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With all the talk about DA, and JL, nobody has broached the subject of DH, as most of you know DH is a RFA.
There has been zero interest expressed by the fans the media or the Browns on the status of DH, which is actually pretty strange IMHO.
I think the Browns should get DH under a long term contract of some sort he has proven to be a solid DB in spot duty and you can never have to many CB's in the NFL. Since there has been so little talk about DH I wonder if the Browns will make an attempt to re-sign him or just tender him let him get a signed offer sheet and take whatever comes from it. IMHO there is sure to be interest in DH from other teams, and perhaps DH would like to move on so he can become a starter elsewhere?
I guess the question is will the Browns tender DH, and if so for what?
With the shortage of DB's in the NFL I just can't see why the Browns would let DH get away ???
Brown to the Bone
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With all due respect to Daven he is a good DB, has proven he belongs in this leauge, but Daven must also know and see where he fits, Daven is a back-up a fill in, a situational type player, Now I havent heard or seem what Daven is asking for $$ wise, but Phil is known to be a fair man and maybe Daven is asking for too much. Daven is a player we could use but can do without, so maybe Phil is letting Daven see what he can get an if the offer is within the Browns price they will match if not we let him walk and sign somebody else for less. Also with Wright & Mcdonnal coming on last year, Daven's value decreased somewhat.
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I agree Clay he maybe thinking he is a starting DB but Phil thinks otherwise. Competiton for positions is a good thing because it normally gets you the best player. I hope we do ink him long term I liked Daven when he was in there last year but there are many things that we the fans dont see.
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IMO...
Daven needs to be signed for the long haul....
I would give him a 5 year contract in a heartbeat... No big money b/c he isn't worth it, but he is definitely a good player to have. He has starting experience and has done pretty well when thrown out there. And he will only get better with a better pass rush.
Savage.. KEEP HIM!!! We have a good core of guys here already. No need to change anything. He is one of our starters IMO, b/c Leigh has been a nickel for the past year playing the slants.
1) Eric Wright
2) Daven Holly
3) Leigh Bodden
4) Brandon McDonald
5) Whoever else...
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I think we all wanna keep him....but we can't over pay...other players contracts are gonna be coming up and everything must fit into the cap. Along with trying to sign some Def.Linemen FA
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B to the B,, Holly is a pretty good role player and fill in starter. But he's replacable.
Maybe it's like Clay says,, he may be asking for more than Phil is willing to pay. Don't know. But sooner or later, it will come to light.
Hey, this could be another situation like Brian Russell last year. We waited and waited and in the end, Russell went to Seattle. I don't remember even hearing a peep out of the Browns on a contract offer to him.
Our new DC is his former position coach, I would think that if he thought that Holly was required, he'd have spoken up... or maybe he's trying to get them to open up the wallet for Holly.. don't know.
#GMSTRONG
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As far as money concerns, does anyone know what Leigh Bodden signed for with his extension?
Whatever is was, Holley should be given a little less.
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Anyone know the tender amounts for a DB?
i would like to keep him for depth as well, but he is not an elite corner.
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As far as money concerns, does anyone know what Leigh Bodden signed for with his extension?
Whatever is was, Holley should be given a little less.
I don't have full figures, but base salary -- Bodden is set to make 1.7 and 1.8 mil over the next two seasons.
I think re-signing Holly is on the agenda for the Browns. It's just not top priority, because I really don't think there are a lot of teams who will be clamoring for his services. Holly is a good DB to have, yes, but the demand for him isn't nearly as high as his talent might command. We should be able to lock him up for a reasonable contract.
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I'm not sweeping anything under the rug man,, just saying, maybe he's asking for more than Phil is willing to shell out..
I also said I don't know that,, so whats your problem?
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
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There has been zero interest expressed by the fans the media or the Browns on the status of DH, which is actually pretty strange IMHO.
Holley's in the shadow of Anderson and Lewis at the moment, but I don't think the Browns are ignoring him altogether. I wouldn't be surprised if he gets the deal he deserves. Losing anybody in this secondary would be a major step backwards.
I think the fans give him all the credit he deserves. The real fans, anyway.
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I think the fans give him all the credit he deserves. The real fans, anyway.
I hope you are NOT trying to say that just because I think that Holly can be replaced that I am NOT a real fan! Are you?
Oh,, his name is spelled HOLLY,, Not HOLLEY... Just an FYI
http://www.clevelandbrowns.com/team/player.php?id=529
Last edited by Damanshot; 02/08/08 11:04 AM.
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I'm not sweeping anything under the rug man,, just saying, maybe he's asking for more than Phil is willing to shell out..
I also said I don't know that,, so whats your problem?
You basicly said we could get a player like DH from out of the sky, and I was saying that it's not that easy, look at what happened to us in 2006. By your own remarks I am left with no other option but to believe you don't see a problem with the Browns getting a DH quality player. By thinking that your sweeping the whole thing under the rug, or ignoring our recent past completely which I think is not to smart. It could come to pass that having or not having DH makes all the difference, and ignoring it isn't going to address what we know can happen based off our past..
I find it more then strange that last off season fans where claiming that DH was the next coming and this upcoming season those same fans are ready to feed DH to the lions.. Wow, I don't get it folks. Fans are sure fickle..
For the record I said it last off season DH is a solid backup (nickle dime), while most of the fans I spoke too thought he would make a solid starter. I sure wished you all would make up your minds.... 
Brown to the Bone
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C'mon B to B, its dawgtalk...home of the fickle and knee-jerkers!  There's a mid ground between you and Daman I think...and I think that's where I lie. Daven is a solid player and a decent cornerback. His playing time decreased a bit this year with Wright coming in but, IMO, he played relatively well all year. I like Holly because he may get beat but he doesn't seem to get burned..Catches can be made on him but I don;t recall him making the grievious errors that lead to TDs or massive YAC. This year, that was all Leigh Bodden.... Alot of people are going to see Wright's progression and McDonald's couple of good games and deem Holly unneccesary. Well, thats all fine and good except: - Bodden has continued to be somewhat injury prone - Holly's a good athlete and thus can contribute on special teams. - McDonald showed some extremely good flashes last year...But I do recall a game where he got flat out lit up...as a matter of fact, I believe it was the 2nd Bengals game. He looks good...but he's not ready to start quite yet kids. Give him a decent offer, maybe include a nice signing bonus or roster bonus in the contract to give him a little incentive to sign. If not, throw a decent tender on him and see if he can earn on a spot on the team. I doubt if we overextend for Holly as we've already got Bodden and Wright in place as our starting pair and McDonald as our nickel-in-waiting.
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I like Holly he´s a solid dependable CB and he even has some upside left since he started playing CB just as a senior in College (WR before)
I hope we sign him to a 3year deal...if he wants too much, slap him the 2nd round tender (around 1mil I guess??)...and he´s in a contract year and gives us 100% next season
In todays NFL you need 4 good CBs and the #3 and #4 should be at least slightly below AVG No.2 starters...Holly is just that: an above AVG nickel/dime guy with good hands who doesnt get burned, he´s solid and can spot start....3 CBs are on the field in over 50% of the plays anyway...then there will be injuries
I would feel real thin at CB if we let him go...Bodden is injury prone, McDonald isn´t a sure thing yet and Wright is also just entering his 2nd season
Re-Sign him or tender him...whatever..but keep him
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Quote:
Quote:
I think the fans give him all the credit he deserves. The real fans, anyway.
I hope you are NOT trying to say that just because I think that Holly can be replaced that I am NOT a real fan! Are you?
Oh,, his name is spelled HOLLY,, Not HOLLEY... Just an FYI
http://www.clevelandbrowns.com/team/player.php?id=529
I replied to B to B's post w/out having read any other posts, including yours. I was only implying that anyone I consider a real fan would recognize Holly's contribution to the team so far. I wouldn't say your are less of a fan for not thinking he deserved an extension.
I shouldn't throw around the term "real" fan anyway. Leads too easily to arguments.
All that said, I think we have more dire needs than replacing Holly. Unless he or his agent have given some ridiculous demand that I'm not aware of.
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He's solid and dependable, but he was 7th round pick.... so if we tender him, I think we tender him at the 2nd Rnd Pick level, which is like $1.3 Million.
If we don't tender him at least that high, we are probably willing to take our chances with whatever we can find on the market or in the Draft.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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As we should all know, you can never have enough DB's...at least retain him for this year and see what happens. He seems to be quite the ballhawk.
you had a good run Hank.
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You basicly said we could get a player like DH from out of the sky,
I never said anyone was going to drop from the sky and be as good or better,, I believe my exact wording was, he's replaceable! are you saying he's not?
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By your own remarks I am left with no other option but to believe you don't see a problem with the Browns getting a DH quality player.
I think he's replaceable! Are you saying he's not?
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By thinking that your sweeping the whole thing under the rug, or ignoring our recent past completely which I think is not to smart.
Again, I'm not sweeping anything under the rug,,, it's right there on top for all to see,, I think he's replaceable! Are you saying he's not?
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It could come to pass that having or not having DH makes all the difference, and ignoring it isn't going to address what we know can happen based off our past..
I'm getting a little tired of this,, But I think he's replaceable! Are you saying he's not!
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I find it more then strange that last off season fans where claiming that DH was the next coming and this upcoming season those same fans are ready to feed DH to the lions.. Wow, I don't get it folks. Fans are sure fickle..
I never said he was the second coming, but I thought he was pretty good.. I liked him and want him to stay here.. I want us to resign him.. But I do think he's replaceable! Are you saying he's not?
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For the record I said it last off season DH is a solid backup (nickle dime), while most of the fans I spoke too thought he would make a solid starter. I sure wished you all would make up your minds....
Like I said, except for the first few games that Holly played for Cleveland in his first year here, he's been a solid performer and I'd like it if we could keep him. I have no problems with keeping him,,
But I still think he's replaceable! Are you saying he isn't?
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
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You also have McDonald who came along last year, which starts to move Holly out of the picture. He's purely a back up right now, and the only way he signs is if there's a nice deal for both sides. Nothing big.
Holly had a solid first year with us, but we pretty much nonexistent last year. Which is why nobody is talking about him.
![[Linked Image from pic18.picturetrail.com]](http://pic18.picturetrail.com/VOL905/3216203/6567769/349897772.jpg) "The Browns' defense is kicking mucho dupa."
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All Pro
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Gee, Daman, I am not really sure but........... You think we could find someone to replace him?  
Born and breed with OSU, App. State alumni, but bleed orange and brown.
Go ARMY......Beat Navy!!!!!!
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AS to the replaceable vs irreplaceable conversation, consider the options below: (cut n pasted from- www.footballsfuture.com) Asante Samuel, UFA, New England Patriots Mike Doss, UFA, Minnesota Vikings Domonique Foxworth, RFA, Denver Broncos Drayton Florence, UFA, San Diego Chargers Randall Gay UFA New England Patriots Marcus Trufant, UFA, Seattle Seahawks Ken Hamlin, UFA, Dallas Cowboys Chris Carr RFA Oakland Raiders Tory James UFA New England Patriots Karl Paymah RFA Denver Broncos B.J. Sams UFA Baltimore Ravens Chad Scott UFA New England Patriots This is the list of "top" DBs heading to FA this offseason.... While there are some much better than Holly, I dunno if there's many better at a reasonable price that we could replace Holly with... so really, replacing him with no drop off is not as easy as one would think. I think the only guys we could get at a Holly type rate would be Foxworth or James....
Last edited by CanadaDawg; 02/08/08 12:40 PM.
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Asante Samuel, UFA, New England Patriots
Mike Doss, UFA, Minnesota Vikings
Domonique Foxworth, RFA, Denver Broncos
Drayton Florence, UFA, San Diego Chargers
Randall Gay UFA New England Patriots
Marcus Trufant, UFA, Seattle Seahawks
Ken Hamlin, UFA, Dallas Cowboys
Chris Carr RFA Oakland Raiders
Tory James UFA New England Patriots
Karl Paymah RFA Denver Broncos
B.J. Sams UFA Baltimore Ravens
Chad Scott UFA New England Patriots
That's a nice little list. Not sure if we go after any one of those names, but I like a fair amount of names on that list.
"The Browns' defense is kicking mucho dupa."
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If we don't find some quality DLine or LBers to throw the money at, we just might go after one of them bigger names. After all, Baxter will be gone (essentially), so there is one big-money CB off the books.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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As would I...but who on that list could be get for a decent price that is a decent player?
Asante Samuel, UFA, New England Patriots- Huge bucks- no shot
Mike Doss, UFA, Minnesota Vikings- safety..no help there
Domonique Foxworth, RFA, Denver Broncos- He would be a good pick up, is young and fast but who knows what his tender will be...
Drayton Florence, UFA, San Diego Chargers- Would be a good pick up but will be priced out of our range for a #3 or 4 corner...will start somewhere
Randall Gay UFA New England Patriots- Pats will likely keep him. If not, someone will pay him to start
Marcus Trufant, UFA, Seattle Seahawks- Once again, big bucks...out of our price range
Ken Hamlin, UFA, Dallas Cowboys- Big bucks again...and he's a safety isn;t he?
Chris Carr RFA Oakland Raiders- Has speed but nothing else...a drop off from Holly
Tory James UFA New England Patriots- Good solid player but past his prime... Depending on what kind of shape he's in, could make for a good 4th corner/vet presence
Karl Paymah RFA Denver Broncos- who?
B.J. Sams UFA Baltimore Ravens - Kick returner... And I coulda sworn he was listed as a WR when drafted.
Chad Scott UFA New England Patriots- A consistent disappointment where ever he's gone.
So as you can see, although Holly may be replaceable, there's not alot of other options at his price point for us.
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Quote:
This is the list of "top" DBs heading to FA this offseason.... While there are some much better than Holly, I dunno if there's many better at a reasonable price that we could replace Holly with... so really, replacing him with no drop off is not as easy as one would think.
I can't argue with that except to say,, who heard of Holly before we picked him up?
There are guys out there that I bet Savage and his team have thier eye on right now..
And I also bet that we won't recognize thier names.
So for anyone of us to say that Holly is Irrreplaceable is probably not so true....
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
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Damanshot
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Hey, if Phil finds a diamond in the rough, I'm all for it.
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Out of that list... I would rather just keep Holly.
I don't know if I'm the only one who feels this way, but I'd put my money on Holly to hold a reciever to minimum yardage. He has what it takes to make a name for himself IMO.
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Gee, Daman, I am not really sure but...........
You think we could find someone to replace him?
Yes but he is not going to fall from the sky that would hurt
god I hate the off season 
Joe Thomas #73
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Again, I'm not sweeping anything under the rug,,, it's right there on top for all to see,, I think he's replaceable! Are you saying he's not?
ANYBODY can be replaced thats not the point. The point is this. When we were in dire need of DB help in 2006 DH looked like a Pro bowler, in fact the Browns would have cut off their right arm to find a player or 2 of the quality of DH, and hey guess what they couldn't do it.
So to completely answer your question, YES DH can be replaced, but heres the biggy IT AINT EASY TO DO. Thats the point... GET IT GOT IT GOOD... 
As for the rest of my post it wasn't specific to you, it was a general response to what I saw or heard coming from fans then, and what their response is now... 
Brown to the Bone
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So to completely answer your question, YES DH can be replaced, but heres the biggy IT AINT EASY TO DO. That the point... GET IT GOT IT GOOD...
and if he wants a bunch of money, should we pay it? And if we have someone else in mind, such as Holly 2 years ago, do we pass on them to sign Holly..
I don't really think you and I are that far from each other on this, except to say that I think he can be replaced a little easier than you seem to feel.. in the end, you may be right,, then again,, so may I... Getit, gotit,, GOOD !
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
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Damanshot
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I don't think Holly will even ask for top dollar though... I'm more than sure that he knows where he ranks among other DB's.
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Heres the part that gets me and this isn't aimed specificly at you DAMAN but just a general thing I notice about people.
Why is it that DH is asking for huge money. Who said that where did it come from is it someones imagination gone wild. I am not saying he's not but to say he is well that kind of is just BULL. It's like this a reporter says that DA is looking for Romo money and automaticly DA is a bad guy, why??
Hell I don't blame a player for getting as much as he can his career is short and injury is but a hit away, not to mention he could be left cripple from playing. I wished people would let things playout a bit before putting a lable on a player as being anything. It's called negotiations the team wants the player on the cheep and the player wants the team on the expessive, sometimes they find common ground sometimes they don't. But in all honesty put the shoe on your foot for just a moment what would you do? Please folks don't believe everything you read in the papers or hear over the airwaves unless it comes directly from those that are involved, and even then realise there are 2 sides to every story, and your probably only hearing one side of it.
At the end of the day nobody is a bad guy, when teams and players negotiate. Painting the picture or even hinting at a player being greedy aint cool, not to mention you know little if anything about what he is asking for, or for that matter what promises may have been made and broken to him. Ever have your boss promise you a raise and then have to go and remind him, and threaten to quit before he delivers? And does that make you the bad guy. I am not saying that this happened or that happened I just wished everyone would cool it with he is greedy or he aint worth it, that type of stuff when you have zero for facts, and it only cast the player in a bad light and never the team. Be FAIR take the high middle ground, don't assume the player is the bad guy always.
Brown to the Bone
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Why is it that DH is asking for huge money.
I think., at least from me, I was merely wondering if he was asking for big money and maybe that's the reason for the delay in dealing with him..
Or then again, it could be that the Browns are concentrating on those they feel are just more important, (DA, Lewis),, or then again still, there could be an offer on the table for Holly already and we just haven't been told by anyone about it...
Lots of things are possible....
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Who said that where did it come from is it someones imagination gone wild.
Bone, it was SPECULATION,, NOBODY that I know of said FOR SURE that he was asking for anything.. it was used as a MAYBE reason why he's not signed yet... You may not want to believe it's possible, but I'm afraid it is....
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I wished people would let things playout a bit before putting a lable on a player as being anything
Well Geez Bone, you didn't let them play out when you brought up the subject... How do you know that Phil isn't sitting down right now, at this very moment, signing a deal with Holly? Yet you start a thread on it,, isn't that the same thing.. I mean,, "NOT letting things play out"!
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It's called negotiations the team wants the player on the cheep and the player wants the team on the expessive, sometimes they find common ground sometimes they don't.
You are correct on that, I agree 100%.. Tactics,, that's all it is.. Everyone knows it and that's the way it always plays out..
The thing I hate about some agents and players is the way they make it public... TO, Chad Johnson, Drew Rosenhaus...even to an extent, the thing with Winslow yesterday saying he hopes to get a new deal..
I just feel as if those things should be behind closed doors... But that's just me! I personally don't care for all the postering and pandering to the public.. it's not like as if we can do anything about it..
I mean, seriously,, do you think I"m gonna call Phil Savage and tell him what he should do with winslows contract? That's just too funny when you think about it..
I better get off my soap box on this subject, I can pontificate for hours on the subject if you let me
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 118
Practice Squad
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Practice Squad
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 118 |
This situation won't be about any type of money that Daven is demanding. He's a restricted free agent which means we can tender him a contract for several different amounts. I'm sure almost all of you are familiar with restricted free agency. I'm sure Phil will tender him a contract and we'll go from there. If it's 850,000 then we'll be able to match any offer sheet and if we don't we'll get a draft pick equal to where he was selected ( 7th round right?). Then there's the second round tender and the first and third round tender (which everyone should be familiar with because of the DA situation). In any event, we'll tender him something and see if any team gives Daven an offersheet. I doubt any team would sign him to anything too expensive. With our cap situation and the posistion he plays I wouldn't be opposed to giving him something like 1.5 million a year over the life of the contract. We've all seen what happens when you get injuries in the secondary. You have POS's like Ralph Brown as your 3rd corner and you can't stop any team's passing attack. I really like Daven. Who can forget his pick six against the Steelers two years ago? Oh, and yes I immediately regret brining up that game because I still can't watch highlights of it without getting sick to my stomach... 
Time and change will surely show
How firm thy friendship
O - HI - O
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,523
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
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Holly will be the 4th corner this coming season.Players in that spot better bring something else to the table,usually ST,as 4th corners don't get alot of playing time.I don't recall even if he plays on ST's.
Daman,I'll do you one better,not only is he replaceable,I'd be surprised if he's here next year.The Browns aren't going to invest alot in him,and he,mostly likely,will be wanting to go somewhere else.
This is a situation that happens frequently on teams with talent and depth,and something we might have to get used to.
Indecision may,or maynot,be my problem
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Joined: Sep 2006
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,960 |
Quote:
Daman,I'll do you one better,not only is he replaceable,I'd be surprised if he's here next year.The Browns aren't going to invest alot in him,and he,mostly likely,will be wanting to go somewhere else.
This is a situation that happens frequently on teams with talent and depth,and something we might have to get used to.
Well, first off, yeah, I think you all know by now that I think he IS replaceable..
But I DO want him back.. He did a pretty good job here. when he had to, he stepped up. So while I feel he's replaceable, I want him to remain..
Now, if he comes in and someone else we bring in beats him out,, so be it.. we all want the best guys,, right?
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,950
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,950 |
Quote:
I wished people would let things playout a bit before putting a lable on a player as being anything
That statement falls under the lable of "Commen Sence" (Loud god like Voice saying "Commone Sence")....and that my friend will never happen
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 11,850
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 11,850 |
Quote:
The Browns aren't going to invest alot in him,and he,mostly likely,will be wanting to go somewhere else.
This is a situation that happens frequently on teams with talent and depth,and something we might have to get used to.
Question:
Is there a difference between Jason Wright and Daven Holly?
Seems to me that Wright isn't anything special, but yet he has been our 2nd string RB for the past 3 or so years... Holly isn't anything special either, but he has contributed a lot to help our defense. The team needs talent behind the starter, and having someone in there who knows the game is always a plus to me.
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Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Daven Holley RFA
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