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Stopping genocide is wrong as opposed to continuing a mission that was started on false pretenses? Interesting, I'd vote the other way, but to each their own...
I love the line about how pulling out of Iraq now does a disservice to those who died there. Let me state, I have great respect for the members of our Armed Forces. However, how does getting more people killed in a mission that would likely take years upon years to handle successfully respect their losses? Now, the attention gets turned to those who want out of there instead of focusing on where it belongs. On the people who got us into that situation with no semblance of an exit strategy.
[color:"green"] "World domination has encountered a momentary setback. Please talk amongst yourselves." Get Fuzzy[/color]
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We stopped genocide by invading Iraq, there is no difference, unless your fooled by words.
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Fact is Obama is ready to put troops in harms way to benefit his own beliefs, and that isn't right.
wow...i cannot believe i just read that from someone backing the Iraq war... 
Browns fans are born with it...
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I find it odd that leaving soldiers in Iraq for "up to 100 years" is supporting them, rather than getting them home.
If setting up long term bases in Iraq brings stability, I'm all for it. We have done the same thing in Germany, Japan, South Korea, etc...
Tell me, what do we do if once we leave, Iran moves in on Iraq? Let them control even more of the worlds oil?
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If it stops a genocide I would support it. My question is, once we oust them, do we stay until things are stable? Or do we cut and run like in Somalia and what Obama wants to do in Iraq?
I know you have someone close to you in and out of Iraq. What does that person think is the right thing to do, and why?
#gmstrong
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Quite possibly, we slowed it, yes. However, stopping genocide was reason #27 for invading. Don't you remember, they had WMD's!!! They were plotting to attack America!!! Hussein had a close relationship with Bin Laden!!! But you're right, it was about stopping genocide...  Honestly, if they presented it in that way, they would have garnered more support internationally. Instead, our administration did its best John Wayne impersonation and went out on its own to fight the wrongs that had been done while the international community sat impotently by.
[color:"green"] "World domination has encountered a momentary setback. Please talk amongst yourselves." Get Fuzzy[/color]
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Wow, you mean that America did what it had to do to protect itself regardless of the opinion of those involved in illegal activities with the country in question? What were we thinking? 
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You mean there was an imminent threat, from Iraq, that we prevented from occurring?
[color:"green"] "World domination has encountered a momentary setback. Please talk amongst yourselves." Get Fuzzy[/color]
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Quite possibly, we slowed it, yes. However, stopping genocide was reason #27 for invading. Don't you remember, they had WMD's!!! They were plotting to attack America!!! Hussein had a close relationship with Bin Laden!!! But you're right, it was about stopping genocide...
Honestly, if they presented it in that way, they would have garnered more support internationally. Instead, our administration did its best John Wayne impersonation and went out on its own to fight the wrongs that had been done while the international community sat impotently by.
There were unaccounted for WMDs.Nobody ever said they were plotting against America (although Saddam did try to assinate a former president). Nobody said Saddam was close to Bin Ladin, just that ahigher up in Al Qeda was being harbored in Iraq. That was pretty much proved to be an exaggeration at best. Saddam killing hundreds of thousands of his own people was brought up, but the UN didn't care. The fact is more then one nation was doing business with Iraq, and they didn't want anything to do with stopping there sweetheart deals. You know, like the whole food for oil program.
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There was intel stating that regardless of Pit and Phil's denial. Were we overzealous? Yes, but in the wake of the attack on us, I understand it. Of course, had we NOT invaded and another attack would have happened, the left would have been calling for Bush's head for NOT invading.
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The US should only be in Darfur if the UN has a military presence.
Like it or not, the role of the UN is to act as an international peacekeeping force. This is not a role for the US.
Welcome back, Joe, we missed you!
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Jungaweed? Oh no! I hope he doesn't make the same mistakes I did in my war against Dandelions and Ground Ivy. Its been many years and I still have no exit strategy   Or as W would say exit strateegery?  If you picture John McCain with a plaid hat and a double barrel shotgun does he not resemble Elmer Fudd hunting wabbits?
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There was intel stating that regardless of Pit and Phil's denial.
Intel that is largely believed to have been made to fit what the Bush administration wanted it to say. Yes, there was that intel readily available. I remember giving a speech in 2002 about the necessity of going into Iraq. I went through the released intel from the CIA as well as the released intel from other countries on Iraq. I was convinced. They had the photos of the places where these things were being stored, stories about how they were hidden in the desert and the like. According to the intel, it probably should have taken less than a month to unearth some nice missiles. Only, when they got there, they were missing. They were then snuck into Lybia and we were going to attack Lybia to prove our intel! Except, Lybia backed down and the story... disappeared. Now, do you honestly want me to believe that these massive hoards of weapons that were reportedly hidden all throughout Iraq were able to disappear without the slightest trace? Or, is it possible, that the threat was greatly exaggerated, whether it be by mistake or coercion?
This administration has taken a bullying approach to foreign policy, and I'm amused by how many people honestly think that it is okay. "If you aren't with us, you're a terrorist" actually became a large part of the Bush policy. Its not okay for an international power, no matter how big, to pull that. Wait, give it 15-20 years and see how it feels on the other end when China is doing it. We're supposed to be an advanced culture and for the past eight years our foreign policy has been, "Play by our rules or we're taking our ball and going home!". Its a fifth-grade mentality and we have people standing up and applauding it... I'm baffled.
I'd be all for taking unilateral action if there was an actual threat. The safety of the county rightfully trumps international policy. But this administration took that approach and extended it to very, very dangerous areas that have set this country back a good deal.
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Of course, had we NOT invaded and another attack would have happened, the left would have been calling for Bush's head for NOT invading.
Where was the attack threat from Iraq? I get Al Queda being an entity that needed to be dealt with. However, their connection in Iraq had been overstated and to deal with that, we pulled troops from Afghanistan, or one of the Al Queda strongholds. I'm all for being in Afghanistan and taking the fight there. I believe that attacking there quite possibly did help prevent future attacks. However, Iraq is a different war that is being said by this administration to fit in the same way and it doesn't. Yeah, there had been some Al Queda members caught there, no doubt. However, its not quite the stronghold that we were led to believe because Hussein wouldn't allow them to have enough power to be a threat to him.
[color:"green"] "World domination has encountered a momentary setback. Please talk amongst yourselves." Get Fuzzy[/color]
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By "largely believed", I understand you are referring to those that make that allegation with no PROOF that anything was made to fit Bush's agenda.
There were no lnks to Al Qaeda in Iraq? What about those terrorist traning camps that were found? I guess it's possible that they were training other terrorists there and not Al Qaelda.
All the stalling and filibustering that Saddam had done, along with his past history of using chemcial weapons added to the recent attack on us led to the actions taken. As I said, had we not acted and been attacked, everyone would be screaming that we didn't do anything.
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There were unaccounted for WMDs.
Because there were none. If you believe this, then the tooth fairy and easter bunny are your friends.
If WMD's had been found, they would have been paraded in front of the whole international community as great big "I told you so"
The pretense for the war was false. When you come to realize that America was misled by the Bush administration into accepting the whole WMD arguement, then you can move on. Granted, I don't know if the motives were pure stupidity or a long harbored grudge, but either way, many people have died as a result, probably more than if Sadam had remained in power.
Welcome back, Joe, we missed you!
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There was intel stating that regardless of Pit and Phil's denial.
No intel exists that asserts with conviction that Hussein was an imminent threat.
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I'll ask you to provide the same proof that I asked Phil and Pit for to PROVE that the Bush administration did anything other than make an executive decision to protect the country. You claim that Bush "misled" us. Prove it. I've said MANY times that there's a difference between being wrong and lying. Quit swallowing all the left spews and actually prove the allegation you made.
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The US should only be in Darfur if the UN has a military presence.
Like it or not, the role of the UN is to act as an international peacekeeping force. This is not a role for the US.
Explain that to Obama, then maybe he will understand the role of the UN, but as of right now, his plans are no different then those of who you hate, ie... Bush. Same goal different continent.
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There was intel stating that regardless of Pit and Phil's denial.
No intel exists that asserts with conviction that Hussein was an imminent threat.
Not today. But did it exist 6 years ago? 7 years ago?
Where some people mess up, in my opinion, is they take todays intel and want to over ride yesterdays intel (or intel from 6,7, 8 years ago). The intel today should be better than it was years ago. Otherwise it's not "intel".
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You're entirely correct, we would all be screaming and yelling. However, our leaders are supposed to have the foresight to avoid these situations and make the correct decision. That goes double for when 4,080 (as of this minute) American lives are at stake on a mission that is questionable to its purpose and possibility of success. Quote:
By "largely believed", I understand you are referring to those that make that allegation with no PROOF that anything was made to fit Bush's agenda.
Absolutely. Unless you call the Senate's investigation into Pre-War Intelligence (reference to wikipedia to save any computer from downloading the PDF, which is substantial) that says
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Most of the major key judgments in the Intelligence Community’s October 2002 National Intelligence Estimate (NIE), Iraq’s Continuing Programs for Weapons of Mass Destruction, either overstated, or were not supported by, the underlying intelligence reporting.
[color:"green"] "World domination has encountered a momentary setback. Please talk amongst yourselves." Get Fuzzy[/color]
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Keep telling yourself that, Phil. I'm sure you'll fall back ont he word "imminent" and play the semantics game. The simple fact is that there WAS intelligence saying that Saddam had access to develop WMDs.
How long should someone wait to satisfy the definition of "imminent"? Should the U.S. wait until the nukes are in the air? Please.
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Bush never misled us, and who is Hans Blister (sp) to tell us otherwise. The inspectors in Iraq were given permission to check out places in the country that were suitable at that time, they didn't pick and choose where they were going, they were TOLD where to go. We did find out though that Iraq abetted terrorists but people want to forget that, but the fact is Obama wants to invade a country that doesn't put our national security in harms way. No war is better then another, but to put our troops in a battle that we don't need to engage in is wrong and that is what the corrupt Obamba wants us to do. Screw him and his agenda, let him strap on a gun and fight, then again this clown never once had a piece of legislation passed so why give him the opportunity now.
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I know you have someone close to you in Iraq. What does that person think is the right thing to do, and why?
They signed a contract and will support and defend the constitution of the United States of America per the commander in chiefs order. Opinion is meaningless when it comes to these issues, and I am damn proud of that.
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Bush never misled us, and who is Hans Blister (sp) to tell us otherwise.
Who are you to say he didn't?
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The inspectors in Iraq were given permission to check out places in the country that were suitable at that time, they didn't pick and choose where they were going, they were TOLD where to go.
After Bush's first threat of action, Hussein ordered full compliance in Spetember of 2002.
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We did find out though that Iraq abetted terrorists but people want to forget that,
We have and continue to do so as well. People also want to forget that.
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but the fact is Obama wants to invade a country that doesn't put our national security in harms way.
The fact is our current president invaded a country that didn't put our national security in harm's way.
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No war is better then another, but to put our troops in a battle that we don't need to engage in is wrong and that is what the corrupt Obamba wants us to do.
Everything you seethe at Obama for is something Bush has done. 
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Screw him and his agenda, let him strap on a gun and fight, then again this clown never once had a piece of legislation passed so why give him the opportunity now.
Man...you hate this guy.
He's a freaking cub, and he's no different from the rest of them outside of his greenness. He will probably not win this election, and if he does...well, I don't really like the guy but it will be a lot better than King Ralph. Heck, any of those three will be...and they're awful.
And let Dick Cheney pick up a gun and fight.
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Not going to quote, but their were numerous threats prior to Bush's reaction, the UN did nothing to stop Iraq until Bush made it clear we were going in. Little late on Sadaams part. He died oh well, just like the 100's of thousands of people prior. He was a maniac that needed to be stopped, unlike the masses of people he destroyed. He was a threat to our culture unlike the Jungaweed, but hey if the Dem says its alright then lets go. Obama is green and just for that reason doesn't have the presence to run our country.
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He was a maniac that needed to be stopped, unlike the masses of people he destroyed. He was a threat to our culture unlike the Jungaweed, but hey if the Dem says its alright then lets go.
And yet you're forgetting that we paid for and support most of his tyranny.
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. Obama is green and just for that reason doesn't have the presence to run our country.
I agree with you.
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LOL, that first comment is ironic considering you have claimed Bush lied on many occasions.
We have terrorist camps here? Where, Phil? Please point them out so our country can rise up and rid itself of these. I had no idea we had terrorist training camps. Wow, you would think such common knowledge would be PLASTERED all over the news.
I love the revisionist history you have, Phil. How many times did Saddam stall and filibuster with the inspectors? Every time they were set to go in, there would be long delays as Saddam continued to refuse access. He would FINALLY cave. Why was he waiting and stalling, Phil? After all, you have so much inside knowledge of the situation, please enlighten all of us.
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We have terrorist camps here? Where, Phil? Please point them out so our country can rise up and rid itself of these. I had no idea we had terrorist training camps. Wow, you would think such common knowledge would be PLASTERED all over the news.
We have sunk billions of dollars into terrorist regimes in Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Afghanistan, Israel, Haiti, Iraq...the list goes on. We support brutal and treacherous dictators who use violence as a means to frighten and control the population.
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Why was he waiting and stalling, Phil? After all, you have so much inside knowledge of the situation, please enlighten all of us.
Because he didn't want to appear weak to Iran or Israel.
Just about all intelligence and evidence revealed after the regime was toppled points to this rather clearly. Documents, executive orders, meeting notes...he wished to have his sanctions lifted, so he was complying with the demands but trying to save face in front of his hostile neighbors.
I figured you would have known that, having read the intelligence and all.
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the proof that you ask is evident as there were no WMD's found. read and understand the word "misled." Mis*lead"\, v. t. [imp. & p. p. Misled; p. pr. & vb. n. Misleading.] [AS. misl?dan. See Mis-, and Lead to conduct.] To lead into a wrong way or path; to lead astray; to guide into error; to cause to mistake; to deceive. I never said lied. He was wrong. example 1: Colin Powell speach before the UN. Text of Powell Speech example 2: Bush speech before Iraq war. Bush speech. Don't assume that I am left either. My disdain for Bush has been separated from my views of the Republican party.
Welcome back, Joe, we missed you!
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Because there were none. If you believe this, then the tooth fairy and easter bunny are your friends.
What I believe,is that there were WMDs that were unaccounted for. Not that the are still hidden there, or that we secretly found them and covered it up. The fact is he wasn't open and honest about them after the Gulf War. He never really changed his tune. All he had to do was be open with all the inspectors the entire time, and there would have been zero basis for us to assume he was hiding something. We still would have taken him out, but it would have been for another reason.
#gmstrong
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They signed a contract and will support and defend the constitution of the United States of America per the commander in chiefs order. Opinion is meaningless when it comes to these issues, and I am damn proud of that.
You should be. They are part of a chain of command and should do whatever they are order to do without complaint (as long as it's a lawful order). I was just wondering if the person who has served there sees things differently because they have interacted with the local population.
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The local population is grateful, the ones they interacted with were glad to have a job that paid and didn't have the fear instilled in them during Sadaams reign of terror. Those comments are coming from someone who served first hand in these conditions, though it has been hell on my life, and almost caused serious harm to my life. they got the job done, and I support the actions even if the consequences did hinder the growth of my family..
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60 minutes had a pretty good interview with a CIA agent who talked to Saddam after he was caught and before he was hung. Saddam never thought that the US would follow through. He was wrong.
If Saddam was in the process of developing WMD's then he was way off from actually having them. It was not an immenent threat to the US.
Welcome back, Joe, we missed you!
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So, we don't have terrorist camps where we're training terrorists, right? Yeah, that's what I thought.
So your OPINION is tha he didn't want to look weak. It's others' opinions, especially at the time, that he had something to hide. Of course, you have the benefit of hindsight being 20/20 and you can feel superior because of it. Thanks for clearing that up.
Pdawg, excellent post. You're absolutelly right.
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So, we don't have terrorist camps where we're training terrorists, right? Yeah, that's what I thought.
What?
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So your OPINION is tha he didn't want to look weak. It's others' opinions, especially at the time, that he had something to hide. Of course, you have the benefit of hindsight being 20/20 and you can feel superior because of it. Thanks for clearing that up.
No, it's not an opinion.
You see, when we toppled the Hussein regime, we pretty much had free reign on all of his government's documents. That's a lot of paperwork. There are meeting transcripts, testimony of military officials, memos...he had halted his weapons programs in order to have his sanctions lifted, but did not want this information visible to Israel or Iran. Again, not an opinion.
You haven't read a lick of intelligence or conclusions have you?
And I really don't think any of the intelligence reporting said convincingly that he had anything to hide. At most, one could argue that intel suggested he could have had something to hide...but that was scant and circumstantial.
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LOL, poor Phil. Which word didn't you understand. I asked where the terrorist training camps were in this coutnry. You ignored the question and filibustered as usual. It's an easy question, you didn't answer it because there are none, then act like you don't know what was being asked. Yes, it is an OPINION based on hindsight. I asked why he stalled. You gave an opinion....unless you were there and talked to Saddam or those documents you are alluding to STATE why he did. Of course, they don't, but that doesn't stop you from trying to claim they do. You are really good at not answering a question and throwing out things that don't really answer what is asked. Then you talk about your disdain for politiicians when you use their tactics.
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The change most Americans want is a change which will bring us back to the happier days of the mid to late 50s. After the Korean War we had a brief period of peace before the Cold War heated up. These times were far from perfect for some minorities but they were better than in the decade before WWII.
People think that we can have it all once again. That we can expect to have 2-3 cars...multiple big screen TVs...free health care and peace with no bill to pay.
It doesn't work that way...the spending spree must slow to a crawl...the sacrifices made in the 40s to produce the happy 50s were intense. There are bills to pay and programs to eliminate and more responsibility shared by politicians and all of us.
Be careful what you wish for in this time.
The American people will never knowingly adopt Socialism. But under the name of 'liberalism' they will adopt every fragment of the Socialist program, .
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Phil, I have never heard a Military person ask for the Libs to Please help them get out of Iraq. Sure they have a dangerous job and sure they miss home. But they know how important their job needs to be finished. You Pit, Charger may not have the stomach to defend youselves, but at least you could let them do what they are trained to do. What next? Would you tell Firemen or Police personel not to do their job because its to dangerous.
As for WMDs, what was Saddam doing to the Kurds. I'll bet the Kurds consider "Gas" a WMD. Maybe you would too if good ol Saddam set off some gas at the " I Love France convention " Charger Dawg was attending in San Diago.4000 killed is awfull we all agree on that but to cut and run and let Congress lose another war is not acceptable.
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We're in the midst of the worst president in our nation's history
How soon we forget about Jimmy Carter.
"My signature line goes here."
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Phil, I have never heard a Military person ask for the Libs to Please help them get out of Iraq.
I've heard many soldiers defend the war in Iraq, and many denounce it.
They have their opinions, just like anyone, but in the end they have a job to do.
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You Pit, Charger may not have the stomach to defend youselves
Defend ourselves from what exactly?
The only thing the men and women sewrving in Iraq are defending themselves from is the chaos that a foolish government put them in.
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As for WMDs, what was Saddam doing to the Kurds. I'll bet the Kurds consider "Gas" a WMD.
Yes, ones that the United States paid for and developed for him.
While he did it, we flew planes overhead to watch.
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DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Tailgate Forum R U sure you want change???
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