DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Savage conducting chemistry experiment in Cleveland

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There's a reason it's a team sport.

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Yes, its a team sport, when your team has to overcome 8 turnovers in two games in stretch run on the road no matter how well your defense plays, if the opposing team has TD's handed to them and then are starting drives from are 45, you won't win.

It just cracks me up how "your stupid" and "your cracking on DA" when you talk about his bad play which equalled his good play. It really pisses people of when "facts" are brought up.

It's simply their "opinion" is better than my "opinion".

Also the notion that our defense was the MAJOR reason we lost late in the year. ask any coach, GM, scout, assistant, broadcaster, fans what the biggest factor in winning and losing games......turnovers. Eight in two games. That is why we lost, take away the turnovers and the Arz and Cinci games are easy wins.

Another thing that I can't get over is how many people think that what we got out of DA last year will get us 10 wins in 2008..which is a joke, DA has to play ALOT better or we'll be sitting at 7 wins.

DA showed promise and has the physical ability to be our franchise QB, but has also showed enough to show he could be nothing but a big armed backup. Hence his contract.

This is why it's imperative to just have an open competition, let both QB's play under the microscope. The best guy will show himself and the fans won't be stirred because they'll see it with there own eyes.

The DA doubters will stop, the Quinn camp will shut up.

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I will tell you right now that if I think the better player is on the bench

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Based on what? Preseason games?

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I have a fear that DA is going to do just enough to keep his job but not enough to convince me that he is the guy and we are going to be sitting here in the same place next year only with major salary and hold out implications on the line......

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As far as the Raiders game.. you make an interesting point about Nat Dorsey because that game is a microcosm of our entire season.. DA plays awful in the first half with a couple picks and no points until we are down 16-0.. then Cribbs has a return for a TD, then the defense forces a fumble which allows us to get a late first half FG... then in the second half DA starts playing well and some people on this board just wanted to give him credit for his comeback effort. I have no problem giving credit for a comeback effort, but when you are coming back from your own mistakes, then I have to point that out... in that one game every unit played well for part of the game, every unit sucked for part of the game, Cribbs did his part to try to bail us out and in the end it was a close loss... not unlike our whole season...

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I hope you aren't talking about me. I blasted DA then and only pointed out his comebacks because Pit said he crumbles at crunch time.

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I will tell you right now that if I think the better player is on the bench

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Based on what? Preseason games?

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I have a fear that DA is going to do just enough to keep his job but not enough to convince me that he is the guy and we are going to be sitting here in the same place next year only with major salary and hold out implications on the line......

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So..............you think that Savage, RAC, Chud, and Rip want to play the worse QB? Un--freaking--real. You guys make no sense!

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So why did Charlie Frye start ahead of DA last year in week 1? Because he's better? Because he looked so much better the previous year? Because he looked so much better in practice? Because he looked so much better in preseason? Or because our coaches made a mistake in judging performance?

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Hellooooooo......helloooooo.......echooooo......echooooooooo

Wow, no response to that one.

I think you pretty much summed up what I really have been thinking. Is the best QB really going to be on the field? I can tell you that no way in hell did I think DA was the man for the job going into week 1. He did absolutely nothing for me to feel even remotely comfortable. Charlie got the nod because he was the "incumbent," and ended up getting sent to the fish market a few days later.

I pray the same thing doesn't happen this year.

I ate my words when DA came out and played well, but you have to make the playing field equal here. Sure, DA came out and got us 10 wins. But if the other guy can give me 12, why would I want 10?

I don't have a problem with DA being named the starter right now, taking reps with the 1's, and coming out the first preseason game. I don't have a problem with him finishing the season as the starter either, as long as he is the right man. But if Brady Quinn goes out and looks even better, I hope they don't hold the kid back.


I'm not trying to turn this into a BQ vs. DA thing, it's more along the lines of "put the right guy on the field because I'm tired of losing and want a Superbowl" thing.

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I do not understand why they do this. Why not just say that we are going to let the guys compete and that DA starts out #1 on the depth chart because that's where he was the last time we had a game? Instead...they have handed the job to DA already. (FWIW, I would have the same problem if they handed the job to BQ.)

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29 passing TDS, 3787 passing yards and 25.1 ppg. That is 25.1 ppg!

Those numbers equal starter, not incumbent. Yes Derek has a fine offensive line in front, one of the leagues top set of receivers (imho) and a thousand+ yard RB, but he is the one that can get the ball to spots downfield in a timely fashion that only a handful of the leagues QBs can. I would also argue that opposing defenses perhaps didn't figure DA out as much as maybe they were able to slow Chud down.

On the other hand.....

19 interceptions. Considering last year's -2 turnover ratio and our porous defense that really hurts. The thing I find ironic is that Derek's numbers last year mimic his collegiate career including the interceptions. I suspect that will be his downfall. With three years of starting at Oregon State and last year I'm afraid that this is not a trend, but reflective of his abilities. NFL careers can be decided quickly and I would think that if he doesn't reduce the picks this season then Brady will take the reins. As others have said, economics push the issue.

I want to be wrong because quite simply if Derek can produce without the double digit picks then we are likely much closer to having something to cheer for in January. Hell we may even booking flights.

No QB controversy, Nothing pathetic about it. Just a little off season comments to stir the deadbate. Then again, the deadbate is cool...it's better than having Sorgi on the bench.

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I ate my words when DA came out and played well, but you have to make the playing field equal here. Sure, DA came out and got us 10 wins. But if the other guy can give me 12, why would I want 10?

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but DA has earned the right to be named the starter at this point, over a guy who has something like eight pass atempts. BQ has to prove that he is the better guy for the job.

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That sounds an awful lot like last season's goings on.

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I just hope we get a coin toss in there somewhere so I can watch everyone completely freak out over absolutely nothing again.

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I ate my words when DA came out and played well, but you have to make the playing field equal here. Sure, DA came out and got us 10 wins. But if the other guy can give me 12, why would I want 10?

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Exactly. People accuse me (and everybody else who thinks BQ deserves a chance) of being a DA hater.. I love DA, he helped make last year 100x more exciting than I thought it was going to be. He helped win games to get us on the cusp of the playoffs. He exceeded all expectations and he deserves every chance to see if he can improve on that performance... I don't disagree with any of that.

The question that lingers in my mind is... Is he the QB to take us to the next level? And with that I still have doubts. Sorry if that makes me a "hater"...

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Always haters......

I agree...being on the other side of a issue doesn't make a person a hater.

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Some people really do "hate" on a player. We've all seen it and know who's done it and with whom. There is a difference. I did hate on Butch, I'll freely admit that.

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JC

I don't know how anyone could have watched every play of every game last year and be certain that Anderson is the guy.

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"THE deciding game" could have been any win in place of any of the six losses. Now, I already know that "THE deciding game" refers to the last chance. That does make it somewhat of a superbowl game. That's where your "crunch-time" reference comes from. But there were six other chances throughout the season that would have gotten the job done thus not requiring "THE deciding game".

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Also, DA played pretty well in a lot of games when it turned into crunch-time. He didn't crumble like a Keebler cookie "every time" we got to "crunch-time/make or break situations". That was one game that gets blown out of proportion badly.

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Personally, I would put more emphisis on the game plan for that windy game that Chud stubbornly stuck with for what I thought, in hindsight, was too long. We had a beast of a running back who put up 216 yards on that same team earlier in the season, before our OL even had a chance to gel, but instead, Chud's got our quarterback throwing all over the place on a very windy day. But Chud gets a flyer on that because he's a first-time OC and has shown some real offensive success in earlier games.

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Yes, I too do not believe it was "the best pssible game plan". But you see ddub, I've watched this game for over four decades now.


Sorry, but I've seen Bart Starr, Fran Tarkenton, Brett Favre, John Elway ( DAMN IT! ) win and excel in just as bad or worse conditions. We can play the excuse game all we like, but in make or break situations, I don't see DA having "it".

Once again, that's why they are known as "the field generals". Not a private or an NCO.

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Well, DA was a first-time QB and also had shown some offensive success in earlier games. So how does he become the goat? He becomes the goat simply because he's the quarterback. Well, that, and so many fans want to see BQ playing. And that right there made it "THE deciding game" as if the other five losses didn't count.

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I remember the offense bailing out the defense in the first cincy game. And in some other games as well. The only thing the defense did in the second meeting was not allow a lot of points on a very windy day against a premier passing offense.

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You can take those 4 interceptions DA threw and put them up against defensive players who would admit that had not the defense made these mistakes or those mistakes the end result would have been different. It's a team. It's more than the one guy the television camera focuses on every game.

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You just keep telling yourself that.

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Pit, you know better than to blame a loss on one player. I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish in this line of reasoning.

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I'm not defending DA by my comments. My purpose in my comments to BrownsFanZ was to expose the kind of thinking that blames one player, any one player, for the loss of a game and then extending that line of reasoning to blame one player, any one player, for the disappointing result of an entire season.

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Someone correctly mentioned in a post above that in the 'one guy lost the game' line of reasoning, Nat Dorsey lost the Oakland game. But that was one play out of an entire game. Dorsey was only in on a handful of special teams plays. How does he become responsible for a loss? If the rest of the team played so damn well in that game how did it come down to one play? Oakland sure wasn't setting records with their performance.

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If Nat Dorsey handled the ball on EVERY snap the O played, that line of reasoning would make far more sense.

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How about all the other plays in that game that fell south? Had the offense and defense gotten the job done it would never have come down to that one kick and that one block.

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It's a team game for cryin out loud. You can blame your pitcher, and maybe the catcher too, for giving up 4 home runs. They're the only guys from your team in on those plays. You can give all the credit to your hitter for a walk-off home run win in a tie game. He's the only guy from your team in on that play.

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But those kinds of plays don't happen in football.

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You can't blame any one football player for the win or the loss of a football game. There are too many plays involved and each play requires that all 11 players do their job for a successful play. Someone can miss a block away from the play on a successful run and it won't matter so much. But there were still a gang of offensive players who did their job right or that play wouldn't have been successful.

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If someone is going to give DA the goat horns for all six of the losses, especially THE deciding game, then he must also get the golden crown for all ten of the wins. When I went to school ten was batter than six unless it refered to the number of whacks I got for screwing up.

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I want to see Brady Quinn play too. Who ain't curious about that? We gave up a lot for him. He should be good. But in the end it doesn't matter who plays. As I said, I'm not defending DA in my comments. Rather, I'm speaking out against the stupid reasoning some folks use to defend their desire to play one QB over another.

It's not about defending one player. It's about defending common sense. The-theia-the-theia-the-theia-the-That's All Folks!

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And common sense should dictate the day IMO.

You see, I'm of the opinion, and having played sports all through high school, I've seen it first hand MANY times, that when "the heat is on" some people step it up a notch. Their competative juices flow. They actually "play better" under such stress and pressure.

Then I've seen "the chokers". Who, when the heat is on, they crunble under the pressure of it. Now you may see the logic in this, or you may not. But please at least think about this and consider it........................

DA was not "the named starter" going into the 07 season. ( could that be an omen?)



But let's look at DA's "personal relationship" with this situation. There really wasn't two tons of pressure on DA in the beginning. He knew the system better and adding the hold out by Quinn, and it was pretty appearant that he was Frye's successor.

So while being a starting NFL QB is most certainly a job that carries a lot of pressure and stress in its own right, there are "degrees of pressure".

Now let's fast forward to nearing the end of the season. How much did the pressure raise? Let's take a look at it for a minute. First, let's look at DA's "long term career". He knew he would be a FA at seasons end. He knew that in those last few games, it could garner him a 5 to 6 year deal as a "franchise QB' making anywhere from 45-60 million dollars.

He knew that by playing "lights out" there would create a higher value and competition for his services that would command a high price for a LONG time! He also knew that by performing well in the Cincy game, he would have made the playoffs which in essence would show that he could handle the heat when the pressure was on to other teams that could drive his value even higher.

Once the stress and pressure elevated to that juncture, we saw the results. He had yet one more chance to redeem himself to drive up his stock, the pro bowl. One last "at bat" to raise his stock which could mean the difference in millions of $$$ to DA. Yet once again we saw the results when "the REAL heat was on".

You see, I'm not trying to use DA as a scapegoat here. Actually, I'm simply breaking down how he performed in the face of increasing pressure and adversity when such performances were critical to his wallet and career.

Now you can explain that away by weather if you like. Although I've seen MANY "good QB's" play VERY well in as bad and worse conditions. While I look at a far more human elements. ie... career and continued success. Thus it appears we see two starkly contrasting pictures.

And good night Mrs. Kallibash, wherever you are............

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That sounds an awful lot like last season's goings on.

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I just hope we get a coin toss in there somewhere so I can watch everyone completely freak out over absolutely nothing again.

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I don't see how ANYBODY could question such a media circus and pure decisiveness like that!

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The question that lingers in my mind is... Is he the QB to take us to the next level? And with that I still have doubts. Sorry if that makes me a "hater"...

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You've summed up my, and I believe the vast majority of people who fall on this side, opinion on this subject. The venom to which some feel the need to attack those of us with this opinion are not understandable to me.

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I have a "gut feeling" that at least somebody will consider that an "ignorant comment".



But it won't be me. I'm with ya on that one!

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One last thing...Quinn has been refered to as a "gamer", not that good in practice (Josh Cribbs on an ESPN interview). That sounds a lot like what was said about Frye. Frye got blasted for that. People said if he can't look good in practice, how can he be any good.

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I can't really speak for how he looks in practice, but he looked very solid in preseason and in the only drive he got in for. Very poised, had control, made good decisions. I can't say the same for Charlie.

They said Charlie wasn't the best practice player, but did well when the lights went on.

He did?

We got a longer look at Charlie than we did at this point with Quinn. But what I've seen with Quinn is much better than anything I've seen with Charlie, so I don't think that's a fair comparison to make. They are 2 different QB's.

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The question that lingers in my mind is... Is he the QB to take us to the next level? And with that I still have doubts. Sorry if that makes me a "hater"...

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You've summed up my, and I believe the vast majority of people who fall on this side, opinion on this subject. The venom to which some feel the need to attack those of us with this opinion are not understandable to me.

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I have a "gut feeling" that at least somebody will consider that an "ignorant comment".



But it won't be me. I'm with ya on that one!

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Just food for thought...if DA really was kicking Quinn's butt, why would Mel Kiper say the Browns are even happier with Quinn now than they were when they drafted him?

Doesn't make sense...

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They said Charlie wasn't the best practice player, but did well when the lights went on.

He did?

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there is no reason to think BQ can be better or even close to as good as DA was last year.

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He was also fairly inaccurate for the majority of the season and far below average in the league in accuracy.

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I know most of the people I generally watch the games with cringe every time he drops back, me included

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All I can really say is he has a quick release and a strong arm

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"Derek has played over 1,000 snaps, and there's still people that have doubts outside of our building," Savage said. "Brady's played 10 snaps, and people are convinced that he's the guy. It's really kind of illogical."

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I completely agree (not that Savage cares...lmao) and that is why I have felt that our club has a real opportunity to be good and stay that way.

I was impressed with Phil's preseason press conference last year as he described how he and Romeo broke down the state of the teams situation to evaluate need. It was blatantly honest. Phil has continued to be forthright and that is so refreshing, especially after Policy and Botch.

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I agree to a great extent. 56% last year and about 50% in three years of starting in college. As I said before, I tend to think that those numbers are a reflection and not a trend.

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A reflection of what?

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For the first time in years when our QB dropped back I expected good things.

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