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Sorry, didn't see you ask a question..
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I wonder what their failure rate is when it is found out the kid is 2-3 years behind, the parents have taken the kid as far as they can and now drop him/her off in a public school???.....
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But my kids aren't yours.
True....so I suppose you support parents who spank their kids??
They aren't your kids.
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the ability of the parent will be reflected in the test scores of their children. It's a simple concept...if I suck as a teacher, my kid will get low test scores. If that happens, they get put into public or private school.
I have no problem with the success stories. It's the other I worry about.
A little preemptive action isn't unreasonable.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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I screwed up all the quotes here, and I don't feel like fixing them...sorry. Quote:
Sorry, didn't see you ask a question..
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I wonder what their failure rate is when it is found out the kid is 2-3 years behind, the parents have taken the kid as far as they can and now drop him/her off in a public school???.....
I answered that.
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But my kids aren't yours.
True....so I suppose you support parents who spank their kids??
They aren't your kids.
That's correct. However, if it borders on abuse, I will step in.
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the ability of the parent will be reflected in the test scores of their children. It's a simple concept...if I suck as a teacher, my kid will get low test scores. If that happens, they get put into public or private school.
I have no problem with the success stories. It's the other I worry about.
A little preemptive action isn't unreasonable.
 The kids are tested...just like public school children. What more would you like? Give ideas instead of repeating the same stuff over and over.
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I'd hate to see a redneck home school their kids without any regulation.
Are you joking here? 
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I have no problem with the success stories. It's the other I worry about.
A little preemptive action isn't unreasonable.
That's fine Peen and I sort of agree... but how many failure stories are there in the public schools? How many kids slip through the cracks or get passed along so the school can maintain the funding?
No system is ever going to be perfect although reading about Finland was interesting... they do something we can't do, which is hire qualified teachers and then actually let them do their job. We hire teachers and then the bureaucrats tell them what to teach, when to teach it, how to teach it, what to say, what not to say, how to test it, etc... why do we need qualified teachers? We could do that with video monitors and a $8/hour babysitter. If you're going to go get qualified teachers, then give them some latitude to do their job.
yebat' Putin
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LOL....sorry...I don't think I am the only one to keep repeating myself if I may offer a self-defense.
To repeat myself again...I don't have a problem with home schooling.....if the right people are doing it for the right reasons.
I guess I will leave it at that.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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I'm sorry, but if anyone can say with a straight face that the government run public education system isn't filled with failure after failure, they are lying to themselves.
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LOL....sorry...I don't think I am the only one to keep repeating myself if I may offer a self-defense.
Oh, I'm totally repeating myself because you keep saying the same thing.  So, it's both of us.
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To repeat myself again...I don't have a problem with home schooling.....if the right people are doing it for the right reasons.
The "right people" in your mind have to be certified to teach. That's where we differ. If I ran across something I don't understand while trying to teach, I would have to educate myself or get educated so that I can then pass along the concept to the kids. (Something I would HOPE school teachers do as well.) It's not like I would just skip it entirely. Home-based education is sometimes an education for the parent as well...not a bad thing at all. I love learning. I hated it in school, but I love it as an adult. I don't see the issue with passing that along.
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And in case you don't entirely understand it yourself, they provide comprehensive lesson plans that explain everything.
I wouldn't be all that against having a "credential test" that parents would need to pass before schooling their kids. Just as long as the test doesn't become some sort of "secret handshake" that only college students would know the answers to and had no bearing on how well a person could teach a child. A simple test is a much more reasonable request than requiring parents to carve 5 years out of their lives to get a degree.
I took a test to get substitute teaching credentials, and it was rediculously easy ... something I could of probably passed by the ninth grade.
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Well Peen, I tried to stay out of this but I can't any longer thanks to your comments.  Quote:
Home schoolers are somewhat of a cult....and many think religion is somewhat cultish....let them do what they want.
There are many, many reasons people home school their children. Some do it because they don't agree with what they teach in public schools, or the personal agendas of many teachers. Some do it because the public schools in there area are plain awful. I also know that some kids have learning disabilities that are not being addressed in public schools so the parents do what is best for their children.
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If keeping your kids sequestered in the confines of the home with Mom and Dad is a good idea....do it.
 My sister has home schooled her children from day one. Although I have disagreed with her decsion it has nothing to do with her children being sequestered.
They go to gym classes a couple of times a week, as well as music classes and field trips. They do these things with other children.
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The problem as I see it isn't with good folks like most who post here....it is probably aimed at the "cults" who think morning chants is somehow educating their kids.
How many people do you actually think fit this definition?
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Would a guy like Charlie Manson be a good home school teacher??
No. How about those teachers that molest their students? How about those teachers who use the same materials year after year and don't interact with their students? There are far too many teachers who are disinterested in teaching. They go through the motions, telling the kids to read a chapter, give out dittos and tests.
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know that is a extreme, but it seems to me many are opposed to some certification assuming the parent is going to do a good job.
There are standards set forth by Ohio that insures the parents are teaching what they should. Does that mean their good teachers? No. There are also countless teachers that are certified that aren't any good either.
Someone made the comment about people home schooling kids without degrees or formal schooling. I wonder how many people realize how many teachers teach in something other then their major. My wife is a certified 1-8th grade teacher. Her college majors in education were English and Library science. She has taught math and science. Sure she has a basic backround in all subjects, but like me she has to read the information my son is given in order to check his homework. Not all that different then my sister.
#gmstrong
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telling the kids to read a chapter, give out dittos and tests.
dittos? How old are you? 
yebat' Putin
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telling the kids to read a chapter, give out dittos and tests.
dittos? How old are you?
Ditto that! 
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telling the kids to read a chapter, give out dittos and tests.
dittos? How old are you?
They still give them. They may be called something else now, but they are still the same thing.
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j/c
For those of you wanting to require "credential" to home school kids, I wish I could show a copy of my first grade daughters "homework" pages.....why? Hold on - she is taught by a "certified" teacher in public school. The certified teacher has a curriculum chosen by the school and mandated by the state.
Here's the catch: This "curriculums" homework sheets - printed by the company, contains so many spelling errors it is pathetic. Add to that the "directions" (you know - the directions that mom and or dad are supposed to read in order to tell the student/child what to do) are so ambiguous that even myself and my wife had a disagreement on Sunday about what was required for our daughter to do her homework "correctly". I read the directions, told my daughter what to do - my wife came over, read them, and told my daughter to do something different............now - how in the hell can a company that provides curriculum for a school have words spelled wrong, and ambiguous directions? Wanna know? That company is certified by the state...........so, in other words, screw doing something right, just get certified, print some crap out, and sell it.
For those of you that feel home schooled children are children of some religious cult - give me a freaking break. That's pathetic. I would guess more "religious" people home school than non religious. But I would also guess that "religious" people put forth more effort, and over all spend more quality time with their kids than the non religious. Quality time, and what a parent and child do with it, matters SO much more than "credentials" it is laughable. Teaching is not just saying "2+2=4". Teaching is a lifestyle - at least for the kids that are homeschooled.
Some of you seem to think private schools are better than public schools because of the money.......HELLO?????? Private schools are better simply because the students have expectations at school AS WELL AS AT HOME!!! They are expected to put forth the effort - by their teacher and by their parents - and - boom, they do well in school.
For those that want "credentialed" at home schooling, you ever stop to think that the at home schooled childrens parents are not only spending money to fund the public schools, they are spending extra out of their pocket in order to school their own children? There IS a financial incentive - they already pay property taxes and school taxes, whether they own or rent (renters school taxes, it's just that most are too dumb to realize it).
Also, the people that choose to spend the time and money to homeschool are also those that choose to spend TIME with their kids.
I will guarantee the home schooled kids whose parents aren't capable of home schooling (not "credentialed", by the way) will fall by the wayside regardless of being home schooled or publicly schooled. Guarantee.
Plus, how many home schooled kids have parents that don't know the value of an education, even just a h.s. diploma? Here's an answer - just about 0!!!!!
Lazy, uneducated people don't home school. Lazy, uneducated parents send their kids to public school. They are, after all, lazy. And before you jump my ass, I send my kids to public school. I do not home school. (well, my son is in college now - but he went to a public school - 3 semesters in, he's dean's list all 3 - at Capital U. in columbus).
I volunteer at least once a month, often twice a month - in my daughters class room at public school. Guess who I get to work with? The same 6 kids every time - kids that you can just tell mom and or dad send to school to get them out of their hair at home.....
I know several home schooled kids. They are polite, intelligent, courteous, intelligent, respectful, intelligent, and hard working. I know of no home schooled kid that is a problem. I also have a brother in law that was home schooled. I know his whole family. If everyone were like that family, this whole country would be better off.
All that said, I don't care for home schooling for my kids - my daughter now - it's not for us. Along with that - my wife and I spend much time with our daughter - reading to her, having her read to us - going over math cards - helping her with homeword, working on spelling words (for this week, my first grade daughter is being tested on: thought, person, through, animals, and some other word I don't remember) First grade.
Bottom line - the un credentialed people do a great job of home schooling over all. The un able don't even attempt it.
You can find exceptions to ANYTHING. The people that take the time and expense to home school are willing and able to teach their kids - plus, home schooling doesn't need to last through grade 12. Many home schooled children are turned over to public schools at the high school level.
So far in reading this thread, I don't see a single person that has a good reason to be against home schooling - not one single reason.
Then, throw in that home schooled children need to pass the same tests that publicly schooled children need to pass - and it's a no brainer - home schooling works for those that do it.
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My niese was home schooled, and graduated at 16 she is now in her first year of college and is carring a 3.4 gpa. so much for the home schooling?
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But I would also guess that "religious" people put forth more effort, and over all spend more quality time with their kids than the non religious.
Why on Earth would you think that?
#gmstrong #gmlapdance
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Not to speak for him, but I think he's sort of poking fun at the insinuation that all home-schooled kids are just religious nuts.
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Add to that the "directions" (you know - the directions that mom and or dad are supposed to read in order to tell the student/child what to do) are so ambiguous that even myself and my wife had a disagreement on Sunday about what was required for our daughter to do her homework "correctly". I read the directions, told my daughter what to do - my wife came over, read them, and told my daughter to do something different............now - how in the hell can a company that provides curriculum for a school have words spelled wrong, and ambiguous directions?
I have come home before and found my wife and son in heated arguments because she's reading the directions telling how to do it and he's saying that's wrong and that the teacher told them how to do it. I usually intervene and sometimes I have to read it 5 or 6 times to figure out what the question is.... and he's in 6th grade.
yebat' Putin
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My niese was home schooled, and graduated at 16 she is now in her first year of college and is carring a 3.4 gpa. so much for the home schooling?
Not at all - what I said was, in summary, my belief is, and my experience is, home schooling is good overall. Homeschooling is not for me, or my family, but I have no problem with home schooling.
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I WISH I could afford to stay home and school my kids...
yebat' Putin
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But I would also guess that "religious" people put forth more effort, and over all spend more quality time with their kids than the non religious.
Why on Earth would you think that?
I've tried twice to post a reply, and I know I'll only get flamed for what I typed, so for now, I'll not reply. I'll be back on later tonight and give you a response, I hope. I'm leaving tomorrow morning for a week in Bristol, so I don't want to get into a debate and then not be around to reply. Hope that suffices for now.
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Oh, yeah?! 
#gmstrong #gmlapdance
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I WISH I could afford to stay home and school my kids...
Tell your wife to pick it up a notch or two.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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But I would also guess that "religious" people put forth more effort, and over all spend more quality time with their kids than the non religious.
Why on Earth would you think that?
Very simply - my experience. If your experience is different, so be it.
I do get tired of people bashing religion. No, the "religious" are not perfect - I'm the perfect example.
I do not wish for this to turn into an "arch is a religious zealot" thread, nor do I wish to say "michelle is wrong", or "anti religious people are wrong".
I have my beliefs, and I do my best to live by them. If my wife and I died tonight, I would want my daughter raised by someone that was "religious" - someone that would continue to teach my daughter that there IS a higher power that we will answer to at some time. Someone that teaches right from wrong, and LIVES it. The "living" it part being the key.
I would guess that is not a good enough explanation for you, or the many other "religion" non likers - but that's all I can offer right now.
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All Pro
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Like it or not we are all teachers -- long before pre-school or Kindergarten.
Those are the most important years also.
Go Irish!
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Of course you think it was coincidence... That comes as no surprise... I know it's not coincidence...
How many homeschool kids kill other students or their family's? What does this have to do with anything?
WOW!!! No you're reaching big time...
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Kinda ironic that the people who are complaining about how long it takes to get a degree are the same ones who spend ALL DAY on this message board.  They do have on-line classes now. Just a thought if you all are so adamant about home-schooling your children. Nah, it's easier to complain, waste time, and blame the government. 
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us."
--Ralph Waldo Emerson
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But I would also guess that "religious" people put forth more effort, and over all spend more quality time with their kids than the non religious.
Why on Earth would you think that?
Very simply - my experience. If your experience is different, so be it.
I do get tired of people bashing religion. No, the "religious" are not perfect - I'm the perfect example.
I do not wish for this to turn into an "arch is a religious zealot" thread, nor do I wish to say "michelle is wrong", or "anti religious people are wrong".
I have my beliefs, and I do my best to live by them. If my wife and I died tonight, I would want my daughter raised by someone that was "religious" - someone that would continue to teach my daughter that there IS a higher power that we will answer to at some time. Someone that teaches right from wrong, and LIVES it. The "living" it part being the key.
Arch, I think it's great that religion is so important to you and you want to share that with your kids, but I still don't understand your comment that religious folks "spend more quality time with their kids than the non religious".
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I would guess that is not a good enough explanation for you, or the many other "religion" non likers - but that's all I can offer right now.
Who said I didn't like religion? Big assumption there, don't you think? I just don't think it's fair to say religious parents make better parents.
Have a good trip!
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I haven't left yet, but thanks.  I know there are religious freaks out there - in christianity and every other religion. I can only speak from my life experience. And I don't mean "teaching kids religion" is great. What I mean is "showing kids, through your life, that religion is good"..can't beat that. I guarantee, if more in this society appreciated and adhered to religion, it would be a better society. Take that as you will. I am not a religious zealot. However, I was brought up in a religious family. Christian. I have seen society. I have screwed up many times. I'm not preaching, I'm just saying....when I lay down at night, I wish more people had religion. Not even my religion......I just wish more people lived by the word of God - even Allah (can't believe I just said that). Contrary to popular belief, religion is good. Religious fanatics are bad, granted. Problem is, we live in a society that screams " if it feels good, do it - you're entitled".
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Kinda ironic that the people who are complaining about how long it takes to get a degree are the same ones who spend ALL DAY on this message board.
They do have on-line classes now. Just a thought if you all are so adamant about home-schooling your children. Nah, it's easier to complain, waste time, and blame the government.
I really don't understand what you are trying to say. Most on here are defending the right of those who want to home school, not actually doing it themselves. As far as blaming the government, why not? Public education is very dysfunctional in many parts of the country and government has much to do with it.
From the way education is financed, proficency testing and they way the states breakdown what districts get what money. I know you are an educator and I find it hard to believe that you don't see government as a big part of the problem. I'm not saying it is the biggest (I think apathy of parents is the biggest) but it is a large factor.
#gmstrong
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Kinda ironic that the people who are complaining about how long it takes to get a degree are the same ones who spend ALL DAY on this message board.
... says the man with even more posts than me.
And there's a big difference between a few minutes a day on a message board and 5 YEARS of trying to get a teaching degree. And I'm NOT talking about myself either. There are plenty of reasons people might not have the extra time and especially the extra money to get credentialed.
By the way ... I was trying to think of just ONE certified profession that requires you to be certified in order to do something for yourself or for your family. Everything I could think of would allow you to be uncertified as long as your work met certain standards or codes ... similar to what the standardized testing would do. Even doctor fit that description. You can be your own laywer, your own mechanic, your own carpenter, your own electrician, your own firefighter, your own computer tech guru, your own massage therapist, your own home security, your own physical trainer, etc, etc, etc. Seems to me that teachers are the only ones that seem to think that they have to require you to send your kids to them.
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You can be your own laywer,
You can't be your kids lawyer.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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You can't be your kids lawyer.
Has this been a recent ruling? I did a quick google search and it said something about a 2005 ruling.
That just makes it teaching and law, where you can't serve your own family's interests without certification ... ironically, the two most messed up public systems in the country.
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Home schooling doesn't equal sheltering in most cases, though.
I think in most cases it does.
Much as Exel said "along moral and Religious lines".
However, "programming and indoctrinating" children to "believe how you want them to believe" is JUST as "moraly wrong" IMO.
They wish to insulate their children from drugs, liberal teachings, evolution and the list goes on.
However, IF part of the "home schooling curriculum" would include activities that teach those kids to "interract with other children on a regular basis" I see nothing wrong with it. That and an annual test to insure these kids are "keeping up" in the acedemics needed to be prepared for college.
I believe it's a two edged sword. ie........Bush "never heard" that gas may reach $4.00 a gallon?
Sometimes you can "overinsulate" children from reality. And once reality finaly "hits them" they are often times not prepared to deal with it.
On the flip side, I've seen people who were home schooled who did quite well and were MUCH better educated at home, than they would have been in our public education system.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Home schooling doesn't equal sheltering in most cases, though.
I think in most cases it does.
I still don't buy that over 50% of homeschooled students are sheltered. It happens, I'm sure, but at the rate homeschooling is growing in the U.S., I believe it's happening for the RIGHT reasons.
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Doing a little leg work myself, I may pull off my previous comment. I think there is a case pending before the Supreme Court to rule on the matter ...I was under the impression that ruling had already been made, but that was a lower court ruling that was challenged.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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Well I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.
I do know of "two cases" out of ALL of the people who were home schooled that did not involve "insulation" as the main driving force.
In both cases, their parents had doctorate degrees and felt they could actually teach their children better than public education. And in both of these cases, I agree.
However, I know of SEVERAL people that were home schooled due to Religious beliefs, not wanting their kids exposed to drugs, liberal teachings, and I could go on. But yes, it was to "insulate their children from the public school system and their teachings". Or, just society in general.
And I must say, the batting average for these kids wasn't "all that great". Some better than others, but key social skills were sorely missing in many such cases.
Of course things have changed a lot. But unless the parents have "teaching degrees or at least college degrees" why ELSE would they try to prevent "more equipped professionals" from teaching their kids?
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but at the rate homeschooling is growing in the U.S., I believe it's happening for the RIGHT reasons.
I don't doubt that. I would say the vast majority of the time the reasons are pure and with the right intent.
I still think it wise to test the parents before. To use the "do it for the kids" call....is it not worth it to us as a society to help protect the percentage of kids(however small) from falling behind because their parents are dopes??
I don't think the parents need be college graduates or anything along those lines(not to say that makes a person smarter), but I do think they need to be able to grasp a certain amount of material.
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I do know of "two cases" out of ALL of the people who were home schooled that did not involve "insulation" as the main driving force.
Only two cases out of ALL (2 something million) were not insulated? Wow.
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However, I know of SEVERAL people that were home schooled due to Religious beliefs, not wanting their kids exposed to drugs, liberal teachings, and I could go on. But yes, it was to "insulate their children from the public school system and their teachings". Or, just society in general.
There's a difference between parents wanting to "insulate their children from the public school system and their teachings". Or, just society in general", though. I don't want my kids in the public school system, but I don't want them stuck in the house all day avoiding society, either. As a matter of fact, being exposed to society is a big reason I want to homeschool.
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And I must say, the batting average for these kids wasn't "all that great". Some better than others, but key social skills were sorely missing in many such cases.
Social skills can be equally lacking in public school children. The thing I don't understand about the socialization argument is when else (besides school) in our lives are we strictly around peers within a year or so of our own age? The answer is never. Home schooled children have the chance to be far better socialized than institutionalized school children ever do. Which brings us back to the parent(s). If the parent has their childs best interest at heart, they will NOT try to turn them into house trolls.
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But unless the parents have "teaching degrees or at least college degrees" why ELSE would they try to prevent "more equipped professionals" from teaching their kids?
Who says teachers are more equipped to teach? Just because they hold a piece of paper in their hands? I would really like to know what it is an education student learns in college that makes them so much more equipped than others. I have to find a teacher to ask this question of, and I can do that. My family is full of them.
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I still think it wise to test the parents before. To use the "do it for the kids" call....is it not worth it to us as a society to help protect the percentage of kids(however small) from falling behind because their parents are dopes??
I understand your issue with this, I really do. But, homeschooled children are tested regularly. If they don't do well, other arrangements are made to help them "catch up"....just like the kids in public/private schools. If a parent passes your "test" to allow them to homeschool it doesn't mean they would do any better of a job than a parent that wasn't tested. I'm pretty sure most people know whether their really able to homeschool.
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What I find more disturbing is the numbers at which kids think they could quit school and just get their GED and be fine. It's the easy way out. Of the 4 kids I personally know well that have done this, and we won't even get into the parental issue of quitting school, only 1 actually put any effort into getting his GED and getting a job. The other 3, are sponging, partying, and basically doing nothing since they have all this free time. I never once considered quitting school when I was young, I even balanced work and school during high school. Sometimes I see the wasted youth and think maybe Herod was just saving a generation by killing the first born.
Last edited by FloridaFan; 03/12/08 01:04 PM.
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