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Roll to every station, murder the DJ....
Hip hop just died this mornin'
And she's dead, she's deeeeaaaaaddddd
Wise words spoken by sages
From SkyTel to BlackBerry pagers
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Legend
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There have always been elements of rock that have shared the same traits that many talk about with regard to rap .......
Drug songs ...... sex songs ....... violent songs ....... songs about using women ..... songs about breaking laws ...... foul language .......
As far as the "B" word ..... well ..... Buck Cherry has a song "Crazy Bitch" that was at the top of the alternative charts recently ..... with a lot of airplay.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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I think its fairly safe to say that you know nothing about hip-hop. You don't like it, therefore you seek to discredit it through tired stereotypes.
I like rap a lot---I don't listen to it all the time, but I do occasionally---and I am very specific about what I feel is a redeeming rap song.
I wish to wash my Irish wristwatch......
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Dawg Talker
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So other forms of music that are played promote violence, lawlessness, calling women the B word and worse?
Well, yes. Punk, metal, ska just to name a few.
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People claimed rock n roll was the devil's music in the 50s. Now people say that hip hop is evil in the 2000s.
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So the message of Rock & Roll in the 50's promoted killing, robbing and once again, derrogitory in a very sexual way towards women? Sure..................
You misunderstand me Pit. I'm saying it was viewed in the same way...not that it had the same content. Rock n roll was viewed as "the devil's music" by older generations at its advent. Saying it promoted promiscuity and lawlessness...saaaaay, that rings a bell.
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And you know what? In many cases "outside of this forum", people just don't care anymore if rappers kill the hell out of each other. Good ridence to bad rubbish. But you see, many on this board have children and grandchildren.
So we don't like such putrid, ill advised, and talent depleted noise crammed down their throats.
I AM a parent so please don't play the high n mighty card with me. And if my daughter wants to listen to rap music when she gets older, then so be it. I believe that I am, and will do, a good enough job as a parent that she will grow up to be an incredible women, regardless of whatever music she listens to or is exposed to.
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Well the talent level of "the music" as you call it is quite poor. All it really is, is a beat with a bunch of negative and detrimental lyrics.
You can "claim" all you want. But other forms of music do NOT include killing cops and promote felonious behavior. Case closed.
YOU perceive the talent level to be poor because you don't like the music. And I'm the first to admist, there is alot of crappy hip hop out there....just the same as there's a bunch of other bad music out of other genres. But there's some very good stuff as well...some of it gets air play, some of it doesn't.
If you don't believe that other music types have violent or "law breaking" content, that's your prerogative to stick your head in the sand. If you'd like examples, I'm sure there's various people on the board that can pull stuff up for you.
Looking back on this thread, it seems to me that there's a clash of ideas between younger dawgtalkers and older. Which, in my mind, is just fine and dandy. The younger generation is supposed to challenge the conventions of the older. Pit and USNavy likely did the same to the older generation when they were in their hey-day.
But really, Pit, the grumpy old man bit doesn't suit you. Debate is well and good and I know you can be quite good at it. But there's no reason to look down your nose at younger members of the board. Specifically, I'd ask you not to do it of me as I am NOT some punk kid. I'm a man, a father, a member of the workforce and you know what....a fan of hip hop.
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Going back to whoever killed Biggie and 2 pac. They killed eachother. Plain and simple. They built up an industry that was defined by East-West hate. Someone said one thing and it continued to go back and forth and it escalated until 2 icons of my generation were killed.
As far as the music itself, hip hop is dead. The music today is absolutley horrible, there is nothing clever about the lyrics. Whatever happened toa time when you actually listened to a hip hop song and thought to yourself, hmmm that was clever. Jurrasic 5, Blackalicious, Krs One, just to name a few. Today its all about bling blingin and how much ice you're sporting.
People hated the music of the roaring twenties, they called it the downfall of society. People hated the music of the 60's and 70's, they called it the downfall of society. People hate gangsta rap and what comes out today, they call it the downfall of society. I wonder what music I will see as the downfall of society in 20-30 years?
President - Fort Collins Browns Backers
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Legend
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People hated the music of the roaring twenties, they called it the downfall of society. People hated the music of the 60's and 70's, they called it the downfall of society. People hate gangsta rap and what comes out today, they call it the downfall of society. I wonder what music I will see as the downfall of society in 20-30 years?
It's hard to say whether music follows culture or culture follows music but if you look at the music down through the years, I won't get into which is better or worse, but it's hard to argue that it has become more violent, more explicit, raunchier, nastier, more vulgar... so perhaps each group was right in their own small little way...
Heck I listen to a lot of country and I know a lot of people do because they say the stories relate directly to their lives... well I guess those people drink way too much, cheat on their spouses, seek vigilante justice, etc... because that's what a lot of the songs are about...
yebat' Putin
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I believe alot of it comes from how much more open this country has become.
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Legend
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I believe each generation just seeks to push the envelope of the previous generation... it's been that way for thousands of years.
yebat' Putin
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And envelope's are light! so you can push them pretty far 
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I listen to Led Zeppelin and Hendrix. A lot of 70s/80s rock as well VAN HALEN! The death of Hip Hop wouldnt effect me at all! 
With the New regime starting in Cleveland. It is key that the Browns draft Taylor Mays. He fits our scheme and is one of the best safeties I have seen
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Legend
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You misunderstand me Pit. I'm saying it was viewed in the same way...not that it had the same content.
And there in lies the difference that many find to be so disturbing. That IS the very point of why so many oppose rap.
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Rock n roll was viewed as "the devil's music" by older generations at its advent. Saying it promoted promiscuity and lawlessness...saaaaay, that rings a bell.
Once again, it did not promote killing cops or crime and violence as a "lifestyle" no matter how you wish to rationalise it.
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And you know what? In many cases "outside of this forum", people just don't care anymore if rappers kill the hell out of each other. Good ridence to bad rubbish. But you see, many on this board have children and grandchildren.
So we don't like such putrid, ill advised, and talent depleted noise crammed down their throats.
I AM a parent so please don't play the high n mighty card with me. And if my daughter wants to listen to rap music when she gets older, then so be it. I believe that I am, and will do, a good enough job as a parent that she will grow up to be an incredible women, regardless of whatever music she listens to or is exposed to.
Guess what? I have grandchildren too. And there are "some rap artists" that they are permited to listen to and some they are not based on "the content". Problem being? They complain they aren't listenning to "the popular" rap. Why? Because murder and violence, especialy towards women, is not a proper message for ANY CHILD to be listenning to or hear "promoted".
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Well the talent level of "the music" as you call it is quite poor. All it really is, is a beat with a bunch of negative and detrimental lyrics.
You can "claim" all you want. But other forms of music do NOT include killing cops and promote felonious behavior. Case closed.
YOU perceive the talent level to be poor because you don't like the music. And I'm the first to admist, there is alot of crappy hip hop out there....just the same as there's a bunch of other bad music out of other genres. But there's some very good stuff as well...some of it gets air play, some of it doesn't.
Not quite valid. 
I read music and have written music. The talent level is VERY poor overall. And yes, the same could be said for many Rock Bands as well. BTO, AC/DC, KISS and many others were no more than three chords singing about sex, drugs and rock & roll. But once again, the content was not promoting killing robbing and the abuse of others in "almost" every case. Modern day poets? Maybe. Music? Not even close for the most part. It takes more than "a beat" to constitute music.
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If you don't believe that other music types have violent or "law breaking" content, that's your prerogative to stick your head in the sand. If you'd like examples, I'm sure there's various people on the board that can pull stuff up for you.
We're not speaking of "social ideas" that are a matter of law. We are talking about the promotion of murder and cruelty of women. Wandering away from the overwhelming advocation of violence in rap does nothing to address the reality of it.
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Looking back on this thread, it seems to me that there's a clash of ideas between younger dawgtalkers and older. Which, in my mind, is just fine and dandy. The younger generation is supposed to challenge the conventions of the older.
So promoting murder, shootings and violence against women isn't "wrong", it's just "unconventual"?
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Pit and USNavy likely did the same to the older generation when they were in their hey-day.
Yes, I liked some music my dad didn't like. But it didn't promote me getting a gun and shooting people. You seriously can't see or won't admit the difference?
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But really, Pit, the grumpy old man bit doesn't suit you. Debate is well and good and I know you can be quite good at it. But there's no reason to look down your nose at younger members of the board.
I don't "look down my nose" at them. But it does puzzle me how such intelligent young people can be sucked into promoting such an illogical message that encourages our youth to violence, even to the point of killing.
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Specifically, I'd ask you not to do it of me as I am NOT some punk kid. I'm a man, a father, a member of the workforce and you know what....a fan of hip hop.
Well more power to you. If you feel helping promote such a message with your hard earned money is the thing to do, while I find that to be totaly illogical, it's well within your God given right to do so.
But first, you might wish to look at some of our inner cities. The music they listen to and emmulate that is the very essence of many of societies woes. An informed decision is usally the basis for sound decisions.
JMHO
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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We are talking about the promotion of murder and cruelty of women
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Nope, that's what you're talking about. And that's labelling a genre of music due to some groups that got very bad press a decade ago.
But there's more to hip-hop music than 2 Live Crew and NWA.
I think that's where the gap is here. You have this idea that all rap is about murder and guns. I'm telling you there is FAR more than this and, in fact, that the majority of it does not have violence as a predominant theme.
If you choose not to believe me, then so be it.
As to rap music having negative social consequence, I think one has to look at the larger media picture than just a form of music.
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As to rap music having negative social consequence, I think one has to look at the larger media picture than just a form of music.
Your right.
The rap is just a by-product, it is the people behind the rap that is a negative social consequence.
[b]USNavyDawg (Ret.) ![[Linked Image from i87.photobucket.com]](http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k155/brownsfan4173/NFL-Football.jpg)
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Nope, that's what you're talking about. And that's labelling a genre of music due to some groups that got very bad press a decade ago.
It's not that I'm attempting to label a "genre".
But I DO know what sells the most and what is glorified the most by the majority of our youth who buy such music. There is a difference.
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I think that's where the gap is here. You have this idea that all rap is about murder and guns. I'm telling you there is FAR more than this and, in fact, that the majority of it does not have violence as a predominant theme.
Most of "what's out there"? Or most of what is being "bought and perpetuated"? Once again, there is a difference.
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If you choose not to believe me, then so be it.
As to rap music having negative social consequence, I think one has to look at the larger media picture than just a form of music.
I believe it is more "the industry" than the "media picture". The media reports what sells. They are not the one's "buying the product". And the industry pushes what sells. And, those IN the industry shot rivals based on coastal divides. It is what it is.
But I do like The Pussycat Dolls!
I do understand that not "all rap is bad". As a matter of fact, since you know far more about this than I do, I believe that "most of it" may very well not be that bad. That was not my intention. But unfortunately, it's "the bad part" that sells and that our youth seems drawn to. IMO, there in lies the problem.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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Really? So other forms of music that are played promote violence, lawlessness, calling women the B word and worse? Their artists are killing each other over some STUPID "west coast/east coast rap war"?
Oh yeah, it's just like the other genres...............
Holy cow bro, the whole East Coast/West Coast thing was about 12 years ago. That garbage has been done for a LONG time. 
And although the content of SOME of hip hop is questionable, it really is just music.
Just like a movie is just a movie. It's a form of entertainment, whether you like it or not. Not everyone likes gangster flicks or dramas or love stories. It's all on your preferences. I dislike country music and that speed metal garbage, but that's just me. Everyone has their own thing.
![[Linked Image from pic18.picturetrail.com]](http://pic18.picturetrail.com/VOL905/3216203/6567769/349897772.jpg) "The Browns' defense is kicking mucho dupa."
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Ah yes got to love the discussions on Hip Hop. I never get tired of hearing the old folks come out and bash it for being a talentless non-musical practice. They can't play the guitar so it isn't music seems to basically be the logic to me. Well it's complete garbage.
I'm open enough to realize the talent in all sorts of music. And Hip-Hop is definitely talent, and it is definitely music. Music is defined as this- "an art of sound in time that expresses ideas and emotions in significant forms through the elements of rhythm, melody, harmony, and color." And Hip Hop does all that. Therefore it's music and that's fact, you can have your opinions but that doesn't mean they're right and in this case they most certainly aren't.
Now some on here will try to make you believe that Hip-Hop is the only form of music "promoting" murder, crime and slandering women. These people also probably don't listen to hip hop.First hip hop isn't promoting any of it, if you grew up in the same places some of the artist did, such as the South Bronx in the 70's-80's that's all one would know. That's why early in his career KRS-ONE (GOAT along with Nas) rapped about meeting a crack dealer by the name of Peter who he had to buck down with his 9mm. That's what he grew up seeing, that's what he lived, as Chuck D said Hip Hop is the CNN of the ghetto. But KRS was in no means promoting killing, in fact he's the same guy that rapped "Stop the violence in hip hop". After all if they were promoting it that means they liked the life, and if they liked the life so much how come they're trying to make money to move out of the neighborhoods. Sure hip hop has become commercialized and some of the stuff on the radio is overdoing it, but those rappers are simply doing it for the money not for the love of the art-form that hip hop is. And you know what, it's rich corporate america that determines what songs are going to be played by the big record labels. So if we're going to cut out anything cut out the rich ceo who doesn't understand what hip hop is meant to be, and you'll see a huge reduction in some of the garbage that's out now! Basically what I'm saying is for every song out there that slanders women there is also a "Brown Skin Lady" or a "Keep Ya Head Up".
And saying Hip Hop is the only music talking about crime and slandering women is just dumb. A very talented country artist once sang "I shot a man in Reno just to watch him die" now that right there is as cold blooded a lyric as there has been in music history. So why isn't everyone jumping all over country. My favorite musical artists and Willie Dixon once sang "I eat more chicken then any man ever seen." That's not exactly respecting women. Bottom line is these things have been in music forever and will be forever because they're part of the darker side of human nature. We as people aren't perfect why do you expect the music to be?
![[Linked Image from img339.imageshack.us]](http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/4044/changerd3.jpg) Eric "Easy E" Wright and KW2- Bringing the attitude back to Browns football
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I guess one could say it boils down to evolution. Darwin!
I'll leave it at that.
[b]USNavyDawg (Ret.)
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Thank you Mojo, good points you brought out. Sadly those folks that think they are always right and never wrong won't agree with your post. We all have opinions on what we call music. I call country music the crap bone of american music. Like you said about lyrics being violent in all different genre's. If you listen to music from the 50's and 60's and listen to the lyrics of them, you will be surprised by their meanings. Lucy In The Sky With Diamonds, Hey Jude just to name TWO songs by the Beatles that are about drugs. Another line from a Beatles song, "I get high with a little help from my friends". Not to be outdone, I do believe that The Rolling Stones did a song about mother's little helper and it was talking about a child being that little helper. Then there's I Shot The Sherriff, but in the disclaimer, he didn't shoot the deputy. I listen to alot of different genre's of music and within the genre of rap or hip hop there are different artists and styles to pick and choose from. If you don't like the hard core kill em all rap, then you can CHOOSE not to listen to it. I CHOOSE not to listen to country music because so much of it is the same......but I have been caught by a few different country artists that have crossed over to the pop charts that get air play on a non country music station. Each person has a choice in their music and my only comment is don't try to PUSH YOUR TASTES OF MUSIC ON ME AND I WON'T PUSH MY TASTE IN MUSIC ON YOU. *edited with an after thought* There is a song from the late 60's early 70's can't remember the guy's name but the song is called "Indiana Wants Me" and in that song he sings about being on the run from the law and how there is a warrent in Indiana for him for I believe murder. (and this is a ROCK song)
Last edited by atomic_dog; 05/21/08 09:54 AM.
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Ah yes got to love the discussions on Hip Hop. I never get tired of hearing the old folks come out and bash it for being a talentless non-musical practice. They can't play the guitar so it isn't music seems to basically be the logic to me.
Music is played by musicians. Poetry is written by poets.
Unless of course you're trying to rationalize the talent level. Then everybody wishes to muddy the waters.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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j/c
Some people involved in hip hop are VERY talented. Because a lot of it isn't played with an actual instrument doesn't mean it's not true music. Anyone who believes in that is an idiot.
Some hip hop does use instruments as well. A lot of producers are talented and produce multiple artists in multiple genres outside of hip hop, including R&B and rock. You hear things differently when you're not interested in something.
I listen to a variety of music. I'll flip thru my satellite radio, put on some rock stations, and shut it off because a lot of it will sound the same and drab. Why? Because I'm just not interested in it.
I still listen to hip hop. I listened to nothing but rap growing up in high school and most of college, then started picking up some other sounds. I don't listen to it non-stop like I used to, so my scope of listening has narrowed. But there are many talented people in hip hop, especially outside some of the mainstream, and then you have the stereotypes by those people who nothing about the music. Of course you won't recognize it. You don't want to.
"The Browns' defense is kicking mucho dupa."
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Some people involved in hip hop are VERY talented. Because a lot of it isn't played with an actual instrument doesn't mean it's not true music. Anyone who believes in that is an idiot.
Sorry, but I had a nice Yamaha drum and bass machine that could do most everything I hear these kids listen to. It would take all of about 10 minutes to set up.
Of course I didn't call what that machine did "a song" or "music".
I called it "the base line" and "percussion part" of the music and song. Big difference. Maybe if I had no experience in this department I might buy such tripe.
I'm sure there ARE "some" very talented people in the genre. But as you have elded to, you hardly ever hear it. Because the "message" of violence is what's saling, not "the talent".
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Some hip hop does use instruments as well. A lot of producers are talented and produce multiple artists in multiple genres outside of hip hop, including R&B and rock. You hear things differently when you're not interested in something.
When I hear "music", I percieve it as such. Having written and having the ability to read music, I fully understand the talent, musical content and talent needed to produce such.
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But there are many talented people in hip hop, especially outside some of the mainstream, and then you have the stereotypes by those people who nothing about the music. Of course you won't recognize it. You don't want to.
As I said, I'm not saying there "is no talent in Hip Hop". What I am saying is that the cream isn't rising to the top, just the scum for the most part.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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So basically to you electronica, techno and dance aren't "music" either. And there are several rock-type bands who use synth in their sounds as well. But I'm sure that's different, right?
"The Browns' defense is kicking mucho dupa."
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Sorry, but I had a nice Yamaha drum and bass machine that could do most everything I hear these kids listen to. It would take all of about 10 minutes to set up.
When are you gonna start pushing out some material----if you are so proficient making beats, then you should look to capitalize off your skills. Cuz obviously its so easy to do. In the meantime I'll be reading The Source waiting on them to publish a Funkmaster Pitdawg article.
Also, just a question---do you consider rap that uses live instrumentation as music? Do you consider jungle/trance/DnB/techno music?
I wish to wash my Irish wristwatch......
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Personally the Music in Hip Hop culture is Music.
If it can be conceived as music, it can be executed as music, and presented to
an audience in such a way that they will perceive it as music... - Frank Zappa
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Personally the Music in Hip Hop culture is Music.
If it can be conceived as music, it can be executed as music, and presented to
an audience in such a way that they will perceive it as music... - Frank Zappa
Bravo!
Thanks Collector. Nice little quote by one of Rock's most strange indeed.
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And there are several rock-type bands who use synth in their sounds as well. But I'm sure that's different, right?
If it is in "addition" to the music, I see no problem with it. As an "add on effect" to actual music.
But to say a synthesizer in and of itself constitues music? No.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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Personally the Music in Hip Hop culture is Music.
If it can be conceived as music, it can be executed as music, and presented to
an audience in such a way that they will perceive it as music... - Frank Zappa
A cow can be "concieved" as a hog. But the ground beef still won't tast like sausage.
Wheather you "concieve" that cow to be a hog or not, it's still a cow.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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if hip hop should die before i wake,
music might be driven by american idol ? or we could have
concrete tactics, no rabbit in a hat trick.
J5
President - Fort Collins Browns Backers
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[b]USNavyDawg (Ret.)
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If hip hop artists were truly musicians why do they constantly have to take someone else's music and incorporate it into there rhymes? Hip Hop artists lack originality for the most part, thats why you hear others music in their songs, for the most part they are talentless, anyone could rhyme words, it doesn't take a brain surgeon to accomplish such a feat.
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Dawg Talker
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Quote:
Issues.
Did you comprehend what he said? I sure as hell didn't and if thats a form of rap, then he's proved the point that hip hop, rap, lacks talent.
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Quote:
Quote:
Issues.
Did you comprehend what he said? I sure as hell didn't and if thats a form of rap, then he's proved the point that hip hop, rap, lacks talent.
I have no clue what he was jibbering about.
[b]USNavyDawg (Ret.)
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Quote:
If hip hop artists were truly musicians why do they constantly have to take someone else's music and incorporate it into there rhymes? Hip Hop artists lack originality for the most part, thats why you hear others music in their songs, for the most part they are talentless, anyone could rhyme words, it doesn't take a brain surgeon to accomplish such a feat.
Couldn't agree more.
[b]USNavyDawg (Ret.)
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Hall of Famer
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Quote:
Quote:
If hip hop artists were truly musicians why do they constantly have to take someone else's music and incorporate it into there rhymes? Hip Hop artists lack originality for the most part, thats why you hear others music in their songs, for the most part they are talentless, anyone could rhyme words, it doesn't take a brain surgeon to accomplish such a feat.
Couldn't agree more.
A lot of older hip hop used samples. More recently, it seems to be disapperaring. Not a whole lot different than bands or singers remaking a song and cashing in on it, is it?
"The Browns' defense is kicking mucho dupa."
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Dawg Talker
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
If hip hop artists were truly musicians why do they constantly have to take someone else's music and incorporate it into there rhymes? Hip Hop artists lack originality for the most part, thats why you hear others music in their songs, for the most part they are talentless, anyone could rhyme words, it doesn't take a brain surgeon to accomplish such a feat.
Couldn't agree more.
A lot of older hip hop used samples. More recently, it seems to be disapperaring. Not a whole lot different than bands or singers remaking a song and cashing in on it, is it?
The difference being these bands or singers you speak of do not "DESTROY" the original. They also do not give the impression that it is an original.
[b]USNavyDawg (Ret.)
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There is a BIG difference since when bands redo songs written by someone else they change it to fit their sound and usually is a B-Side track. Never do they take the direct beats and riffs to a song, and most of the time bands redo a song to pay homage to those who wrote the original. Thats not what crap artists do, they take the direct sample and incorporate it with silly rhymes. Huge difference, that has no comparison.
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Quote:
If hip hop artists were truly musicians
greatest hip hop BAND ever and they are real musicians
Last edited by The Assassin; 05/26/08 12:04 PM.
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They have to pay a royalty to use the sample and permission from the original artist. I'm sure the original artist(s) don't mind that much or we wouldn't be hearing it.
Like I said, they used samples a lot in early rap, but nowadays you don't really hear any. So you really can't keep using that excuse.
"The Browns' defense is kicking mucho dupa."
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Quote:
greatest hip hop BAND ever
Exactly! and THEY suck!
[b]USNavyDawg (Ret.)
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Whats their group name? Six men straight out of the pen?
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