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I suppose it is each to his own. I do have a problem w/that line of thinking. In fact, that was my original point. *L* I prefer not rob Peter to pay Paul. I prefer not to charge things and pay more for them later, which is exactly what they did w/BQ and Rucker. Hell, he's done that quite a few times now.
BQ and Rucker are 2 different situations...that´s what I´m trying to explain...for BQ we gave up an "additional" draft pick, which could have been invested in another player...but the Rucker move was just 1 pick...a 3rd round pick..1 pick for 1 player...we paid what we thought he´d be worth...nothing more...we didn´t rob Peter to pay Paul...for BQ? yes, but not for Rucker/Bell and Hubbard/Rubin....in fact we just robbed Peter for BQ....I know you don´t like it...but don´t mash other moves with that 1, cause they are completely different...in value and picks given up....so, we robbed Peter ONCE...so no, he has NOT done that "a few times"...he did it once
we pretty gave up picks for players 1to1 the rest of the way...C.Williams, Rogers, Rucker/Bell etc.
So, the question remains: is C.Williams worthy of a low 2nd? Rogers of a low 3rd+Bodden? Bell/Rucker of a 3rd? Rubin/Hubbard 5th etc?
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I really don't get your logic.
We gave up a number 22 and 36 to get a 22 in the BQ deal.
We gave up a 3rd rounder to get a 4th rounder in the Rucker deal.
Like I said.............if you like that strategy.....fine. I personally don't and you ain't changing my mind.
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us."
--Ralph Waldo Emerson
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Savage has put us in a great position to win this year....that's the bottom line. He is NOT mortgaging the future of this team in anyway. We are young at almost every position....we are fine.
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In defense of Savages trading this year, somewhere in the back of his mind he has to figure he has a pick in the bank for Quinn or DA.
One or the other is going before next season, and it will be a pretty decent pick.
I still say there is a decent chance one or the other is gone before camp breaks this year.
If we have a guy who is clearly the leader, and some team finds itself in a qb bind, we might get the offer we can't refuse.
I don't have a problem with Doresy as #2 and finding someone else from a waiver list or one of the guys we just signed.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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I have to agree with Vers, here.
I'm not a big fan of trading future picks. Eventually it will bite you in the ass. Of this I have no doubt.
I've also seen the idea floated that we have a pick "hidden" in the future trade of BQ or DA. In my view, that is not necessarily true. We don't have to trade BQ for, what, at least 4 years? He could stay as a backup for the length of his contract. He wouldn't like it but, frankly, who cares?
And DA is only a trade commodity if he has a good year in 2008. If he tanks it who's gonna want him? And if he doesn't we're not gonna let him go. So we might have an added pick in 3 or 4 years. Or maybe, in your scenario, next year. But no one really knows that for sure. And banking on that is really pretty risky, in my eyes, anyway.
No, robbing Peter to pay Paul can be temporarily satisfying, but the bill always come due. It's just a question of when.
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If you make it a common practice it eventually catches up with you.
I don't think we are at that point by any means.
You also have to factor that every one of those traded picks weren't going to turn I to great players.
I think we were one of the youngest teams in the league last year, and don't think we are one of the oldest this year.
It is all about production and value in that 4-5 year time frame you can realistically expect from any player, be it a drafted player or one added in FA.
I also think you are way off base about DA....he isn't going to tank to the point he doesn't have any value.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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DA is nearly a 9 million dollar cap hit next year. Either DA or Quinn will be gone next year. Also, no way DA's value drops to the point of us not being able to get anything for him.
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I thought we traded a third rounder in next year's draft for the TE we chose this year? Am I wrong about that?
You're not wrong. We traded next years 3rd to take Rucker in the 4th (112 overall?) this year.
Plus a 5th for Paul Hubbard.
![[Linked Image from pic18.picturetrail.com]](http://pic18.picturetrail.com/VOL905/3216203/6567769/349897772.jpg) "The Browns' defense is kicking mucho dupa."
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I also think you are way off base about DA....he isn't going to tank to the point he doesn't have any value.
No value.....probably not. But he could stink it up enough to be benched. Hell, that could happen before halftime in the first game (see Frye, Charlie).
But if he gets benched, say, 3-4 games into the season he'll ride the pine until his contract expires and then move on and try to be a starter for someone else.
Now, before Vers gets on here and busts a spleen telling me how stupid I am for dissing DA let me interject here that all of this is just conjecture. I doubt it happens. But it could. And you have to consider the possibility of the bad with the good. At least IMO.
"People who drink light 'beer' don't like the taste of beer; they just like to pee a lot."
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But if he gets benched, say, 3-4 games into the season he'll ride the pine until his contract expires and then move on and try to be a starter for someone else.
If you think that we will pay DA almost 9 million next year and nearly 12 million next year to ride the bench and then get nothing for him, you are crazy. 
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Cal: What I meant is that I have seen that comment about past regimes multiple times. Therefore, I wasn't trying to single you out. I bought into that the first couple of years, but I think it's time--actually past time--to let that one go. It should not continue to be an excuse for every questionable move Savage makes.
I get that and I also get your point that the practice should cease for the overall and future benefit of the team. I do not disagree with you on this at all. The point I'm making is that it probably will, but Savage needed to get this team to a point where he could and can.
The argument may be made that some of the trades weren't necessary or perhas as you say were questionable, and I won't argue which one were which, but a point about whether would we have had a 10-6 record last year and can we be as competitive this year without some of those trades can and should be argued. And blame can and should be laid directly at the feet of those past regimes whenever the discussion of mortgaging future picks within these past three years comes up, IMO.
If DA goes down, it's good we have Quinn. We did not have a QB going into last years draft partially because of the old regime's refusal to build a line to protect ones we had. And no one certainly knew DA was going to have the year he did because we had to grab the guy off waivers. Not where you usually find your starter, yet were we needed to find ours. If K2 goes down, I'm glad we have Rucker. Maybe K2 doesn't wreck his bike if he's not feeling the need to prove something while recovering from two surgeries from an injury sustained playing special teams, or if he's coached by a staff that teaches maturity and personal responsibility. When LeCharles went down and Hallen retired it was necessary to give up a 6th round pick this year to get Hank because we didn't have an O-line, let alone one with heart and Faine was too small for our division and on and on.
Context plays a roll in these discussions and so does the irresponsibility exhibited by the old regimes until we've fully recovered from their ill effects. Just because you've heard the argument to the point of frustration, doesn't make it any less relevant. What we are starting to see though, is that these types of trades are happening less often with lower picks because a full recovery is actually taking place. There will always be the occasional trade or move up, that's the nature of the beast, especially when addressing need and until we can honestly look at the team and say we're set at every position and only need to draft BPA they'll occasionally happen, but next year if they do happen, I'm virtually certain they will have far less impact on the future. JMHO
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/hfMNC7T.jpg) "I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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Cal when you put out your first book i will surely buy it. Very well written. You have me agreeing with everything you said.
nordawg
The only reason people get lost in thought is because it's unfamiliar territory.
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It's been said over and over this off season that that Pitt doesn't have an Offensive line, or rather, that they have major offensive line issues but it doesn't add up. They were second in the league last year in passer rating. 3rd in rushing yards and average. They had over 300 yard more rushing than we had last year. You just don't end up with those numbers with a crap line.
They also averaged nearly 5 more carries per game than us. We averaged 0.1 more yards per rushing attempt than they did last season. Willie parker carried the rock 24 times more than Jamal did (321 to 298) in more playing time (Jamal is credited with playing 15 games, but one of those was the game against the Pats, in which he carried the ball one time and got injured), but only had 12 more yards for the season, for 0.3 less YPC than Jamal.
But enough of the stats, anyways. Watching the Steelers play, especially in the latter half of the season, Ben was running away from guys in the backfield constantly. He made plenty happen with his feet, his arm, and Hines Ward's sure hands when his line couldn't give him the time he needed to throw. Honestly, now that Faneca is gone, is there a single player on the Steelers' line that you would take over any of the guys on Cleveland's? Colon? Essex? Mahan? Starks? Simmons? Smith? Kemoeatu? I wouldn't take these guys over Lennie Friedman and Seth McKinney, let alone our starters.
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Cal when you put out your first book i will surely buy it. Very well written. You have me agreeing with everything you said.
nordawg
lol, when that happens you'll be the first person I call. 
I do want to be clear though, I thoroughly understand Vers' point that not mortgaging future picks is important for the strength of the team. I just believe that we were so utterly screwed to begin with that Phil has had very little choice. Tack on the injuries to Baxter and LeCharles and it seems we were snake bit at the dawn of the new regime. However, even that seems to have turned around.
On another note, Rucker and Hubbard seem to have impressed coaches a little this weekend. If they pan out, it will make losing the two picks next year much more palatable and if K2 sits out or is unable play the entire year or any portion of '09, giving up the 3rd next year not only becomes a complete non-issue, it get relegated to the realm of being a very smart move. I hope K2 can and does stick around a long time because I am a HUGE fan, but I really don't like what I've been hearing and it's got to be taking a toll on him having surgery every year.
"I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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Vers,
I understand your point and I agree with it.
I just wanted to clarify, and correct me if I'm wrong Django, but I think he's trying to say that there are two different tiers of harm that occurred.
One is trades like BQ and Bell. There, we actually give up two spots to draft at one spot. This results in a net loss of a pick.
The other trades, e.g. Rucker and Hubbard, are where we trade a pick for a pick which results in no net loss of a pick, although there is an inherent disparity of trading a 3rd rounder to get a 4th rounder.
Sorry if I'm babbling.
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
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Hey Cal..........that was a damn fine post that was fueled by logic and reason. I don't agree w/it all, but I really respect how you broke it down. And just so you know, I do agree w/much of what you said.
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us."
--Ralph Waldo Emerson
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I knew we weren't that far apart on our thinking on this. 
"I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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If you think that we will pay DA almost 9 million next year and nearly 12 million next year to ride the bench and then get nothing for him, you are crazy. Well, my name isn't saneotto55....... But let me ask you this....If he was benched, by the same team that traded their last QB 2 days after he played only 1.5 quarters of the first game, and his salary is as high as you say just who do you think we'll trade him to? Evidently, someone with a lot of dough and a lot of faith. Look, I don't expect this to happen. But to act like we have a guaranteed pick in hand even if one of our QBs ends up stinkin' up the joint, or is permanently injured, or who knows what is bad business in my opinion. You don't have to agree. But just because I mention some possibilities doesn't really make me crazy.
"People who drink light 'beer' don't like the taste of beer; they just like to pee a lot."
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Well, my name isn't saneotto55.......
#gmstrong
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Bob Labriola, of Stelers.com, reports Pittsburgh Steelers RB Rashard Mendenhall (hamstring) missed both practice sessions Saturday, May 3, because of a slight hamstring strain. It is unlikely he will return for the final minicamp practice Sunday, May 4. http://www.kffl.com/hotw/nfl
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Alright! Off to a good start! Maybe he'll tweak it in mini-camp in June, and it will nag and nag and nag from then on. Is that mean of me? 
"The Browns' defense is kicking mucho dupa."
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Alright! Off to a good start!
Maybe he'll tweak it in mini-camp in June, and it will nag and nag and nag from then on. Is that mean of me?
I hope he's just fine. I don't want ANY excuses about injured players when we beat the Steelers BOTH times this year.
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Yeah, people always use that. I don't care. A win is a win. I'll take it however I can get it.
"The Browns' defense is kicking mucho dupa."
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Hoping for injury is mean though. Mean and unsportsmanlike.
Plus, as the Turk said, I'm tired of excuses. We won last season and too many are using the excuse that we had a soft schedule and that's why we won. Well, really they only say that when discussing how bad DA is, but still, I'm tired of hearing excuses.
For so long the excuses were for why we were losing. Now they are for why we are winning.
I think we match up pretty well against any one. Now that we have valuable experience on the DL I feel pretty good about our chances any Sunday. So, let's play the Steelers, and everybody else, with both teams 100% healthy. Let's see what we got and win some games.
Then there will be no excuses.
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He's already hurt. Wasn't wishing for an injury. Just a nag. 
"The Browns' defense is kicking mucho dupa."
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Plus, as the Turk said, I'm tired of excuses. We won last season and too many are using the excuse that we had a soft schedule and that's why we won. Well, really they only say that when discussing how bad DA is, but still, I'm tired of hearing excuses.
LOL..............funny how that excuse only gets used in regards to DA and sometimes RAC, but you never hear that reason for Edwards, K2, Lewis, the OL, etc playing well last year. 
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us."
--Ralph Waldo Emerson
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Starting with the deal in 2007 that netted quarterback Brady Quinn, and continuing with trades for defensive tackles Corey Williams and Shaun Rogers this year, Cleveland is putting all its eggs into getting into the playoffs in 2008.
Sorry if this has been posted, but I don't get this part... It's not like we signed another Ted Washington that is 38 years old.. Williams is what, 27? and Rogers is 29?.... It's not like if we don't win the super bowl this year a bunch of people are going to retire.... 
As I see it, the nucleus of our OL is fairly young, regardless which QB we end up with he's going to be young, Edwards and Stallworth are young, our safeties are young, our corners are young, our LB core is pretty young... So we picked up a couple veteran (not old, just veteran) DL and that signals desparation?
yebat' Putin
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I think that we would hold on to him for the remainder of the year. This year his salary isn't that high. And if we would be to trade him the other team would sign him to a long-term deal that is back loaded with a big signing bonus.
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is a 3rd and 5th really mortgaging the future?
these are picks that normally dont make the team.....considering we'll get a third or better from DA or quinn, what have we really lost?
what if phil trades down to recoup the picks? all is not lost by losing 2 second day picks....
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is a 3rd and 5th really mortgaging the future?
these are picks that normally dont make the team.....considering we'll get a third or better from DA or quinn, what have we really lost?
what if phil trades down to recoup the picks? all is not lost by losing 2 second day picks....
I think one of the important points is that if you get a 3rd and 5th rounder and they contribute nicely, they come at a lower cost than someone coming on their second contract (like Williams and Rogers are).
But, at the same time, those picks take time to develop, and by the time they do develop they may be on their next deals.
Either way I think it evens out.
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is a 3rd and 5th really mortgaging the future?
these are picks that normally dont make the team.....considering we'll get a third or better from DA or quinn, what have we really lost?
what if phil trades down to recoup the picks? all is not lost by losing 2 second day picks....
While not getting into this debate....your 3rd rounders should definitely be making the team
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is a 3rd and 5th really mortgaging the future?
these are picks that normally dont make the team.....considering we'll get a third or better from DA or quinn, what have we really lost?
Your first question.....
If your 3rd rounder doesn't make the team, you severely screwed up your pick. You gotta pick a guy that sticks and contributes the third round.
The second part, yeah, I'm sure Phil is gonna recoup some picks. I'd have to think one of our QBs will be moved next year. But you never know. But I'm sure Phil will make some extra picks next year for us. Plenty of time for that to happen, no need to worry about it. Our window is open now, so we need to worry about 2008 and making the most of our chances.
"The Browns' defense is kicking mucho dupa."
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either BQ or DA is gone next year...thats a given.....
#brownsgoodkarma
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they should contribute, i agree. but its still a crap shoot...
exhibit one, travis wilson.
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they should contribute, i agree. but its still a crap shoot...
exhibit one, travis wilson.
Exactly. That was a big miss right there by Savage.
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either BQ or DA is gone next year...thats a given.....
Don't bet money on it.
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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either BQ or DA is gone next year...thats a given.....
Don't bet money on it.
"I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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The premise of this guys argument is just incorrect. The draft is how all teams build. The Browns took a calculated risk in the trades made. The Quinn trade was through the draft to land a player they believed had a much higher value than where Quinn dropped too. The trades they made for Rodgers and Williams they felt addressed an area of need now. But they got proven young talent. Not guys who are over the hill.
On paper the Steelers draft looks good. "On paper" is the point because
the players have proven nothing at the NFL level. At this point they are prospects who the Steelers feel have potential.
Potential does not translate into proven talent. The Steelers draft can not be evaluated for at least two years. Then we can decide if their plans worked out.
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