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This is such a sad story. Police: Family prayed instead of getting medical aid for girl who died Associated Press — 3/26/2008 9:35 am WESTON -- An 11-year-old girl died after her parents prayed for healing rather than seek medical help for a treatable form of diabetes, police said Tuesday. Everest Metro Police Chief Dan Vergin said Madeline Neumann died Sunday. "She got sicker and sicker until she was dead," he said. Vergin said an autopsy determined the girl died from diabetic ketoacidosis, an ailment that left her with too little insulin in her body, and she had probably been ill for about 30 days, suffering symptoms like nausea, vomiting, excessive thirst, loss of appetite and weakness. The girl's parents, Dale and Leilani Neumann, attributed the death to "apparently they didn't have enough faith," the police chief said. They believed the key to healing "was it was better to keep praying. Call more people to help pray," he said. The mother believes the girl could still be resurrected, the police chief said. Telephone messages left at the Neumann home by The Associated Press were not immediately returned. The family does not attend an organized church or participate in an organized religion, Vergin said. "They have a little Bible study of a few people." The parents told investigators their daughter last saw a doctor when she was 3 to get some shots, Vergin said. The girl had attended public school during the first semester but didn't return for the second semester. Officers went to the home after one of the girl's relatives in California called police to check on her, Vergin said. She was taken to a hospital where she was pronounced dead. The relative was fearful the girl was "extremely ill, dire," Vergin said. The girl has three siblings, ranging in age from 13 to 16, the police chief said. "They are still in the home," he said. "There is no reason to remove them. There is no abuse or signs of abuse that we can see." The girl's death remains under investigation and the findings will be forwarded to the district attorney to review for possible charges, the chief said. The family operates a coffee shop in Weston, which is a suburb of Wausau, Vergin said. Source
Our honor defend, we will fight to the end, for OHIO! GO BUCKS!
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While I would never do something like this, you have to respect the freedom of religion. If it was truly against their beliefs and wishes, then who can tell them to decide otherwise?
I am unfamiliar with this feeling of optimism
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Nothing like religion to make a person lose all common sense!
"My country is the world, and my religion is to do good" Thomas Paine
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I don't think that's fair. While most of us wouldn't even consider doing something like this, these people's religion and beliefs mean everything to them.
I honestly don't know where you draw the line. As most know, I usually only draw my line where someone else is hurt. And here, someone was. It's a very difficult situation.
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I do believe in the power of prayer I really do, but in a situation like this adults have to show some common sense. It sounds like this girl was seriously sick and getting worse and obviously needed medicine  I blame the parents but you have to feel for them b/c their beliefs were so strong they thought they were doing right. And they have to feel horrible. The whole situation is terrible
Our honor defend, we will fight to the end, for OHIO! GO BUCKS!
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Quote:
I don't think that's fair. While most of us wouldn't even consider doing something like this, these people's religion and beliefs mean everything to them.
I honestly don't know where you draw the line. As most know, I usually only draw my line where someone else is hurt. And here, someone was. It's a very difficult situation.
Therein lies the problem...these people put their little girl's health and life into a belief system. That's completely irresponsible. It's probably a belief system she didn't understand or subscribe to, so why should she suffer and ultimately DIE, because her parents "didn't have enough faith'
ARE YOU KIDDING ME?!?!?!
"My country is the world, and my religion is to do good" Thomas Paine
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Quote:
I do believe in the power of prayer I really do, but in a situation like this adults have to show some common sense. It sounds like this girl was seriously sick and getting worse and obviously needed medicine I blame the parents but you have to feel for them b/c their beliefs were so strong they thought they were doing right. And they have to feel horrible. The whole situation is terrible
I don't feel bad for them...I feel bad for her...cause she was born to some dumb ass parents.
"My country is the world, and my religion is to do good" Thomas Paine
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1st String
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Karl Marx- "Religion is the opiate of the masses" ......this sad tale shows me that zealots aren't confined to the middle eastern suicide bombers. I am sure they are telling themselves : "it was Gods will"
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Yup, they didn't have faith enough and God got pissed at them so he decided his retribution would be to kill this little girl .  These freaks should be in prison . If their child was on fire would they just sit idly by and pray for God to extinguish the flames from above with rain ?
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There's a song by Outkast called In Due Time...which is ironically where I get my name from
But there's a line in this song that says it best.
"Believe that when you pray, the next day you gotta try
Can't wait for nobody to come down out the sky"
I believe it fits this situation
"My country is the world, and my religion is to do good" Thomas Paine
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Before we get on the nutty religious people thing, I want to point out. Quote:
The family does not attend an organized church or participate in an organized religion, Vergin said. "They have a little Bible study of a few people."
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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Quote:
Before we get on the nutty religious people thing, I want to point out.
Quote:
The family does not attend an organized church or participate in an organized religion, Vergin said. "They have a little Bible study of a few people."
I don't see your point
"My country is the world, and my religion is to do good" Thomas Paine
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I think maybe what he means is that eventually this topic will morph into a religious debate and take attention away from the fact that these people were just your garden variety wack jobs who just happen to be religious.
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You mean you can't be extemely religious if you are not a part of an organized church?
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Sure, just like people of religion are better parents, right Arch? What do you think now?
#gmstrong #gmlapdance
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He probably only meant people in his particular religion. 
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While I would never do something like this, you have to respect the freedom of religion. If it was truly against their beliefs and wishes, then who can tell them to decide otherwise?
Let them pray for their own healing, but why kill a little girl? What's wrong with God letting them use insulin shots?
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Should the parents go to Jail?
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Should the parents go to Jail?
Yup. Criminal Negligence, pretty clean cut fits the definition.
Like some poster said, if they were on fire would you just pray for god to save them or do you pour water on them?
They literally had to do one thing - take their sick child to a doctor. for 30 days they let their kid get sicker and sicker, suffer, vomit, and finally die. Freedom of religion is the freedom to belief, and to practice.
It's fine for them to pray for god to help their child. it's fine to believe He will. But there are still minimum things you have to do for your kids to keep them alive, no matter what you believe.
I may believe water is poison, but if my kids dying of thirst, i better give them water anyway.
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Should the parents go to Jail?
Yes
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Quote:
Quote:
Before we get on the nutty religious people thing, I want to point out.
Quote:
The family does not attend an organized church or participate in an organized religion, Vergin said. "They have a little Bible study of a few people."
I don't see your point
These thread usually turn into the whole "This is why I don;t believe in organized religion" debates.
And I was pointing out that these folks were not part of any organized religion or church to anyones knowledge. Which typically these are the folks that are more extreme in their beliefs, and tend to do things that a typical believer would even find extreme.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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Extreme is extreme, regardless if it's organized or not. Nobody's looking at suicide bombers like oh they're not part of Hamas.
It doesn't matter, these people put their daughter's life in the hands of a ghost, the boogie man. All because of religious beliefs. Just because they weren't Methodist, Baptist, Catholic, or whatever garden variety religion you can name, doesn't mean a damned thing.
"My country is the world, and my religion is to do good" Thomas Paine
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These parents have every right in the world to believe that their God can do anything they believe Him capable of doing.
The problem enters when they use their precious child as a pawn to test the limits of faith and intervention. There child cannot be used as a guinea pig in their stand for proving their beliefs.
I bet they don't do that again!
The American people will never knowingly adopt Socialism. But under the name of 'liberalism' they will adopt every fragment of the Socialist program, .
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Nevermind you just don't understand what I'm saying, and it's not worth the time or effort to explain it.
I feel sorry for this little girl, but thanks to our servicemen and our freedoms, they are allowed to refuse medical treatment in favor of divine intervention. Is it right? In my opinion no, but they have that freedom, and we can't just take that away when it doesn't meet our personal feelings.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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Quote:
but they have that freedom, and we can't just take that away when it doesn't meet our personal feelings.
When their superstitions endanger the life of an innocent child we sure as heck can take that right from them.
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You call it superstitions, they call it faith.
Who's to say who's right?
If God appeared before us now, and said, I'm taking this little girl because I need her in heaven with me, would you be fine with that?
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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Quote:
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but they have that freedom, and we can't just take that away when it doesn't meet our personal feelings.
When their superstitions endanger the life of an innocent child we sure as heck can take that right from them.
So you think the State has a right to control your religious beliefs?
#gmstrong
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Yup, they didn't have faith enough and God got pissed at them so he decided his retribution would be to kill this little girl . These freaks should be in prison .
If their child was on fire would they just sit idly by and pray for God to extinguish the flames from above with rain ?
Just be careful what you wish for Ire... this is a sad and very extreme case... but if you want to throw them into prison because they were negligent in taking care of their child.. then what are you going to say when they decide that the parents of a child that is 80% overweight are negligent... or 50%... or 30%.. perhaps those parents should be in jail as well, especially if the child ends up being diabetic. Perhaps parents who smoke in the home or car with the child should be put in jail if that child develops breathing problems or asthma...
I'm extremely saddened by this case and I can tell you that the parents beliefs are not in concert with my own... but before we hang them, we might want to analyze where it could end up as we continue to give the state more and more say in how we raise our kids.
yebat' Putin
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It doesn't matter, these people put their daughter's life in the hands of a ghost, the boogie man.
So are you implying that all of us who believe in a higher power, whatever our religous beliefs are, believe in a ghost or a boogie man??
SO because of some people who went overboard you want to pigeonhole all religion? Thats real nice coming from a black man who doesnt want to be stereotyped. 
KING
You may be in the drivers seat but God is holding the map. #GMSTRONG
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So you think the State has a right to control your religious beliefs?
In this case and cases like it where a helpless child has her life endangered you bet your butt I do. Do you think that this little girl wanted to die because of her parents misguided notions of faith ?
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The mother believes the girl could still be resurrected, the police chief said.
.......
This isn't a video game...
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I understand the slippery slope that puts me on but I'd be willing to go there in cases like these . Obviously you'd have to take a case by case look at it but when lives are in immediate peril and the parents can easily stop suffering and death but refuse ....they have IMO just lst the right to be parents. I can see where the bigger picture can get cloudy but this is a simple right and wrong case.
BTW I am actually for having parents who have obese kids being mandated to take courses in parenting and finding out about the harm they are doing to their children by simply failing in that aspect of parenting .
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Quote:
Quote:
It doesn't matter, these people put their daughter's life in the hands of a ghost, the boogie man.
So are you implying that all of us who believe in a higher power, whatever our religous beliefs are, believe in a ghost or a boogie man??
SO because of some people who went overboard you want to pigeonhole all religion? Thats real nice coming from a black man who doesnt want to be stereotyped.
KING
Ahhh, play the race card!
I didn't imply anything about you or the rest of the religious world...I said that these people put their daughter's life on the line for a belief in....what? GOD? I'm sorry, but as the bible says, god does for those who do for themselves. They thought that some mystic person was gonna appear and cure their daughter...that is the boogie man.
Not all religious people believe that.
Try not to assume too much, and next time you wanna accuse someone of playing the race card...remember your post.
"My country is the world, and my religion is to do good" Thomas Paine
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Quote:
The mother believes the girl could still be resurrected, the police chief said.
The defense rests!
"My country is the world, and my religion is to do good" Thomas Paine
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BTW I am actually for having parents who have obese kids being mandated to take courses in parenting and finding out about the harm they are doing to their children by simply failing in that aspect of parenting .
What about parents of young teenagers who drink or smoke or skip school or are getting Ds and Fs or look at a lot of internet porn? You for mandating classes for them also?
yebat' Putin
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For the record I think they should go to jail and the other children taken away. Not for what they believe but for what they did.
Also agree with the slippery slope as in fat kids and when it becomes a health threat so we need to be careful.........but at the same time if a child is so fat that they die of it ..........shouldn't those parents also be held accountable?
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Quote:
It doesn't matter, these people put their daughter's life in the hands of a ghost, the boogie man.
I didn't imply anything about you or the rest of the religious world...
Yes you did imply something about people who believe in a higher power, you stated, and it is in quotes above, the hands of a ghost, the boogie man.
I dont agree with what these people did to that child at all but I am very offended at your insult of mine, and others faith in god by referring to him as the boogie man.
Also, I was not playing the race card. I was pointing out that in past posts, you have complained bout being stereotyped, yet you pinned these nutjobs on religion as a whole. They didnt do what they did because of religion, they did it because they are nuts.
KING
You may be in the drivers seat but God is holding the map. #GMSTRONG
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Not for what they believe but for what they did.
And this is where the general disconnect lies... what they did, is in perfect harmony with what they believe... the two are not seperate. It's not a switch that they turn on and off like they sit around praising God and placing all healing powers in his care and then at some moment yell... "Abort, Abort, Abort.... let's take her to the hospital, she's REALLY sick."
I will restate that I don't agree with this aspect of their faith but I genuinely believe that a lot of people who comment on it, have no idea what real faith is... because they treat it as if it's this act that people will just turn off if it looks like it's not working... and that's not how it works.
yebat' Putin
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What about parents of young teenagers who drink or smoke or skip school or are getting Ds and Fs or look at a lot of internet porn? You for mandating classes for them also?
And there is the slippery slope . I know where it can end up and all of the problems that can arise from not being farsighted enough to see that questions like these will arise. Look, I realize that you cannot mandate common sense and you can't make someone become a decent parent but in matters of life and death IMO you sure can . Smoking, drinking are bad for your health but, again this is my opinion , are not as an immediate threat as this or even in the same league as child obesity .
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Sure, just like people of religion are better parents, right Arch? What do you think now?
Now, was this called for?  Talk about taking something out of context - geez.
And for those people wanting to use this as an example of what is wrong with religion, give me a break. If this example sours you on religion, or if it adds to your negative view of religion, that's really too bad and also very narrow minded, in my opinion.
And jules, when did I say MY religion was the only "good" one?
These parents were flat out wrong - having faith is fantastic. Going to a doctor is also a good thing.
I better stop here.
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Help; 11-Year Old Dies
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