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OK I know this is a volatile subject so Please lets keep it civil.
I was watching a good movie the other day...It was called "Facing the Giants". It was about a High School Football Coach who when everything in his world is going wrong, ( His team has been losing for 6 years, his car is beat up, worthless, and broken down, he makes little to no money, he and his wife are trying to have children for 4 years and he finds out that it is his fualt, his house is breaking down, most of his appliances are broken, he has been losing his players to different schools, his players have a defeatist attitude, and to top it all off he is about to lose his job as parents and board members are plotting behind his back to replace him), with all of this breaking him down, being a devout Christian, he turns to his faith for answers. He decides to place total faith in god and decides to take a completely new approach in his coaching. He takes much of his teachings in God and Christianity and infuses it in with his coaching in football and things begin to turn around. Things get better and yadda yadda yadda. I really enjoyed the film. I am not one who goes about pressing my beliefs on another. But I would gladly discuss them in an effort to encourage another to follow their own pathin their relationship with God. So this movie really got me to think some.
The film has done very well. And it has faced great criticism. Now as I was watching the film, I began to think. Had this been in the real world, the coach would have been strung up (after they had fired him..lol) had he not been teaching in a Christian School. The mere mentioning of God as a member of the staff within the School System would bring wrath upon him like no other.
But what was it that he was saying that was so bad??? If he were to do the same thing without a denominational connection....he would still be blasted. Adn the thing that would be brought up time and time again as the reason for that blasting is "Separation of Church and State"
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
Now my interpretation is that the Government cannot create a state sponsored religion. My interpretation is that we have a "freedom of religion" in that we can choose to follow any religion or none if we so choose.
So when did Freedom of Religion become Suppression of Religion??? Why is it not ok to allow a religious group to hold meetings on school property if all other religions have the same opportunity??? Why is a kid suspended because he put a cross in one of his pieces of artwork for class??? Why is a kid suspended because he says a grace just audible enough for the person next to him or her to hear???
There seems to be a crusades happening in America today. But not in the way you might think. Religion, and especially the Christian Religion, but Religion in general has been attacked vociferously. And I have to ask the question.......Why? What are you so afraid of?
I understand the distaste for those that try to push their religion into your face and they bombard you with it and judge you with it. Heck....I hate that my self. But that is not what is being attacked. The very mention of God in a public place and people go bonkers....
So when did Freedom of Religion become Suppression of Religion????? How did it happen and have we gone too far???(I know how I would answer...looking for other opinions...)
I thought I was wrong once....but I was mistaken...
What's the use of wearing your lucky rocketship underpants if nobody wants to see them????
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I remember once reading a joke about how assanine it is for people who can see how "church and state are separate" in the constitution, yet they can't see how someone has the right to bear arms...  Oh well... Freedom of speech in this regard is definitely supressed. I'm just thankful I have been able to pray all years of my education in a private school. My parents from the get go felt it necessary for me to be in an environment that cultivated and allowed for spirituality and a growing understanding of religion (my own and others) and it has really helped me in my faith and education as a whole. So what I don't understand is why someone, just because they don't believe in anything or in the idea that religion and education should not mix, can get about 8K to educate their students at a public school, yet I can't take any of that money for a public school I would be entitled to, and use it for a voucher, just because my parents prefer that faith-friendly environment? It's just not right... it really is not. It strained my parents to pay for that, and it was such a priority to them.... Tell me how that is just? I tolerate people of all faiths or lacking in a theistic existance and all, but it really seems as if spirituality and religion overall in this country, and the western world for that matter, is just not much of a priority and the secular values that really only promote a "ME FIRST" mindset have been embraced by most as of late. I find that unfortunate, as decadance is only a downfall of many cultures. I'm done ranting though... 
Politicians are puppets, y'all. Let's get Geppetto!
Formerly 4yikes2yoshi0
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Legend
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Quote:
So when did Freedom of Religion become Suppression of Religion?????
When people started turning their back on God.
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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When people started turning their back on God.
But GM...that had been happening LOOOOOOOOOOOONG before Freedom of Religion was ever a concept....
I thought I was wrong once....but I was mistaken...
What's the use of wearing your lucky rocketship underpants if nobody wants to see them????
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OK lets go with 1925  http://www.schoolprayerinamerica.info/I best part of this article IMO states "The following pages will show you how the courts removed Bible reading (teaching moral values), School Prayer and the Ten Commandments from our schools. The claim is made by the ACLU that these violate the Constitution, but then why did the founding fathers have, Bible reading, School Prayer and the Ten Commandments in their schools? Did they not understand their own Constitution? "
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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Quote:
OK I know this is a volatile subject so Please lets keep it civil.
I was watching a good movie the other day...It was called "Facing the Giants". It was about a High School Football Coach who when everything in his world is going wrong, ( His team has been losing for 6 years, his car is beat up, worthless, and broken down, he makes little to no money, he and his wife are trying to have children for 4 years and he finds out that it is his fualt, his house is breaking down, most of his appliances are broken, he has been losing his players to different schools, his players have a defeatist attitude, and to top it all off he is about to lose his job"as parents and board members are plotting behind his back to replace him), with all of this breaking him down, being a devout Christian, he turns to his faith for answers. He decides to place total faith in god and decides to take a completely new approach in his coaching. He takes much of his teachings in God and Christianity and infuses it in with his coaching in football and things begin to turn around. Things get better and yadda yadda yadda. I really enjoyed the film. I am not one who goes about pressing my beliefs on another. But I would gladly discuss them in an effort to encourage another to follow their own pathin their relationship with God. So this movie really got me to think some.
The film has done very well. And it has faced great criticism. Now as I was watching the film, I began to think. Had this been in the real world, the coach would have been strung up (after they had fired him..lol) had he not been teaching in a Christian School. The mere mentioning of God as a member of the staff within the School System would bring wrath upon him like no other.
But what was it that he was saying that was so bad??? If he were to do the same thing without a denominational connection....he would still be blasted. Adn the thing that would be brought up time and time again as the reason for that blasting is "Separation of Church and State"
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
Now my interpretation is that the Government cannot create a state sponsored religion. My interpretation is that we have a "freedom of religion" in that we can choose to follow any religion or none if we so choose.
So when did Freedom of Religion become Suppression of Religion??? Why is it not ok to allow a religious group to hold meetings on school property if all other religions have the same opportunity??? Why is a kid suspended because he put a cross in one of his pieces of artwork for class??? Why is a kid suspended because he says a grace just audible enough for the person next to him or her to hear???
There seems to be a crusades happening in America today. But not in the way you might think. Religion, and especially the Christian Religion, but Religion in general has been attacked vociferously. And I have to ask the question.......Why? What are you so afraid of?
I understand the distaste for those that try to push their religion into your face and they bombard you with it and judge you with it. Heck....I hate that my self. But that is not what is being attacked. The very mention of God in a public place and people go bonkers....
So when did Freedom of Religion become Suppression of Religion????? How did it happen and have we gone too far???(I know how I would answer...looking for other opinions...)
While it doesn't bother me, what I can't understand is why people need to publicly display their faith. Keep it at home, keep it in church. I don't care if your Christian, Muslim, Budist, a Wicken...whatever. However, being that, that isn't the case, I do agree the public is far less tolerable towards Christians. That is also wrong, if you are going to be tolerable toward one religion, you must be the same towards all religions.
[b]USNavyDawg (Ret.) ![[Linked Image from i87.photobucket.com]](http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k155/brownsfan4173/NFL-Football.jpg)
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It's rather simple, Pete. Those that oppose religious beliefs started making noise and twisted the spirit of the Constitution. The Founding Fathers intent was never what some have twisted the Constitution to. It happens quite frequently, as is evidenced in other threads about any subject about rights.
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While it doesn't bother me, what I can't understand is why people need to publicly display their faith. Keep it at home, keep it in church. I don't care if your Christian, Muslim, Budist, a Wicken...whatever.
I think you're right on. 
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However, being that, that isn't the case, I do agree the public is far less tolerable towards Christians
I think you're nuts. 
Less tolerable in comparison to what? Muslims? Wiccans? Atheists? Jews?
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OK lets go with 1925
http://www.schoolprayerinamerica.info/
I best part of this article IMO states "The following pages will show you how the courts removed Bible reading (teaching moral values), School Prayer and the Ten Commandments from our schools. The claim is made by the ACLU that these violate the Constitution, but then why did the founding fathers have, Bible reading, School Prayer and the Ten Commandments in their schools? Did they not understand their own Constitution? "
Ok, but why does the Bible HAVE TO be the moral teachings? Can't they teach morals some other way?
I'm Catholic and I have good morals but I'm hardly serious about it due to how behind the times Catholicism is, I prefer to use my own moral code and IMO it's worked pretty well.
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While it doesn't bother me, what I can't understand is why people need to publicly display their faith. Keep it at home, keep it in church.
Do you ever wear Browns gear to places other than football games? Do you ever talk about being in the Navy at places off base or off the ship? So if you are proud of being a Browns fan and proud of being in the Navy to the point that you feel compelled to share that (or at least display it) in other venues, then why would you find it odd that people feel the same or even more compelled to do so about something as strongly held as their faith? It really is a pretty silly notion that we are encouraged to proudly talk about and display who we are and what we are all over the place, but our religion, our faith, the thing some people hold most sacred in their lives should be relegated to behind closed doors at home or at church.
Having watched this conversation from a myriad of angles over the years the one thing that amazes me is that people of no faith or of little faith seem to think that faith, for those who have a lot of it, should be able to treat it like a light bulb.... turn it off when you go out, turn it back on when you get home. Faith isn't like that, not at all. A true person of faith lives it every minute of every day... granted that doesn't mean they need to talk about it every minute of every day... but they should be living it and if that means wearing a cross or saying grace over a happy meal or actually putting the GOD in front of "bless you" when you sneeze... whatever displaying and living their faith means to them I don't see how you could possibly expect them to just turn that off when they are outside the house.
Now to the original post:
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Why is it not ok to allow a religious group to hold meetings on school property if all other religions have the same opportunity???
Equal access is the law, if you open up a school to after school activities then you cannot exclude religion... The ACLU has people so scared that they still try... but the law says the school has to make it available.
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Why is a kid suspended because he says a grace just audible enough for the person next to him or her to hear???
Same answer as above. Kids are allowed to pray in a non-disruptive way anyplace they want in public school. Reference comment above about the ACLU scaring administrators into knee jerk reactions.
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Why is a kid suspended because he put a cross in one of his pieces of artwork for class???
ACLU, knee jerk reaction... NOT against the rules.
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So when did Freedom of Religion become Suppression of Religion????? How did it happen and have we gone too far???(
When did it happen? When people found some traction in the court system to start getting things banned and getting people fined and fired.... the bigger things they went after turned into little things and now people are scared to death so they make these stupid policies (in an effort to keep with the first amendment) which are actually in total violation of the first amendment. They also use the fear tactic, the "Oh, we're turning into a theocracy!" When actually we are heading in the other direction and religious freedoms are eroding faster than ever before..... Have we gone too far... yes, long ago.
yebat' Putin
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However, being that, that isn't the case, I do agree the public is far less tolerable towards Christians
I think you're nuts.
Less tolerable in comparison to what? Muslims? Wiccans? Atheists? Jews?
No, just far less tolerant than they used to be. What cracks me up (well it's not really funny) is that if you can't see how far this country has gone then you must live in a cave.. and I know you don't live in a cave... Imagine the founding fathers or any generation before about 1960 speaking of the Christian faith as something to be "tolerated"... 
yebat' Putin
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So when did Freedom of Religion become Suppression of Religion???
Today,You can't honor your faith anymore without offending someone. That's idiotic.
Basically, in an effort to be more poliitically correct and sensitive to other faiths, we, as a nation, have gone round the bend.. We've gone to far in the wrong direction. JMO however.
I don't remember all the details, But I do seem to remember that what caused the stir about school prayer was when some kids were required to say the lords prayer. And thier parents were not religious so they didn't feel it was right for thier kids to be forced..
Frankly, I agree.. They shouldn't be and shouldn't have been forced to pray if it goes against thier belief system..
But by the same token, for those that wish to pray, there should not be any rule that says they can't.
I do believe that that was the start of the moral decay of the United States..
But, that's JMO...
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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In my view the Supreme Court has taken upon itself a role the Constitution does not permit Congress to do - prohibiting the free exercise of religion. The court's agenda of banning religion is nicely packaged as "Separation of Church and State", however, the Constitution clearly leaves this issue up to us to decide - which we are capable of doing through our local city councils and school boards.
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Why can't we just tolerate every religion?
To me, the Bible thumpers, the fanatical Christians have ruined Christianity for me.
Telling us evolution is false when the scientific evidence is staring at you in the face? Ditto with the gay marriage thing...it's becoming increasingly apparent that being gay isn't a choice, yet they cling to the Bible on this subject. One of my friends who's a born again Christian tried to explain this topic to me and he said "Well, you know how you have urges and you don't act on all of them? It's kind of like that." I couldn't believe what I was hearing because as a straight man, I know if the roles were reversed (as in it was normal to be gay) I'd find it impossible to suppress natural urges.
No sex until marriage? Are you kidding me? If that were truly true then we'd all be going to hell! When I heard that in my PSR class I took it seriously but now I can't help but laugh!
Same with telling others that their religion is wrong...I don't believe any religion is wrong, it's just a different interpretation of the same concept. That includes Islam, unfortunately the radical Muslims have ruined American perception of Islam. But then again...is radical Christianity any better when they blow up abortion clinics?
Maybe it's because I've dated a few Jewish girls, I don't know, but Christian extremism has killed whatever strong faith I had in Christianity. I prefer to take my own non-Athiest path towards Christ and God, as I believe true faith comes through understanding yourself and others.
That's why I'm against having the Bible in school, don't force a concept not all people believe in on those who don't. I'm all for church groups meeting though.
As far as the Pledge of Allegiance? I hope it stays the same because "Under God" can mean so many things...be it an actual person named God, or a symbolic form, and I truly believe a higher power exists.
Last edited by Ammo; 05/15/08 08:59 AM.
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I'll try to get a word in before some of the back and forth nonsense that will ensue here. While I think people have gone too far with this argument in many cases, I do understand why people are leery, especially in schools, of having religion be a part of the teachings, etc. You can argue that the majority of people are Christians and therefore, people should expect to see this particular religion celebrated and in the forefront in the culture. However, there are many different interpretations and sects inside this religion and even they can't agree on what is to be believed and taught. So they would all be fighting amongst themselves about what is allowed and what is not. It's a no win situation with the number of religions and the differences inside each religion. Not to mention that somebody always takes it too far, and people don't want their kids to be taught, or themselves to be subjected in some public manner to some radical wack job teaching from his/her beliefs. The argument about the world going to hell in a handbasket because people "took God out of school" or " turned away from God" is garbage to me. People just use it as an emotional gut check to try and sway opinion to their beliefs. I'm a very religious person. I don't need a school or the government to guide me spiritually. I think it's weak if you do. Not to mention most of them tell me I'm going to hell anyway, and then smile, pat me on the back, profess their love for me, and talk about me behind my back. 
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Do you ever wear Browns gear to places other than football games? Do you ever talk about being in the Navy at places off base or off the ship? So if you are proud of being a Browns fan and proud of being in the Navy to the point that you feel compelled to share that (or at least display it) in other venues, then why would you find it odd that people feel the same or even more compelled to do so about something as strongly held as their faith? It really is a pretty silly notion that we are encouraged to proudly talk about and display who we are and what we are all over the place, but our religion, our faith, the thing some people hold most sacred in their lives should be relegated to behind closed doors at home or at church.
Not the same thing and you know it. Besides, are you saying that a sport and or a job is on the same level as one's religion?
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Equal access is the law, if you open up a school to after school activities then you cannot exclude religion...
Yes you can if they are school related. Now if the school allows some sort of bible study after school, and all religions that would like equal access are allowed to do so also, and those none believer's do not have to be involved... I have no issue.
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The ACLU has people so scared
I agree. 99% of the time, I find the ACLU to either be dead wrong or just too extreme.
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Imagine the founding fathers or any generation before about 1960 speaking of the Christian faith as something to be "tolerated"...
I can't imagine it. Why? Because our founding fathers were "bible thumpers", now that in of itself isn't bad, but they themselves allowed for separation of church and state and freedom of religion. Now don't get me wrong, I actually find it funny (ironic funny, not ha ha funny) but even though I am NOT religious, I do hold almost the exact same morals and values of specifically the Christian religions.
PhilDawsonRocks -
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Less tolerable in comparison to what? Muslims? Wiccans? Atheists? Jews?
Yes.
[b]USNavyDawg (Ret.)
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Jules, you know...
I respect you more and more every day.
[b]USNavyDawg (Ret.)
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... really means that there shall be no establised state religion. Having an establish religion caused problems in England and elsewhere in the century prior to the US Bill of Rights. If you did not belong to a certain church you could not hold elected office,vote,had to pay an extra tax,could not apply for certain jobs etc.
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Not the same thing and you know it. Besides, are you saying that a sport and or a job is on the same level as one's religion?
No I'm not.. I'm saying faith is far more important, which is why it is comical that you expect people to only discuss and display it at home or at church.
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Now if the school allows some sort of bible study after school, and all religions that would like equal access are allowed to do so also, and those none believer's do not have to be involved... I have no issue.
That is the law... and I have no problem with the law, I have a problem with the way people make policies without understanding the law.
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Because our founding fathers were "bible thumpers", now that in of itself isn't bad, but they themselves allowed for separation of church and state and freedom of religion.
Yes they did.. yet they prayed before Government meetings, put Gods name in every government document, etc. How do you account for that?
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Don't forget to sing Kumbaya Kumbaya my lord, kumbaya Kumbaya my lord, kumbaya Kumbaya my lord, kumbaya Oh lord, kumbaya Someones singing lord, kumbaya Someones singing lord, kumbaya Someones singing lord, kumbaya Oh lord, kumbayah Someones laughing, lord, kumbaya Someones laughing, lord, kumbaya Someones laughing, lord, kumbaya Oh lord, kumbaya Someones crying, lord, kumbaya Someones crying, lord, kumbaya Someones crying, lord, kumbaya Oh lord, kumbaya Someones praying, lord, kumbaya Someones praying, lord, kumbaya Someones praying, lord, kumbaya Oh lord, kumbaya Someones sleeping, lord, kumbaya Someones sleeping, lord, kumbaya Someones sleeping, lord, kumbaya Oh lord, kumbaya Oh lord, kumbaya ________ You can all thank me for now getting that song stuck in your head. Hee hee! 
![[Linked Image from i75.photobucket.com]](http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i302/lrhinkle/d5eaf0b9-e429-4211-b53f-b843bfcf6aa9_zps2ac17420.jpg) #gmstrong
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To me, the Bible thumpers, the fanatical Christians have ruined Christianity for me.
I wish you didn't see it that way. My wife says the same thing, and it bothers me.
I think it is wrong to judge Christianity by the annoying, in your face, judgemental, fanatical "Bible thumpers." They don't even come close to representing the majority. I wouldn't want people in the Middle East thinking all Christians are that way, just like a LOT of them don't want us to think ALL Muslims are crazy fanatics.
I'm saying this, even though I am not religious by any means. But I think that Christianity, for the most part, is based on good morals and the values I would like our society to live by. It urges us to be what I consider good good people.
The bad apples are NOT ruining the whole bushel.
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I see a whole lotta divergent view points here....I like most of what Jules says, and Ammo made some good points...then DC wants someone to account for why the old timers (read founding fathers) used the God thing alot.I attribute the frequent Godly references to the era they were in..reading the exerpt from the Constitution I was struck by the line "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; "Tell that to the Polygimists..they sure as hell got prohibited...you want God in Schools? Send your kid to a religious school. Ever notice the bad publicity the U.S. media gives the madrasahs..the Islamic Schools. They are always"hotbeds of fundamentalism.pertri dishes growing terrorists". My own personal credo is moderation...even as a Browns fan if we lose and I am in a sports pub I am not gonna get in a fight over a game. Religion, the practice of, the denial of, has sparked,throughout history,more world shattering events than any other single socio-economic cause. Schools,.public schools that is, are not churches..keep it seperate.
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A few of you make some really good points. I agree with pretty much everything DC is saying, and I also like josh's joke about how people can see "seperation of church and state" in the constitution yet they can't see the "right to bear arms". I complete agree with this from Reckon too: Quote:
In my view the Supreme Court has taken upon itself a role the Constitution does not permit Congress to do - prohibiting the free exercise of religion. The court's agenda of banning religion is nicely packaged as "Separation of Church and State", however, the Constitution clearly leaves this issue up to us to decide - which we are capable of doing through our local city councils and school boards.
The original forefathers intent of the "religious" part of the first amendment was to prevent another Church of England, where one church controlled the government and everyone was forced to abide by their rules. It wasn't meant to completely stiffle any mention of religion in a public forum, and it wasn't meant to negate any moralistic beliefs that people of religion might have.
Yet the supreme court and other lawyers have taken the mention of "seperation of church and state" and somehow inserted this into the Constitution. I've always joked that they've now turned this country into an "Atheistic Theocracy". Where only people who have no attachment to religion can make the rules ... and people who have a religion are only relevant if they agree with that small minority that believe in nothing. Like DC said, these same founding father who wanted a degree of church and state seperation are also the same guys that would pray before government meetings and the like. They'd probably roll in their grave if they saw how bastardized the Constitution was now.
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j/c
I hear all the time about seperation of Church and State. Yet at my school (a public school) we have religion classes during school hours. Every Wednesday morning we go to Church. This really isn't an issue at my school because 90% of the school is Catholic. This is clearly against the law. The only religous things we have at my school are for Catholics. What about the people of other religions? I think its kind of crappy even though I am not affected by it.
I wonder how many people on here believe in antidisestablishmentarianism. (I've always wanted to use that word in a way where it actually made sense) BTW antidisestablishmentarianism means the opposition of seperation of Church and State.
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Hahaha I'm sorry... seriously, sorry that Catholicism or any religion with moral standards isn't adapting to fit ideas of a selfish, decadent culture. I'm saying that in reference to the no sex before marriage thing. No one is going to hell solely for their misguided views on that, God's love isn't conditional on that level, it's unconditional... I'm just saying, before you tear down a fence, think about why it was put up in the first place.
As far as homosexuality, the bible isn't all that clear on that. The only definite rail against it I've read is in LEVITICUS, which is pretty much Moses with Tourettes Syndrome.... time will tell on that. But, before you do say it is a confirmed fact that people strictly are genetically born gay (though I think it has more to do with environment, experience) science is still working on that and it is not a fact, the jury is still out on it.
Lastly, and I'm sorry to be directing so much of this at you, but it seems somewhat hypocritical that you seem to have anger at Americans and their misguided views on Islam because of extremists, yet you sit and allow a few nuts from Christianity to distort your view of the religion and philosophy itself.
Personally I think the bible should be allowed in school and taught, as an optional elective course taken on the students' own volition, nothing forced or mandatory, but as an option there.
Overall, what I would say to you, yes it is frustrating how some people seem to be Christians in name only, that the whole concept of my faith and Christianity is best summed up as think beyond yourself and LOVE. Love is what it's all about, man. Don't let the acts of misguided or overzealous men ruin that, because it's the truth.... just love.
Back to the thread's more main focus as of now... it just seems that faiths are just real condescending to each other overall, and that's the same everwhere you go. Doesn't make it right or justified, but it is what it is. The best thing to do is understand why people think why they do about their faith, or the lack thereof in perhaps a theistic existance.
COEXIST Y'ALL
Politicians are puppets, y'all. Let's get Geppetto!
Formerly 4yikes2yoshi0
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1st String
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Today,You can't honor your faith anymore without offending someone. That's idiotic.
Basically, in an effort to be more poliitically correct and sensitive to other faiths, we, as a nation, have gone round the bend.. We've gone to far in the wrong direction. JMO however.
I don't remember all the details, But I do seem to remember that what caused the stir about school prayer was when some kids were required to say the lords prayer. And thier parents were not religious so they didn't feel it was right for thier kids to be forced..
Frankly, I agree.. They shouldn't be and shouldn't have been forced to pray if it goes against thier belief system..
But by the same token, for those that wish to pray, there should not be any rule that says they can't.
And how is anything done today preventing any child from praying in school if they want to? What "rule" says a kid who wants to pray o whatever god they want, cannot?
Kids can pray all they want, any time they want.
Seperation of church and state just means the teacher isn't leading a group prayer for the whole class.
You guys get your panties in such a bunch over nothing. Pray, pray, pray away -- anywhere and any time you want. No one is stopping you or your kids from worshiping whoever you want.
Sheesh. Get over it already.
If you want a religious state, move to the Middle East. We all see how great that way of life is working out for them.
**Insert clever signature here attributed to some historical figure that sounds interesting but has been taken completely out of context.
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Personally I think the bible should be allowed in school and taught, as an optional elective course taken on the students' own volition, nothing forced or mandatory, but as an option there.
I'd love to see it, but taught as a literature class. The only problem would be you would see switching of sides on this, because it would have to be evaluated as a work of literature and be critiqued as such, which would only lead to more uproar, IMO.
[color:"green"] "World domination has encountered a momentary setback. Please talk amongst yourselves." Get Fuzzy[/color]
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it would have to be evaluated as a work of literature and be critiqued as such, which would only lead to more uproar, IMO.
Yep, because it is VERY poorly written.
#gmstrong #gmlapdance
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Legend
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Ok, but why does the Bible HAVE TO be the moral teachings? Can't they teach morals some other way?
I'm Catholic and I have good morals but I'm hardly serious about it due to how behind the times Catholicism is, I prefer to use my own moral code and IMO it's worked pretty well.
Because thats what this great country was founded on. Now tell me which of the ten commandments is out of date.
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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Legend
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To me, the Bible thumpers, the fanatical Christians have ruined Christianity for me.
Telling us evolution is false when the scientific evidence is staring at you in the face?
So how do you think people who believe in creation feel when their kids are told in public schools that creation is a fairy tale?
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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Legend
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Not the same thing and you know it. Besides, are you saying that a sport and or a job is on the same level as one's religion?
As DC already pointed out bro. Many christians can't leave it at home. Many of us put God first. That means he is placed ahead of our own wants and feelings, ahead of our spouse, kids, family, and friends. Do we need to stand of street corners and thump..... hell no. Do we need to preach to everybody all the time... hell no. But we can't ignore and never talk about the most important thing in our lives.
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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Not to mention most of them tell me I'm going to hell anyway, and then smile, pat me on the back, profess their love for me, and talk about me behind my back.
I would need ten hands to count the number of times this has happened to me in the past 25 years. I have never, and will never, understand the line of thinking in those people. 
#gmstrong #gmlapdance
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Legend
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I hate religious discussion,, they bring out the worst and the rudeness in people
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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To me, the Bible thumpers, the fanatical Christians have ruined Christianity for me.
Telling us evolution is false when the scientific evidence is staring at you in the face?
So how do you think people who believe in creation feel when their kids are told in public schools that creation is a fairy tale?
Because science has shown it IS a fairy tale, and it's a responsibility for the science teachers in schools to teach what scientists have learned over years of reasearch. It's not like this theory came overnight...there's evidence everywhere supporting it.
As far as I'm concerned, the 7 days from the Bible is a metaphor for the big bang theory. 7 phases over millions of years until we evolved into homo sapiens. BUT, in religion's defense, it took a higher power to cause the whole thing to evolve. It just sounds logical and makes sense.
As for a commandment that's out of date? "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife." It's obviously morally questionable if not deplorable, but if two people find themselves in love...why not? There's too many shades of grey to say it's right or wrong.
Religion's main problem is that it has not kept up with the advances of social and technological change. They can say our country's moral fiber is decaying, I say we're being enlightened.
EDIT: But the beautiful thing is religion CAN be adapted with the times, it just needs to be done better. The Vatican sure as hell isn't doing it.
Last edited by Ammo; 05/15/08 11:37 AM.
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Legend
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I hate religious discussion,, they bring out the worst and the rudeness in people
WHO ASK YOU *&*%#*&^*&(*%#$&^
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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1st String
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OK lets go with 1925
http://www.schoolprayerinamerica.info/
I best part of this article IMO states "The following pages will show you how the courts removed Bible reading (teaching moral values), School Prayer and the Ten Commandments from our schools. The claim is made by the ACLU that these violate the Constitution, but then why did the founding fathers have, Bible reading, School Prayer and the Ten Commandments in their schools? Did they not understand their own Constitution? "
Ok, but why does the Bible HAVE TO be the moral teachings? Can't they teach morals some other way?
I'm Catholic and I have good morals but I'm hardly serious about it due to how behind the times Catholicism is, I prefer to use my own moral code and IMO it's worked pretty well.
Religion isn't supposed to change because the times have changed. I have a problem with that sentiment. We are supposed to change are ways and serve GOD, not the other way around. I honestly think this line of thinking has led some to have disbelief in GOD.
As per the original post, I think it depends on where you live in regards to how schools will treat religion. At my highschool in the late 90's, there were kids that got together and did whatever it was that they did with the Bible. The school (public school) had no problem with it as long as it did not take place during class time or caused problems with other students or faculty.
The school staff respected the students desire to religious freedom, as long as the students did not try and sell their beliefs to other people. Other students would join as they "silently heard" about this group of students.
I think the schools can become "anti-religious" because they are afraid of stepping on someones' toes, so they just do away with it all together in order to save their own assets.
Its that simple. If you don't want to pick and choose, you just do away with it all together.
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Legend
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OK lets go with 1925
http://www.schoolprayerinamerica.info/
I best part of this article IMO states "The following pages will show you how the courts removed Bible reading (teaching moral values), School Prayer and the Ten Commandments from our schools. The claim is made by the ACLU that these violate the Constitution, but then why did the founding fathers have, Bible reading, School Prayer and the Ten Commandments in their schools? Did they not understand their own Constitution? "
Ok, but why does the Bible HAVE TO be the moral teachings? Can't they teach morals some other way?
I'm Catholic and I have good morals but I'm hardly serious about it due to how behind the times Catholicism is, I prefer to use my own moral code and IMO it's worked pretty well.
Religion isn't supposed to change because the times have changed. I have a problem with that sentiment. We are supposed to change are ways and serve GOD, not the other way around. I honestly think this line of thinking has led some to have disbelief in GOD.
I agree with that. Saying the religion should change with the times is an immature approach, and obviously lacking a true understanding of what faith means.
It's fine not to believe in a certain religion but don't foolishly expect them to change to suit your needs. That's beyond self-centered and shallow.
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Legend
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Because science has shown it IS a fairy tale, and it's a responsibility for the science teachers in schools to teach what scientists have learned over years of reasearch. It's not like this theory came overnight...there's evidence everywhere supporting it.
As far as I'm concerned, the 7 days from the Bible is a metaphor for the big bang theory. 7 phases over millions of years until we evolved into homo sapiens. BUT, in religion's defense, it took a higher power to cause the whole thing to evolve. It just sounds logical and makes sense.
Could you be right??? Maybe, could you be wrong? Maybe. The truth is neither of us know for a FACT. To teach one as a fact, and one as a fairy tale is just wrong.
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As for a commandment that's out of date? "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife." It's obviously morally questionable if not deplorable, but if two people find themselves in love...why not? There's too many shades of grey to say it's right or wrong.
110 percent bull crap IMO. It's wrong, and I think even you know deep down it's wrong.
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Religion's main problem is that it has not kept up with the advances of social and technological change. They can say our country's moral fiber is decaying, I say we're being enlightened.
You mean like Adam and Eve were enlightened Is see it as there are way to many snakes running loose these days, and way to many people wanting to enjoy the pleasures of the flesh.
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EDIT: But the beautiful thing is religion CAN be adapted with the times, it just needs to be done better. The Vatican sure as hell isn't doing it.
So what happens if people start thinking that murder is OK, should religion change to agree 
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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Legend
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I do see a very reasonable view as to why we should keep religion out of our schools. There are too many Religions and religious beliefs within our nation to pray or teach without "inflicting one religious viewpoint" on those of other faiths. Both Jules and another poster touched on this. All Religions do not even believe in "praying the same way or to the same God". Even within "Christianity" itself, there are so many variables from one denomination to the other, that our children may have beliefs and prayers that go against their very beliefs basicly crammed down their throats. But on the flip side, I agree in principal with some of what DC has said. And I do believe that there is a "happy medium". Why is it okay to teach "one theory" in our schools, without teaching "two theories" in our schools? Is not evolution also a "theory"? In actuality, the "big bang theory" very much aligns itself with Biblical teachings to one extent or another. IMO- If our educational system can teach the "theory" of evolution, then why can it not also include the "theory" of creation? Both are theories that are accepted, practiced and a large part of our society. It recognizes no one religion, God or teachings of a "singular relgion". So I agree that "Religion per say" should not be practiced or taught in our schools, I do believe that the "theory" that much of our population believes in, should not be exluded. However, that is what I consider to be a "moderate view" which will not be accepted from either extreme on this issue. 
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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