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I have seen the term "liberal" thrown around on here a ton, and it IS meant as a derogatory term.
I've thrown it around, primarily because it brings to mind a type of person.. much like neocon does.. and it's quicker than writing a paragraph to describe what kind of person I'm talking about.
If somebody fits the modern description of "liberal" and finds it derogatory.. then thats on them, not on me.
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Liberal thinking was in the front of the minds of our forefathers when they wrote the Declaration of Independence. They wrote something about having the right to life, liberty, and being able to pursue happiness. A liberal mind is one that respects individual liberty and opposes restrictions on one's freedom.
The primary difference between our liberal forefathers and those defined as liberals today... is responsibility. When they gave us all of those freedoms, they assumed that people would value them and cherish them and respect them and treat them with responsibility. When they gave us free speech, I seriously doubt that they intended it to be used to defend internet porn... I mean seriously.
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...being a liberal is far more patriotic and in tune w/our forefathers than the greedy rich who have overtaken this great country would want us to believe.
If you are liberal in the sense that they were liberal, then I will agree with you. If you are liberal in the sense that you think the government should control our retirement, our healthcare, regulate our industry, our family, our system of education... then I wholeheartedly disagree. That is NOTHING like them.
Right.. we shouldn't listen to the greedy rich who have taken over our country... we should listen to the slave owners and major property owners who denied women and non-land owners the right to vote... they were all about the little guy. 
yebat' Putin
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Well, if you consider giving another opinion ganging up on people, then yes.
Some of you think having to answer questions about what you post or someone else posting an opposing view is ganging up.
I don't understand that, but, oh well.
Ganging up is one person debating 4 to 5 different people at the same time...and all 4 to 5 people are saying the same thing.
I'm not gonna get further involved in this...I've had my quota of confrontations on this board for the month...get back at me next week!
"My country is the world, and my religion is to do good" Thomas Paine
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1st String
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Liberal! Liberal!...I tend to be liberal on social issues...and a realist in Foriegn policy.
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The more things get talked about.......the more murky the original statement becomes.
DC..........in my first post on the subject, I clearly stated that today's use of the word "liberal" is a far cry of the true definition of "liberal."
I'll stand behind that comment.
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us."
--Ralph Waldo Emerson
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I call people liberals because that is what they are. If they are offended by it then they are offended by thier political values.
First of all, I don't consider myself a liberal. Then again, I wouldn't say I am a conservative either. I believe in doing what is right. I try to base things on what is moral and I try to search for the truth. And despite what you say.........I have seen the term "liberal" thrown around on here a ton, and it IS meant as a derogatory term. Your cute use of language doesn't change that.
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If you feel that I or anyone else missunderstands liberalism then please explaine what we are missunderstaning. Instead of stating your going to puke and threaten someone with violence (whether joking or not).
Here is what I deem the word liberal to mean.
It's based on the word liberty. And liberty, by definition, means having the ability to act according to one's own free will.
Liberal thinking was in the front of the minds of our forefathers when they wrote the Declaration of Independence. They wrote something about having the right to life, liberty, and being able to pursue happiness. A liberal mind is one that respects individual liberty and opposes restrictions on one's freedom.
All I know.....the word is not currently being used the way it was intended. Instead, people use it as an insult, a character attack, a derogatory term. In truth.....being a liberal is far more patriotic and in tune w/our forefathers than the greedy rich who have overtaken this great country would want us to believe.
And whether you think I am childish or not..........come here and try and take my liberty away. You'll find out whether I am joking or not. 
I've never agreed with you more on a topic!
It kills me how both parties take their eyes off the ball it seems.
You can't overregulate big business, but at the same time you can't let them roam free to do what they want or else they'll be more corrupt than you can imagine (think Enron on an even bigger scale).
The same deal counts on the environment...do you think corporations will voluntarily make environmental improvements if it negatively affects their bottom line? I sure as hell don't, cuz "they have a responsibility to their shareholders" (a term I personally HATE).
CEO's get richer and richer while "expendable jobs" are cut. That's crap IMO.
Ok I'm getting too far off topic...
Conservatives want to de-regulate business but want to regulate what women can and can't do with their bodies?
I too don't consider myself liberal or conservative...I side more on the liberal moral issues but I don't believe in wasteful spending (then again...right now we have the most wasteful government under a conservative).
I too think the word liberal is used as an insult...I know the Bush ads back in '04 basically made the word liberal like a negative slang term.
I'll get on this topic again later. I know I clouded up the original intention of your post but I got into venting mode.
Last edited by Ammo; 03/27/08 11:45 AM.
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No, I want you to go away because I provided two legitimate answers to your questions and you replied w/a multitude of personal insults. The grammatical correction was a response to your high-handed, arrogant attitude. *L*
Bye. 
"Multitude of personal insults".......are you kidding me, you were the one threatening Ralphie with physical harm and when I responded that those type of comments are childish you replied back that if I tried to take away your liberty you would harm me.
You started the whole thing with personal threats and I called you out on them so now your mad. And my post had a lot more than a "multitude of personal insults", you must have ignored the entire last paragraph.
And standing up to someone who is making idle threats across the Internet is not a high-handed, arrogant attitude.
Later!
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The herding takes place on both sides. I see it everyday in various social circles. The word 'liberal' or 'conservative' being a punchline, an insult or an all-encompassing description depending on the ideology of the social circle. We're roped into these petty labels and arguments while Washington pulls further and further away from our grasp.
DC, you offer up a description of a 'liberal' as one who "thinks the government should control our retirement, our healthcare, regulate our industry, our family, our system of education..."
I don't think the government should control any of those things. I think the people should. Unfortunately while we were squabbling over being liberal or conservative, the government yanked the people out of the equation.
People sit around arguing about spending money on Social Security or health care - whether or not we can afford it. Of course we can afford it! Look at all of the billions and billions and billions wasted - SQUANDERED - on wars, perks of elected officials, $8,000 hammers...instead of arguing about the waste of Washington spending, we accept it as a truth and expect to go from there. The argument becomes either being for health care or "I don't trust the government to run health care"...well, what if you could have a goverment that you trusted to run health care? The government is supposed to work for the people, not for themselves and their financial contributors. But nobody cares about that, because they have pettier arguments to deal with, the ones conveniently assembled and presented by CNN, Fox, etc.
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I hate labels too. They are counterproductive and do nothing to solve the problems we are facing.
Btw.............I know you get a lot of grief on here, but posts like your last one tells me that you are a pretty bright guy. Don't let them get you down, man.
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us."
--Ralph Waldo Emerson
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The problem Phil, is most people want to be lead around on a leash.
At least until they have no rights at all....on a persons basics rights, even if you disagree, don't relinquish one of them.
It is like the old story of the butcher.
If the helper decided to take a whole salami, the butcher would notice that.
If he took it 4-5 slices at a time, the butcher wouldn't know it was gone it was gone until it was to late.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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I hate labels too. They are counterproductive and do nothing to solve the problems we are facing.
Btw.............I know you get a lot of grief on here, but posts like your last one tells me that you are a pretty bright guy. Don't let them get you down, man.
Phil is probably the most intelligent person on here, imho.
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I hate labels too. They are counterproductive and do nothing to solve the problems we are facing.
Btw.............I know you get a lot of grief on here, but posts like your last one tells me that you are a pretty bright guy. Don't let them get you down, man.
Phil is probably the most intelligent person on here, imho.
Other than me. 
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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I hate labels too. They are counterproductive and do nothing to solve the problems we are facing.
Btw.............I know you get a lot of grief on here, but posts like your last one tells me that you are a pretty bright guy. Don't let them get you down, man.
Phil is probably the most intelligent person on here, imho.
Other than me.
Riiiiiggghhhhht. 
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One soldier dying because his Commander in Chief lied about the need to go to war, is too many.
So let me get this straight---you think that Bush basically knew that their were no WMD's but insisted there were anyway. You're saying he just openly lied in order to provoke a war and kill a bunch of people---and he got re-elected while doing this. Not only are you calling into question Bush but also you are questioning the intelligence of every person who cast a ballot with his name on it. That is pretty ridiculous.
I think Bush may have been wrong about the WMD's, but I don't think he blatantly lied so that he could sacrifice the lives of countless people.
Tyl...YES...that is what I believe.
Bush knew, Bush and all the neocons he put in power lied and now 4004 American soldiers have bravely made the ultimate sacrifice for their country.
Did most of those 4004 soldiers know Bush lied or question the honesty of their civilian leaders?...probably, but a soldier does his job...a soldier follows orders...and America is blessed with the best soldiers in the world.
If only our soldiers had a leader (CIC) worthy of their sacrifices.
Tyler, here is a bit of homework for you and the rest who care to expend the energy to just read and think...
web page
Now the article is a bit on the long side so I'm just going to post the first page or 3 pages of this very educational piece. Please click on pages 2 and 3 from the link above and do take the time to digest what your about to learn...thank you..mac
Soldier for the Truth
Exposing Bush’s talking-points war
By Marc Cooper
Thursday, February 19, 2004 - 12:00 am
After two decades in the U.S. Air Force, Lieutenant Colonel Karen Kwiatkowski, now 43, knew her career as a regional analyst was coming to an end when — in the months leading up to the war in Iraq — she felt she was being “propagandized” by her own bosses.
With master’s degrees from Harvard in government and zoology and two books on Saharan Africa to her credit, she found herself transferred in the spring of 2002 to a post as a political/military desk officer at the Defense Department’s office for Near East South Asia (NESA), a policy arm of the Pentagon.
Kwiatkowski got there just as war fever was spreading, or being spread as she would later argue, through the halls of Washington. Indeed, shortly after her arrival, a piece of NESA was broken off, expanded and re-dubbed with the Orwellian name of the Office of Special Plans. The OSP’s task was, ostensibly, to help the Pentagon develop policy around the Iraq crisis.
She would soon conclude that the OSP — a pet project of Vice President Dick Cheney and Defense Secretary Don Rumsfeld — was more akin to a nerve center for what she now calls a “neoconservative coup, a hijacking of the Pentagon.”
Though a lifelong conservative, Kwiatkowski found herself appalled as the radical wing of the Bush administration, including her superiors in the Pentagon planning department, bulldozed internal dissent, overlooked its own intelligence and relentlessly pushed for confrontation with Iraq.
Deeply frustrated and alarmed, Kwiatkowski, still on active duty, took the unusual step of penning an anonymous column of internal Pentagon dissent that was posted on the Internet by former Colonel David Hackworth, America’s most decorated veteran.
As war inevitably approached, and as she neared her 20-year mark in the Air Force, Kwiatkowski concluded the only way she could viably resist what she now terms the “expansionist, imperialist” policies of the neoconservatives who dominated Iraq policy was by retiring and taking up a public fight against them.
She left the military last March, the same week that troops invaded Iraq. Kwiatkowski started putting her real name on her Web reports and began accepting speaking invitations. “I’m now a soldier for the truth,” she said in a speech last week at Cal Poly Pomona. Afterward, I spoke with her.
L.A. WEEKLY: What was the relationship between NESA and the now-notorious Office of Special Plans, the group set up by Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld and Vice President Cheney? Was the OSP, in reality, an intelligence operation to act as counter to the CIA?
KAREN KWIATKOWSKI: The NESA office includes the Iraq desk, as well as the desks of the rest of the region. It is under Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense Bill Luti. When I joined them, in May 2002, the Iraq desk was there. We shared the same space, and we were all part of the same general group. At that time it was expanding. Contractors and employees were coming though it wasn’t clear what they were doing.
In August of 2002, the expanded Iraq desk found new spaces and moved into them. It was told to us that this was now to be known as the Office of Special Plans. The Office of Special Plans would take issue with those who say they were doing intelligence. They would say they were developing policy for the Office of the Secretary of Defense for the invasion of Iraq.
But developing policy is not the same as developing propaganda and pushing a particular agenda. And actually, that’s more what they really did. They pushed an agenda on Iraq, and they developed pretty sophisticated propaganda lines which were fed throughout government, to the Congress, and even internally to the Pentagon — to try and make this case of immediacy. This case of severe threat to the United States.
You retired when the war broke out and have been speaking out publicly. But you were already publishing critical reports anonymously while still in uniform and while still on active service. Why did you take that rather unusual step?
Due to my frustration over what I was seeing around me as soon as I joined Bill Luti’s organization, what I was seeing in terms of neoconservative agendas and the way they were being pursued to formulate a foreign policy and a military policy — an invasion of a sovereign country, an occupation, a poorly planned occupation. I was concerned about it; I was in opposition to that, and I was not alone.
So I started writing what I considered to be funny, short essays for my own sanity. Eventually, I e-mailed them to former Colonel David Hackworth, who runs the Web page Soldiers for the Truth, and he published them under the title “Insider Notes From the Pentagon.” I wrote 28 of those columns from August 2002 until I retired.
There you were, a career military officer, a Pentagon analyst, a conservative who had given two decades to this work. What provoked you to become first a covert and later a public dissident?
Like most people, I’ve always thought there should be honesty in government. Working 20 years in the military, I’m sure I saw some things that were less than honest or accountable. But nothing to the degree that I saw when I joined Near East South Asia.
This was creatively produced propaganda spread not only through the Pentagon, but across a network of policymakers — the State Department, with John Bolton; the Vice President’s Office, the very close relationship the OSP had with that office. That is not normal, that is a bypassing of normal processes. Then there was the National Security Council, with certain people who had neoconservative views; Scooter Libby, the vice president’s chief of staff;
Page 1 of 3
click the link above to read pages 2 and 3.
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RALPHIE...now you have no reason for being "uneducated" about the "NEOCONS"....mac
Exactly. Now Ralphie knows exactly how one extreme liberal from the Christian Science Monitor defines neocon... 
DC...I started at the 101 level for Ralphie and the rest of his buddies.
Now, if you and Ralphie know how to operate the search feature on your computers, there is a ton of information on Bush's NEOCONS...simply type in the word..."neocons" ....or type in a question, such as..."Who are the neocons?"...
If you care about our soldiers, you have a duty to educate yourselves....
If you don't give a damn about our soldiers or military, continue to choke down and repeat what you have been fed...there is nothing like having someone else tell you what to think and say, especially those with an agenda, such as war.
...the choice is yours...mac
Last edited by mac; 03/28/08 10:04 AM.
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I hate labels too. They are counterproductive and do nothing to solve the problems we are facing.
Btw.............I know you get a lot of grief on here, but posts like your last one tells me that you are a pretty bright guy. Don't let them get you down, man.
Phil is probably the most intelligent person on here, imho.
I don't agree with Phil on a number of issues, like some other's do not, but I have rarely seen anybody treat him in a disrespectul manner.....well, at least since Coach B quit posting so much.
Phil has mellowed in some of his viewpoints over the years, he used to scare me. 
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Mac, I see you still continue to disprespect the sacrifice these soldiers made. It really angers me that you throw out revisionist history and use the sacrifice that two of my family members made. You sit there and rewrite what actually happen, make groundless accusations, and spit on the things that my family members believed in and died for. You dishonor them, their memory, and their sacrifice. I'd prefer you just say thank you and move on. Making outlandish and false accusations is something those that actually HAVE sacrificed can do without. You don't speak for those that have lost loved ones in this battle. Stop pretending you do.
coachb...I did not realize you have lost a son and/or a daughter in the Iraq war...my condolences to you and your wife for your loss.
You do not agree with my opinion, which is fine, but your support for our soldiers does not exceed mine, friend. I'm not going to get into a "mine is bigger than yours" contest of who is more patriotic or who supports our soldiers more...but I will say, you are flat out wrong to make such suggestions.
How much reading have you done, coachb?
...OR...is your mind closed to learning anything new concerning the "facts" as to how we got where we are today, in Iraq?
Please, open your mind and allow your brain to think...this is a good place to start as the source of this information is a retired USAF LtCol.
web page
I strongly suggest you read the articles I have highlighted above...mac
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Post deleted by Referee 3
yebat' Putin
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jc..
At this point I don't care why or how we got in Iraq and in this war, I want to know how we can come to a resolution or compromise and begin bringing our people home.
While at the same time leaving behind a country that can protect and govern themselves in an acceptable fashion. They don't need to be a little America, I don't care if they are a monarchy. As long as the people are not being beaten, starved, stoned, etc, then I'm fine with them living any way they choose.
Simple fact. A group people didn't like the way things were so they did something about it. In this case the people moved to new land. It wasn't long before their previous government followed and tried to once again control their lives. The people stood up and revolted, they forced out the old government and created a new one. Welcome to America folks.
We cannot force democracy on anyone who does not want it, or at least want to fight for it. We can help them if they want to make a change, but we can't make the change for them.
So let's figure out what we can do to help them get their home back under control, and then leave it to them to do as they please with it. We have enough of our own problems on American soil to be wasting billions pushing a product the consumer doesn't seem to really want.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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mac, putting labels on people such as neocons is insulting.
Asking people if they want to educate themselves or if their minds are closed to learning is also insulting.
I don't agree w/what CoachB said to you earlier, but I strongly suspect that your sympathies for his loss are not sincere.
mac, I don't doubt your patriotism or the strength of your convictions. Fight the good fight. But perhaps you should respect the views of the opposing side.
This country has some big problems. Fighting along party lines and putting derogatory labels on one another isn't going to solve anything.
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us."
--Ralph Waldo Emerson
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...OR...is your mind closed to learning anything new concerning the "facts" as to how we got where we are today, in Iraq?
Why is our mind always closed because you post a link full of someone else's opinions and we still don't agree with it?
I posted this link last time you went on your "neocon" trip, and never heard back about it. Do a google search for Communist Goals and have some more fun reading. After all, if it's on the internet, it must be true ... and if you don't agree with it, then you must be close minded.
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We cannot force democracy on anyone who does not want it, or at least want to fight for it. We can help them if they want to make a change, but we can't make the change for them.
Flor...on Easter Sunday, my 82 yr old, father-in-law, who is a life long conservative, spoke to everyone at the table about the situation in Iraq.
...My father-in-law asked the question...Why do those in our government, feel like they should rule another country and impose our way of governing and our way life on another country?
He believes we should mind our own business and concentrate on making our country a better place for our people to live in.
At 82 yrs of age, his wisdom should not be ignored....
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mac, putting labels on people such as neocons is insulting.
Asking people if they want to educate themselves or if their minds are closed to learning is also insulting.
I don't agree w/what CoachB said to you earlier, but I strongly suspect that your sympathies for his loss are not sincere.
mac, I don't doubt your patriotism or the strength of your convictions. Fight the good fight. But perhaps you should respect the views of the opposing side.
This country has some big problems. Fighting along party lines and putting derogatory labels on one another isn't going to solve anything.
Vers...#1...neocons are real. They wear the label proudly and do not complain when someone uses the Neocon name to describe them.
Neocons are not new to politics, originally being democrats decades ago.
What is unique in this administration...it's first time Neocons have managed to gain power within our government. What we Americans are experiencing is the agenda of the Neocons.
Neocons wanted a war in Iraq long before Bush took office. G. "W" gave them their chance to pursue their Neocon agenda.
Vers...now, read on your own. It obvious to me, you don't know much about Neocons...just read.
One more thing concerning the use of the word, "Neocon/s"...if the Neocons themselves have no problem with the term, why are others upset at my use of the term.
I think nothing of using the term, probably because I have researched them for "years". Most of you havn't even bothered to spend 10 minutes on researching the Neocons.
#2...Educating yourself...Vers...I mean it...I want you and everyone to have the curiosity to learn for yourselves.
I could set here and respond to everyone's questions about who, what, when and where...spoon feeding everyone....but that would be lazy of those with the questions.
Too many times, people refuse to take the time to do their own research. Many rely on someone else to tell them what they should "think".
When I ask you or anyone to "educate yourselves", I'm challenging you to read for yourself...don't take my word for anything, read it for yourself and form your opinion rather than relying on some talking head to tell you what to think.
#3...vers...my sympathies...your way out of line to assume anything other than what I wrote.
If you have a problem proclaiming your sympathies to coachb for his losses, that's on you...don't ever question my sincerity for a family that has lost a soldier.
#4...vers...fighting along party lines...hmm, one of the reasons I used the link to the article above, the author was a military officer who was GOP..she was not a Dem.
Anyone trying to discount her opinions as that of another liberal, would be flat out wrong.
#5...yes, this country has some huge problems. We can't begin to solve those problems by pretending they don't exist.
I challenge everyone to research and read about how we got where we are.
For me, the Iraq War is the #1 issue and I will not stop until the truth is known to everyone I can tell.
How we got into this war does effect how we get out of this war.
Sorry if I hurt anyone's feelings, but soldiers continue to die in the Iraq War...that strikes a nerve deep in my soul...mac
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11.
That's the count on your use of "neocon/s" in the last post.
Now that that's out of the way:
What if some of us HAVE educated ourselves, but still disagree with you? Are we still wrong in your opinion?
Perhaps some people feel your views are wrong or biased. Perhaps some of those people ARE educated - not only academically, but politically. Is that a possibility? Or must we adhere to your views in order to be considered "educated and enlightened"?
I ask, because most of your posts come across that way, and in a rather condescending way as well.
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Or must we adhere to your views in order to be considered "educated and enlightened"?
You don't have to adhere to his views to be educated, but you do to be enlightened.
Give em hell Mac!
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 13,842
Legend
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OP
Legend
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 13,842 |
Quote:
Quote:
Or must we adhere to your views in order to be considered "educated and enlightened"?
You don't have to adhere to his views to be educated, but you do to be enlightened.
Give em hell Mac!
Joben...I'm not looking to give anyone hell.
I have no problem with those disagreeing with my opinion. I do challenge them to know something about the issues though.
What I do have a problem with is those whom attack me on a personal level instead of debating the issues I raise. Some try to blur the line between our elected civilians whom I hold responsible for the Iraq War mess and our soldiers fighting the Iraq War mess.
Those claiming that attacking the elected and appointed civilian leaders who started the Iraq War, is somehow showing disrespect for our soldiers fighting and dying in Iraq (and Afghanistan)...to attempt to link the two is a tactic used when one does not want to debate the issue.
Make no mistake about what the issue is for me...
Elected civilians = Bush, Cheney
Appointed civilians = the neocons
Who are these neocons?... Does anyone else but me, know the answer?
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
Home of the Free, Because of the Brave...
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