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Quote:
The way Savage has been managing the cap, the Browns will remain in good cap position and will be able to afford whoever we want to sign.
Perhaps, but giving DA a 3-year contract was ludicrous, especially for the coin he'll be getting.
While I like the acquisitions of Shaun Rogers and Corey Williams, I think that they were overpaid.
Williams: 6-years, 38 million with 16.3 million in guaranteed salary.
Rogers: 6-years, 42 million with 20 million in guarantees.
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You're talking about Winslow here. He held out for his initial contract, remember? To even bring up "average" contracts into the discussion is foolish.
Tony Gonzalez signed a 5-year, 35 million contract with 17 million in guarantees a couple years ago. Winslow will want more than that. Winslow will want a 4 or 5 year contract approaching 35-40 million or more with better than 20 million in guarantees. That's if it was signed this year. If you wait until his contract is up, it will go up.
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All Pro
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Would you disagree with signing him to a 5 year, $40 million contract? I wouldn't. Also, most contracts look a lot worse than they really are. So much is incentive based, most of the time it's not paid out in full.
And at his position, we won't find another free agent to match his presence on the field.
Wise words spoken by sages
From SkyTel to BlackBerry pagers
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Well I'm sure everybody knows by now, but in case there's somebody who doesn't know....CT is now a Texan. Transactions » 3/14/2008 Signed free agent LB Chaun Thompson. » 3/13/2008 Signed free agent RB Chris Brown. » 3/10/2008 Re-signed free agent TE Mark Bruener and SS Glenn Earl. » 3/3/2008 Signed free agent LB Kevin Bentley. » 3/3/2008 Re-signed RB Darius Walker. » 3/1/2008 Signed unrestricted free agent CB Jacques Reeves. » 2/29/2008 Re-signed free agent WR André Davis. » 2/29/2008 Re-signed FB Jon Abbate. » 2/28/2008 Re-signed OL Scott Jackson. » 2/27/2008 Waived FB Jon Abbate. » 2/27/2008 Re-signed RB Chris Taylor. » 2/26/2008 Re-signed WR Harry Williams. » 2/20/2008 Released LB Shawn Barber, C Mike Flanagan and TE Jeb Putzier. Waived C Drew Hodgdon. » 1/28/2008 Hired Ray Rhodes as the assistant defensive backs coach. » 1/15/2008 Signed C Chukky Okobi and G Dan Stevenson to reserve/future contracts. » 1/11/2008 Named Alex Gibbs as assistant head coach/offense and promoted Kyle Shanahan to offensive coordinator/quarterbacks coach. » 1/10/2008 Signed WR LeRon McCoy to a reserve/future contract. » 1/2/2008 Signed the following players to reserve/future contracts: RB Arliss Beach, LB Kevis Coley, C Greg Eslinger, CB Derrick Johnson, DE Eric Powell, CB Derrick Roberson, S Brandon Mitchell. http://www.houstontexans.com/team/Transactions.asp
Last edited by Rabidfan; 03/15/08 05:48 PM.
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What I'm getting at is that at 40 million, I don't see us shelling out that kind of cash for him. He will be wearing another team's uniform.
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Goin back to Texas. Good luck Mr. Potential.
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You've said it before Toadie, "Follow the money."
It won't come down to whether he wants to stay here or whether we want him to stay. It is about money.
We had a two-year contract, reportedly about the same as what was given by the Texans. You would think that if Chaun was comfy here, he could have been persuaded to stay. He didn't stay because he knew his abilities weren't going to be used and he would be severely limited in his future earnings by staying. I would have left for Texas too!
I agree wholeheartedly with that singular point. However, that perticular point doesn't apply to Jones, as Jones has been a starting safety, and will continue to be.Quote:
Once Jones' and Winslow's contracts are up, expect for them to be gone as well.
You're assuming that we aren't going to negotiate a new contract for either. I see nothing that leads me to believe we're going to allow either player to reach the end of their contracts.
So far, when we've had a player that is worth locking up, we've extended that players contract. Winslow and Jones are players worth extending. I've also yet to see anything from either player saying they are unhappy in Cleveland. With the room we have under the cap, reaching a new deal with either player isn't an issue, unless they are asking for unGodly money. So again, based on Savage's track record of keeping young players who are worth keeping, I think both are far more likely to be offered new deals before they are allowed to walk. Besides, in a worst-case scenario, the Franchise Tag price at either position aren't cap-breakers.
The situation of Thompson, who was going to be a backup here but gets a chance to fight for a starting gig in Texas, is completely different than the situations of Winslow and Jones.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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I agree wholeheartedly with that singular point. However, that perticular point doesn't apply to Jones, as Jones has been a starting safety, and will continue to be.
Why doesn't it apply to Jones? Chaun was a starting LB in 2004 and 2005.
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You're assuming that we aren't going to negotiate a new contract for either. I see nothing that leads me to believe we're going to allow either player to reach the end of their contracts.
Perhaps you are right in your thinking. However, Winslow has already begun to make noise about his situation and wants what he deems is his due. He renegotiated his contract after his injury and feels that Cleveland must do it's part now that he has proved his worth as a receiving TE for two straight seasons now. He wants the commitment from Cleveland that he believes he deserves. If we go into next season without a contract renegotiation in hand, expect it to turn ugly, expensive, or both.
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So far, when we've had a player that is worth locking up, we've extended that players contract.
Who are you referring to?
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Winslow and Jones are players worth extending. I've also yet to see anything from either player saying they are unhappy in Cleveland.
Nothing that says anyone is unhappy in Cleveland, but with negotiations we know how that can change very quickly.
See the article from Mary Kay from the Plain Dealer in regards to Winslow (with quotes from him).
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With the room we have under the cap, reaching a new deal with either player isn't an issue, unless they are asking for unGodly money.
Yeah, I feel Winslow will be asking for exactly that kind of cash.
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So again, based on Savage's track record of keeping young players who are worth keeping, I think both are far more likely to be offered new deals before they are allowed to walk.
No doubt that offers will be made. However, it takes both sides to execute a contract.
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Besides, in a worst-case scenario, the Franchise Tag price at either position aren't cap-breakers.
Yeah, a franchise tag on Winslow only means that you have him another year and he will not be happy about being tagged and I suspect that he would absolutely make that known.
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The situation of Thompson, who was going to be a backup here but gets a chance to fight for a starting gig in Texas, is completely different than the situations of Winslow and Jones.
Indeed. My contention is that Thompson should have been given the opportunity in Cleveland that he'll get in Houston. He is, in my estimation, better than those that started for this team last year (including Davis, Peek, Williams and Jackson). I won't argue about Wimbley. He actually is a very good player.
As for Davis, how exactly does he fit in the 4-3 scheme that so many seem to be saying that we run? He was our MLB when we used the 3-4. Of course, Opie made the correct assertion when he said that most teams use a mix of the 3-4 and 4-3 defenses. So, I just don't see how anyone can claim that a 4-3 LB doesn't fit into our 3-4 defense. Almost every defense in the NFL is a mix of the two in some form.
Last edited by anarchy2day; 03/16/08 01:23 PM.
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Why doesn't it apply to Jones? Chaun was a starting LB in 2004 and 2005.
But not in '06 and '07, and wouldn't be in '08 or '09.
Meanwhile, Jones has been for the past couple of years, and would presumably continue to be into the future.
Apples and oranges.
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He wants the commitment from Cleveland that he believes he deserves. If we go into next season without a contract renegotiation in hand, expect it to turn ugly, expensive, or both.
Agreed. Thank God for the Franchise Tag  (though that could mean he'd holdout) I don't think you'd returned when I made a long post about Winslow. When looking at other TE contracts around the league, it wouldn't be a big stretch at all to create an extension that gives him a raise, while at the same time doesn't hurt the cap at all. I think it's doable.
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So far, when we've had a player that is worth locking up, we've extended that players contract.
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Who are you referring to?
Anderson, Lewis, Cribbs, Bodden (before we traded him  but the point is we extended him) Davis (I think we agree he's not that good, but he was the best of a bad bunch when we extended him) Heiden, we extended Roye a couple of years ago when he was still playing well. We extended Tucker's contract a few years ago. Those are the ones from Savage's regime, showing a willingness to extend good players. I think the only example of a player that didn't get extended because he wanted out was Anthony Henry.
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My contention is that Thompson should have been given the opportunity in Cleveland that he'll get in Houston. He is, in my estimation, better than those that started for this team last year
Ah. The crux of your side of the discussion. I don't share your opinion on Thompson, but can see where you're coming from.
I personally have always felt that Thompson wasn't suited to the 3-4. I actually was in favor of keeping him and letting him have a chance to grow into the OLB position when we were running the 4-3. Yet when we switched, he just didn't fit into either LB spot. Now, going to Houston, he'll get the chance to compete for that long-awaited OLB position, where he can use his speed in open space. He's always had issues in traffic, especially when working against interior blockers. If he's going to become a starter, I've always thought the 4-3 was his best shot.
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As for Davis, how exactly does he fit in the 4-3 scheme that so many seem to be saying that we run? He was our MLB when we used the 3-4. Of course, Opie made the correct assertion when he said that most teams use a mix of the 3-4 and 4-3 defenses. So, I just don't see how anyone can claim that a 4-3 LB doesn't fit into our 3-4 defense. Almost every defense in the NFL is a mix of the two in some form.
Davis? The 4-3 that we run? "When" we used the 3-4?
I think I'm missing something here.
Now the one point I do get is that you think any LB can go from the 4-3 to the 3-4. Again, I don't agree. Jonathan Vilma was a pro-bowler in the 4-3, but when the Jets switched to the 3-4, he struggled, badly. So badly, in fact, that he's been traded. Players who don't shed blocks well, such as Davis and Thompson, need to play in schemes where they are free to run and make tackles. As an outside OLB, you should have natural pass rush ability. Thompson doesn't have those, only natural speed.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Meanwhile, Jones has been for the past couple of years, and would presumably continue to be into the future.
Apples and oranges.
Perhaps we can see how that plays out in the next year or so.
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Agreed. Thank God for the Franchise Tag (though that could mean he'd holdout) I don't think you'd returned when I made a long post about Winslow. When looking at other TE contracts around the league, it wouldn't be a big stretch at all to create an extension that gives him a raise, while at the same time doesn't hurt the cap at all. I think it's doable.
Maybe you are right, but again, we'll have to see how it plays out. I'm glad that you're more optimistic about it than I am.
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Anderson
I wouldn't have extended his contract at all.
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Lewis
I'll give you partial credit on this one only because Lewis is a known quantity. I might argue that behind our OL, any RB could be plugged in an be a performer.
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Cribbs
This is one where I would agree with you. He earned every bit of his extension too.
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Bodden (before we traded him but the point is we extended him)
While Bodden was an alright CB, I don't really feel that extending his contract was necessary.
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Davis (I think we agree he's not that good, but he was the best of a bad bunch when we extended him)
I wouldn't have extended his either.
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Heiden
Extending his contract was not critical. I like him, but was his contract really worth extending?
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Roye
This isn't exactly strengthening your case. 
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Tucker
Not critical either.
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Those are the ones from Savage's regime, showing a willingness to extend good players.
I wouldn't exactly call the majority of them "good players". Of them all, I would give "good" to only about half (Lewis, Cribbs, Heiden and Tucker). The rest I wouldn't exactly characterize as "good".
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Anthony Henry
And he still is a very good player.
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Ah. The crux of your side of the discussion. I don't share your opinion on Thompson, but can see where you're coming from.
I know that you don't share my opinion about Thompson. I think you might change your mind after this upcoming season.
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Davis? The 4-3 that we run? "When" we used the 3-4?
Did I mistype or get confused? 
I think I'm missing something here.
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As an outside OLB, you should have natural pass rush ability. Thompson doesn't have those, only natural speed.
I completely disagree. Chaun has natural pass rushing ability. He also plays the run very well. That's why he excelled so much on a bad team in college and at a lower level of play. He stuck out like a sore thumb. He would have done extremely well at a major university also but chose WT.
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Not to defend Toad, but you previously suggested that the Browns didn't have a shot at keeping certain players and he correctly pointed out that we have re-signed guys. I think you are confused, or awfully manipulative.
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us."
--Ralph Waldo Emerson
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Well, BBanger, sometimes lately getting some people like Ralph off the field is an upgrade. CT is OK by me, but he is about a 40% bust in that he plays hesitant. On specials when he can just run it down, he is OK
Has never been what I had hoped he might be. We read he plays em all at LB, but is only so-so no matter where you put him. I am still waiting for the lightbulb that turns him into something special; just not instinctive enough for every down yet. Keep him for fair money.
"Every responsibility implies opportunity, and every opportunity implies responsibility." Otis Allen Glazebrook, 1880
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Well, BBanger, sometimes lately getting some people like Ralph off the field is an upgrade. CT is OK by me, but he is about a 40% bust in that he plays hesitant. On specials when he can just run it down, he is OK
Has never been what I had hoped he might be. We read he plays em all at LB, but is only so-so no matter where you put him. I am still waiting for the lightbulb that turns him into something special; just not instinctive enough for every down yet. Keep him for fair money.
He plays for Houston now......never mind. 
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Not to defend Toad, but you previously suggested that the Browns didn't have a shot at keeping certain players and he correctly pointed out that we have re-signed guys. I think you are confused, or awfully manipulative.
Not trying to nitpick, but Toadie's words were:
So far, when we've had a player that is worth locking up, we've extended that players contract.
To which I inquired to whom he was referring. He listed some names and I only stated my opinion that certain names on that list weren't worth locking up with extended contracts.
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Quote:
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Not to defend Toad, but you previously suggested that the Browns didn't have a shot at keeping certain players and he correctly pointed out that we have re-signed guys. I think you are confused, or awfully manipulative.
Not trying to nitpick, but Toadie's words were:
So far, when we've had a player that is worth locking up, we've extended that players contract.
To which I inquired to whom he was referring. He listed some names and I only stated my opinion that certain names on that list weren't worth locking up with extended contracts.
I see your angle and it makes sense...however...I think Toad was right on the money. Those guys were worth extending at the point in time that they were extended. Sure...some may have faded later on...but when they were extended, it was a good move.
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I see your angle and it makes sense...however...I think Toad was right on the money. Those guys were worth extending at the point in time that they were extended. Sure...some may have faded later on...but when they were extended, it was a good move.
I can understand that argument for some of them but not all of them.
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