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This is one of those issues that demands I respond before letting other posters influence me. I promise to read all the posts... but I want to be as honest and forthright in my post as I can be, without being influenced by what others may think.
My sister was involved in a religious sect that eschewed medical intervention... and she was involved with this group for the bulk of her early adult life.(20-35) She has seven kids... six of whom were birthed at home, with only a midwife serving as "trained medical help." Several of those birthings were "touch and go," because of her own medically fragile situation.
She was afflicted with a mild case of Cerebral Palsy from birth, which partially debilitated the left side of her body. She wore a leg brace (and the horribly stigmatizing white orthopedic shoe attached to it)... from age 2 until age 13 (when she defiantly threw her leg braces into the trash can.) She had 20/200 vision in her right eye, and 20/400 vision in her left eye. She'd worn corrective glasses for all her life until she joined "the cult," but threw them in the garbage can on her 19th birthday- as a demonstration of her new-found "faith." (Didn't stop her from driving her kids all around town for years afterward, tho...)
Bottom line: when she left her family to attend college, she was a prime candidate for predatory cults such as the one I suspect is working upon these people.
With each announcement of a new pregnancy, or each report of a near-miss car-related accident on our city streets, my apprehension for her safety (and the safety of my rapidly-growing family) grew. I didn't go a day without worrying about her or my nieces/nephews... for years and years and years.
Thank God they've all made it to young adulthood now, without the kind of tragedy we're reading about in this thread. My sister left the cult about 15 years ago, but the choices that she made during that time have impacted upon our family a kind of history/drama that can now not be changed. Much of it would have been easily avoidable, had she been "thinking right" at crucial times.
As a helpless bystander to a life story that could have been startlingly similar to this one, I can only send out my prayers to the bereaved family for their unimaginable loss. As a die-hard citizen of Our Country and the precepts upon which it was founded, I can only say. "this is the bitter taste that comes with the sweet- when we allow our citizens self-determination."
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As a nation, we've chosen to empower Our Citizens to determine the courses of their own lives... for better or worse. It's the right choice- even when it manifests itself in tragedy- and personal choices that go horribly wrong.
When I read about stories like this, I say to myself, "There but by the grace of God go I/we"
Which gets right down to the heart of this issue: As consumed with worry as I (and my parents) was, I somehow knew it wasn't my place to tell my sister how to live her life. Her "life choices" were entirely her own to make- as is the case for ALL of us. No amount of pleading, screaming or cajoling on my part was going to make her forsake her day-to-day expression of faith, or make her choose a new path until she was ready to do so. All I could do was to be there for her- through thick and thin- until she found her way to the other side of her journey.
Because we live in a country which allows it's citizens to practice whatever belief structure they see fit to adopt, we are honor-bound to let others do as they see fit... even if it hurts us, or subjects us to tragedies like the one being discussed in this thread. It's part of the price we pay for living in a "free society"... and the price is worth it.
My sister could have lost her life many times over in her search for Her Truth... as she muddled her way through bad choices and "misplaced trust." She could have lost any number of her sweeties, who are now making their ways into this world- and who make my life better for having them here with us.
As tragic as this story is, we're better as a community for having the freedoms which allow such people to make the choices that they do.
If you wish to argue the point with me, feel free to do so- which is your right. I only ask one thing before you do so- consider the alternative... and the kind of society we'd be living under, if such a thing were Our Nation's Reality. In my humble opinion, we'd be hearing of many more tragedies and atrocities that would make this story seem like a walk in the park... and it would be our nation's governers who'd be imposing this Hell upon us.
Trust me- we're better off as a society letting our citizens make their own mistakes- instead of letting our government dictate the mistakes we're ALLOWED to make.
.02,
Clemdawg
"too many notes, not enough music-"
#GMStong
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Ah the cunundrum that is religion....
These parents truely believed that if they prayed enough and properly, that god would perform a miracle and save their daughter. Even now that their daughter is dead, they still expect that miracle. Their faith has truely confiscated their lives, and they have no recourse but to hold true to their faith, no matter the costs. If they would have taken their daughter to a doctor, they may have saved her life, but they would have broken faith with their god. Oddly enough, the old statement of "god helps those that help themselves" never came into play for these people. Are they suffering the trials of Job, did they not have complete faith, or are they the misbelieving fools?
I do know that now they have a dead child, someone will "save" them from themselves.
Ah, the cunundrum that is religion....
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Reminds me of a story I once heard:
A devout man found himself in a flood. Water was rising fast, and his only hope was to head to the roof of his house. Once he got up there, he prayed to God for the miracle that would save him.
Some time passed... and a log came floating by. "It's just a log... God will perform a miracle to save me. I've prayed on it, and have faith."
The water continued to rise. It was approaching the roof.
Awhile later, a man in a raft came along. "Climb in... I'll row you to safety!" "No, thank you- God will save me."
The water continued to rise. It was now engulfing the roof, and the situation was dire.
As the water began to rise to his chest, a recue helicopter flew overhead. It hovered above him, and a rope ladder was dropped. The rescue squad pleaded with the man to grab the rope ladder, but he steadfastly refused, saying "God will grant me a miracle and save me- my faith is strong enough to see me through this perilous time."
Eventually, the waters overtook him, and he became another drowning victim.
At the gates of Heaven, the man asked St. Peter, "Why did God forsake me? I prayed with all my heart, and my faith was unshaken... right up to the end. Why wasn't God there save me?
St. Peter looked at him and said, "What happened to the log, the raft, and the helicopter?"
"too many notes, not enough music-"
#GMStong
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Thanks for the story Clem, that's kind of along the lines I was thinking, it seems to me that some people think miracles must come in some larger than life form (possibly like these parents) but, in all actuality the small mundane miracles are all you need to get the job done.
LET'S GO BROWNS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/OldSixty-Two/new0400001.jpg) [b]WOOF WOOF[b]
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I don't know what else to say about this story other than it's beyond sad.
#GMSTRONG
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I'm somewhat amazed by the number of people that have disdain for religion - and since, in this thread we are talking about christianity - I'm amazed at how poorly christianity is viewed.
I'm amazed, too.
Christianity is viewed poorly because of stupid christians. Just like some people on this board view Islam poorly because of stupid Muslims.
Ghandi once said, "Christianity would be a great thing, if someone would try it."
Very few christians are loving, forgiving, turn the other cheek, communist, vow of poverty, people. That's one of the things I find so hypocritical about Republican Christians. Christ was a socialist, didn't believe in amassing wealth, was a pacifist to the extent that he rather die than raise a hand to another human being, forgave everyone - criminals, prostitutes, murderers. If one tenth of the Christians in the world actually followed the teachings of christ, the world would be a better place. As it is, it's a joke. Jerry Falwell was a joke, Pat Buchannan is a joke, W Bush is a joke. Probably the worst "christian" that ever walked the earth.
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Oddly enough, the old statement of "god helps those that help themselves" never came into play for these people.
That's because God only exists in our minds, and these people were tragically short in that department.
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In this case, yes, he is the boogie man.
And I've heard plenty of stories of the power of prayer. I'll leave my own thoughts out of it, but I'm well aware..you won't surprise me with miraculous stories of faith and prayer...I've heard them.
I'm still praying for you bud. 
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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Thanks chief. I definitely appreciate the sentiment.
"My country is the world, and my religion is to do good" Thomas Paine
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Dont' pray for me. I'm hoping God has just forgotten about me. Dont' remind him.
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Your very welcome Sir
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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Dont' pray for me. I'm hoping God has just forgotten about me. Dont' remind him.
To late I already was 
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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Very few christians are loving, forgiving, turn the other cheek, communist, vow of poverty, people. That's one of the things I find so hypocritical about Republican Christians. Christ was a socialist, didn't believe in amassing wealth, was a pacifist to the extent that he rather die than raise a hand to another human being, forgave everyone - criminals, prostitutes, murderers. If one tenth of the Christians in the world actually followed the teachings of christ, the world would be a better place. As it is, it's a joke. Jerry Falwell was a joke, Pat Buchannan is a joke, W Bush is a joke. Probably the worst "christian" that ever walked the earth.
"Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men." - Lord Acton
All those people you listed were in powerful positions. There are alot of everyday working folks who are Christians, and try to live a good, honest life. They mess up, they sin, they make mistakes, but they do try to live according the the bible.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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Even other religious members of this board are trying to say that because they didn't belong to an "organized" religion, that somehow they believed in something else...at least that's how I interpret that argument.
No, because they do not belong to an organized religion, it's hard to tell where they get their interpretation of the Bible... Methodists beliefs differ slightly from Baptists which differ slightly from Catholics and so on, but generally people know what they belief. If the beliefs of these people come solely from small group Bible study, then who knows how they interpret it...
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If you honestly believe that this god, and only this god has the power to heal, then slit your wrists and tell me if god comes to save you.
Refer to my previous post... thou shalt not tempt the Lord your God. Even Jesus wasn't willing to do that.
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Or better yet, go down to your nearest hospice and tell those people they need not worry, god will save the day.
They need not worry.
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Religion has been used to keep people fearful, don't do this or god will be mad at you. But if you live your life right, and something bad happens to you, it's just god's will...that's nonsense.
I can fully understand why somebody who doesn't believe and has never felt it, would feel that way.
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And like I said, god's will and free will are in direct contradiction of each other.
I can fully understand why somebody who doesn't believe and has never felt it, would feel that way.
yebat' Putin
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DC I also think one of the problems some people have is they forget about the Devil... watching people (especially kids) get sick and die IMO is NOT God's will... why he allows it to happen though I do not know... but I don't believe for a second that God wants people to suffer...
<><
#gmstrong
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Christ was a socialist,
I must have missed the passage where Christ said, "Givest all they worldly possessions to Ceasar and let him distribute them to those in need."
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Very few christians are loving, forgiving, turn the other cheek, communist, vow of poverty, people.
Very few?
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forgave everyone - criminals, prostitutes, murderers.
He forgave those who repented and professed faith...
yebat' Putin
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j/c
It's odd how so many seem to attack "God" because of the ignorance of a few "people".
My parents beliefs were to use the power of prayer combined with simple home remedies for illnesses. However, if the illness became severe, or it was a broken bone, etc..... medical attention was sought.
Which at the time (late sixties and early 70's) was thought to be wrong. You see, at the time, everybody who got the common cold went to the Dr. for, and recieved antibiotics. Many still do. But later it was found that the overuse of antibiotics simply made cold and flu strains more resistant to antibiotics. So in reality, my parents were slightly ahead of the curve.
My parents also believed in "organic gardening". They believed that that the pesticides and insecticides may turn out to be far more harmfull than the good they might do. Once again, in this department they were WAY ahead of the curve!
We raised our own beef without shots to make them gain water or hormone shots. Once again, my Fathers wisdom was ahead of the curve.
My dad would give you the shirt off his back. He would feed ANYONE if they were hungry.
So you see, there are good and bad in everything. Yes, I have met "self rightious Christians". I've met people who "claim to be Christians" yet seem to be missing the entire point as to what it means to be a Christian. Like I said, there's good and bad in everything.
But by and large I've found that people who believe they must answer to a higher power for their actions here on earth, seem to be better people. Once again, this is NOT a "steadfast rule". But to believe you will eventually pay for major misdeeds, and be rewarded for your good deeds, tends to make people a little more cautious about their actions here on earth.
And no matter their choice of Religion, I consider that a good thing................
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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So you see, there are good and bad in everything. Yes, I have met "self rightious Christians". I've met people who "claim to be Christians" yet seem to be missing the entire point as to what it means to be a Christian. Like I said, there's good and bad in everything.
But by and large I've found that people who believe they must answer to a higher power for their actions here on earth, seem to be better people. Once again, this is NOT a "steadfast rule". But to believe you will eventually pay for major misdeeds, and be rewarded for your good deeds, tends to make people a little more cautious about their actions here on earth.
Well said, and I agree - especially the last paragraph! Course, there are some that may hold that last statement against you/me.
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But by and large I've found that people who believe they must answer to a higher power for their actions here on earth, seem to be better people. Once again, this is NOT a "steadfast rule". But to believe you will eventually pay for major misdeeds, and be rewarded for your good deeds, tends to make people a little more cautious about their actions here on earth.
And no matter their choice of Religion, I consider that a good thing................
Pit, in the end.. neither you nor I will be held accountable for the actions of Jerry Falwell or these parents or David Koresh or Adolph Hitler or anybody else. When we stand before God it will be for our own actions and inactions... that's it.
yebat' Putin
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I fear a world where science shows proof that God doesn't exist, that the masses take as truth.
The only thing keeping many people from doing as they please is fear.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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The only thing keeping many people from doing as they please is fear.
I disagree completely. Love, respect, and positive motivation are much more powerful influences of human beings than is fear. Using fear to influence somebodys behavior achieves minimal short term results with very negative long term consequences.
yebat' Putin
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Love, respect, and positive motivation
Have you not seen the youth of today? None of those 3 is a part of many of their lives.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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NRTU, but I saw a funny image today. It's too big to post, so I'll just type it:
Christianity: In the beginning ... there was an ultimate being ... who created everything.
Atheism: In the beginning ... there was nothing ... which exploded.
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All those people you listed were in powerful positions. There are alot of everyday working folks who are Christians, and try to live a good, honest life. They mess up, they sin, they make mistakes, but they do try to live according the the bible.
Most everyday working folk who are Christians supported the war in Iraq at first. Violence, even in self defense, is against the teachings of christ. Many of them believe in the death penalty as well. Christ gave away everything he had to those in need. Most christians hoard wealth like the rest of us. And most importantly, Christ didn't judge, that was left to his father. This board alone has quite a few judgmental chirstians, without sympathy to those in need - homeless, drug addicts, welfare moms. They judge muslims, homosexuals, and others who are different than they are. They support war and even join the military. That's not what Jesus would do.
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While I would never do something like this, you have to respect the freedom of religion. If it was truly against their beliefs and wishes, then who can tell them to decide otherwise?
I CAN. What they DID makes them unfit as parents. This is the same situation as a parent STARVING a child for no reason. They obviously do not have the capacity or intellegence to raise a child. They have no RIGHT to withhold medical treatment and impose their RELIGION upon a dying 11 year old girl. If you can't understand why that is wrong then you truly are ignorant.
Cleveland Browns, Space Browns ![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/iVP5Po2.png)
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Yes, that's why Christians are not perfect. They have sin, they have bad tendencies.
That's why Christ died on the cross, to pay the debt for those sins, because God knew we were not perfect, because......here it is....He gave us free will....
God was willing to give us everything, but he also gave us the choice to accept it or not. He gives us the choice to do things, whether good or bad, to learn on our own, to love him or not love him. He could easily have made us mindless zombies that lived in a perfect utopia, but that's not what he wanted.
Then add the devil into the equation and you see where that free will gets us. But God is willing to forgive us if we repent.
Exodus 22:2 "If a thief be found breaking up, and be smitten that he die, there shall no blood be shed for him" --- Defend your family and your home.
1 Kings 3:13 ""I R149 have also given you what you have not asked, both riches and honor, so that there will not be any among the kings like you all your days."
--- Seems God had no problem giving wealth to those deserving, and that knew how to appreciate and use it, he didn't expect everyone to live in poverty.
Sure there are some that are bad, and some that are not all good, and some that still hold prejudice's....That's what makes us human, and that's why we need God in our lives, to help us overcome those shortfalls. But it is never easy, automatic or instantaneous, and often without fault.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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No, because they do not belong to an organized religion, it's hard to tell where they get their interpretation of the Bible... Methodists beliefs differ slightly from Baptists which differ slightly from Catholics and so on, but generally people know what they belief. If the beliefs of these people come solely from small group Bible study, then who knows how they interpret it...
Does it matter, are they not all christians? A rose by any other name...
Are Shiites and Sunnis not still muslims?
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I can fully understand why somebody who doesn't believe and has never felt it, would feel that way.
You didn't read all my posts. I did feel it. I still feel that connection and love...just not in anybody's name or organized belief structure.
"My country is the world, and my religion is to do good" Thomas Paine
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Does it matter, are they not all christians? A rose by any other name...
I'm a Christian, there are other Christians who do not believe as I do or act like I think they should act. We can call ourselves whatever we want....
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Are Shiites and Sunnis not still muslims?
I suppose... is it still possible for one group to act better than the other, yes sir.
yebat' Putin
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Most everyday working folk who are Christians supported the war in Iraq at first. Violence, even in self defense, is against the teachings of christ. Many of them believe in the death penalty as well. Christ gave away everything he had to those in need. Most christians hoard wealth like the rest of us. And most importantly, Christ didn't judge, that was left to his father. This board alone has quite a few judgmental chirstians, without sympathy to those in need - homeless, drug addicts, welfare moms. They judge muslims, homosexuals, and others who are different than they are. They support war and even join the military. That's not what Jesus would do.
Your are criticizing Christians because we can not all be as perfect as Christ is?? Wow, tough crowd 
KING
You may be in the drivers seat but God is holding the map. #GMSTRONG
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j/c Yet another case of insanity.
Faith-healing parents charged in baby's death
15-month-old girl died from untreated infection, authorities say
Oregon prosecutors review girl's death, faith-healing law
Grand jury indicts couple in baby's death
Man Pleads Not Guilty In Yutan Hunter's Death
Parents choose prayer over medicine
March 31: Madeline Neumann died from an undiagnosed, but treatable, form of diabetes. Her parents hadn't taken her to a doctor since the age of three because of their religious belief. WTMJ's Heather Shannon reports.
NBC News Channel
updated 12:00 p.m. ET, Mon., March. 31, 2008
OREGON CITY, Ore. - A couple whose church preaches against medical care are facing criminal charges after their young daughter died of an infection that authorities said went untreated.
Carl and Raylene Worthington were indicted Friday on charges of manslaughter and criminal mistreatment in the death of their 15-month-old daughter Ava. They belong to the Followers of Christ Church, whose members have a history of treating gravely ill children only with prayer.
Ava died March 2 of bronchial pneumonia and a blood infection. The state medical examiner’s office has said she could have been treated with antibiotics.
Dr. Christopher Young, a deputy state medical examiner, said the child’s breathing was further hampered by a benign cyst on her neck that had never been medically addressed, The Oregonian reported.
Laws passed in the 1990s struck down legal shields for faith-healing parents after the deaths of several children whose parents were members of the fundamentalist church.
Since those laws took effect in 1999, “We haven’t seen any cases of significant medical neglect ... until now,” said child abuse Detective Jeff Green of the Clackamas County Sheriff’s Office.
The Worthingtons could face more than six years if convicted on the manslaughter charges and up to a year on the mistreatment charges, said Greg Horner, chief deputy district attorney. They were released on $250,000 bail, he said.
Horner said he didn’t know whether the couple had lawyers to speak for them. A number listed for the couple was disconnected. A man who answered the phone at the church Monday would not identify himself and said: “We’ve been told ’No comment.”’
The Worthingtons also lost a baby boy in 2001, but an investigation was closed after family members told police the child was stillborn. Several other Followers of Christ children have also been stillborn or died during home births in recent years, and none of the deaths resulted in criminal charges, authorities have said.
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When is enough going to be enough.
"My country is the world, and my religion is to do good" Thomas Paine
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Most everyday working folk who are Christians supported the war in Iraq at first. Violence, even in self defense, is against the teachings of christ. Many of them believe in the death penalty as well. Christ gave away everything he had to those in need. Most christians hoard wealth like the rest of us. And most importantly, Christ didn't judge, that was left to his father. This board alone has quite a few judgmental chirstians, without sympathy to those in need - homeless, drug addicts, welfare moms. They judge muslims, homosexuals, and others who are different than they are. They support war and even join the military. That's not what Jesus would do.
Your are criticizing Christians because we can not all be as perfect as Christ is?? Wow, tough crowd
KING
No, I'm criticizing Christians for not even believing in the teachings of christ. .
Last edited by jobenincasa; 03/31/08 10:02 PM.
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Quote:
No, I'm criticizing Christians for not even believing in the teachings of christ. .
Generalize much?
KING
You may be in the drivers seat but God is holding the map. #GMSTRONG
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j/c I came across this quote and it struck me as being true and in line with what I believe.
Our creator is the same and never changes despite the names given Him by people here and in all parts of the world. Even if we gave Him no name at all, He would still be there, within us, waiting to give us good on this earth.
George Washington Carver
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The general sense I get from this thread is that christians feel that they can't be criticized.
I know you'll all say "we're not perfect", but as soon as someone says something to the contrary about christianity, you're all up in arms.
That's cool, you have the right to defend your faith. But sometimes it seems kind of volatile (not necessarily you king)
"My country is the world, and my religion is to do good" Thomas Paine
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Legend
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We feel criticized when we are all lumped together as though we all have identical beliefs, sins, judgments, etc.
We aren't perfect, some less than others, but to define us all by a few is absurd.
Not much different if we went around saying those that don't believe in God are murderers, rapists, thieves and pedophiles.
Of course we are not all perfect like Christ but then again, this world would be full of lifeless flesh if we all had to be perfect at something to try it. and that means anything, sports, recreational activities, driving, speaking, singing, dancing, etc.
Last edited by FloridaFan; 04/01/08 11:01 AM.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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What the guy above me said
KING
You may be in the drivers seat but God is holding the map. #GMSTRONG
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Quote:
The general sense I get from this thread is that christians feel that they can't be criticized.
This goes back to the sterotype analogy I tried to make earlier in this thread that didnt go over real well. To say Christians this, or Christians that is kind of absurd. Especially considering there is over a billion Christians on this planet. You can criticize a particular Chrisitian, or even a certain group of Christians, but to make a critical comment about the whole group is likely to be inaccurate.
KING
You may be in the drivers seat but God is holding the map. #GMSTRONG
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Quote:
You can criticize a particular Chrisitian, or even a certain group of Christians, but to make a critical comment about the whole group is likely to be inaccurate
That's the thing, I'm not just criticizing christians, I'm criticizing christianity, or better yet, religion on a whole.
My problem is with the concept, which leads to weak minded fools doing such things as the ones we've been discussing.
I don't have a particular problem with chrisitans individually, unless they take exception with the fact that I have not accpted jesus christ as my personal lord and savior. I've been told many times that I'm going hell...my response...I'll save you a seat!
"My country is the world, and my religion is to do good" Thomas Paine
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Quote:
We feel criticized when we are all lumped together as though we all have identical beliefs, sins, judgments, etc.
Who has time to dice christians into different sects...bottom line, you're all still christians, and you have to take the good with the bad...just like me being black (this is for you king), I have to take the negative stories about my people along with the good ones. However, just because there are some bad black people, doesn't mean that we're all bad, but it doesn't change us from all being black.
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We aren't perfect, some less than others, but to define us all by a few is absurd.
Let's be completely honest here, it's more than just a few!
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Not much different if we went around saying those that don't believe in God are murderers, rapists, thieves and pedophiles.
They do...remember a certain televangelist saying that katrina was god's punishment for new orleans for their "godlessness"...or was it because ellen degeneres was hosting the emmys or the oscars (I think that was 9/11, I get the craziness confused)
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Of course we are not all perfect like Christ but then again, this world would be full of lifeless flesh if we all had to be perfect at something to try it. and that means anything, sports, recreational activities, driving, speaking, singing, dancing, etc.
Perfect?...Christ broke the law, and committed a sin(completely debatable) when he destroyed a church..although it was for a good reason! One I agree with to this day.
All in all, christians pass a lot of judgement on other people, but run and hide when it's time to take at their own ideologies and actions. It's almost like the world is just supposed to accept christianity as the only true religion...oh wait...that's what missionaries are for
"My country is the world, and my religion is to do good" Thomas Paine
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