DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum The Linebacking Corps......

Hey now! How about them Browns and the acquisitions on the defensive front? I am real excited! The offense is ready to go and the defense is just a couple pieces from being real dominant. Defensive Line.. CHECK (with authority. Secondary... will see later, there's a thread already dedicated to shoring that up. At LB, we have sure fire players like Wimbley and Jackson as no doubters... The questions I want to ponder into have to do with the linebackers.


A.) This is the biggest one on my mind right now. It has everything to do with Andra Davis. I have gotten so many mixed reviews from this board regarding his play, and I would be the judge of it for myself if I were able to actually get more Browns game on TV in my area. That is not the case so some people, please weigh in and discuss this...

Is this Defense better with Andra Davis? What are the strengths and weaknesses in his game? Throughout the seasons I've heard "he makes all his tackles 7 yards downfield" or this year "Give DQ some help... AD isn't cutting it". What's really going on with him? Is there someone else we can get who can upgrade the position at ILB? Or is he really solid and maybe can benefit from more help up front and being able to roam more freely...


B.) Outside Linebacker... Wimbley clearly needs some help, I'm sold on him and his pass rushing ability as he will only get better and develop more moves. As of now, we have him, Peek, and Willie Mac at our OLB spots. Peek was hurt a bit much and wasn't really wowing anyone away, and Willie Mac is a dinosaur who made Roethlisberger look like Barry Sanders... Who do you guys like in FA right now that can fill up the edges for us and get pressure on the QB, taking some off of Kam the Man? Or is it possible to move in the draft and find someone who can imact the position and who?


All in all... we're getting closer! This is EXCITING! Go Browns! WOOF!

I sure as hell don't understand what everyones prb is with dra....he is not a bad player....is he great? not really..he is pretty good ILB...that is all...he isn't ray lewis...

we can upgrade his spot but it's not a priority in my book...we need a OLB more then a ILB right now...infact we can also use another corner before we even get to ILB for an upgrade..

Check it out.This very topic is being discussed in depth on the veteran ledership thread.
Now that's exciting!

Outside Linebacker is a major question mark in my book. The new line will help everybody, but Willie is way too old and Peek is too undisciplined of a player. He focuses solely on getting to the QB, which he isn't bad at, but it allows teams to run to the outside on us.

Some people have said Peek's injuries held him back. IMO his mental game holds him back. It's the complaint he had in college and with the Texans, decent pass rusher but doesn't have the discipline. Therefore he is a major problem in run defense. Wimbley picked it up big time in his ability to play the run while rushing the passer. He also can play some sort of coverage.

Peek is one-dimentional. Just a pass rusher. So he's really just a situational guy.

And Willie is too old and has gotten too slow. He plays well against the run, and while he might not be the guy making plays he's in position so that the other team has to account for him. this helps our other players make the plays. But Willie offers little pass rush (many steps too slow to get to the QB, although he did bat down some passes and produce some pressure) and is somewhat of a liability now against the run because he can't run sideline to sideline against guys. He is our most disciplined LB though.

He's also only going to be getting worse, he's at that age where his game goes further downhill every year.

So yeah, OLB is going to be a major issue. I wonder if Chaun Thompson might be able to go back to that spot.................. He offers less pass rush but can drop into coverage and he has to play the run better than Peek. I hope we re-sign him

A case can be made that Davis is and has been the best defensive player on the team. He has been during his tenure, after all, the leading tackler. If those tackles are 5 yards down field, why is that? You can't pin it all on Davis can you? . IMO Davis gets less respect than he deserves.He will do fine with a new line in front of him. So will the other LBs.

Well...

On Willie McG's defense, remember he missed the first 4-6 games with back problems. They dont just go away in the middle of the season, so its very possible that he could play better this year.

With his back not hampering him, he may play better.

Peek though i 100% agree with you.

I also too wish we could let Chaun play the outside, thats where he belongs anyway.

My thoughts:

1. Willie isn't going to get better he's going to get worse. The guy is old and hurt...like Big Ted and O. Roye. They once were great players and leaders but there comes a time when thier ability cancels out their leadership.

Of course RAC is not gonna bench Willie ever, he's got a spot on our defense as long as he wants.


2. Andra has to replaced at some point but we had bigger needs than ILB, now that the OL and DL are fixed the LB's should get some attention next off-season.

3. Wimbley had a horrible year. He's not good against the run and OT's adjusted to his shoulder duck move and completely man-handled him most of the season. He needs to learn another move and learn to rush the passer without selling out and leaving a huge hole between the OT and OG.

Davis isn't a pro-bowl player, but he isn't the Wali Rainer some make him out.

Davis could probably start for about 1/3 of the teams.

As we get better, that might be a position we seek to improve.

That is just the way it goes. As a team gets better, it's marginal players have to either take a back-up role or seek out a crappy team.

I think Davis will get lot's of PT this year with a 3 man rotation in the middle.

So, to summarize your points you contend that Dra is
1) average to below average
2) looked better than he was b/c he was on a bad team
3) his departure or demotion will signal the imporvement of the LB corp

OK, I'll buy that

Quote:

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My thoughts:

1. Willie isn't going to get better he's going to get worse. The guy is old and hurt...like Big Ted and O. Roye. They once were great players and leaders but there comes a time when thier ability cancels out their leadership.

Of course RAC is not gonna bench Willie ever, he's got a spot on our defense as long as he wants.

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I think there's a big difference between what was expected of Big Ted and Roye vs. Willie, and, the talent needed to fill that expectation.

Ted and Roye needed brute strength as well as their experience to do what was expected of them. Brute strength on aging bodies gets lost and becomes ineffective over time.

Willie, while still needing strength and speed, needs more smarts and that doesn't fade with age. Quickly identifying where the play is going and being in the correct position to be effective is his greatest attribute. His experience and respect level allows him to help his teammates get into position and his own play is supurb vs. the run and sometimes as a rusher.

It's not an ability issue with Willie other than in speed needed for pass coverage or chasing plays from behind. His leadership and quality run defense ability is what makes him valuable to this team. There is no one on this team who can take his place in run support.

Is this Defense better with Andra Davis? What are the strengths and weaknesses in his game?

Watch several games and it's easy..
Strengths..leader , hard worker...excellent in pass coverage.

Weaknesses..inconsistant ..poor instincts..takes poor angles to ball carriers...has trouble shedding blocks..doesn't fill holes quickly..due to not having good instincts..
Not powerful enough.

U'll see Davis make 10-15 tackles one game..then never hear his name called the next..he takes himself out of plays too often..

Posting this here because it seems to fit this thread....



http://www.clevelandbrowns.com/article.php?id=8270

New D-line will help Wimbley
Steve King, Staff Writer
03.08.2008

Bodyguards are exactly that.

Their job is to protect someone-- even if it means sacrificing themselves.

In the 3-4 defensive alignment, the bodyguards are the "3" -- the down linemen, the two ends and the nose tackle. And they are charged with protecting the "4" -- the linebackers, two inside and two outside -- thus allowing them to rush the passer and/or go sideline to sideline making plays in the running game. They do this by occupying the offensive linemen.

We explain this in very rudimentary fashion because some people may not quite grasp the distinction of the roles in the "3-4" alignment. If they did, they might have a different understanding of why, for example, Browns outside linebacker Kamerion Wimbley for failing to produce the sack totals last year that he had had as a rookie in 2006.

Wimbley, the No. 13 overall pick in the 2006 NFL Draft, had 11 sacks that year, setting a franchise record for rookies. With a year under his belt, there were those who thought he would only improve upon those numbers in 2007.

And when it didn't happen -- he got five, still best on the team -- those people characterized his sophomore season as somewhat of a disappointment.

While Wimbley said he expected more of himself, and that he needed to do a better job of shedding blockers, there was much more to it than that.

In 2006 the defense basically kept the Browns in most games. Part of that came from the fact that Wimbley got more help from the defensive front - or the "3" in the 3-4. Just as the owner's manual of the 3-4 states, the defensive line absorbed the offensive lineman and freed him Wimbley up to make more plays. And he did.

But in 2007, the Browns added new pieces to the "3" - pieces that needed to grow together before they could reach their true potential. Before that could happen, injuries struck. As a result, Wimbley didn't have all the freedom he had enjoyed the previous year. With the defensive linemen not being as able to tie up the offensive linemen, Wimbley was getting double-teamed a lot more, and even triple-teamed on some plays.

As a result, he was a step late on a lot of his pass rushes. He was just missing the quarterback.

When the Browns recently traded to get defensive linemen Corey Williams and Shaun Rogers, two talented players who will command a lot of double-teams themselves, not many gave a thought as to how that might help Wimbley.

But Browns general manager Phil Savage said it best in a recent press conference. He did so by making a comparison.

"Last year, Braylon Edwards was able to show what his capabilities were because as a receiver, you have to have an offensive line, a quarterback and a running game," Savage said. "You're the last think in the chain in terms of your production.

"When we discussed internally the potential of adding a couple of legitimate defensive linemen, the first guy that popped into my mind was Kamerion Wimbley. We're hopeful that after adding 14 sacks from the inside (the combined sack totals of Williams and Rogers last season), you would think that is going to add at least four or five sacks to Kamerion's total next year.

"I think he will be a real beneficiary of us adding these two particular players."

Don't underestimate how this will help Andra Davis, DQ and Sean Jones with their up the middle blitzes. It may do more for them than Wimbley (who more than anything needs help on the other OLB spot).

Especially against Pittsburgh, now that they're softer up front and Ben's biggest weakness is up the middle pressure.

I agree that the new D-Line will help the LB's and pass rush immensely but I don't buy that Wimbley "double and triple team" stuff. I'm sure there were times he got doubled but more times than not, it was due to the fact that he only has ONE pass rush move and the tackle would just push him out of the way. He needs to develop new pass rush techniques.

The way KW is used is inefficient..
He ALWAYS puts his hand on the ground so offenses know he's always rushing.
Regardless of the front 3 his play against the run must improve..I saw him get rode outside too much , allowing the back to cut down where he should have been.
Other times he got sealed inside ..allowing the backs to hit and turn the corner..
he's got to get better at containment..

They also should stand him up, and move him around..why this isn't done completely baffles me..
Since Wimbley is a outside backer he needs to improve dropping down in pass coverage..develop more moves..

I agree about Wimbley. My hope is that he isn't a bit over rated.

It does no good to just keep rushing him in a predictable manner.

His speed move(his only move from what I have seen) served him well as a rookie. but now teams know the guy is quick to the outside and have made their adjustments with either a 2nd blocker on him, but more on point, someone to chip him. If the tackle can get that allowing his to get set, Wimbley seems to be handled by most.

Keep him up and change his angle of attack once in a while.

I know I mentioned this before, but Wimbley did a delayed blitz over center against the Raiders in '06 and he destroyed Walter. I haven't seen that same play called since to my recollection.

to the last 3 posts.

On Kam, what I kept reading over and over and over, is that he became infinitely better on run D last year, which may have decreased his sack numbers, but improved our D play. Attack, he does get ridden outside from time to time, but he was way better this year.

Also, I agree Peen that he should be moved around more. Every fan and football person knows that, Todd didnt, hopefully Mel does. I hope Tucker will move him around.

Dawg, Ive seen them run it, but Kam didnt get through so cleanly. I think if you re-watch that play because I remember it, you'll see Roye (or whoever the DE was on that side) blasted his man off the line, and the LG had to come help, and that freed up Kam so much that not only Kam couldve gone through, but Ted couldve gone through untouched...doing a crab walk...

I think we'll see Kam's numbers go up this year because now he's in his 3rd year, has improved in the run game, and with all the film study and work i know he puts in, he cant get worse.


about Dra...When the game is at full speed, he's decent. He does his job, but wont do it spectacularly. but as we noticed in the Buffalo game, and last years SD game, and a few others is that he's a mudder. He plays great in bad weather. When the game slows down, he's amazing. but at full speed he struggles.

I think part of that is coaching. I think if he can handle it a little bit slower and play great, he should be able to play better at full speed, with some coaching. Or, better than he has.

I look for Mel to do new things with him, and we'll see how the new DL impacts him. I dont think we can put enough stock into how a new, bigger, better DL will help our LBs.

But still needs to improve in that as well as not allowing himself to shoot into the gap and get pinned..

about Dra...When the game is at full speed, he's decent
U mean when the game is slowed down he's decent..remember the snow game with the Bills?
He was all over the place...no one else was getting to him because of the traction..what happened the previous game?And then the game after the Bills game?
Inconsistant..too inconsistant..

yea, thats why i said decent. he was fantastic in the Bills game

you should have actually read the line or two after the one your copied, he said the same thing.


A question/thought on Dra... Is it that he is just a mudder and excels in those games because things have "slowed down"... -or- is it because the opposing o-line in those types of games is finding it harder to get to the 2nd level and put a hat on our LBers, which means that he can now flow to the ball?

I don't really know the answer, just tossing out food for thought. If it is the latter and not the former, we should see a dramatic improvement in his play this year with a legitimate line in front of him.

Have we lost Thompson?

I know hes no starter and a little bust, but he has some value to talk about doesn't he?

I don't mind keeping Davis around, moving DQ, Leon, and Davis in the rotation how bad can we be, lets just keep those as our main ILBs until we sure up the rest of our defense. I don't think we can get much better to be honest in the situation we are in right now.

It was a huge hole, and I think it was actually McKinley of all people that blew the lineman off. It was amazing IIRC.

On a side note, has anyone seen Kam's off the field video on the home page where he sings? It's the funniest thing I've seen this week.

Quote:

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It's not an ability issue with Willie other than in speed needed for pass coverage or chasing plays from behind. His leadership and quality run defense ability is what makes him valuable to this team. There is no one on this team who can take his place in run support.

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Good vaild points....but the problem I have with Willie is when he gets to play he no longer has the ability to make it. Yeah he helped the run defense because he was replacing Peek who sold out every single play. It's a 500 pound person losing 50lbs, they may have gotten alittle weight off but their still fat as heck.

I still think that a Leon Williams, Chaun Thompson(who made plays last year) and David McMillian should get the oppurtunity to play more.

It still boils down to Willie missed ALOT of tackles, he also missed sacks in key situations. I'm not saying cut him, just get him off the field.

JMHO

One LB can't really make a difference. One really good player can help but you have to trap the QB not just catch him. If we have no middle rush the QB just steps up and Wimbley goes by same with Peak. What made our pash rush was some push from Warren even though he had no sacks. Also we had Brown and McKinley (DE) coming in from both sides the QB had no chance to step up.

Davis is not a real pass rusher but can play a reasonable rush defense and can cover the middle for passes. He was only a fifth round pick so I don't expect great things.

Jackson is supposed to be better and make more plays. He is more disappointing. Injuries have slowed him but he should be doing more this year. McMillian has not played much even though he was a fifth round pick. We don't have much money invested in our LBs so we should not expect great things. Next year we may get a first day LB. I hope the player turns out better than Thompson.

Is it that he is just a mudder and excels in those games because things have "slowed down"... -or- is it because the opposing o-line in those types of games is finding it harder to get to the 2nd level and put a hat on our LBers, which means that he can now flow to the ball?

It really can't be either totally because I've seen muddy games and he wasn't a force when the traction was bad...
I've seen enough games where he'd have a 15 tackle game..then disappear the next.
Davis while benefitting from have blockers free him up isn't consistant enough to do it several games in a row.
And it's due to instincts..I see him take himself out of too many plays...
I agree with BigC that he was 5th rounder so you shouldn't expect that much..but he's been the starter so I expect more than I would if he were a backup.

thats quite a conundrum.

Maybe its been coaching? because he was solid under Campo in Campo's system, but a dud per se in Grantham's system, maybe he's just a 4-3 guy?

but, I think we'll see different play this year under Mel. Maybe Mel will bring out the best in him...or Leon and Dra can lose his spot

My observations go back when we were in the 43...I noticed then that he would be sitting in the hole and then make the wrong read(where he thought the runner was going) move away from the play , then try to get back and couldn't..he 'd wind up trying to help out when in fact he should have been in position to make the play initially..

I dunno exactly who at this point and how but we ceratinly need LB help. IMO DQ is the only guy that plays with any consistentcy. He actually tackles well and stays in his gap. yeah he's small but is still our best LB.

Kam is hot and cold. He's not good against the run or pass. He was not a pleasant suprise in 2007. He needs to imrpove lots in 2008

Dra has been thrown under the bus enough in this thread however 99% is true. He's just not a very fundmentaly sound or insticntive LB.

Willie, Old, slow, and old and slow. No pass rush, misses alot of tackles. Does help get the defense set and is usually in good positioning. He reads plays well, he just no longer has the legs and body to make plays.

Certainly our DL didn't help our LB's, BUT in a vacuum our LB's have horrible fundamentals. Maybe Mel Tucker can help us learn to tackle and stay in our gaps better, and somebody teach Kam another pass rushing move

Post deleted by Referee2

U bet your ass he is...

And I don't wanna hear this BS he's 31 in June...

The more we get Davis off the field the better this D will become...

January 10, 2008
Former Broncos linebacker Al Wilson has been cleared to return to the football field. He did not play in 2007 after suffering a neck injury in December of 2006. "Al is training and is ready to play," agent Peter Schaffer tells the Denver Post . "There is no greater risk to his health than normal football risks. He is thrilled to get the chance to play again." Wilson, 30, is a free agent.

Former Bronco Wilson visits Browns
By Mike Klis
The Denver Post
Article Last Updated: 03/11/2008 11:53:09 PM MDT


Ex-Broncos linebacker Al Wilson (Post file)Continuing their quest to improve their defensive core, the Cleveland Browns visited Tuesday with former Broncos middle linebacker Al Wilson. Cleared to play last month, Wilson also has met with the Detroit Lions.

Wilson is a five-time Pro Bowler who had to sit out last season because of a neck injury. Cleared to play last month, Wilson has met with the Detroit Lions and now the improved Browns, who have already acquired two premier defensive tackles this offseason in Corey Williams and Shaun Rogers.

"Al would not come back just to collect a paycheck," said Peter Schaffer, Wilson's agent. "He would only come back if he found a situation that meets his criteria, which begins with helping a team win the Super Bowl. What's intriguing about the Cleveland Browns is all the moves they have made to a 10-6 team."


http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_8540271

While he is a upgrade , those neck injuries bother me..
While AD is a hard worker..his instincts and inability to be a consistant force is what is making this change neccessary..

I agree Attack I mean I know that some guys really do love the game and play to play but if his health is any type of a concern for him he should do whats best for himself and his family. Didn't Spielman have a neck injury that reared its ugly head once he became a Brown?

The Al Wilson talk surfaces again

This guy was a BEAST prior to his injury- i was surprised Denver cut their ties with him as fast as they did. Must have been a finacial decision.

If Wilson has been medically cleared too play- and he has; and if Wilson want to play then lets take a look at him. It is Wilson's decision if he wants to risk further injury to his neck. Evidently he wants to return to football.

I'm assuming he is close to what he used to be- and if that is true he would be an instant upgrade in the middle. The browns are attractive now, freeagents see this place a legit opportunity to win now. IF it comes down to Detroit vs the Browns and the dollars are close- most free agents with their career winding down are going to take the chance to win now- cleveland wins.

He would need to be signed to an incentive based contract, but i wouldn't hesitate to give him the chance to make probowl LB money.

I can't help having flash backs to Spielman - that expirement didn't last long................

i see you had the same flashbacks to Spielman....