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Listening to ESPN 850 this morning...I'm STUNNED at the amount of DUMB fans in Cleveland.

They all think they could pay CC and the Dolans are terrible...blah blah blah.

I hate Cleveland media and sometimes the fans.




You hate the fans because they're not resigned to the fate that we're never going to keep our superstars?

IMO the Dolans haven't done enough outside of baseball to raise revenues.

I know I'm gonna get the "Big market" speech about this but the Red Sox are handcuffed by Fenway Park...there's only so many luxury suites they can put in. So what did they do? They looked at other avenues to raise money, including buying an interest in Roush Racing (hence Roush Fenway).

There was an article about this on either NASCAR.com or ESPN.com about a year ago on this topic.

How are we expected to compete if we can't re-sign our stars? At best, we'll be like the Twins and Athletics...always respectable, even good, but never great.

That's a tough pill to swallow.




I think you post sometimes just to read your posts. Seriously, we are a small market team, deal with it. Trying to compare us to Boston shows your ignorance. Boston is a large market and the merchandise alone dwarfs the money the Indians have brought in.

Dolon has brought the tv broadcast in house which has brought up revenue, and they sold the naming rights to the field the moment they were able to. There is not much else they can do, Ammo.

The fact is CC was too much of a liability, they tried to work out a contract and from what I heard the $$/yr was right it was the # of years that was the hang up. The Indians can't lock up a large contract for more that 3-4 years, especially one on the 20 mil/yr threshold. CC wants a 6 year deal. If the Indians agree to a 6 year deal for that much money and CC gets hurt, we are screwed till the end of that contract and probably be stuck at the bottom.

Look at Hafner, if he can't learn to hit we are hurting big time because we have a lot of money tied up with a guy that may have been using performance enhancers.


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J/C


Every year it seems the lynch Mob is out to get Shaprio.

He is an idiot for some reason every year to fans.

Guess what?

We suck, Hafner might be done if his shoulder doesn't get better. We have Martinez injured, the 2nd base experiment crashed and burned. Don;t be surprised to see Martinez and Byrd get moved too since Shoppac is playing so well and Byrd sucks. We get a power hitting, centerpiece of a lineup type guy, for a guy in Sabathia that we would have never been able to resign anyway.

how many fat, power pitching guys do YOU see around the league that last into their 30's?? If you could name one I'd be surprised.

The bottom line is we suck, our offense is horrendous and we need a power bat for the future.

We got 4 minor leaguers for a guy who is going to get a retarded overpriced contract at the end of this season.

But I guess you arm chair GM's would have rather got nothing for him Ala Albert Bell, instead of ala Bartolo Colon (Sizemore, Brandon Phillips).

just keep this in mind, Mark Shaprio is respected all around the league for knowing what he is doing, unlike the lot of you.

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The grumpy old man is going to just say one thing. I will take the product and the organization as it is right now, instead of how it was in the late 60's to the late 80's.

So what C.C. left, personally I think he's overrated but hey we get some young prospects and make another run at it.

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Here's what indians.com said....

http://cleveland.indians.mlb.com/news/ar...sp&c_id=cle

The last linchpin of the deal is the player to be named, and that player will likely be the second-most prized acquisition for the Indians.

Green, 21, was the Brewers' Minor League Player of the Year last season. This season, he is batting .295 with 10 homers and 54 RBIs in 81 games at Class A Brevard County.

Brantley, 21, is a speedy center fielder who is batting .324 with four homers, 34 RBIs and 25 stolen bases in 74 games at Huntsville.

--------

If this is the case, I'm taking Brantley. A speedy leadoff guy who hits for average and steals bases is exactly what we need. It would allow us to drop Grady in to the 3 hole, which would be ideal. Throw LaPorta in to the mix and a middle of the order of Sizemore, LaPorta and Martinez would look very nice.

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Quote:

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Listening to ESPN 850 this morning...I'm STUNNED at the amount of DUMB fans in Cleveland.

They all think they could pay CC and the Dolans are terrible...blah blah blah.

I hate Cleveland media and sometimes the fans.




You hate the fans because they're not resigned to the fate that we're never going to keep our superstars?

IMO the Dolans haven't done enough outside of baseball to raise revenues.

I know I'm gonna get the "Big market" speech about this but the Red Sox are handcuffed by Fenway Park...there's only so many luxury suites they can put in. So what did they do? They looked at other avenues to raise money, including buying an interest in Roush Racing (hence Roush Fenway).

There was an article about this on either NASCAR.com or ESPN.com about a year ago on this topic.

How are we expected to compete if we can't re-sign our stars? At best, we'll be like the Twins and Athletics...always respectable, even good, but never great.

That's a tough pill to swallow.




I think you post sometimes just to read your posts. Seriously, we are a small market team, deal with it. Trying to compare us to Boston shows your ignorance. Boston is a large market and the merchandise alone dwarfs the money the Indians have brought in.

Dolon has brought the tv broadcast in house which has brought up revenue, and they sold the naming rights to the field the moment they were able to. There is not much else they can do, Ammo.

The fact is CC was too much of a liability, they tried to work out a contract and from what I heard the $$/yr was right it was the # of years that was the hang up. The Indians can't lock up a large contract for more that 3-4 years, especially one on the 20 mil/yr threshold. CC wants a 6 year deal. If the Indians agree to a 6 year deal for that much money and CC gets hurt, we are screwed till the end of that contract and probably be stuck at the bottom.

Look at Hafner, if he can't learn to hit we are hurting big time because we have a lot of money tied up with a guy that may have been using performance enhancers.




Well they COULD invest in a racing team like the Red Sox did...

I'm not talking market size when I talk about the Red Sox. Look up Fenway Sports Group sometime.

Those who aren't looking to innovate aren't trying. The Indians are merely copying already established ideas (Steinbrenner was innovative with the YES Network!).

Does that say the Indians' business ventures would bring in the revenue Fenway Sports Group's does? Hell no...but it would bring in the extra revenue that would let us compete financially on a level higher than we are currently.

I'm not ignorant, despite what you may think.

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Here's what indians.com said....

http://cleveland.indians.mlb.com/news/ar...sp&c_id=cle

The last linchpin of the deal is the player to be named, and that player will likely be the second-most prized acquisition for the Indians.

Green, 21, was the Brewers' Minor League Player of the Year last season. This season, he is batting .295 with 10 homers and 54 RBIs in 81 games at Class A Brevard County.

Brantley, 21, is a speedy center fielder who is batting .324 with four homers, 34 RBIs and 25 stolen bases in 74 games at Huntsville.

--------

If this is the case, I'm taking Brantley. A speedy leadoff guy who hits for average and steals bases is exactly what we need. It would allow us to drop Grady in to the 3 hole, which would be ideal. Throw LaPorta in to the mix and a middle of the order of Sizemore, LaPorta and Martinez would look very nice.




I agree with you there.

Give me average and a guy who can hit leadoff and run.

I'm hoping, PRAYING Hafner's problems are all because of his shoulder. His size has not shrunk at all. I'm positive Martinez will be back to form next year.

I'm mostly worried about the rest of the squad...Peralta, Cabrera, Garko, Francisco, Gutierrez, etc. If these guys can't get back to form we're a 3rd place team at best.

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If I was in your guys position I would definitley take Brantley. He is someone who could potentially take over the lead-off spot allowing you to move Grady to the 3 spot where he would be much better utilized, and would, IMO help you guys produce more runs. Grady can be a lead-off hitter, but with his power there is no doubt the Tribe would be better off with him further down. Not to mention, Brantley is in AA while Green is only in A.

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That's why baseball, IMO, is an inferior sport. Teams in bigger markets typically have an unfair advantage. That's why it's great to see a team like Tampa playing so well this year, and the Tribe playing so well last. We bring up our prospects, and just sign a smaller FA here or there.

Without a salary cap or restrictions, baseball will never be as fun to follow or have as level a playing field as other sports such as the NFL or NBA.


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Well they COULD invest in a racing team like the Red Sox did...

I'm not talking market size when I talk about the Red Sox. Look up Fenway Sports Group sometime.

Those who aren't looking to innovate aren't trying. The Indians are merely copying already established ideas (Steinbrenner was innovative with the YES Network!).

Does that say the Indians' business ventures would bring in the revenue Fenway Sports Group's does? Hell no...but it would bring in the extra revenue that would let us compete financially on a level higher than we are currently.

I'm not ignorant, despite what you may think.




Boston still has a lot more money to invest in other ventures that the Indians don't have. If it was that simple Ammo, every team in MLB would be doing it. We were one win from the world series last year and we had almost the exact same team.

But:

CC had a bad start.
Asdrubel was batting .180
Peralta is batting .250
Hafner is god awful
Bentencourt looks human this year
The Bullpeen is awful this year
Borowski walked a tight rope all year but still got the Save, this year he couldn't.
Westbrook got hurt
Carmona got hurt
Victor got hurt

We trade CC, get (4) prospects, and we come back at it next year. Lee, Carmona, Westbrook, Lafey, Sowers isn't a bad starting rotation.

If you really want to complain tell MLB to get a salary cap and have profit sharing. Until then we will have to build up for a run, then rebuild, then build up for a run again. The way you do it is to continue to make the right choices in the farm so when a guy like CC leaves you have others to fill the void.


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Without a salary cap or restrictions, baseball will never be as fun to follow or have as level a playing field as other sports such as the NFL or NBA.




I agree with you about the NFL, but not the NBA. IMO, the NBA is inferior because there are too many teams. The talent level is terrible in the NBA. But, once again, JMHO.

But with baseball, there are not only too many teams, but with no cap, you pretty much know who's going to be in the race every year. Heck, at the All-Star break, you can take a lot of teams and just end their season right there. That's no fun.

I love baseball and I follow the Tribe because I like them and because I love the sport. But what I love about the Browns (besides the team) is the fact that every year there is a distinct possibility that any team could really shoot up the charts. Yeah, there are "dynasties", but that's more from good management than it is from stacking a team.


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We trade CC, get (4) prospects, and we come back at it next year. Lee, Carmona, Westbrook, Lafey, Sowers isn't a bad starting rotation.





I agree with everything you said execpt one thing.....I'm not sold on Sowers, The kid has to develop another pitch and he needs to learn how to use them all during the cource of a game. Thank god we have other options in Buffalo and I believe we will make a move for a FA starting pitcher in the off season.

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We'll trade you Bronson Arroyo. Him for Grady. Straight up. It's a tough trade for us to make, but I feel it'd be in the best interest of the club. You guys have to be all over that deal.

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We trade CC, get (4) prospects, and we come back at it next year. Lee, Carmona, Westbrook, Lafey, Sowers isn't a bad starting rotation.





I agree with everything you said execpt one thing.....I'm not sold on Sowers, The kid has to develop another pitch and he needs to learn how to use them all during the cource of a game. Thank god we have other options in Buffalo and I believe we will make a move for a FA starting pitcher in the off season.




Filling out the rotation is a minor detail IMO. A 5th starter can be found just about anywhere (from a trade, to a modest FA signing, to AAA). What is the big concern is the bullpen. Without a return to form with some of those guys, could be another rough season.

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We'll trade you Bronson Arroyo. Him for Grady. Straight up. It's a tough trade for us to make, but I feel it'd be in the best interest of the club. You guys have to be all over that deal.







I think were gonna pass on that trade,

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Filling out the rotation is a minor detail IMO. A 5th starter can be found just about anywhere (from a trade, to a modest FA signing, to AAA). What is the big concern is the bullpen. Without a return to form with some of those guys, could be another rough season.





agreed, the 5th starter is normally the best of whats left after spring training or the best after injury, but to me hopefully Sowers isnt the best of whats left, my question is are the Indians that sold on sowers thinking he can make the rotation next year so there using him for spot starts, or are they calling him up only to protect the other younger less major leauge level pitchers we have at Buffalo, maybe it's a little of both, no sence tossing them into the majors when sowers has already been here.

we need a solid legit closer for next year or were back to a hope & a prayer in the 9th.

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instead of ala Bartolo Colon (Sizemore, Brandon Phillips).





Don't forget this year's All Star Game Starter, Cliff Lee, was in that same deal.


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instead of ala Bartolo Colon (Sizemore, Brandon Phillips).





Don't forget this year's All Star Game Starter, Cliff Lee, was in that same deal.




That has to be one of the greatest trades of all time.




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instead of ala Bartolo Colon (Sizemore, Brandon Phillips).





Don't forget this year's All Star Game Starter, Cliff Lee, was in that same deal.




That has to be one of the greatest trades of all time.




Really the only mistake that Shapiro has made was letting Brandon Phillips walk.

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we need a solid legit closer for next year or were back to a hope & a prayer in the 9th.




I agree. However, look around the league....a legit closer isn't easy to find. When they become free agents, the original team signs them or someone offers crazy money to them (see B.J. Ryan - $12/year).

You really need to grow your own closer. How is that done? I have no idea.


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Without a salary cap or restrictions, baseball will never be as fun to follow or have as level a playing field as other sports such as the NFL or NBA.




I agree with you about the NFL, but not the NBA. IMO, the NBA is inferior because there are too many teams. The talent level is terrible in the NBA. But, once again, JMHO.

But with baseball, there are not only too many teams, but with no cap, you pretty much know who's going to be in the race every year. Heck, at the All-Star break, you can take a lot of teams and just end their season right there. That's no fun.

I love baseball and I follow the Tribe because I like them and because I love the sport. But what I love about the Browns (besides the team) is the fact that every year there is a distinct possibility that any team could really shoot up the charts. Yeah, there are "dynasties", but that's more from good management than it is from stacking a team.




I couldn't disagree more.I believe baseball has just as much parity as any other sport. Just look at the central the last 5 seasons. every team except the royals have either won the division or been in the playoffs. as of today there are 16 teams at the .500 mark or better. last year we we could have easily had a colorado vs cleveland world series. this year it could be tampa vs milwaukee. just becuase the indians stink this year, doesn't mean there isn't parity. heck the yankees havn't won since 2000.

team slike the pirates, royals, reds, and nationals stink year after year becuase of poor management, not because of the system. look at the nfl, you have perennial losers the lions, cardinals, and 49ers.

the indians could be back in the mix next year. with almost 30 million coming off the books, the indians could actually make a splash in the free agent market.

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they gave him every opportunity to succeed. he couldn't hit a lick up here. I believe he was out of options anyhow.

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Winning the division is one thing, but winning it all? That's something else.

IMO, the reason teams stink is they have a solid player, the player gets bought in FA by a rich team. That's tough to do when there's a cap.

JMHO


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A Letter to Indians Fans from Paul Dolan



Paul Dolan
Indians President
Dear Fans,

Thank you for your many years of loyalty to and support of the Cleveland Indians. Because you are vitally important to the success of the Indians, I want to communicate the thinking behind our recent player personnel decisions, including our decision to trade C.C. Sabathia, directly to you.

After keeping the strong nucleus from our 2007 playoff team intact, we all had high expectations entering the 2008 season. Unfortunately, the team did not play up to our expectations and we sustained injuries to key players within our starting lineup and rotation. Due to our team's performance, as well as the significant opportunity to add talent that can impact the short-term and long-term success of the organization, we decided to trade C.C.

We did not take our decision to trade C.C. lightly. He has been an integral member of the Indians organization and the Cleveland community for the past eight years. We all shared the pleasure of watching C.C. develop from a young draft pick into a mature team leader and one of the best pitchers in Major League Baseball. After re-signing C.C. in 2005 to a contract that extended into what would have been his first two free agent years, we were able to share in and enjoy his 2007 Cy Young Award winning season as a Cleveland Indian, a performance that propelled our club to the AL Central Division Championship.

We made extensive attempts to secure C.C.'s future in Cleveland by signing him to a contract extension. In fact, we offered C.C. a top of the market contract that included the highest annual salary in the history of the Indians organization. Unfortunately, due to C.C.'s desire to test the free agent market, we determined that trading C.C. provided the best outcome for the long-term success of the organization. By trading C.C., we capitalized on an opportunity to infuse upper level talent into our organization that can contribute to our on-field success for many years rather than risk losing C.C. for only two draft picks with a distant and uncertain future.

We remain enthusiastic about the steps we have taken towards fulfilling our organizational mission to build and sustain a championship-caliber team. Our minor league system served as the catalyst for our 2007 playoff run and continues to develop exciting, young players. We look forward to the opportunity of watching many more young players blossom into Major League stars as Cleveland Indians.

We have confidence that the tremendously difficult decision to trade C.C. will enhance our ability to put a winning club on the field to make our loyal fans and the entire Cleveland community proud. On behalf of my family and the entire Cleveland Indians organization, I appreciate your continued support and look forward to seeing you at a game in the near future. Go Tribe!

Sincerely,

Paul Dolan

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I think I may now be leaning toward wanting this Brantley kid instead of Green. The guy is fast, steals bases, and sounds like good leadoff hitter so Wedge can finally have some common sense and move Grady into the #3 spot.

I also read somewhere he has excellent plate discipline, hitting .324 with 39BB to 18K's, that's pretty right there.

I also want him because he's already in AA while Green is still in A ball.


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I think I may now be leaning toward wanting this Brantley kid instead of Green. The guy is fast, steals bases, and sounds like good leadoff hitter so Wedge can finally have some common sense and move Grady into the #3 spot.

I also read somewhere he has excellent plate discipline, hitting .324 with 39BB to 18K's, that's pretty right there.

I also want him because he's already in AA while Green is still in A ball.




Green has much more potential, espically if he ends up at second. I'd rather have Green, because we already have a Brantley in our system in Crowe.


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Anyone actuallySEEN Dolan at a game?

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I think I may now be leaning toward wanting this Brantley kid instead of Green. The guy is fast, steals bases, and sounds like good leadoff hitter so Wedge can finally have some common sense and move Grady into the #3 spot.

I also read somewhere he has excellent plate discipline, hitting .324 with 39BB to 18K's, that's pretty right there.

I also want him because he's already in AA while Green is still in A ball.




Green has much more potential, espically if he ends up at second. I'd rather have Green, because we already have a Brantley in our system in Crowe.




Exactly... We don't have a 2B prospect right now unless you consider Jared Goedert one and he is only in A ball. If Green can move to 2B then we have a 2B that can hit for a good average and who obviously has some power (15 HR's last season and 10 already this season.) Brantley would be a nice addition but the way Crowe is hitting the ball right now he is way ahead of Brantley from the developement stand-point. Also to something someone said earlier about Blake being resigned because of moving Green to 2B...No! Blake will be gone by the end of July and we will find out what we have in Andy Marte for the remainder of the season. Wes Hodges is likely the future at 3B. He can be a .280/20/90 type of player for us IMO. Maybe I am biased towards Hodges because we share first names and I have kept an eye on him ever since he was a freshman at Georgia Tech. Hodges is one of those true baseball players that will fight for everything and give 110%. Once batted left-handed just so he could stay in the line-up after breaking his right hand.

Anyways... If Green is part of this deal then that is great. If Bryson keeps progressing and we end up grooming out future closer even better. He already has a plus fastball (94-97) and a MLB-ready power slider. Curve and Change need some work if he ends up becoming a starter.

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Forget to add this to the last post...

Who's next? Blake, Byrd, Peralta, Delluci, or someone else? Who could be the suitors?

I think Blake will be moved to either the Rays or Dodgers and Peralta could be on the minds of the Dodgers because of the loss of Furcal.

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I think I may now be leaning toward wanting this Brantley kid instead of Green. The guy is fast, steals bases, and sounds like good leadoff hitter so Wedge can finally have some common sense and move Grady into the #3 spot.

I also read somewhere he has excellent plate discipline, hitting .324 with 39BB to 18K's, that's pretty right there.

I also want him because he's already in AA while Green is still in A ball.




Green has much more potential, espically if he ends up at second. I'd rather have Green, because we already have a Brantley in our system in Crowe.




I forgot about Crowe.

Still wondering when he's going to get the AAA promotion. Last I checked he was hitting around .330 in Akron.

Even so, does he project as the type of lead-off hitter Brantley does? Crowe seems like the prototypical #2 guy to me. A guy who hits to all fields, can move runners and get on base. He can steal bases but he's not a guy that can run at will like Brantley (25 SB's in 74 games and a 81% steal percentage). Brantley has 40-50+ SB type potential and he has a great eye at the plate as someone mentioned (nearly 40 BB's and less than 20 K's).

I guess the question becomes do we want to move Laporta back to 1st base? If we do, then we probably take Brantley to fill the hole in the OF. If we're keeping LaPorta in the OF, then we probably take Green to plug in to either 2nd or 3rd.

I just think a leadoff guy like Brantley is much harder to find. He's been lights out at AA and has the speed (and bat) you covet at the leadoff position. Green projects better as a run producer but given that Grady could move down in the lineup, I think Brantley is probably more valuable to us given the circumstances (of it allowing Grady to fill the 3 spot).

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Anyone actuallySEEN Dolan at a game?




No.

Have you ever seen Randy Lerner at a game?

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you had a good run Hank.
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Anyone actuallySEEN Dolan at a game?




No.

Have you ever seen Randy Lerner at a game?




Yes.

I had loge seats and we were 2 loges away from Randy.

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so what is everyone's thoughts on what will happen with LaPorta? Will he be moved to 1B/DH? I think the best move is to 1B. Garko while he may hit for a higher average than this year in upcoming years has zero power for a 1B. Weglarz and Crowe seem to be two very intriguing outfield prospects and Beau Mills seems to be the future 1B/DH. If we move LaPorta to 1B/DH we have our choice in about two years how we want to work out lineup in regards to Mills and LaPorta...

If Mills and Weglarz develop into the hitters everyone sees them as being we would have 3 high power guys to go along with Sizemore and Martinez. This is two or three years down the road but it is something to think about.

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Quote:



We trade CC, get (4) prospects, and we come back at it next year. Lee, Carmona, Westbrook, Lafey, Sowers isn't a bad starting rotation.





Westbrook could be a problem too.Seems like it take a lot of guys 2 years to recover from T- J surgery

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Quote:

Quote:



We trade CC, get (4) prospects, and we come back at it next year. Lee, Carmona, Westbrook, Lafey, Sowers isn't a bad starting rotation.





Westbrook could be a problem too.Seems like it take a lot of guys 2 years to recover from T- J surgery




Huff is doing very well though in AAA... He is on the fast track. You never know maybe Adam Miller finally kicks the injury bug and gets his chance with the Tribe.

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Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Anyone actuallySEEN Dolan at a game?




No.

Have you ever seen Randy Lerner at a game?




Yes.

I had loge seats and we were 2 loges away from Randy.




Good for you.

My point is because you don't see them doesn't mean they are there. And why does it matter anyway?


you had a good run Hank.
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It doesn't. It was a small joke (bad one apperently with no smiley face) about what Dolan said in the article. Sorry

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I've read through this thread and I have a good idea of what you guys think this trade means for the Tribe but as a Brewer fan I would love to hear the opinion of people that don't live hear in Milwaukee what you think this means for the Crew.

Do you think this trade puts them in the drivers seat in the NL.?

If so do you think they can compete with the teams in the AL?

Personally I am hoping for a Brewers and Rays World Series. Of course with my team coming out on top.

I don't expect us to keep either CC or Sheets so it is really just a run at this year.

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Quote:

It doesn't. It was a small joke (bad one apperently with no smiley face) about what Dolan said in the article. Sorry




My bad...


you had a good run Hank.
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Dolan and Shaprio could make a run at either C.C. or Sheets next off-season too... I would take 4 prospects and Sheets. However, the Yankees, Cubs, Red Sox, and other big market teams will likely outbid the Indians.

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