isn't even close to stud status.
In the RFA era 1 team has recieved compensation, at the tender offer of a 1 and 3 compensation. And that player was a 100% STUD.
If DA where to leave the Browns I don't think you would see much of a dropoff, in fact I think the Offense would be better under BQ. The system here in Cleveland now, and the great O Line make it all possible really they do, and teams that are looking at DA know it too..
Nobody will pony up a 1 and 3, not ever, not knowing what we all know about DA, and not knowing he has great tools to work with, and still struggled like he did to close the season.
MHO
Brown to the Bone
I wonder myself if someone would pony up a 1 and a 3...but I have to believe there would be a team desperate enough.
But where I disagree is where you say DA has the same potential as a first round pick. DA has more potential than a first round because teams have a whole year of film on him AT THIS LEVEL.
They know he can do GREAT things, but can also do bad things too. But in a league where first round QB's either play lights out or are out of the league in 4 years, if you were a GM of a team that theoretically could contend if they had a Q (think Minny, Chicago, etc), wouldn't you gladly throw the 1st and 3rd at someone you at least know can perform at this level vs. waiting for someone to grow up (if he even does) and possibly miss your window?
Minnesota: potential future HOF back and solid defense...if they traded for DA, signed a FA receiver and drafted a 2nd round receiver they could very easily be the NFC North favorites next year.
Chicago: A little different, but if they believe their D can get back to what it was, wouldn't they want a QB who may have his downs, but is more consistent than what they've dealt with recently?
Those are just two stories. And yes, I know the arguments of the great OL and receivers and we have a "great system"...but, and I said this in a thread a long time ago, if Frye was our starter until the bye week, IMO we'd be 2-5 at best.
IMO, a 1st and 3rd on a "young, good but not great QB who has performed highly at this level for at least half a season and has already grown into the starting QB role" is more valuable than a "1st round rookie who will need time to develop and you don't know if he'll be great or be awful."
Look, I think BQ will ultimately be much better, but I'm still gunshy about dealing DA because even if BQ pans out, if something should happen this coming season and there's only Ken Dorsey to back him up, we're screwed.
I see your stance too...I'm just admittedly more gunshy about it...and I really do think some team will have the balls to dish out the 1 and 3.
Last edited by Ammo; 02/07/08 10:57 AM.
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 15,188
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 15,188 |
The one thing no one knows is what BQ is actually doing .... the team does .. thats the one wildcard in weather we let DA go for picks or keep him around ... and I;ve stated my opinion on that many times ... Bro I don't care what Opie says ... if we get offered a first for DA it is my opinion hes gone in a nanoo second ... U point to what Opie says as the bible .. well all his comments can also be construed as driving up the trade value ... "he hasn't scratched the surface" = please give us a 1st and 3rd .. U can spin what he says any way U want ... to me this simply boils down to the following ... 1. DA has definite value to us ... so we MAY want to sign him to a 3 or even a possibly 4 year contract ... I doubt we truely do at this point because we hold the HAMMER .... for this year and next ... and if we sign him to the 3 or 4 yr. contract and he fails as a starter or becomes a backup we get nothing for him ... so keeping the hammer with no medium term commitment makes the most sense to me ... 2. DA has value right now .. the iron is hotter than it ever will be ... his agents job is to maximize that value .. the best way for him to do that is to test the open market .. lets see whats out their ... we will know more about that about 3 or 4 days before FA starts ... these guys agents know what their worth and have discussions with other teams ... don't think they dont ... 3. sometimes deals are just not meant to be .. and this IMO is going to more than likely be one of them ... DA's value is maxed right now in the market place .. and he is not worth near that much to us .. we have the best of both worlds .. we can DANGLE him and see what happens and if someone wantshim we can then woegh our options ... and here is the question if I were a reporter i would ask Opie and he would tap dance around it .. WHY WOULD WE NOT DO THAT?????????? it is the only LOGICAL thing to do .. we LOSE NOTHING if we so choose and can keep him here for at least 2 more years with him having no choice but to stay ... and then if we like what we see ... we can sign him long term ... where's the downside to that??? U know how i believe this will play out ... 1. We tender DA .. 2. We get no offers that are acceptable for a trade 3. BQ whoops him and makes who the starter is a No Brainer ..... and then our next QB controversy is who was the greatest Browns QB ever ... BQ or Otto ...
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 43,542
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 43,542 |
Quote:
I wonder myself if someone would pony up a 1 and a 3...but I have to believe there would be a team desperate enough
I don't know if anyone will either,, Pony up a 1 and 3 for DA that is.,.
But the second part of that comment interests me enough that I'd love to talk about it. Looking at this might give us a clue..
I can't tell you how many times I've heard it on here and, well, everywhere, that the single most important position on a football team is QB. I won't even argue that,,, I'll just accept it for discussion,,
Which teams might be in need... There are the teams that need a QB, but aren't desparate. Those teams I think are probably the following:
The Vikings
The 49ers
The Jets
The Bills
Then there are those that I think need a QB so badly then can taste it:
The Dolphins
The Ravens
The Bears
The Falcons
Then there are the teams that have a QB of the future in the stable already but haven't seen anything resembling a winner yet from them..
The Raiders
Then there are the teams that have a reliable but aging starter.
The Lions
The Packers
The Panthers
At least with the Packers, they have a young guy that has been an understudy to Favre for 3 or 4 years so there is hope there...
That makes 13 teams that may have an interest in DA. Or NOT!
Some of those problems the above teams have will be solved by the Draft.. Ryan or that kid out of Louisville Brohm (sp).
Others will be solved internally. Maybe that kid in Miami they picked up in the second round last year will turn on... or JP Losman will turn the corner into consistency in Buffalo. Or maybe even our guy Troy Smith will turn into the leader he was at OSU for the Ravens. Who knows!
So basically, 5 or 6 of those teams will drop out right away depending on what they think of what they have or what they can get in the draft this year..
That still leaves 7 or 8 teams that are viable.. Precisely which 7 or 8 is the real question mark that I don't think can really be answered today..
But with 7 or 8 teams in the market, I have to wonder if a 1 and 3 is completely out of the question?
Again, I don't know the answer, but when you look at the possiblities, you have to say wow,,, it could happen.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Side note about the Bills, I think Edwards will be the QB to take over and Losman will be looking for a new team. Losman wouldn't have seen the field again if Trent didn't get hurt. I don't know if either of them will develop into a solid QB or not, but I think Edwards will win out and be better than Losman, in their system anyway
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Joined: Sep 2006
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Hall of Famer
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OP
Hall of Famer
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Daman hit the nail on the head.
Add in the fact that this draft class for QB's SUCKS and you have why I think a 1 and a 3 for a 24 year old pro bowl alternate who is now playing in the pro bowl isn't out of the question.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 43,542
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 43,542 |
Yup, that was the guy I keep forgetting about.. Edwards,, thanks for the heads up.. Either way, if the Bills are good to go, then that is only one less team to put into consideration for DA....
THanks
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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