DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Browns focused on winning, not building for future

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Oh boy!

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Ok, we'll try it this way. I was really hoping to avoid a long-winded post hoping my shorter ones would be understood. But it seems that in order for me to make myself clear, (even if I'm wrong), I have to write a book.

First I'll address some things I should have addressed earlier.

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Ddub.....that is the proof I present that savage tends to go BPA in a draft.

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You didn't give any proof. You gave only a philosophy on when and why teams draft for BPA and when and why they draft for need. Although your thoughts were sound, they were no "proof" that this is the way Savage has done it. In fact, that is not the way Savage has done it.

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Trust me, I understand what you are saying. We aren't going to draft a 4-3 tackle since we run a 3-4..... and I have never suggested we keep drafting O-linemen if every time we picked, a O-lineman was the highest rated player.

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No, by that comment you don't understand at all what I am saying. Again, although that comment makes sense, it is of an extreme if one is drafting BPA, (i.e. BPA regardless whether or not he fits your team). That would be foolish, certainly. But that is not at all what I am saying. Neither is it what I am saying that you are saying.

What I am saying is that Savage has been targeting needs and aggressively going after those needs in the first day of the draft. His first draft was the only one he chose BPA on day one and that may have only been Edwards.


Savage's First Draft '05

*Brayon Edwards - BPA on many team's boards. What to do with the #3 overall pick when you're new here and don't really know exactly what you need though it seems you need everything.

*Brodney Pool - The two biggest needs in RAC's 3-4 is a brutal NT and a smart and athetic FS. Was Pool the BPA in that slot or was Savage targeting for a need by taking a junior whom he felt was smart and atheletic? I'll give you BPA on Pool whether or not he was actually that on Phil's board. My take is that he took the BPA at this slot so long as it was a FS. Targeted need in my opinion, but your opinion, and many other's, may differ.

*Charlie Frye - Savage had Ellis Hobbs ahead of Frye on his board. He said so. But he took the young QB because he had no one to develop behind Dilfer. BPA? I think not, if it were he would have taken Hobbs who he had rated higher. But I'll give you that as well to finish day one of Savage's first draft.



Savage's Second Draft '06

*Kameron Wimbley - Coach wanted a pass rusher - Targeted need.

*D'Q Jackson - Traded up to pick DQ - Did Savage trade up in the 2nd round just so he could pick the BPA at the highest slot he could trade for? - Targeted need.

*Travis Wilson - BPA? - Savage said his reasoning for taking Wilson was that they had only Edwards and Northcutt as his #1 and #2, and no one behind them. He was unsure as to how long Northcutt would be here with his FA coming up the next season, they needed a player to take his place. Targeted need or BPA? When you consider how many draft intelligent fans hated taking a WR here I'd call it a targeted need. You may call it what you wish.

I'll add this as well...
*Leon Williams - Another linebacker. Savage was obviously targeting Linebackers. He took linebackers with his first 2 picks of that draft. Then went for another in the 4th round. Was Williams a BPA? Maybe. But after having already taken 2 LB's why take another with his first pick on the second day? They were a targeted need, that's why. He wasn't simply taking the BPA who would fit.



Savage's Third Draft '07

*Joe Thomas - Having already signed Steinbach it was obvious Savage chose this offseason to build the offensive line. We needed a franchise QB and we needed a franchise LT. Draft Rule 101: If you don't have a franchise QB then you take one if he comes available to you. Savage didn't do that. And it's obvious that it wasn't because he didn't think Quinn was a franchise QB, (more on that later). He targeted the offensive line and took Joe. The "safe pick"? Perhaps. If that alone made him the BPA then so be it.

*Brady Quinn - (See DQ above) Did Savage work his butt off to trade back into the 1st round just so he could pick the BPA at the highest slot he could get into? Here is where he applied Rule 101. He didn't have a franchise QB and he jumped through hoops, even to the extent of risking his next draft, to get the one he targeted. BPA? At 22 maybe. But he got to 22 specifically because he targeted BQ.

*Eric Wright - (See DQ and Quinn above) Did Savage once again, for the third time in two years, wheel and deal his way back into the second round just to pick the BPA at the hightest slot he could obtain? He targeted corner, Wright specifically, and again jumped though hoops to get the player he targeted.



Savage's Fourth Draft '08

This year's draft was missing the 1st rounder Savage used on Quinn the year before. In this year's draft he was targeting Defensive Line help. Are we doubting he was targeting the DL? Having found no defensive linemen worthy of his only day one picks he forgo that route and traded them for FA defensive linemen. That's one reason why they joke that Cory Williams was their 2nd rounder and Shawn Rogers their 3rd rounder.

For the rest of the 2008 draft they will draft BPA no doubt in my mind. Which is what I think has been typical for Savage's drafts. BPA so long as they have a fit for this team. Not necessarily a targeted need. Just a good fit, as in no 4-3 linemen like you mentioned.




Now it's highly possible that I'm completely out of mind and what I think I've been seeing is not what has been happening at all. But you take a look at the players we've drafted the past two drafts and the wheeling and dealing that's been done in order to get them and tell me that Savage merely took the BPA that was on his board in the slot he picked so long as they were a good fit for the team.

Personally, I don't know how anyone can see it that way.




You are not far off in your philosophy of how teams draft. Your philosophy is the way many have gone about rebuilding a roster from the ground up. But Savage has not exactly followed those age-old adages. Each draft he has taken the strength of that draft and drafted for the specific needs that the draft had good strength in. And as it seems to be playing out, for the most part, he hasn't reached for need picks, (i.e. taking players of a lessor talent just to fill a need).

'06 was linebackers, (one of his first day picks of which he wheeled and dealed for a specific player )

'07 was offensive line, QB and corner, (two of his first day picks of which he wheeled and dealed for two specific players )

In those two drafts, with 6 possible first day picks, he wheeled and dealed for 3 specific players who fit a specific targeted need. That's half of his picks that were targeted needs he aggressively went after. Not simply relying on the BPA. And the Wimbley pick was one in which Savage asked RAC if he wanted the DL or the pass rusher and RAC said the passrusher so Savage got him. That would make it 4 out of 6 possible picks that were targeted needs. Not simply BPA.

And now, when you look at this current draft, and the fact that Savage obviously, undoubtedly, clearly, distinctly, undeniably, and without question or doubt targeted the defensive line, which was not a strength of this draft by a long shot given our slots available to us, he used those draft picks to trade for defensive linemen. Which again, call me silly if you want to, equates to his using his draft picks to fill a targeted need. I know, they weren't drafted by the way.

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Well my friend....as I said earlier, if what you say is correct, we would have kept the picks and drafted 2nd tier D lineman.

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No, if what I say is correct he will target a specific need and do whatever he has to do to fill that need. Which he has done consistantly.

If what you say is correct then he would have kept those picks and drafted BPA which could have been a WR or a TE.

All in all, Savage's history of drafting for the Browns has not been the orthodox BPA philosophy by a far stretch.



So now maybe you understand why everytime you say this I say that.

BPA

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How this off-season will be remebered is how well Shaun Rodgers pans out. I think it can only go 2 ways...Pro Bowl or another Big Money.

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Although I agree that the success of Rogers is what will ulimately determine the real success of this offseason, there has never been, can never be, and won't ever happen that Rogers and Warren can be compared.

Rogers made probowls all the while he was getting the bad rap.

Rogers would have to become a crack addict and gain another 100 pounds to be reduced to the level of Gerard Warren.

I give you A for effort.


Ok....I will leave it like this...

Savage is a BPA guy.....but his BPA list might differ from the conventional lists as his takes into consideration the current status of the Browns roster and any limitations on said roster.

I'll take the A for effort.

Such a long post...I coulda said all that in a short sentence..
Savage takes the best player available for the Browns..

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If you don't have a franchise QB then you take one if he comes available to you. Savage didn't do that. And it's obvious that it wasn't because he didn't think Quinn was a franchise QB, (more on that later).

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I think your wrong there. Obviously Savage thought alot of Quinn as a "franchise QB" or he wouldn't have sacrificed this years draft over it. Why would you trade future #1 and #2 draft picks for somebody you don't feel can be a QB to lead your franchise?

Savage was just smarter than alot of media and fans in realizing that a "Franchise QB" is worthless if you have nobody protecting him. You gotta have the horse before the carriage!

If you reread my post you'll see that we both said the same thing.

Sorta-Kinda...I have different motives..promoting Brady as the franchise guy lol

ah!

Just to add to your comments and D in D's........................

I know "draft projections" aren't all that accurate, but if you look at Kipers projections, about HALF of the top 10 draft picks will be DE or DT.



Even a second round pik on the DL would be a very "picked over" group. I'm a "build through the draft" kind of guy myself.

But "this year" in "our circumstances" I don't see ANY way that Savage could have built a good DL other than via the FA market.

And as has been mentioned, these guys aren't part of "the over the hill gang". But prime time players. You can epect 4-7 good years from these players to come.

So even though I do believe in building through the draft, this year I can see the logic in "almost" every move made.

JMHO

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But "this year" in "our circumstances" I don't see ANY way that Savage could have built a good DL other than via the FA market.

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Pitt this is why Savage is making this team work. Obvious stuff is not the norm for many GMs. I have agreed with Savage on most of his decisions...not all but most. Has has proven to be right and has proven he knows talent and how to build a team.

Will he get the best undrafted players (Cribbs, Bodden) and be ahead again? He also has shown a desire to find players that want to be here and are local. Just a real common sense approach to making the team work.

I have seen quite a few of the posts in this thread and the part I see missing from all of this is the desperation PS felt in shoring up the D line.

Here is what he faced, every single potential FA stud D linemen that could have come out this season was tagged. He faced the possiblity of replace sub par players with more sub par players. Not very attractive IMO.

Given we traded away our 1st and where actually in the lower half of the 2nd, it was unlikely we would find a player to help.

So where does that leave you?

Your looking at what appears to be the toughest of schedules, you just got this team up off the mat, and put them in a position where they can compete, but only on one side of the ball. Forget it #30 last season against our schedule this season spells #32 and falling this upcoming season. Without real bonofied NFL quality players to fill out the D Line reach for the handle and flush, our season likely would end in a total collapse that would lead to more fire the coach fire the GM, fire the owner manure we have come to hate(I hope).

In a perfect world you draft and develop players from within, but when you have a glaring need, that if left unaddressed will bring your season crashing down, you reach for and grab at every possible avenue available. In this case you trade away your 2nd for a proven stud or near stud D linemen, then you go out and trade away your 3rd, and your starting CB, for a guy that is of questionable caracter. Not because you want to, but because you are clearly desperate. And not because you see a window opening, or because you have a win now attitude. That may very well be the by product of the moves you made, but the reason for the moves is clear to this poster, pure desperation, period.

I agree with those that have said or hold to the idea that what we have done is actually fill the spots left by past poor drafts, that to me at least is clear. From here if all goes well ( I think it will) we will be in a position to take the BPA in future drafts.

I agree with what Ddub has said what PS has done is draft the best player for the Browns. I however think he to this point has done it thru most of the draft round, case and point Pittman and Percell, both undersized for the 3-4 D line both taken in the 6th and 7th rounds. PS clearly made a reach hoping one of these guys would afford us at least depth, but a reach pick none the less. McDonald the same thing. I knew and said we would take at least 2 CB's last year, and we did.. It was best player for need accross the board last year clearly.

JMHO

Brown to the Bone

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but the reason for the moves is clear to this poster, pure desperation, period.

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NO WAY...Desperation is way too strong a description here...WAY TOO STRONG...

DL is a need...Top linemen all over the league are getting Tagged due to the increased cap...

What options are left???

Randy Starks
Brian Young
Marques Douglas
2nd & 3rd round picks

Explore Trade Scenarios...

There's NOTHING Desperate about it...We explored the trade thing and found 2 takers for TOP NOTCH talent...

U call it Desperate...I call it SMART...

I not only think it was smart I think it was brilliant born from desperation.

That is MHO sorry. I look at everything that was out there, the likelyhood we see real improvement to the team, and what was THE ONLY avenue left and I think it spells desperation, you don't. thats OK

Let me ask a question here though !! What do you think the outcome would be this upcoming season had these moves not been made?

And while you point out players that you think might have helped would you have wanted to bet the upcoming season on it?

Not me if I'm PS. If I'm PS I am desperate for REAL D Line help, that I know will get my team to a level where they have a chance to compete, and without these additions we are in a dark place IMHO. So I say desperation. IMHO it's hard to look at where we would be without these moves and have a realistic positive outlook, for the season to come..

Brown to the Bone

One of the things I thought about is the pressure to win..to take that next step.
Thats what this is about.

The Browns won last year..and in spite of a weak schedule , they came close to the playoffs..but it was frustrating..

Throw in two losses to the Squealers..that bites...
This year Phil knew the schedule is tougher and to stand pat and try to work in rookie linemen whats going top produce the same amount or wins or extra wins..
Then there's Pittsburgh..until they beat them they won't go anywhere.
Phil knows that..HE wants to beat them..these moves elevate(at least on paper) where we showed severe weakenesses against them.
Shore up that D and we can beat them.

Overtoad: It is a calculated gamble. But given all the factors involved and a consensus of opinion by Phil and his staff; the decisions in my opinion are sound.

The other point to bear in mind is the Draft. Which is not without risk. As we all know the performance of players, no matter their round of selection, does not allways equal the salaries paid.

In addition, the players we signed are not at the end of their careers. With this years draft and the others to follow we will be able to adjust. I am fully on board with the decision making process of Phil Savage. Look at what we have overcome with the injuries to Baxter and Bentley. Phil is steering this ship on course and with a little luck from major injuries our next stop may well be the promised land.

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Don't most 2nd or 3rd rd picks only sign a 4 yr contract

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Like I said, it's a haunting feeling......