DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum 2006 Draft Class

[color:"orange"]Savage got bad reviews for his first draft here in Cleveland, but some of the 2006 draft class seems to be doing pretty damn good thus far into the season....

Kamerion Wimbley - has 5.5 sacks and just keeps getting better each week, he has lived up to his hype thus far <img src="/images/graemlins/azzangel.gif" alt="" />
D'Qwell Jackson - starting ILB, has played well considering he's learning a new defense, third on the team in tackles.
Leon Williams - played great in the "Spy" role vs Mike Vick, has been a strong special teams performer this year.

but, those guys are all defensive players...

Why havent guys like Harrison, Sowells and Wilson enjoyed the same success? Does this speak to Phil Savage being better at evaluating talent and projecting defensive players? Remember, Savage played a large role in the scouting and the building of that Baltimore D. Does it speak towards his philosophy? Or does it speak to RAC involvement?

I think he's done a fair job with his defensive additions, he's had a few misses (Perkins comes to mind), but can Savage bring in the offensive players need to win?

Any thoughts?[/color]

If you look back at Savage's drafts in Baltimore, it consisted of great D drafts with very weak Offensive drafts, especially at the qb and wr positions.

I can't believe Wilson hasn't caught on!!!!

Well, IMO, offense is such a tough thing to draft for anyway, let alone when there isn't a ton of talent already on that side of the ball.

It seems to me that when you draft DL and LBs, they pretty much have to figure out the speed of the game and then the plays. After that, they can just rely on their instincts and athleticism. After all, defense is pretty much go to a spot and tackle the guy with the ball if he's there/cover the guy if he's there.

Offense, though, involves a lot more subtle intricacies, especially at places like WR, QB and OL. You are just about to do something when you see the defense shift, so you have a split second to change what you're going to do, and you have to make sure that everyone else on the offense knows you're going to do it, and you have to make sure you can do it without leaving a hole or a gap.

RB is a little different to me, since it seems they have to know the plays, get the ball, and then just do what they've always been doing (e.g. running fast/hard).

So, IMO, while both sides of the ball have to learn the speed of the game and the plays, the offensive side has a lot more stuff to learn, and I think the learning curve for most offensive positions is a lot longer than for defensive players.

JMHO

Pretty interesting point... and to add to it, even Hamilton has seen time (went out with injury on Sunday <img src="/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> ). I think BE is the only offensive draft pick to see the field so far.

That said, the bulk of our high picks have been on the defense, and it seems that it is easier for rookie/young defensive players to get the "speed of the game" than an offensive player. So, I would take a hefty grain of salt with any conclusion you reach from this.

It's easier for a rookie defensive player to pick up the game than for a offensive player..hence the old attage.."BUY OFFENSE, DRAFT DEFENSE".
I think Phil did o.k with his offensive picks, they just have to learn certain things.
Harrison has to improve his blocking...Vickers..well they just have to use him in the proper manner.
Now Wilson was brought in for the future and there really isn't a need to rush him..but I would like to see him get some reps.
Sowells was redshirted for this year to start in 07 but I still would like to see him and see if he's got it also.

Overall : Not impressed with Savage draft prowess at all ! ... Given who was on the board when we picked .. Wimbley looks like he is going to come through for Phil ( and the team ) .. Phil & RAC. have a plan for building the Browns .. Mine would have been very different .. It is still a little to early to make a final evaluation . I think 2007 is critical for Savage & Company <img src="/images/graemlins/rolleyes1.gif" alt="" /> .. Hey just my opinion ! <img src="/images/graemlins/naughtydevil.gif" alt="" />

Once again, everyone can have an opinion, but yours is completely wrong. <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I agree, though, that the 2007 draft is going to really be telling for this FO. We have some obvious problems on our offensive line and our defensive line isn't getting any younger. If they look at another position in the first and second rounds, I'll be very surprised and upset, unless some freakin' stud just happens to fall to us.

But, I don't know who that would be.

[color:"red"] Not impressed with Savage draft prowess at all ! ... Given who was on the board when we picked .. Wimbley looks like he is going to come through for Phil ( and the team ) .. Phil & RAC. have a plan for building the Browns .. Mine would have been very different .. [/color]

Of course yours is different..I had several mocks..one had Ngata the other had Wimbley..I didn't have DQ on either even though I knew he was the best rated ILB.
I had McNeil/Joseph/Spencer as my linemen
WimbleyTapp/Dumervil as my main targets for OLB/ILB.
For ILB on my second mock I think I had either Wilkerson/Parham
For NT I had either Nagata/ Stanley/ Cofield/Osh as NT's.
RB's I had Addai/Norwood..so it would have been different for me also.
The seventh rounder Hamilton I had dead on.
So it was different but I still liked Phil's draft..this one targeted the weak holes.
I had three players right-Wimbley/Osh/Hamilton..so not bad for me. <img src="/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

2005
Edwards- best downfield blocker on the team. best natuarl athlete on the offense. the last few weeks he is improving on the crispness of his routes. Hands are the big ??? Receivers it generally takes 3 years to go from signs of promise to stud receiver. I hope he is having a sophomore slump

Pool- Thought he was a total bust waiting to happen but its easy to forget just how young he is. He is playing linebacker, safety and corner. Would be the defensive MVP if not for Jones playing lights out. He will replace Russell next year and Russell is having a good year.

Frye- for a 3rd round QB i dont think we can complain. Another offseason under his belt and we will know more. Hearing he was out there working after practice on his timing and accuracy every day last week, makes one believe the kid will succede.

2006
Wimbley- improving every week. Being held on most plays. He needs to get 8-10 sacks in order to get those calls. Best improvement is playing the run. He made a couple plays last week against Dunn that should a lot of maturity and for a guy that was one of the absolute worst run stuffers, that says a lot. Another offseason and look out folks

DQ- Outstanding year. Its not about tackles but controlling your lanes and he has done that for the most part. Another offseason and he should be fine. Would like to see him get a bit bigger and react a tad quicker but i cant complain.

lol Hell go back to 2004 draft and noone is going to complain with Jones and Winslow now <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> BTW I still think McCown will be a good QB in this league.

Anyway Butch had his best draft in 2004, Phil has followed it up with 2 decent drafts. Those are the players of the future. Throw in Leigh Bodden and we are beginning to see that core group of young players in Cleveland.

One more note Minter and Babatunde are gonna shock people. I thought both were worth early 2nd round consideration. Baba is working his butt off to get into better physcial condition. Minter is recovering and we may see him in the game soon. 2006 draft could go down as one of those special classes.

[color:"white"]

There it is, plain and simple.

It's still too early to judge Savage at all. Afterall, we're just now seeing production from Butch Davis's last draft, and this is his 2nd season removed. [/color]

Three years. It takes about three years to evaluate a draft class. A rare few stand out before that time frame. Our first and third rounders from last year are starting and the second rounder is starting regularly and playing a lot. Our first and second rounders from this year are starting. That's not too bad.

There have been some misses, to be sure. But that's going to happen. Some guys look great in college and just can't adjust to the pro game.

Think about next season. If guys like Sowells, Harrison, and Wilson step up and claim important roles on the Browns, it'll be like adding three additional draft picks to next year's selections.

Wow Mav, I hadn't thought about it that way.. But you may be on to something there..

But I want to be fair, how much of that lack of success and playing time for guys like Harrison or Sowells or Wilson can be attributed to Mo not wanting to play rookies? Does anyone think that's possible at all...

I mean, look at last season with Edwards.. How much playing time to Edwards get in the first couple of games.... Not much! My god, he was the third pick in the draft....

I hate tossing dirt on Mo,, heck he's gone and that's that. But all I know for sure is that we are 2-1 since he's been gone and while that may not be enough games to determine for sure if Mo was the culprit, I'd say that all indications are that he was.

Remember, I'm one of the dumb ones that wanted us to stay the course and not fire Mo until the end of the season. When I'm wrong, I'll admit it and I was dead wrong about the Mo must Go thing.

[color:"white"]

D, it's all tied together.

RAC doesn't like to play rooks on offense because it's far harder to pick up than defense.

It's all relative. [/color]

Good point.

In Savage's last press conference, he was trying to drive home his point that even second and third round picks generally don't develop into starters for 2 to 3 years - not to mention second day picks.

Some people think that when you pick a guy in the 6th round that he should be on the field or he's a bust. I never understood that line of thinking. Is it because the exceptions get the press? Don't know.

We also have to remember that Savage is sometimes having to look beyond just our talent today, but also contract/cap situations over the longer term. "Need" can be a more complex definition than we realize sometimes. If he doesn't look 3 or more years out when making these personnel/contract decisions, he won't be around very long.

Pool is slowly but surely becoming the most improved player on defense.

If he can take the same leap next year that Sean Jones made this year...damn dude. We may end up with the best safety tandem in the NFL.

[color:"red"]Some people think that when you pick a guy in the 6th round that he should be on the field or he's a bust. [/color]

Or if rookie doesn't IMMEDIATELY BEAT out the starter he is abust..
I know who that describes..PEEN <img src="/images/graemlins/rofl.gif" alt="" />

[color:"orange"]To no one imparticular at all...

I'm firmly behind Savage and think he's done an excellent job in his short time in Cleveland, this is in no way meant to bash him. [/color]

[color:"orange"]I'm on board with this statement...

Pool is rapidly making Russell expendable, Pool is just so much more athletic. [/color]

I agree in principal, but I'm not sure if it'll work out that way. Could be more of a numbers question, but I think Hamilton might have a better chance up unseating Russell, if anything.
Pool just might be too valuable to stick at a safety position. Not many players can create the match-up problems that he does in so many different areas.

Kids playing practically every position except nose tackle. Maybe if he bulks up a bit... <img src="/images/graemlins/saywhat.gif" alt="" />

Anyway - just wondering if he's too valuable doing what he's doing now.

[color:"orange"]I like the way you think...

I do like Hamiliton, but if we have a chance to get Pool on the field as a every down player, I think we need to do it...

Only place else I'd like to see him full time would be CB, if given time he'd be one helluva CB, with that size and athleticism opposite Bodden every Sunday... [/color] <img src="/images/graemlins/saywhat.gif" alt="" />

I agree. Pool can (and does) play just about anywhere on the field. He's strong enough to play OLB, fast enough to play CB......I mean, he did a hell of a job of just blanketing one of the leagues best TE's in Crumpler (who had 14 catches, over 200 yards recieving and 5 TD's in his 3 games leading up to sunday.)

I personally think Brodney is more valuable (especially right now) as a "rover" (SS, FS, Nickle Back, CB, OLB) because Russell is still a capable player in the secondary. Just move Pool all over the field throughout the game and use the young buck to create some mismatches. When Russell really starts to slow down then I think you consider settling Pool in to the safety position, untill then use him anywhere you can.

[color:"red"] I agree in principal, but I'm not sure if it'll work out that way. Could be more of a numbers question, but I think Hamilton might have a better chance up unseating Russell, if anything.
[/color]
While Pool has been played at OLB/CB in certain situations his primary position is FS..I still would lean toward him being a starter there and Hamilton almost playing that role in the future as Pool is doing now.
Or having Pool move around and Hamilton play FS..actually he seems more suited to play SS..behind Jones.
We have to rememebr Rac is trying to mimick what they did in NE..their DB's played various positions in addition to their natural spots.
I like it..it adds to the scheme and flexibiltity.

Hmmm... I seem to remember seeing that Frye kid out there a few times. <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

In all fairness, Phil came in to this job without knowing what the team needed and having to round up a team of scouts in short notice when he first got hired. As the last draft has shown (so far) he's more aware of what our positional weaknesses are, and he went out and filled alot of them. I think in the next few years, we'll really be seeing the fruits of a stable (cross your fingers) FO showing up in the quality of our drafts. JMHO <img src="/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif" alt="" />

[color:"red"]"Savage got bad reviews for his first draft here in Cleveland, but some of the 2006 draft class seems to be doing pretty damn good thus far into the season...."

[color:"orange"]Actually I don't remember any bad reviews??? Anyway the 05 draft class was not a strong one I'm happy we got good things going with the day one guys all 3 look to be strong parts of our team for years...and lets face it thats refreshing.

A weak draft class and we got all 3 day ones looking good...ahead of the curve.

As for 06.
3rd round Wilson - we have remained healthier than expected and there is no rush, keep also in mind that there are only 2 3rd round starters in the entire NFL. We aren't the exception but the norm.

Wimbley - Stud Extraordinaire <img src="/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif" alt="" />
DQ - starting and getting better.
Leon - very athletic and a solid prospect.
Sowells - RedShirted as Savage says. OL doesn't get a rotation - we'll see but this kid was Davidsons baby - I'm sure he will be given a chance to stud in 07.
Minter - healthy now and was presumed a high first early 2nd round prospect without the injury...hopefully we got a steal
Harrison - has a lot to learn still would like to see more of him in his role.
Vickers - curious as to how important he is to us now that Mo is gone???
Hamilton - good STeamer already good prospect.

Man I can't wait for the 3 years to see how this class progresses.

Hard to assess Savage in 2 classess but I wouldn't say One dimensional (all D no O) keep in mind Sowells, Harrison, Vickers are 2nd day picks they rarely start and Wilson as mentioned is the norm not the exception. We'll see how they work out.
BE n CF ain't doing to bad and as mentioned that was a weak draft class.
JMHO

For this draft, Wilson, Williams and Sowells will make or break the team.

I never had an issue with Wembly or DQ, even though DQ cost us Faine, and Justice was still on the Board, but they are both starting and seem to have good potential.

I would have taken OL in the thrid, most likely Mad Max. I understand the Dropcutt issue, but the same could be stated for Coleman/Andruzzi.

In the fourth, I would have looked at Colefield, Dumervil and Harylson. I did not understand the selection of Sowells, espicially with John Scott on the Board. I thought that Sowells could have been a 5th or 6th rounder (at best).

The Williams selection was puzzling for me as well, as we had just dropped #1 and #2 on LB's. I also see that Adeyjanu is starting for the Rams at DE.

Harrison, Vickers, Minter, Baba and Hamilton are all developmental. My biggest concern is with the underutilization of Harrison. He sparkles during pre-season and disappears in regular season. If a 3rd down back was such a big deal we could have had Norwood in the 3rd.

[color:"red"] Adeyjanu [/color]
Now that was the kid I thought Phil was looking hard at..the evaluation probably showed he wasn't a DE in our scheme.

I raved about this year's defensive rookies back in TC,and I'm not a person that regularily hands out praise.
I wasn't crazy about Wimbley,I didn't think he could become an every down LB.I might have been wrong about that.
I thought Williams would be a better LB than DQ,only because of the size difference.Now I think both of them are going to be very good LBs in the NFL.
Hamilton amazed me with his athleticism and footwork.He will make one of Pool/Jones obselete in a couple years.
I also liked the UDFA,Perry.Tough kid,no one could block him as a gunner.Now that I've learned about his past,I like him even more.Throw in Pool and Mcmillian from the '05 draft,and we've got the foundation of a good D for years to come.
While it may be true that you can't grade a draft for a few years,this '06 class is showing signs,that its going to be exceptional.If that WR and Sowells pan out,it then ranks as one of the best.

Just a few thoughts on this subject:

Edwards is still recovering. He tends to lose his concentration in traffic, especially when he's going to get hit from behind. He's still thinking about his knee.

Savage has done a good job at drafting. In 2 years he's picked up 7 players that are large contributors to the team. Edwards, Frye, Cribbs, Fraser, Holly, Jackson, Pool, Williams, and Wimbly are all Savage pick ups, and they all see a good amount of playing time.

He's done fairly well with assistants and FAs too. We'll just ignore the carthon drama as the one big failure, but Davidson, Grantham, Rosburg, and Tucker are making up for that failure. It does worry me that we might lose one of these guys already, but if the specialist coaches are taught as well as most of the players are, we should be in good shape for a while.

The FAs, with the exception of Bentley, Washington, and the OL have been good. I'm fairly sure RAC had a deal with Washington, and he'll be an assistant DL coach next year. Bentley was just bad karma from somewhere. I guess we can add Baxter into this one, too. I don't think that Jurivicius, McGinnest, and Zastudil quite make up for it, but we'll get Bentley back next season.

I know this is a 2006 Draft thread but I want to add to your statement and mention that even though Cribbs was a UDFA, he really was quite a Gem that Phil got into camp for us..

Another pick to point out through Phil's UDFA's is acquiring Simon Fraser... He is not Booming like Cribbs has for us but he has proven to be more than serviceable and will be a more than capable starter until someone else better comes along...

Jereme Perry is one that may be a riser for us from this years UDFA class and just might turn out to be McCutcheon's replacement....

Phil DEFINITELY has an eye for UDFA and day 2 sleepers...

I am anxious to see just how far Leon Williams progresses into this years late picks...

[color:"orange"]Just a note...Leon is just touching the tip of the iceburg. His upside is tremendous and I got a feeling in 08 everyone is going to be proclaiming Savage as a genius as he comes into his own. <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

JMHO

J/C

People keep ripping on Savage for his first draft- you people need to learn a bit. I'm the first to rip on Edwards, didn't want him - still think he's a bum - HOWEVER:

Edwards - year #2 - takes most WR 3 years to get "it" in the NFL.

Pool - One of our best and most valuable defenders. The guy is always on his man like glue - can hit like a ton of bricks (just ask Baker from the NYJ) and does everything he's asked. The guy is amazing.

Frye - he's our starting QB. in Year 2 of his career - he's been doing a fine job.

Perkins - he missed on that one, big deal.

McMillan - still on the team - learning a new position
Speegle - miss (most posters on here adored him)
Dunn - 7th round miss (duh, most 7th round guys miss)

The others escape me - he also did NOT have his scouting team on the same page yet - it took a year, they are all on the same page - look at what happened in 2006 with them being a smooth operation. Savage did fine in '05 - his true first test in reality is '06 - he assembled his team and got it to run real smoothe and look at what we got now. You guys gettin it yet?

Well, you can add Cribbs and Fraser to the list as well, since they made the team and are contributing.

[color:"orange"]Let's be clear, I did not rip him for his first draft class in Cleveland, but I have seen others take shots on that class...

I think we grabbed a starting QB in the third - which is awesome.
Got a #1 WR - which is awesome.
added a valuable pieces on defense for years to come - /FraserPool.
Got Cribbs - another awesome move. [/color]

I am not going to rip on Frye in this thread but I will add that even IF we go elsewhere with the QB position in the future, we STILL have a more than serviceable QB as our #2 and the expense of a 3rd rd. pick is a much easier pill to swallow than the likes of taking one 1st overall and having them stink it up... IMHO, it is a win win no matter what happens with this team and the position...

[color:"red"]" he also did NOT have his scouting team on the same page yet - it took a year, they are all on the same page - look at what happened in 2006 with them being a smooth operation."

[color:"orange"]Nah Soup - more so to do with the 05 draft class being a weak one.
06 was a very strong one.

As long as we hit on our 1st day picks weak or strong that is good. 06 was an exceptional year...04 was pretty strong as well but top heavy. 06 was very deep.

But Savage was brought here initially not cause of his depth of picks that made it. He was brought here cause of the high success of the 1st day picks made by the Ravens. Which we were lacking tremendously lacking since 99.

04 seems to be the only Non-Savage year that is looking to hit on the first day picks...and KW2 almost did away with that with his Cycle ride and he may never be 100%.

03 Faine and Crocker are starters in the NFL but on the low end.
02 heck our first two picks might not even be in football anymore WG n Dre Fowler again is a low end starter for now.
01 Warren starting for Denver but still underproductive for an overall #3 QM special teamer, JJackson is out of football.

So actually Butch wasn't too bad his last 2 seasons...03 as least there are low level starters there and 04 the 2 can be Pro-Bowlers <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

But the strength if anything is that 04 class which as was mentioned was a very strong class.

JMHO - that has a lot to do with success and I guess the key is to be successful on the first day of weak drafts! So far so good. <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I'll help finish it out for ya Soup.
You only forgot one pick, Keggar' LOL ( Andrew Hoffman ) sixth round pick from Tampa in a trade for Luke McCown.
I personally liked the VERY raw Luke, so it hurts that Keggar didn't work out, but he was a 6th round pick behind Speegle.
So Savage missed on 4th, 6a, 6b and 7th. the only problem there is Perkins who I think is an anamoly to us all. What the heck happened with that kid? Did he ever even sniff the field? I think you nailed it with Pool, Frye, and McMillian. As for braylon, IMHO, No matter what happens there, lets not forget, the entire country was pretty much in agreement that he was a STUD and should be top three pick.

I thought that was what Soup was saying, eo. I think u 2 agree on that.


Very true. The biggest problem w/ Butch was that he refused to follow a system (like over riding the Warren pick). Decisions like that will never allow you to draft well consistently. Stick w/ your system. If it doesn't work, fix the system - don't start guessing.