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63 games in (39% of the way through the 2008 season) and we have the 7th worst record in baseball, one of the leageues worst offenses, one of the AL's worst bullpens and are 8.5 back in the division and 9 back in the wildcard.
What are everyone's thoughts on the team? Should we try to dump some payroll? Trade C.C.?
With injuries to Westy, Pronk and Carmona not sure we can rebound in any way, shape or form. I know 2 of the 3 will eventually be back but I wonder how effective they'll be when they return (after shutting it down for a significant period of time)?
I would move C.C. ASAP, possibly explore a smaller deal for maybe Byrd and also try to dump Hafner for a box of cracker jacks.
I'm open to just about anything but I think we need to take a similar approach to what the Sox did last season. Identify some players we may want and try to retool.
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I 95% thinking its time to re-tool. I know they said they won't discuss contract with CC during the season, but maybe one last attempt. If he isn't willing (most likely) then maybe its time to push the button. Not much signs of it getting turned around and the longer you wait, the less you may get in a trade. It may even be time to move Peralta to 3rd, Cabrera to SS, and bring up Barfield to play 2nd and get a glimpse of that infield.
Nobody ever wants to fold their hand in poker after betting so much, but sometimes you have to.
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I have to agree. The Tribe probably can't resign CC, although his value may be deflated by how bad Zito has been in San Fran. I think he could be moved in a Randy Johnson leaving Seattle style move.
What sucks is that their rotation looked great in Spring Training on paper, but with Westbrook blowing out his elbow (second Tommy John surgery), Carmona hurt, and then Adam Miller's troubles, it's rough to trade your ace. Getting Lee back to Earth has been nice, but the Tribe has to be three deep in the rotation to be a viable contender.
As far as Hafner goes, send him down to AAA like they did Lee last year. No one is dumb enough to take on that contract, he'll clear waivers.
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Well my thoughts, It's still to early to make a trade just yet, but I would be letting C.C. agent know that things have changed and we cant wait until after the season to sign a deal, we cant let him walk without getting something for him, make the call see what can be done.
Pronk, man what has happened to his swing, he's so out of sync at bat it's like watching a chicken tring to hump a horse. I dont know whats wrong, but to me there is something more than just physical going on, something up stairs is off. i'm not for trading him but see what being offered,
Byrd, depends on the deal, I like him being around the young pitchers.
I've been a Johnny Peralta backer from the beginning, but man I'm getting tired of him hitting into DP's battling the pitcher deep into the count only to pop out or hit a weak ground ball,
Also I havent been impressed with Sowers since 2006, at ties he does great than next inning it look like he loses his focus and cant pay for an out. I'm not saying trade him, but leave him in AAA
I'm not for selling the farm just yet, but it's getting to the point where it hurts to watch, to me the club looks like there is no spark, no drive, it looks now like there shell shocked this is happening to them, this team that was predicted to win the world series, it wasnt suppose to happen to them, this team wasnt prepared for a slow start, this team look right now to be weak meantally. Man I love the tribe and will continue to root & pray and watch but something has to be done, somebody need to make a move, because if not Wedge might be scape goat for this.
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According to Jason Stark (ESPN), the Tribe has already been scouting the Red Sox for potential players that they could receive in return for the Fat Man.
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Legend
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This season is over, especially with the way the Sox are winning right now. It's time to stock the minors with some young prospects. We need just about everything.
I'll be sad when the firesale begins....but I'll know its the right thing to do.
![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/Punchsmack/punch.gif) “...Iguodala to Curry, back to Iguodala, up for the layup! Oh! Blocked by James! LeBron James with the rejection!”
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Legend
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Quote:
I'm not for selling the farm just yet, but it's getting to the point where it hurts to watch, to me the club looks like there is no spark, no drive, it looks now like there shell shocked this is happening to them, this team that was predicted to win the world series, it wasnt suppose to happen to them, this team wasnt prepared for a slow start, this team look right now to be weak meantally. Man I love the tribe and will continue to root & pray and watch but something has to be done, somebody need to make a move, because if not Wedge might be scape goat for this.
Well, Wedge is the manager of this team. He's supposed to be the guy giving them the kick in the butt and helping them get that spark. This team looks flat and at times just looks like they don't care.
Now, I'm not saying they don't care, just saying it looks that way. Wedge needs to get their heads back into it. At this level, these guys all know how to play the game. The coach needs to deal with the locker room stuff.
I am unfamiliar with this feeling of optimism
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Quote:
Well, Wedge is the manager of this team. He's supposed to be the guy giving them the kick in the butt and helping them get that spark. This team looks flat and at times just looks like they don't care.
He needs to go all "Ozzie Guillen" on them but we know that's not Wedge's nature.
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Hall of Famer
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If somebody told me that come June Shoppach would have more HR's than Martinez I would have asked them to take a drug test.
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Legend
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I would trade CC ASAP.
I would look at dumping Wedge too.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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2007 Amercian Leauge manager of the year.......... To 2008 ?????? I guess thats why we play the games 
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I have a feeling this schizophrenia is the Indians team we'll be seeing in future years. Hot one year, cold the next, hot the next year, cold the next.
It's just how moneyball works. We have talent to contend but unless everything falls into place, we're not gonna be true contenders.
We're not gonna be repeatedly on top...not how we play the moneyball game.
I want so bad for us to go out and get a legit slugger, but I know it won't happen.
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According to Jason Stark (ESPN), the Tribe has already been scouting the Red Sox for potential players that they could receive in return for the Fat Man.
Well, either we're gonna get something from Boston from him, or Boston will simply buy him once he becomes a free agent. -Just like Boston has done with the majority of their team.
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Quote:
Quote:
According to Jason Stark (ESPN), the Tribe has already been scouting the Red Sox for potential players that they could receive in return for the Fat Man.
Well, either we're gonna get something from Boston from him, or Boston will simply buy him once he becomes a free agent. -Just like Boston has done with the majority of their team.
I think Boston would be willing to part with prospects to get him 6 months early IMO.
There's always compensation when teams lose FA's in baseball. CC will be a class A free agent, which would mean Boston would have to give us their #1 draft pick even if they wait and sign him in free agency. We would also be compensated with a sandwich pick between rounds 1 and 2.
So, worst case scenario (if we hold on to him) is we are given 2 picks in the top 40 of the MLB draft. I'd prefer a minor league prospect that has already proven he's a potential major league talent but we'll see what happens.
If Boston offered us any of the following guys, I would take the deal and run:
SS Jed Lowrie
OF Ryan Kalish
3B Will Middlebrooks
OF Josh Reddick
Middlebrooks is the guy I would be after. He's a potential five-tool guy at 3B. Not sure if Boston would trade him but given that C.C. is only 26, you'd have to think we can get one of the top 3 or 4 players in a teams farm system in return.
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Trade CC, Byrd and maybe even Casey Blake as he is a great platoon guy who could really help another team as their 9th, 10th guy.
At this point, besides catcher and center field, I consider the whole team open to competition. I'd like to move Peralta to 3B and get a legit SS in there, but we need either Barfield or Cabrera to actaully hit. They both can make it defensively.
Areas of need to me for the Indians:
1.) Future closer
2.) SS
3.) 3B
4.) OF
I rank them that way because #1 and #2 are the hardest positions to fill. I think 3B and corner outfielder is a more immediate need, but I'm thinking long term
I'm coming home, I'm coming home, tell the world I'm coming home
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Quote:
I have a feeling this schizophrenia is the Indians team we'll be seeing in future years. Hot one year, cold the next, hot the next year, cold the next.
It's just how moneyball works. We have talent to contend but unless everything falls into place, we're not gonna be true contenders.
We're not gonna be repeatedly on top...not how we play the moneyball game.
you could say that about a lot of teams. you have injuries and guys not performing, you're going to struggle. I don't think it has to do with moneyball, but the parity in baseball that you havn't seen in quite some time. ho wwould you like to be the yankees, tigers, or mets. they all have bigger payrolls than ours, and they are doing just as bad as us.
the only team that has had any true staying power in the last 5 years is the red sox. you could say the angels as well, but as far as winning championships, the red sox have been the team. they didn't buy it either, most of their players have been developed via the minors. Go figure.
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Legend
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If we trade CC, we'll probably need to keep Byrd around for another year or two to round out the rotation. Possible rotation for 2009 would be Carmona, Lee, Laffey, Byrd, and Sowers. That might be good enough - although I don't like having 3 "soft-tossers" in my rotation - to contend IF they can parlay CC into some immediate offensive and bullpen help. Adam Miller could make it a stronger rotation if he's healthy in 2009.
So what I would do is try to play the Red Sox against the Yankees for the best combination of hitter/relief pitcher that could play for us now. I would add to the deal as needed to make it palatable to the trading partner. Example - I'd love to see Melky Cabrera leading off for us next year, along with one of their young pitchers in our bullpen.
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"Areas of need to me for the Indians:
1.) Future closer
2.) SS
3.) 3B
4.) OF"
Excuse the sarcasm here but if we don't start hitting the ball consistently we have little need for a closer.
The American people will never knowingly adopt Socialism. But under the name of 'liberalism' they will adopt every fragment of the Socialist program, .
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Legend
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...the red sox have been the team. they didn't buy it either, most of their players have been developed via the minors. Go figure.
Are you sure about that? Most of their starters played for more than one team before coming to Boston.
Manny
Ortiz
Crisp
Schilling
Dice-K
Beckett
Colon
Wakefield
Mike Lowell
Lugo
J.D Drew
Sean Casey
I see Youkilis, Papelbon, Pedroia and Varitek. That's it. I wouldn't call them a homegrown team at all. Almost every starter they have began somewhere else (while 3 are super high proced FA's).
“...Iguodala to Curry, back to Iguodala, up for the layup! Oh! Blocked by James! LeBron James with the rejection!”
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Legend
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Quote:
Manny
Ortiz
Crisp
Schilling
Dice-K
Beckett
Colon
Wakefield
Mike Lowell
Lugo
J.D Drew
Sean Casey
Well yea, other than them...
yebat' Putin
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Legend
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Actually, Varitek came over from the Mariners in '97. The Red Sox got Derek Lowe and Varitek for the immortal Heathcliff Slocum ... OUCH!
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Legend
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So he's out as "homegrown" too. I think we have more homegrown players in our starting infield.  I know I said the Tribe was done in this division.....which we most likely are, but I think we have 10 more games to make it either way. If we can get a little hot over the next few homes games and Detroit takes Chicago down a bit, who knows. I'm still holding out hope (cause that's all we have as Cleveland sport fans).
“...Iguodala to Curry, back to Iguodala, up for the layup! Oh! Blocked by James! LeBron James with the rejection!”
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We can't trade C.C. and not get an arm in return. Middlebrooks would be good, but we have Hodges moving quickly up the minor league charts. I would like to see Lester or Buchholz thrown in the deal if C.C were to be shipped to Boston.
Lester LHP or Buchholz RHP
Lars Anderson 1B, DH
Oscar Tejada or Jed Lowrie SS
maybe Justin Masterson (convert to closer)
Why the deal may work... Oscar Tejada would likely be the one in the trade because Lowrie is Major League ready and probably the one position their weak at in the Majors. Tejada has a lot of promise and from what I have heard power too. Anderson has a ton of power and hits for average, but with Big Papi down he may be hard to get. Masterson is part of a crew of pitching prospects. C.C. more than makes up for Buchholz or Lester and they have prospects ready to step in for those other 3 I mentioned.
However... C.C., Beckett, Douche-K, Lester/Buchholz.... that's a tough playoff pitching staff for years to come.
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Why would you convert Masterson to a closer?
Eat it Phil...
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Legend
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There used to be a sports talker on the radio here that called Cleveland "The Land of Almost" ... screw that ... our time will come. But I don't think this is the year, at least for the Featherheads. With that in mind, and with the thought that there's almost no way the Indians will ante up for CC (nor should they, IMO), then there's really no reason to wait to make a deal. The interleague deadline is when teams will know the Indians have to deal CC - and we'll get hosed. When Shapiro traded Colon a few years back, it was well before the deadline - about this time of year, IIRC. Now is when we might be able to get division rivals into a bidding war and get something at least approaching fair value for last year's Cy Young winner.
Before someone asks "why are you willing to trade CC but not pay him, if you think he's worth so much?" ... pretty simple, the Indians are not in the same league payroll-wise as some other teams and they just can't pay over 25% of their payroll to one guy - especially a guy that only plays 20% of the time. JMO.
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Quote:
Why would you convert Masterson to a closer?
Because we need one. If we can't get one in a trade, then if Masterson is part of a deal from the Red Sox, why not? We have the starting pitching depth.... Miller (?) Huff, Logren, and R. Miller. Huff may be up this year and if A.Miller can ever be healthy he may be better than C.C. Masterson's fastball could be a force in the 9th inning. Tony Sipp was the closer of the future and he has fallen victim to injuries and poor play. If we can't find a closer, then we need to convert. Masterson or Adam Miller could be the right arm for the job in my opinion.
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C.C. looked reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeally good tonight. Complete game shutout, sat down 17 straight and 19 of the last 20.
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C.C. looked reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeally good tonight. Complete game shutout, sat down 17 straight and 19 of the last 20.
Well, if we're looking to move him we want him to throw 5 complete game shutouts in a row. 
Unless Chicago cools off, we're going to have trouble catching them. We continually split or lose series......and sadly, it's been almost a month since we won one ( the last was March 13th-15th against Oakland). Since that series win, we're 8-16. 
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True.
All I know is that Mark Shapiro probably won't be in a very enviable position here in the near future.
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You don't trade CC ASAP as many of you are saying. You wait until the trade deadline, when teams will overpay for him. Plus, if we can be around 4-5 games back by then, and there have been some signs of life in this team, then you might possibly want to keep him.
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I'd throw in Pronk as well if possible, he's just to one dimensional, and when he's slumping he's worthless. Bad move on signing him to a bigger contract. As for C.C. I agree he's gone by the trading deadline unless somehow this team gets it and goes on huge winning streak, which I just don't see, and that falls on Wedge as well, I didn't much care for him when he first became manager, small ball wasn't in his vocabulary for his first couple years, and he doesn't get production from his players. Overall though I think if we trade C.C. and Pronk we could get some good, solid prospects, and in the long run, doing this seems to work for us in the long run.
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Yankees have officially expressed interest in Sabathia. He wouldn't be a "rent an arm" with that organization either. They have $ 75 million+ becoming available in the off season and a contract for CC would be a drop in the bucket. What should we demand in return if this goes down?
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Quote:
Yankees have officially expressed interest in Sabathia. He wouldn't be a "rent an arm" with that organization either. They have $ 75 million+ becoming available in the off season and a contract for CC would be a drop in the bucket. What should we demand in return if this goes down?
Gotta get one of their young arms in return plus another positional player (possibly 2).
It's actually very good that NY wants him on a long-term basis because the value you expect in return is MUCH higher. Plus, now it gives us a bartering chip with other clubs like the Cubs and Sox. The more teams who are interested, the better the deal we get...... especially when all the teams would likely want him long term.
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When does the trading begin? I have to think the Tribe is taking phone calls now. It's just a matter of time.
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I'm sure they're taking phone calls by now. We probably won't see much movement until closer to the deadline though ... especially if there is a bidding war.
I've heard people on talk radio talking about the Rays and Brewers interested in CC ... and that doesn't include the big money players like the Cubs, Sox and Yankees.
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I hear about CC all day long on the radio here in Milwaukee.
I also heard Peter Gammons talking about it on baseball tonight. What surprised me a little there was him not talking about the Brewers trading prospects but rather trading either Weeks or Hardy.
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Probably because the Indians aren't looking to rebuild, just sort of reload for next year.
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I understand it's a business, but man do I hate to lose CC (if we do). That guy is just a good, if not great, pitcher. Yeah, he struggled early this year, but look at his last few outings. Man oh man.
I am unfamiliar with this feeling of optimism
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Trade him to that midwest media mecca of Milwaukee.
No harm no foul...let him live the high life but struggle as a huge fish in a tiny pond.
The American people will never knowingly adopt Socialism. But under the name of 'liberalism' they will adopt every fragment of the Socialist program, .
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Legend
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Quote:
We continually split or lose series......and sadly, it's been almost a month since we won one ( the last was March 13th-15th against Oakland). Since that series win, we're 8-16.
didn't we just take 2 of 3 from the dodgers?
i agree with a lot of you guys, i think we should dangle cc out there, but really hold off until the last week before the deadline, when teams get desperate, and some of them starting getting into a bidding war...
we're not going to get a huge package, probably nothing like sizemore/lee/phillips, but i think we can get something
i've been asked by cub fans about cc, i tell them it won't matter...
even if they get to the world series, they're just going to get shellacked by a superior team from the AL (which is the alpha male of major league baseball)
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Forums DawgTalk Tailgate Forum Time for Tribe to start listening
to trade offers?
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