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I've always felt that there was a certain degree of indoctrination in our education systems.
That's your opinion, and I won't call you nuts or anything 
The whole point of this topic is ... if that is your viewpoint and you DON'T want your child indoctrined because you hold this opinion ... then you don't have a choice in the matter, unless you want to pay for private school.
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If you are so strongly opposed to allowing your children to learn either side of the argument, then you are only setting them up for failure. Teaching one and blatantly discouraging the other will stunt your child's ability to *gasp* choose their own spiritual / religious path in life. Allow them to choose what to believe...don't make them believe it.
This is such a garbage argument, I had to revisit it. If you truely belived this "teach them both sides and let the child decide", then you would have no problem with sending ALL kids to "Sunday school" and letting them get both sides of the story. Of course ... this argument only applies to kids who's parents are Christian. If they are athiest, then they don't need the other side. 
Or leave religion out of it completely and leave that to be taught where it should be taught.. at home. Hence the separation of church and state.
KING
You may be in the drivers seat but God is holding the map. #GMSTRONG
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Or leave religion out of it completely and leave that to be taught where it should be taught.. at home. Hence the separation of church and state.
If you want to argue "seperation of church and state" then seperate the "state" part out of the "religion" too. Everybody loves to go one way on this but not the other. If someone doesn't want to send thier kid to public school on religious grounds ... it should be well within thier rights. Just as it should be in the rights of a another person to not have religion forced onto their kids at school if they don't want it to. If you want it to work one way, then it should work the other way too.
Which was my original point with the above statement. If you want to argue that christian kids need to go to public school because of a lame, "they need to see BOTH sides" argument ... then you should have no issue with sending the non-religious kids to a christian school to get that second opinion that seems so important.
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This is totally infringing on a parents rights to rais thier child as they see fit.
A parent that is most likely staying at home while schooling thier children should be congratulated, those kids aren't going to be the ones shooting other kids in school, causing trouble or spending thier juvinile life in trouble all the time.
The more power taken away from the parent the worse off our children will be.
This country is quickly becoming a socialized nannystate.
Ruining QB's since 1999.
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If they wanted to, they could teach your kid whatever the heck they wanted
This was my parents' main beef... the whole big bang vs. creation thing. (among other stuff)
My problem with sheltering your kids is eventually, they WILL be exposed to the world, it's inevitable. And a lot of times (not all the time), kids who were the most sheltered, end up being the most screwed up when they grow up.
(Exhibit A: OnB) 
screwed up by who's standards?
Ruining QB's since 1999.
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If you are so strongly opposed to allowing your children to learn either side of the argument, then you are only setting them up for failure. Teaching one and blatantly discouraging the other will stunt your child's ability to *gasp* choose their own spiritual / religious path in life. Allow them to choose what to believe...don't make them believe it.
This is such a garbage argument, I had to revisit it. If you truely belived this "teach them both sides and let the child decide", then you would have no problem with sending ALL kids to "Sunday school" and letting them get both sides of the story. Of course ... this argument only applies to kids who's parents are Christian. If they are athiest, then they don't need the other side.
Or leave religion out of it completely and leave that to be taught where it should be taught.. at home. Hence the separation of church and state.
KING
please show me anywhere in federal law that has the term "separation of church and state"
this is a term liberals made up, for ignorant people to use as a catch phrase.
what does the constitution say? "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;"
this means that the government can't tell you what religon you have to follow, this does not protect you from driving through a town that is a majority catholic and seeing a manger scene in the front lawn of the elementary school. As somone said, you can't have it both ways, there are plenty of people that say, "dont shove religon down my throat", yet they are more than willing to shove thier culture in the face of everyone they are around.
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Sheesh.  Getting back to the original article. I think the California decision is okay. A parent should get a degree in education if he/she wants to home school their children. Educating children is an important job and the person who is doing the educating should be educated in the field. No one is saying that the parents can't home school their children. They are saying they should be qualified. I know of children who have been taken out of school under the pretense of being home schooled, but are really taken out because the parent needs that child to watch younger siblings while she is at work and at the bars. I know another two children who were home schooled because the distance the mother had to travel each day "inconvenienced" her lifestyle. I suspect that most parents who home school their children have honorable intentions. However, just like everything else, there are people who manipulate the system. And in this particular issue, the results can be tragic. We must protect the children, and yes people, sometimes that includes from their own parents. Our society is infested w/incompetent parents. Their numbers grow each year. I can tell you a thousand stories about the horrors of poor parenting. I'll give you one example that might move you. I had a middle school student in Cleveland about 4 years ago. He was in foster care because he had been taken from his mother. The mother was a crack whore who had been "home schooling" her son. Too bad her version of home schooling included selling her son's body to men for the purposes of sex. This boy had deep-seated issues that I don't think he will ever resolve. He had a tremendous amount of anger, especially towards females w/authority. I worked very hard to get this kid help, but he was so confused. He was an extremely large individual who alternately beat the living crap out of fellow students or took articles of clothing and danced around like a provocative female. Where am I going w/this? You want to home school your children? Fine, get a degree in education just like we do. If getting an Education degree is too time-consuming and too big of an inconvenience, perhaps that should be an indication that you really don't have the time or commitment to provide your child w/an adequate education.
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us."
--Ralph Waldo Emerson
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Versatile Dawg---
With all due respect for the good teachers of the nation, your examples of criminal behavior by lousy parents does nothing to bolster the case for mandating certificate only home schooling anywhere.
Here you list a group of criminal parents who abuse their kids for money and profit at the expense of the kids education and then use this to condemn the homeschooling movement in California?
Would you like me to list one hundred or so cases of criminal activity by degreed teachers involving sexual abuse of minors,drug activity and countless other crimes? These crimes were perpetrated by well respected teacher union members against society in general and juvenile students in particular.
While certification may be the way to go to weed out the small percentage of frauds abusing the homeschooling program, it may also discourage capable parents of participating in the most important job a parent has...to educate and protect their children.
The American people will never knowingly adopt Socialism. But under the name of 'liberalism' they will adopt every fragment of the Socialist program, .
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Valid point.
But, the basic premise is this. If you do not have the time or energy to get certified in education, what makes you think you have the time or energy to educate your child?
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us."
--Ralph Waldo Emerson
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If you want to argue "seperation of church and state" then seperate the "state" part out of the "religion" too. Everybody loves to go one way on this but not the other. If someone doesn't want to send thier kid to public school on religious grounds ... it should be well within thier rights. Just as it should be in the rights of a another person to not have religion forced onto their kids at school if they don't want it to. If you want it to work one way, then it should work the other way too.
You wont get any argument from me on that one.
KING
You may be in the drivers seat but God is holding the map. #GMSTRONG
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Legend
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Valid point.
But, the basic premise is this. If you do not have the time or energy to get certified in education, what makes you think you have the time or energy to educate your child?
Getting you teaching credentials here means going to a four year college for degree, and then serving one year as an "intern". People can have all the energy in the world, but time is at a premium ... That means anyone wishing to home school there kids has to carve a nice 5 year block out of their life to go get credentialed to teach their own children. 
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You find that crazy? *L* And how much time do you think it takes to adequately educate your child?
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us."
--Ralph Waldo Emerson
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What if I have an elementary certificate, but my kid is in junior high or high school? Does that still qualify me to teach them? What if I have a certificate in physical education? Does that qualify me to teach all subjects to my kids?
#gmstrong #gmlapdance
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How much spare time do you think parents have to run off to a college while trying to raise their children? By the way, I'm actually credentialled as a substitute in the state because I had a four year degree in "something" and I passed a "credential test" that was so easy, I would of aced it straight out of high school. I'm probably smart enough to adequately teach my children in just about any subject I would want to, and I'd probably understand some of the material better than some current public school teachers that I met while teaching. But if I want to teach my kids, I'd have to quit my job and go to school for another 4 years, while helping to raise my kids on the side.
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Like anything else, it is best to have a plan.
If one is truly convinced that home schooling his/her child is the best way to, then that person should prepare for the job, just like a teacher in a public school has to.
Get your degree before it's time to put your child in school. I think it is amazing that there hasn't been legislation before this point. Anyone can home school their child, regardless of ability, training, and capabilities.
Please don't get offended. I am not speaking about you. But there are a lot of people who are not prepared to handle such an important job. What's next? Do you think parents should have the right to operate on their children because there has been cases of doctors making errors?
Home schooling your children w/out a degree in education? Sounds like something that is more in tune w/life on the prairie in a by-gone century.
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us."
--Ralph Waldo Emerson
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j/c "Deliberate Dumbing Down of America 400+ pages of historical documentation and analysis, organized chronologically, detailing the 20th century of the American education system. Written by a member of the department of education hired during the Reagan administration. Detailing the deliberate failure of the American school systems. Homeschooling your kids is an inherent right, you own your kids, not the government. You should not need to pay the government (becoming "accredited") to teach your children.
Last edited by Kingcob; 03/08/08 12:04 PM.
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What's next? Do you think parents should have the right to operate on their children because there has been mases of doctors making errors?
BIG -- H.U.G.E. -- reach there, Vers. 
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Home schooling your children w/out a degree in education?
So, tell us, what exact parts of a teaching degree would help one educate their kids at home over those that don't have the same degree....
And, what about my question? If I have a PE degree, does that qualify me to educate my kids at home? A physical education degree IS a teaching degree, after all.
#gmstrong #gmlapdance
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Some interesting reading...this is a Q&A from here... Here is an excerpt from a recent study of homeschoolers: "According to a report published by the Educational Resources Information Center (ERIC) and funded by the Office of Educational Research and Improvement, U.S. Department of Education, homeschool student achievement test scores were exceptionally high. The median scores for every subtest at every grade were well above those of public and Catholic/private-school students. On average, homeschool students in grades one to four performed one grade level above their age-level public/private school peers on achievement tests. Students who had been homeschooled their entire academic life had higher scholastic achievement test scores than students who had also attended other educational programs." One interesting facet of the study noted that academic achievement was equally high regardless of whether the student was enrolled in a full-service curriculum, or whether the parent had a state-issued teaching certificate. The study states, "Even with a conservative analysis of the data, the achievement levels of the homeschool students in the study were exceptional. Within each grade level and each skill area, the median scores for homeschool students fell between the 70th and 80th percentile of students nationwide and between the 60th and 70th percentile of Catholic/Private school students. For younger students, this is a one year lead. By the time homeschool students are in 8th grade, they are four years ahead of their public/private school counterparts." Also, "Homeschool students did quite well in 1998 on the ACT college entrance examination. They had an average ACT composite score of 22.8 which is .38 standard deviations above the national ACT average of 21.0 (ACT, 1998). This places the average homeschool student in the 65th percentile of all ACT test takers." Also, be sure to visit the National Home Education Research Institute at www.nheri.org for more information. More info can be found here: Education Resources Information Center from the United Stated Department of Education.
#gmstrong #gmlapdance
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You may think I am loopy. And I am sure you know more about public education and home schooling than I do, so I will just leave it like this. To each his own.
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us."
--Ralph Waldo Emerson
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Gee, thanks for the discussion (and assumptions).
#gmstrong #gmlapdance
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I thought I had discussed it previously. You completely ignored some of the examples I provided. There are many, many more. I tried to give you a sampling. You chose to ignore them. I do know for a fact that most home schooled kids have great parents and they do a very good job. However, when you have people who manipulate the system, action must be taken. And I don't know how much of an assumption it was...........you used this:
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us."
--Ralph Waldo Emerson
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I do know for a fact that most home schooled kids have great parents and they do a very good job. However, when you have people who manipulate the system, action must be taken.
Of course...just like there are teachers who shouldn't be teaching. Good and bad on both sides, but I don't see how one can generalize things to say that ALL parents should have formal teaching education to teach their own kids.
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And I don't know how much of an assumption it was...........you used this:
I used that in regard to you correlating home schooling your child to operating on them. And, about you saying I knew more about homeschooling than you...I never said that, or thought it, for that matter. All I was looking for was further discussion on this issue as I find it very interesting and want to get views from folks on both "sides".
#gmstrong #gmlapdance
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Well Michelle. I am not trying to convince anyone. I was simply expressing my viewpoints.
I value education tremendously. I think there needs to be accountability. I think that it is a profession and it is not something that everyone can or should do. I also think that if a parent places a great deal of importance on educating their child themselves, then they shouldn't mind becoming certified. It would eliminate the people that use the system and make things more accountable.
Education should be a life-long process and I really can't fathom anyone balking at furthering their own education, especially when they are planning on educating another human being.
As far as what degrees would be needed----------I just don't know. I am not qualified to even speculate on that. I'm not ducking the question, but I haven't had enough time to think about it and research it.
With all of that said..............Again, I am not trying to convince anyone to agree w/me. I am simply stating my opinions on a matter that I do have some knowledge about.
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us."
--Ralph Waldo Emerson
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All Pro
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Money isn't and should be the biggest issue... It may be to you... People make it out to be... There are either enough resources to educate our county's youth and adults reentering their degreed studies or their aren't.
Why don't you speak of the hundreds of thousands of great teachers/educators that don't do it for the $$$ first... Few teachers get into the profession for the $$$... They know going in... Come on man...
I've given some ideas... If we as parents gave more of our time, talent and $$$ to help our local schools the situation would be much better. There are many things we can do at school to help out. Second career? Retired from your fist career? Go get your teaching credential and become a valued resource.
Education is not a business nor is it run like one... Maybe it should be run like a business maybe it shouldn't be... I'm not a big proponent of unions. But I understand why they exist. If you asked a immigrant worker what their benefits are or how they get treated in the privatized sector I wonder what they would say...? Even though they may be better off here under these conditions than where they were...
Some of the people I work with are lazy and don't care either.... Those people come and go in any industry... Always have and always will.
If we can figure out how to get to the moon and back why can't we figure out how to improve education?
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You may think I am loopy. And I am sure you know more about public education and home schooling than I do, so I will just leave it like this. To each his own.
if you really believed what you just typed out, "To each his own." then you would be for the parent having thier right to teach thier kids as they please. Thats what the whole issue is about, parents having the right to teach thier kids . . . each thier own . . . way.
Ruining QB's since 1999.
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Not exactly. My point was that I wasn't trying to change anyone's mind. It's similar to telling a drunk not to have another drink. Logic and reason doesn't really get through to them. 
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us."
--Ralph Waldo Emerson
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One would think with all the options available via the internet, certification for parents who wish to be home schoolers should be available.
Same for the students, standardized testing for home schooled children should be mandatory. If they fall behind, then they are no longer allowed to be schooled at home.
Welcome back, Joe, we missed you!
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Same for the students, standardized testing for home schooled children should be mandatory.
It is
KING
You may be in the drivers seat but God is holding the map. #GMSTRONG
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Here is my deal with homeschooling.
How many of these kids ever get a 'D" or flat out flunk??
Whenever you here people call in on talk radio and such it is always about how much better their kid is doing. You never hear them talk about the student simply being pretty dim or a downright idiot.
I am sorry. I think some of these people have to be less than exceptional and can't recite Romeo and Juliet at the age of 6 and can't do advanced calculus at the age of 8.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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How many of these kids ever get a 'D" or flat out flunk??
That's part of the upside of homeschooling, IMO...most homeschooled kids don't get poor grades or flunk because most parents don't let it get to that point...unlike most schools.
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Whenever you here people call in on talk radio and such it is always about how much better their kid is doing. You never hear them talk about the student simply being pretty dim or a downright idiot.
Homeschooled students generally smarter than those in public school...look at test results to verify. Most are a grade level or more above those of their own age. And, here in Ohio, homeschoolers have to take tests to be sure they aren't dim. If parents are homeschooling for the right reasons, you shouldn't hear about the kid being an idiot.
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I am sorry. I think some of these people have to be less than exceptional and can't recite Romeo and Juliet at the age of 6 and can't do advanced calculus at the age of 8.
Just like those in public or private schools.
Are those your arguments against homeschooling? It's kind of hard to tell what you're going for here...
#gmstrong #gmlapdance
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Good for Cali! Hopefully all other states will follow.
Amen brother.. the last thing we need in this country is for parents to be deciding what is best for their kids. We need good solid people like the politicians of California to tell us how to parent. Keep up the good work. 
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People who aren't trained in a specific skill shouldn't be performing or teaching those skills. Period! IMO
Then why not just take the kids from them? I mean seriously, if they are so damn stupid that they can't teach their kids to add and subtract then they have zero rights even raising kids in the first place. The state needs to step in and do something about it.
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My accountant doesn't give me legal advice or representation, my attorney doesn’t perform the outpatient care I need and my Dr. doesn't due my taxes...
They are not your parents. Parents also sometimes give OTC medicine to their children and they are not doctors or pharmacists... Heck I even know some people who are not trained auto mechanics who change their own tires and change their own spark plugs and flush and fill their own transmissions. We can not have this. These people need to take their cars to trained auto mechanics to get this work done.. Do you know why the state of California has not mandated this? Quite simple, THEY DON'T CONTROL THE GARAGES. If they did, you can bet your butt that it would be required that you place your life in the hands of the government and take your car to a garage for routine maintenance.
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How do we improve the education system; by investing in it properly empowering those who are qualified to do so, and by improving the environment that our kids are in.
Fine, start by getting the lawyers and politicians the hell out of it. They are the ones that ruined it in the first place. I have all the respect in the world for teachers, I have virtually none for meddelsome politicians. Let's look into the backgrounds of these elected legislators to find out their experience and why they feel compelled to write energy policy. Think any of them are formally educated in writing energy legislation? or environmental legislation? or education legislation? or think any of them are trained in economics enough to write tax legislation for California whose GDP is greater than all but a handful of countries? No, they don't. Think any of them are formally trained to do 1/10th of what they do every day? I think not.
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We fix it like we fix every thing else that needs fixed.
Right, we turn it over to the government because their track record for fixing broken things is so stellar... I'm surprised and ashamed Boise. I thought you were FOR the rights of the individual over the state.
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Education should be a top priority in this country, but it is not.
It is a top priority. It is a top priority to every parent that I know, unfortunately we have almost no say in what it is that our kids learn and now in California, you have even less. Our kids learn what the lawyers and the bureaucrats want them to learn and they learn it the way they want them to learn it. My son is in the 6th grade. The kid cannot tell you the difference between the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution because they don't study it.... but he has a deep understanding of the Kyoto Treaty and why the United States is evil for not signing it. You tell me there is no agenda? There is a huge freaking agenda and my one saving grace used to be that if I ever got fed up enough that I could pull him out and teach him myself.. but now, if I lived in California, that option is no longer available to me. All hail the government.
The more I think and write about this the more it ticks me off. I find it absolutely hilarious that if the state of California was invading peoples bedrooms everybody would be all upset but invade the dining room table where studying gets done and they get applauded.... un-freakin-believable. This is the typical BS that everybody in this country seems to fall for and it goes like this... "It wouldn't be a problem for me, I'm smart enough to teach my kids... but it's THOSE OTHER people out there that are not, so we have to go save their kids from their own parents. Yes, we must save them from their parents who are willing to devote the time and energy and love to educate the kids the way they want them educated."
I think I'm going to puke.
yebat' Putin
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I'm not sure what you are arguing Peen ... or if you're being funny. I did a "google" for homeschool passing rates versus public school, and came up with an interesting page: http://www.hslda.org/docs/nche/000010/200410250.aspGranted it's from a site about home school, so I can't vouche for the "biased-ness" of it. But there are quite a few interesting figures in there if you want to read it. One study showed there was NO difference in test scores between kids that were home schooled by credentialed parents and non-credentialed ones. A few other studies showed that home-schooled kids scored much better in Basic Skills Tests than kids in Public schools. To what king was saying ... As far as I know, standardized tests are already required for homeschooled children. So it's not like parents can just push them through whatever set of tests they want and rubber stamp it with a "pass". They have to pass the same tests as everyone else ... and according to statistics ... it seems like they are passing at a much higher rate than kids being taught by those far superior "accredited" public school teachers. A few other things to add. California already had a standardized "lesson plan" that homeschooled kids needed to follow. Parents had to follow that and then also have their kids pass the same standardized testing other kids had to take. So there was already quite a bit in place to verify that kids were beign taught correctly. Also, California has a couple different credentials. One is for multiple subject teachers, which would teach elementary school ... the other is for single subject, high-school type teaching. Now does that mean a parent would have to go out and get BOTH credentials to continue teaching their kid past 6th grade?
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Joined: Sep 2006
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 14,248 |
Oh but DC ... if they cared so much, they'd just quit work and go to school for 5 YEARS to get a peice of paper that says they are qualified.
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Not only 5 years. I was reading that California wanted you certified in the grade level of your child. So, once they get to high school, you would have to be certified in every subject at ever grade level.
#gmstrong #gmlapdance
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Joined: Sep 2006
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 14,248 |
Quote:
Not only 5 years. I was reading that California wanted you certified in the grade level of your child. So, once they get to high school, you would have to be certified in every subject at ever grade level.
Yep, I just made a note of that a few posts up. Now, I think you pretty much have to surrender your kids to the public school system after 6th grade.
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Quote:
Not only 5 years. I was reading that California wanted you certified in the grade level of your child. So, once they get to high school, you would have to be certified in every subject at ever grade level.
I am not completely sure on this but if I remember right, once you have your teaching degree you take a certification test. I think if you go from ,say elementrary to JR High, you would just have to take the new certification test, not go back to school and get a whole new degree.
Regardless, it sems to me like the teachers union is behind this whole legislation. I dont think they like the fact that their jobs are being undermined by home schooling parents.
KING
You may be in the drivers seat but God is holding the map. #GMSTRONG
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Joined: Sep 2006
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 14,248 |
Quote:
I am not completely sure on this but if I remember right, once you have your teaching degree you take a certification test. I think if you go from ,say elementrary to JR High, you would just have to take the new certification test, not go back to school and get a whole new degree.
I'm not exaclty sure how it works here, but you have to have at least a one year "internship" to get credentialed. I'm not sure if you would have to redo the internship for each subject credential you are trying to get though.
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Regardless, it sems to me like the teachers union is behind this whole legislation. I dont think they like the fact that their jobs are being undermined by home schooling parents.
My wife was thinking that the school system was in favor of this, just to get some more money. They get federal money based on the number of students, so if they can force more students into the schools, that's just more money for them to play with. She wasn't surprised at all that this came out right after the governor cut some funding for education.
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Legend
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Legend
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Quote:
I'm not sure what you are arguing Peen ... or if you're being funny.
To both you and Michelle
Possibly having a little fun with the comments.....but my point is I don't think a parent is totally objective if a kid does fall behind.
This is a active topic on talk radio all the time. You always hear parents calling up telling you how well the kids do.....just the law of averages says some of these kids are going to be challenged.
But whenever they call, it is to give a resume' for their child.
Personally I think it somewhat dorky to keep your kids locked up at home...but that is just my personal view....to each their own on that accord.
But I do think the parents need to be able to show they are qualified.....not to be a parent.....but to educate from an academic point of view.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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Personally I think it somewhat dorky to keep your kids locked up at home...but that is just my personal view....to each their own on that accord.
Right...it's much better to have them locked up all day in classrooms. HS kids are actually out of the house on field trips far more than people seem to assume.
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But I do think the parents need to be able to show they are qualified.....not to be a parent.....but to educate from an academic point of view.
Parents show "qualification" as long as the kids are passing standardized tests.
#gmstrong #gmlapdance
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Quote:
[My wife was thinking that the school system was in favor of this, just to get some more money. They get federal money based on the number of students, so if they can force more students into the schools, that's just more money for them to play with. She wasn't surprised at all that this came out right after the governor cut some funding for education.
Your wife is right also, this is similar to the reason why the teachers union and the school systems are opposed to the charter schools. They dont want the competition for students, and funding. My only problem with the charter school programs is that they arent available to all students, they are only available to low income students.
KING
You may be in the drivers seat but God is holding the map. #GMSTRONG
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Forums DawgTalk Tailgate Forum California bans uncertified
homeschooling
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