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all of my friends in both Cleveland and Orlando who were black
What are they now? 
"My country is the world, and my religion is to do good" Thomas Paine
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Well, good for you. That's your preference. I was not born in Africa, no. My ancestors were, thus where my heritage lies. I'm not ashamed to be American, nor should I be ashamed to be an African descendant. But that's my choice. I'm well aware that there are not technically "white" people. But those are the definitions of our society. It is what it is. I don't get bent out of shape when people say black.
We may be all Americans, but we are not all the same. We have cultural differences. I respect those, "white" people do things differently than "black" people, and vice versa. Nothing to be ashamed of.
We'll truly make strides when we understand and respect those differences, instead of trying to make everything and everyone conform to one bland culture. It won't work.
No one bashes the Jews for holding true to their culture, although a good majority of them weren't born in Israel. No one bashes the Germans for Oktoberfest, although, I'll bet a good portion of them weren't born in Germany. No one bashes the Irish, for dying an entire river green for their cultural celebration. But here, I'm supposed to feel bad about embracing my African heritage, although I was born here.
To let you know, I still cheer for the US in the Olympics.
"My country is the world, and my religion is to do good" Thomas Paine
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No one bashes the Jews for holding true to their culture, although a good majority of them weren't born in Israel. No one bashes the Germans for Oktoberfest, although, I'll bet a good portion of them weren't born in Germany. No one bashes the Irish, for dying an entire river green for their cultural celebration. But here, I'm supposed to feel bad about embracing my African heritage, although I was born here.
To let you know, I still cheer for the US in the Olympics.
Your right, no one bashes those other cultures for celebrating their heritage, But they also don't call themselves, Jewish-Americans or German-Americans. 
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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Some of them do. It's just not public. I've heard the term German-American. Italian-American, Irish-American. I have no problem with how a person or a culture identifies itself. But some of you seem to think that that's not being patriotic... 
"My country is the world, and my religion is to do good" Thomas Paine
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Actually, only the overtly politically correct use those terms... most just refer to themselves as 'German', 'Italian' or 'Irish', leaving the 'American' part off completely.
In short though, I think it is all a matter of how far back into your geneaology one wants to look until they find the pride, identity or sense of belonging that they are looking for. Hell, we're ALL from Africa if you go back far enough.... some folks look further back than others to get the thing they can identify with, the thing they can look at and 'hang their hat on'.
Me? I only need to look where I was born, where I grew up and where I live. It is what I am. It is the culture I know and am a part of... all of those other places are just names of places that I have no connection with except when I need that bit of trivia in a conversation. Hell, I'd have to go back 4 generations to come up with one person that even knew one person that came from those places... that is hardly my heritage, that is history.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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That's you, that's your right to embrace your historical heritage or not.
Don't begrudge me because I choose to. And I'm not the only one.
"My country is the world, and my religion is to do good" Thomas Paine
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I'm not begrudging anyone or anything... just stating the way I see things.
Like I said, I think it is simply a matter of how far one needs/wants to look into their own past to find something they can identify with.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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I was speaking in general...not specifically you.
I just don't see why people tend to get so offended by it. It'd be different if I wasn't claiming America at all. I'm just as much American as I am African. I recognize both.
"My country is the world, and my religion is to do good" Thomas Paine
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You have offered a nice history lesson but as you know being treated nicely by a slave owner doesn't obscure the fact that they were property and not human. They were cars, machinery, cattle. It does no good for a slave owner to beat the crap out of something that puts money in their pocket. If you depended on your car as a means of generating income you wouldn't drive it into the ground. Also, there were slave owners that had sex with female slaves or encouraged "breeding" to produce offspring that would become slaves. Indentured servants hired as overseers were very brutal in the slave owners' absence.
The problem as I see it is that the history you know, the history I know, the history most of the folks on this board know is lost on a generation of kids who repeat the epithets they hear and see in rap music or on television without understanding the weight behind those words. I have literally seen two white teenagers substitute the 'n' word for the word friend. It's just odd for me to hear that.
It is just in my opinion, not that anyone here cares, that race relations requires just such a history lesson with a healthy dose of cool, rational, intelligent dialog. There are things that are going to be said on both sides of the aisle that will offend, not because it is intended to offend, but it's just the way it is seen, or as a poster above mentioned, perceived.
Unfortunately, it's the knuckleheads that get put in front of the camera, not the sensible ones.
By the way, the BEST class I ever took in college was African American literature taught by an elderly Jewish man. I walked away from that class a better person. Julius Lester's "To be a Slave" is powerful.
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"My country is the world, and my religion is to do good" Thomas Paine
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And as far as I know, there's no country called black.
There isn't one called Africa either.
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Nor is there one called Caucasia or even Jewery... yet we have caucasians and Jews.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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For the sake of discussion...since we are talking about race. Would you prefer Negroid and Caucasion...does that suit you better...bud!
How about tan, and casper  I prefer not to use black or white, we are all men, (and women) and we are all equal.
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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And as far as I know, there's no country called black.
There isn't one called Africa either.
You just don't know when to quit...fine, there's no continent called black either!
"My country is the world, and my religion is to do good" Thomas Paine
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We may be all Americans, but we are not all the same. We have cultural differences
There is nothing wrong with those differences, but why does skin color have to be even brought up? Those from the mid east have different skin color than those from other parts of the world, but they don't always talk about their brown heritage. The same with those south of the U.S. border, and those from china or japan. They don't go around saying I am a proud yellow man, or proud brown man.
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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We may be all Americans, but we are not all the same. We have cultural differences
There is nothing wrong with those differences, but why does skin color have to be even brought up? Those from the mid east have different skin color than those from other parts of the world, but they don't always talk about their brown heritage. The same with those south of the U.S. border, and those from china or japan. They don't go around saying I am a proud yellow man, or proud brown man.
Don't question me, question god (or evolution)...it just so happens that each distinct culture happens to have a distinct skin color.
Like it or not, it is what it is.
"My country is the world, and my religion is to do good" Thomas Paine
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You just don't know when to quit...fine, there's no continent called black either!
No kidding?! There isn't?! Well damn me to hell! I've been lied to all along?
All kidding aside, why even hyphenate anything describing ethnicity at all? If you're an American citizen, why not just leave it at that? What do you get out of referring to yourself as an "African-American"? I would really like to know. I don't refer to myself as a German- or Slovak-American (my two European heritages). I am only an American. No hyphen allowed.
I want to know why you (and only you) prefer to be referred to as an African-American.
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There is nothing wrong with those differences, but why does skin color have to be even brought up? Those from the mid east have different skin color than those from other parts of the world, but they don't always talk about their brown heritage. The same with those south of the U.S. border, and those from china or japan. They don't go around saying I am a proud yellow man, or proud brown man.
I would push the limit even further, and ask why we have to go around saying how proud we are to be an American...why can't we just be people? The human race...isn't this nice?
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Don't question me, question god (or evolution)...it just so happens that each distinct culture happens to have a distinct skin color.
Like it or not, it is what it is.
Dang, I didn't know my skin color was different than that of Germans, or French, or Britains, or Russians, or Australians, or Canadians, or any of the other "white" countries. I'll have to pay attention in the future so I can tell who's who.
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What do you get out of referring to yourself as an "African-American"?
Pride!
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I want to know why you (and only you) prefer to be referred to as an African-American.
It reflects both aspects of who I am. I'm very proud of my African lineage, and ancestry, and culture. As well, as I'm proud to be an American. Both have distinctly different cultures.
Why are you so offended by it? I'm not putting down America by saying it.
Whatever you choose for yourself, is your decision. I respect whatever you are and whatever you call yourself. You should try the same.
"My country is the world, and my religion is to do good" Thomas Paine
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Don't question me, question god (or evolution)...it just so happens that each distinct culture happens to have a distinct skin color.
Like it or not, it is what it is.
Dang, I didn't know my skin color was different than that of Germans, or French, or Britains, or Russians, or Australians, or Canadians, or any of the other "white" countries. I'll have to pay attention in the future so I can tell who's who.
There are subtle differences. But you're right, who has time to divide up white people? You should all just be lumped together into one big pot, right?!
"My country is the world, and my religion is to do good" Thomas Paine
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I understand what you're saying about being proud of all of your heritage and you should be, as I am in mine. I think that what people are trying to say is that when you are trying to unite a nation and giet equality to everyone, using such a hyphenated lineage (for lack of a better word) caustes distinction and is divisive simple because it seperates people.
I am not saying you are wrong or don't have a right to consider yourself whatever you want. You certainly do. However, I know that I have pride in my ethnic background and it is very important to me. IMO, I don't have to seperate myself with that "label" (again, for lack of a better term) that reminds everyone of the differences and seperates us as a nation. Of course our country is built from diverse people in MANY ways. What makes this country great is all those diverse people make up a great nation.
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It's only divisive if you let it be. I'm not separating myself from anyone. We can be united as a nation and still be different people. When we focus on issues that affect us all, instead haggling over little things like a hyphenation, THEN, we'll get to where we're trying to go.
"My country is the world, and my religion is to do good" Thomas Paine
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Don't question me, question god (or evolution)...it just so happens that each distinct culture happens to have a distinct skin color.
Like it or not, it is what it is.
Dang, I didn't know my skin color was different than that of Germans, or French, or Britains, or Russians, or Australians, or Canadians, or any of the other "white" countries. I'll have to pay attention in the future so I can tell who's who.
There are subtle differences. But you're right, who has time to divide up white people? You should all just be lumped together into one big pot, right?!
White people in one big pot? No. Americans in one big pot? Yes.
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Hey, I'm just saying why I think people think that. I never said I agreed with it. 
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Why? We're not all the same people. We don't do things the same, we'll never be the same. That's what makes America great, we can be different and still come together for the good of mankind. But when I hear people tell me that I should forsake my heritage for no other reason that "this is America" Well, that's lame. Not too long ago, in the Outing Hip-Hop thread, someone said that black artists are meaningless...and you want me to sit in the same pot with someone like that...No thank you.
"My country is the world, and my religion is to do good" Thomas Paine
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What do you get out of referring to yourself as an "African-American"?
Pride!
So, you wouldn't get the same pride just referring to yourself as an American? Do you realize how silly that sounds? Do you even care that others may find it offensive? From your answer, I don't believe that you do. Furthermore, I do not think that it jibes with what you stated earlier and that you are being dishonest. You are, in my opinion, just as divisive as all the other race and ethnicity pitchmen out there.
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I want to know why you (and only you) prefer to be referred to as an African-American.
It reflects both aspects of who I am. I'm very proud of my African lineage, and ancestry, and culture. As well, as I'm proud to be an American. Both have distinctly different cultures.
I see your words and I do believe it reflects on who you are. I just don't see it as reflecting upon you in a good way. You say that you are proud to be an American, but by attaching the hyphenated "African-" to it, I cannot say that I believe you. I am certain that you believe that you are sincere.
However, I would like to pose a simple question to you. That question is:
Do you know, with absolute certainty, where in Africa your ancestors came from?
If not, then the "lineage" and "culture" arguments don't apply. Without knowing with a good degree of certainty, you cannot establish lineage or culture.
I have my German (a town in Germany bears my family name) and Slovak lineages, but I do not promote them. I do not even claim them. The only culture that my family claims is our American one.
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Why are you so offended by it? I'm not putting down America by saying it.
You may not believe so, but I believe that you are. Furthermore, by using the term "African-American", you are willfully trying to segregate yourself from America. The term itself came into use in the 1980s (largely thrust into usage by Jesse Jackson). What did you call yourself prior to the 1980s?
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Whatever you choose for yourself, is your decision. I respect whatever you are and whatever you call yourself. You should try the same.
I find the use of hyphenating America as offensive. I don't give a damn if it's someone saying "Irish-American", "Italian-American" or "German-American". I find those uses equally offensive.
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Hey, I'm just saying why I think people think that. I never said I agreed with it.
Never thought I'd see the day when we would get along in a race thread. But, I welcome it open arms!
"My country is the world, and my religion is to do good" Thomas Paine
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I didn't say I was going to hug you LOL
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I would like to point out that you may not promote your heritage, but you are certainly aware of it. Also, I would guess that your name bears it as well, as mine does. Those that were slaves didn't have that, as they were assigned surnames based on their master (if my history is coming back to me correctly).
Really, I don't see a big deal in this. If it's important to someone to express pride in their cultures, both of them as ndutyme has stated, what does it matter to me. As long as we are working side by side to make this country great, he can call himself a one-eyed, one-armed purple people eater for all I care. What matters is that we understand that he isn't saying he isn't loyal to America or his American heritage. He just wants to recognize what he is as a WHOLE person. I don't see too big a deal in that. It's important to him and it doesn't change who he is as an American.
As he said, let's worry about the real issues and not worry about something like "labels".
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So, you wouldn't get the same pride just referring to yourself as an American? Do you realize how silly that sounds? Do you even care that others may find it offensive? From your answer, I don't believe that you do. Furthermore, I do not think that it jibes with what you stated earlier and that you are being dishonest. You are, in my opinion, just as divisive as all the other race and ethnicity pitchmen out there.
I don't care what you think, truthfully. It's not my concern. Your opinions have no bearing on my life. That said, did you not read the part where I said I'm proud of both...or do you only read what you can argue against.
And you are just as bigoted as any Klansman out there. IMO.
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However, I would like to pose a simple question to you. That question is:
Do you know, with absolute certainty, where in Africa your ancestors came from?
If not, then the "lineage" and "culture" arguments don't apply. Without knowing with a good degree of certainty, you cannot establish lineage or culture.
Does it matter, I know without a doubt that people of my ancestry of my "color" originated in Africa....PERIOD! I embrace that, I honor that. I recognize that. I also know without a doubt that I am an American, and the people in my family have served this country proudly. I embrace that, I honor that. I recognize that.
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I have my German (a town in Germany bears my family name) and Slovak lineages, but I do not promote them. I do not even claim them. The only culture that my family claims is our American one.
You certainly have the right to do what makes you happy. As do I.
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You may not believe so, but I believe that you are. Furthermore, by using the term "African-American", you are willfully trying to segregate yourself from America. The term itself came into use in the 1980s (largely thrust into usage by Jesse Jackson). What did you call yourself prior to the 1980s?
That's your belief. Fortunately, it's not shared by everyone.
I'm not segregating myself from anyone, otherwise I wouldn't acknowledge America at all. Jesse Jackson didn't thrust that term upon me. Actually, I didn't know he thrust it upon anyone. Before 1980, I was considered black. I felt that didn't describe me completely because it didn't give a sense of who I am. But before black, we were Negroes, before then, we were "N-Words", before then, we were slaves. For so long, our identification was"thrust" upon us by people who didn't know us. I chose to call myself African-American. It was time for us to define ourselves....and...
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I find the use of hyphenating America as offensive. I don't give a damn if it's someone saying "Irish-American", "Italian-American" or "German-American". I find those uses equally offensive.
...if you take offense to that, then sorry for you. There are much worse things in the world than this. You're making it divisive, not me. You're taking offense to a personal choice...to a person's (and a people's) self-identification. Nothing more, nothing less.
The sun will still rise tomorrow, and I'll still be African-American...whether you like it or not.
"My country is the world, and my religion is to do good" Thomas Paine
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I didn't say I was going to hug you LOL
Aww come one...what's one hug?
"My country is the world, and my religion is to do good" Thomas Paine
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Well, it could ruin my label as a right wing conservative nut job if anyone ever found out.
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Well, you'll undoubtedly still be that But don't worry, I won't tell anybody, it'll ruin my rep too.
"My country is the world, and my religion is to do good" Thomas Paine
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I don't care what you think, truthfully. It's not my concern. Your opinions have no bearing on my life. That said, did you not read the part where I said I'm proud of both...or do you only read what you can argue against.
I was speaking for myself, of course, but not exclusively for myself.
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And you are just as bigoted as any Klansman out there. IMO.
Yeah. We know what "IMO" is worth, don't we? Call yourself what you want, I won't stop you. Just letting you know what many Americans (including myself) think of this "hypehnated America" that you seem to embrace is doing for this country. From my perspective (and I am only one person), none of it is good.
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Does it matter, I know without a doubt that people of my ancestry of my "color" originated in Africa....PERIOD! I embrace that, I honor that. I recognize that.
Yes, it matters for your argument to hold any water. Unfortunately for you, your ancestry is not really known. There are a 100,000 tribes in Africa that your ancestry could be a part of and nearly as many distinct cultures.
It appears to me that you choose to embrace something that is pseudo-African but which likely has no connection to Africa at all.
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I also know without a doubt that I am an American, and the people in my family have served this country proudly. I embrace that, I honor that. I recognize that.
My family has served this country since the Revolutionary War (ancestors served in Massachusetts regiments during the war) and later settled in Ohio. That early Ohio settler ancestor of mine was the son of an early German immigrant to this country (circa the 1750s).
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You certainly have the right to do what makes you happy. As do I.
And I have the right to criticize you for doing what makes you happy. I think your actions help serve the destruction of the fabric that is this nation. Unlike you, I would never say you're a bigot. I simply think you are wrong-thinking and may be unwittingly helping to destroy this nation.
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That's your belief. Fortunately, it's not shared by everyone.
The origins of the term "African-American" as I stated, are completely true. I'll link to Wiki on this one since the sources can be verified. wiki
]quote]I'm not segregating myself from anyone, otherwise I wouldn't acknowledge America at all. Jesse Jackson didn't thrust that term upon me. Actually, I didn't know he thrust it upon anyone. Before 1980, I was considered black. I felt that didn't describe me completely because it didn't give a sense of who I am. But before black, we were Negroes, before then, we were "N-Words", before then, we were slaves. For so long, our identification was"thrust" upon us by people who didn't know us. I chose to call myself African-American. It was time for us to define ourselves....and...
All of these words are those used by Americans of African ancestry to describe themselves. Of course, the slang words used often have a derogatory connotation.
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...if you take offense to that, then sorry for you. There are much worse things in the world than this.
I don't believe that there are too many things that are more divisive than this for this country.
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You're making it divisive, not me.
How do you figure this? I'm not the one hyphenating my ancestry.
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 6,370
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 6,370 |
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I would like to point out that you may not promote your heritage, but you are certainly aware of it.
Indeed. I am aware of it. Living in Syracuse, I experience a great deal of cultures from around the world (but I still can't find good authentic Mexican food).
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Also, I would guess that your name bears it as well, as mine does. Those that were slaves didn't have that, as they were assigned surnames based on their master (if my history is coming back to me correctly).
Often, they chose the names of the slave-owners.
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Really, I don't see a big deal in this. If it's important to someone to express pride in their cultures, both of them as ndutyme has stated, what does it matter to me.
Perhaps it doesn't. I think that it should matter to you and if you read my exchange with him, you may understand my viewpoint.
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It's important to him and it doesn't change who he is as an American.
Perhaps not, but it does help to drive a wedge between Americans.
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As he said, let's worry about the real issues and not worry about something like "labels".
We differ in this only in the sense that you (and ndutyme) don't think it is not a real issue. I believe that it is a real issue. Is it the most important issue? Absolutely not, but the hyphenation is a divisive and segregating action, just as Jesse Jackson had intended it to be.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,667
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,667 |
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Well, good for you. That's your preference. I was not born in Africa, no. My ancestors were, thus where my heritage lies.
OK...but then I have a question for you....
I have a good friend who is Egyptian in heritage....
Yet he is "not allowed" to say he is African American.....I mean the last time I checked Egypt was apart of Africa.....
Do you have the same problems if he were to call himself African American???
You claim no country of "Black".........well there is no country of "Africa" either. Now if you were to say Nigerian-American, or Ethiopian -American, etc...would that not be better. Granted, It would be very difficult to trace the lines back due to poor record keeping from the time of slavery, but it may not be impossible. (Heck some of my ancestors were gypsies...so I am still tracking my ancestry) If anything...that may be the largest thing taken from the race, any sense of prior heritage or ancestry(but it is the case with most slaves regardless of race).
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But here, I'm supposed to feel bad about embracing my African heritage, although I was born here.
No you shouldn't....and I don't think anyone is saying you should. You act as if every single country in Africa is exactly the same and that they all have the same heritage, ancestry and traditions....And the term "African-American" is not a term that does you (or others that it describes yet excludes) any service.
Do you think the term services you???? I certainly don't care to be labled Caucasion nor white, nor of European decent. Especially with the mix of blood that I have, I could be legally seen as a Native American as well. I don't want that lable either. I am proud of my different heritages(all several hundred of them...lol....I am a real Heinz 57...lol). I will celebrate them at times. But NEVER do I place them to the forefront of who I am.
I am not Cherokee Indian, Cherokee Indian is a part of me. I am not Ukrainian, Ukranian is a part of me.......
I am not white. White is a part of me.
I thought I was wrong once....but I was mistaken...
What's the use of wearing your lucky rocketship underpants if nobody wants to see them????
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,833
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,833 |
J/C As a white person I wish I could play the race card just one time. I'm still waiting for all this white privledge I'm supposed to have. I'd also like to know how I have benefitted by slavery. My ancestors did not own slaves. They were poor. I'm from Penna. Slavery never existed there and I can't even remember any segregation in my lifetime. I resent being held accountable for something neither me nor my ancestors were responsible for. 
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 27,306
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 27,306 |
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Don't question me, question god (or evolution)...it just so happens that each distinct culture happens to have a distinct skin color.
Like it or not, it is what it is.
They also have different hair color and types, different eye color and shapes, and other differences in features. Why zero in on skin color ?
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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