DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Did any of you like Belichick when he was here?

Did any of you like BB when he was here? Should this be in Tailgate or PF?

I was young and didn't understand football at the time, but it was boring to watch. As I've grown older, I respect what he tried to do in Cleveland. Most of the time it failed, but you can't fault the man for trying. As I'm learning more and more about football I actually appreciate what he tried to do even if the records didn't show it. He was trying to make us into an NFC team.

When he took over the team, he had a worse situation than when Crennel took over Baghdad Butch's regime. Ironically, both first-year coaches (Crennel/Belichick) finished with 6-10 records. In '91, Crennel was even considered as a HC candidate for the Cleveland job. And actually both coaches had decent reviews after their first years.

What I've read is that BB developed a bigger, faster stronger team even that first year. Even though their win-loss record was bad the first year of BB got a 2-win team playing competitively. He made the DL a strength of the team. That DL won us several games on its own.

As the years passed BB had a NFC-type team that could maul with the best of them. In '92, '93 and '94 the team beat GB, SF and Dal in the regular season at a time when the NFC was dominant. Our problem was Houston and Pgh. We split with Pitt up until '94 but we had problems with Hou throughout. But even div. games were close--even against the Bengals. In fact I'd say the Bengals had better success against Pgh in the '90s than we did, even allowing for 3 years of not being in the league.

I think he was tactically gifted but at the time he came in he was young and still had a lot to learn. He had yet to master the nuances of the game like he has now.

Fans criticize him for getting Vinny but he had a good release. He may have envisioned Vinny as a Phil Simms and Metcalf as Joe Morris but things didn't quite work. People were mad about the Metcalf up the middle thing but it worked in NY. He was trying to build a system--and apparently young coaching talent such as Ferentz, Pioli, Hill, Savage and Saban understood and learned from the master.

In his first year, before the media turned Cleveland against him, he was well liked. But he wasn't perfect and tried to be like Parcells and nobody, esp. the vets, bought it.

One thing is Belichick had Tom Brady in NE, and he was even better than Simms. Vinny wasn't quite as smart as either but the prototype was better. He got rid of WRs Langhorne and Slaughter, who went on to have 1 or 2 good years afterwards. Fans reacted with good reason, but in the end BB was correct. He was trying to build a system where if any cog went down someone could step in and do well.

You even saw it in NE when Brady was replaced with Fassel in the Miami game. Miami only put up 28 points because they're familiar with playing NE. Fassel even had a few touchdowns himself once Brady came out. A cog in the machine.

Here's a great link to BB's time in Cleveland:

Bil Belichick's Cleveland Purgatory

The roll call of villains in Cleveland sports history is a lengthy one, but during his tenure as head coach of the Browns, Bill Belichick gave away little to anyone else in the city's gallery of rogues. Despite transforming the Browns from one of the worst teams in the league into a legitimate contender within four seasons, the coach's popularity proved the inverse of his team's on-field fortunes. Belichick was widely disliked by his second year, and almost universally despised by his third. A playoff run in 1994 failed to win over the fans, some of whom were heard to grumble that it was kind of a shame the Browns were doing so well, because it meant the coach wouldn't be fired. Shortly after the franchise relocated to Baltimore, the coach was fired, albeit too late for his many Cleveland detractors to derive any enjoyment out of it.

Obviously, Bill Belichick has bounced back. Yet the question remains: how could a football mind so plainly gifted fail so miserably in Cleveland? The superficial analysis says that his regime was doomed from the start by circumstances not of its own making; sucked down in the undertow of the problems that plagued the last years of the original Browns franchise- mere collateral damage from the implosion that rocked the city to its core. And there's a grain of truth to the sentiment. But it's a little bit more complicated than that.

Yes

I liked him while he was here. I think if he wasn't dealt such a bad deal by the ownership at the time, he could have turned the Browns into a similar form of what you see in New England. Some of the fans and media didn't like him because he had to get rid of Bernie, Slaughter and many others, who had brought us to the brink of the Super Bowl... but were past their prime. Sure we all loved these players and appreciated what they had done for our team in the past. But it was time to re-group in Cleveland and Bill knew it. In fact... if you remember, Many had picked the Browns to go to the Super Bowl that last year. Then Art announced the team was moving and the whole season fell apart.

Asian,, you are going back a long way... but I'll try to answer as honestly as I can. Those were, for the most part, horrible years so I've attempted to block them out

Anyway, I have to say, that when Modell first hired Belichick, I was somewhat pleased. He came from a winning program and seemed to have the credentials to succeed.. So from the onset, I was ok with him.

I have to say this also, he was uninspiring in interviews.. Boring to be exact.

But I could live with that if he was able to turn the team around.

This is where I depart from conventional thinking. I DO NOT believe that the team was in as bad a shape as when Butch left.

You have to remember, that the 5 years prior to Belichick getting here, we went to 3 AFC championship games and lost.

We haf a core of receivers and a QB that could get the job done. We had a RB that was solid (mack) We had an Oline that needed refreshing and a D that needed a piece or two.. But for the most part, we weren't near as bad as when Savage and RAC took over..

We had no QB, no Oline, no Dline, No secondary, weak LB's, weak Running game, we had a TE that's still around (heiden) and our special teams consisted of Northcutt.. No, we were much worse off in 2005 than in 1990)

It's just my opinion, but I don't think Belichick had that much rebuilding that was needed.. But he did it anyway.

Again, JMO!

As for what he did to this team, well, I think if you go and ask him, he'll admit that not working and playing nice with Kosar was maybe his biggest downfall here. He turned the fans off with that move.

We've heard stories of his underhanded tactics back then, none of which I've seen proven, but there are a few that rub me the wrong way.

Like having the Video guys link together a series of Kosars worst plays in an effort to show Modell that Kosar was done..

I'm not sure if that's true, but now that you see the kinda things that Belichick is willing to do to win (spygate) then you can safely assume that it COULD be true.

So, while I started out thinking that he could get the job done, I quickly found myself asking,, Why the hell did we hire this drone?

I basically wanted him gone before the Kosar fiasco,, but when that happened, it sealed the deal for me...

So, No, for most of the time he was here, I didn't like him.

thanks for the mature, well-reasoned response.

when I was younger and didn't understand football much I thought he was a jerk. I still think personality wise he's too cold for me. that being said i'd still sit down and talk football with him.

The '90 team was garbage, moreso than the '04 team with BD. BD may have been a bad master, but as a gameday coach he made some good decisions. He actually was good at mastering ST and knew challenges. I think he won like 15 or 20 challenges in his 4 years here.

The '90 team beat Pgh in that first game, so it wasn't a total loss. That team lost NINE (9) games by double-digit margins.
462 points given up.
29 passing TDs.

Belichick comes in in '91:
298 pts given up, a total improvement of 164 points. That's pretty awesome.
But the O wasn't that much better...228 pts to 293...Belichick used 6 of his 11 draft picks on defense that year. E-Rock and Jim Jones. But he tried on O with Ed King and Michael Jackson.

Under BD to RAC...
the defense improved from 390 PA to 301 PA--24th to 11th.
But the O got worse!
276 PF under BD to 232 PF under RAC his first year...a decrease from 27th to 32nd..dead last in 2005.

I love the tactical stuff in football--the scouting of players, the actual gameday stuff moreso than salary cap considerations. That's why I'd never play madden in franchise mode.

If I met Bill I'd try to get as much out of him about football on a general basis. That way he wouldn't feel uncomfortable talking about his Cleveland or NE experience. I'd ask him about the prominence of 3 Safety packages and the importance of having a RB that can do it all.

I believe Belichick has said in interviews himself, that he dealt with the media poorly in Cleveland, and wasn't much better with his relationships with the players.

He tried to be a hard-ass, my way or the highway, and it didn't work. He learned from the experience, and that is in part of what makes him successful today.

He had a QB in Kosar, that knew the team and it's players as good if not better than any coach they had, and rather than using that knowledge to his advantage, he shut Kosar out and did it his way.

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I believe Belichick has said in interviews himself, that he dealt with the media poorly in Cleveland, and wasn't much better with his relationships with the players.

He tried to be a hard-ass, my way or the highway, and it didn't work. He learned from the experience, and that is in part of what makes him successful today.

He had a QB in Kosar, that knew the team and it's players as good if not better than any coach they had, and rather than using that knowledge to his advantage, he shut Kosar out and did it his way.

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that pretty much sums up my feelings..all I would add is my personnel feelings is if Bill would have won super bowls as he did in NE the Cleveland media would have been alittle easier on him, but when ya lose and your a donkeys behind to the media they blow everything up 10x...I know hard to imagion the media blowing anything out of perportion.

bottom line winning cures everything....he didnt here he has in NE

Yes !....and that is Not a hindsight answer....I always Appreciated that Belichick was actually a player's coach and not a media one....It has been my opinion that your coach should also have that @sshloe streak in him and Bill had that as well....Great Head Coaches need time to develop and a solid system to to that in....At that point he had neither in Cleveland....I wonder what might have been IF things had happened differently ....Who knows we might of had a few SB rings by now and both Belichick and Modell would be loved in Cleveland today.....

Asian,, you are looking at statistics and thinking that proves that the 90 team was worse than any team BD put on the field. And to a point, that's true I guess.

But there is a difference. What was the reason that the 1990 offense wasn't as successful as it could have been?

Before you answer, I know you were a youngster then and you can't possible remember this.. But if you go back and talk to some of us that have been around, I bet you will hear this:

We had skilled players, but we coudn't move the ball because of a beat to death Oline.

When Savage got here, he didn't even have a core of competitant Offensive players..

Who was our starting QB in 05, who was our stud receiver in 05, who was our stud RB in 05? See what I'm getting at. So not having a line in 05 didn't help, but it wasn't the only problem.

In 1990, we had a QB, RB and receivers that could get the job done if only we could have had a line.

In 1990 we had some solid Defensive players as well. We certainly needed to add a few pieces.. Matthews was getting older, Dixon and Minnifield weren't youngsters anymore but all could still play. We had Eddie the Assasin and a few other guys that had ability..

In 2005, we had a weak Dline, our strongest LB was Davis (arguably, our weakest today), we had Anthony Henry but nothing else and Jones was coming off of an injury.

See my point yet?

So while stats may show that the team in 1990 was worse, it's not a fair representation.. at least not in my opinion... for what that's worth anyway.

Stats are for losers

LOL I really wasn't trying to "get you" ! I was just pointing out a few things that, given your age, it would have been impossible for you to know.

Now you know!

I always thought he got a bad rap....I was more on his side then against for sure

I lived in NY since 1968...loved sports and lets face it there was no ESPN so reading the sports pages like 5 times a day is where I got my info. Not much about my Browns but more than enough about the Giants and Jets.

I was excited when Belicheck became our coach in the mid 90's. He was considered a Defensive genius here and that really excited me. But then I got excited before that when another Defensive genius, Bud Carson became our coach. But I figured Bill was young and up and coming. If you look at his tree planted here it was something to get excited about.

Savage, Saban, Mangini (hehe...ball boy) among others...got their start here.

Just remember he put a lot of team together that Billick won in 2000 with. Billick didn't put that together in the 2 years he was running the Ravens - and again Oz I think got his start with Bellicheck???

Lot a good came from him...well Touchdown Tommie not a bright moment (was that Bill's pick?) but most of it was him to bad it was for the Ravens and not the Browns!

JMHO

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Lot a good came from him...well Touchdown Tommie not a bright moment (was that Bill's pick?)

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Yes

eo, I think if you go back and look at the last Browns team that Belichick coached in 95, then look at the roster and front office of the Ravens team that eventually won a superbowl, you will find only a couple of things that had the Belichick stamp on it..

Ozzie and Phil, and just a few players left over from the Cleveland days.

It could be said that because Ozzie and Phil picked players that eventually were the center of A Ravens SB winning team and that Belichick hired Ozzie and Phil, then you could conclude that Belichick had something to do with that SB win,.

Personally, I think that's a real stretch.

But thats JMO I really don't feel like digging up data that supports that.. it's just a memory thing.

"5 times? Got a problem with information retention?"

No I use to poop a lot back then -

"eo, I think if you go back and look at the last Browns team that Belichick coached in 95"

I stand corrected...I forgot that Marchibroda was the HC from 96 season - so many from that first draft felt like Browns players...Ogden, and Priest Holmes (udfa) - Burnett was a favorite of mine - yeah just a few of the 95 Browns were there in 2000. Oz and PS get most of the credit for that team's talent.

Holy smokes,, I knew something that Eo didn't...

It's a first,,, I tell you, it's a first

Just kidding man,,, if I don't pull your leg at least once a year, I fear you may feel unloved

ummm thats not his leg

Dang

did you root for burnett and vinny when they were ravens? I liked Everitt even when he was a Rat because he wore a Browns bandanna and a browns t-shirt under his Ravens jersey. I have a pic of it somewhere.

BB had his faults but I loved watching the DL. Carson ran a 4-3, but it was a one-gap attacking style. Not a big deal, but the players were old BB ran a 4-3 two-gap style and drafted bigger DL (Bill Johnson). The only problem was that MDP was a one-gapper and he would rush the QB instead of staying in contain and filling the gap. MDP rushing allowed the RB with the ball to run by him without a thought.

Also, when BB came here, the bookends (Burnett/Pleasant) had to put on weight and go from 260-265 to about 300. James Jones was 300, 310. The DL cost some serious coin back then but that was the strength of the team, like the OL is today.

This is your base:
LDE Pleasant
LDT MDP/Bill Johnson ('92?)
RDT Jones/Ball (around '92-93)
RDE Burnett
WLB David Brandon/Mike Caldwell?
MLB Mike Johnson/Cedric Figaro
SLB Clay Matthews

In a 3-4 look, BB used the following:

LDE Jones
NT(!) Ball
RDE MDP (because he could one-gap)
LOLB Caldwell
LILB Johnson/Figaro?
RILB Brandon?
ROLB Matthews

In one situation, he used James Jones as a Fullback in the 1992 season and he scored a TD!

If I have the lineups wrong forgive me

You just proved my point about the team that Belichick got in 1990 was better than the team the Savage and RAC got in 2005..

Did I say thank you yet? LOL

The Cleveland Browns....
are doin' fine....
except its 4th and....
nintey-nice....
Belicheck....
has got a play....
it's the same one....
he's run all day....

WE CAN WIN WITH
METCALF UP THE MIDDLE
METCALF UP THE MIDDLE
METCALF UP THE MIDDLE

WE CAN WIN WITH
METCALF UP THE MIDDLE
METCALF UP THE MIDDLE
METCALF UP THE MIDDLE

Yes!

He built a strong, agressive, and hard hitting team. People could never get over the fact that he released Bernie.

"did you root for burnett and vinny when they were ravens?"

I was simply like a lost 4 year old in a very large department store.

after a small amount of time I simply stayed in the toy department and mused myself.

I didn't know what to do after the move. I followed their draft, I followed the players a bit. I hated Modell and the TEAM RAVENS! But grew cold to NFL football all together and for the next few years did not really follow the sport and spent all my Sundays coaching --- some years up to 3 teams in the youth leagues...and when not coaching, announcing games over the PA system at the home field.

Even after the Browns came back I didn't dive into the whole NFL thing. Just like a teenager who had their heart broken - I wasn't sure if I wanted to get involved in a relationship again. Oh I started going to Sports bars and catching the games every now and then. Following the team...and my time came after the 2000 season when I got hooked lock stock and barrel.

Oh and all my Travel Football Teams name? Browns of course

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In hindsight, Bernie was getting to the end of his service life.

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Thats on the verg of blasphmy...


I dont know if it's becuase he did it, or just the way it was done.

Asia, I don't think anyone would really dispute that in hindsight, what Belichick was doing was building a winner here.. looking at it now, with the success of the Pats, it might have been here had he been left to his own devices..

But even Belichick has admitted that he made mistakes here that he learned from when he went to NE.

As for Bernie,, Honestly, I don't know if the guy was at the end of his rope or not.

Actually, nobody does because if you look at it, he only got into a handful of games once he was gone from the Browns..

In Dallas, he was behind Aikman and in Miam, he was behind Marino.

But here's what I do remember.

Bernie was released on a Monday. He did his normal Monday night gig on radio somewhere on Rockside..

Then the next day, he was off to Dallas where they signed him to a contract on the spot.

I remember three things from the situation..

1. Bernie had #19 here in Cleveland, but Jason Garrett had 19 down in big D.. Garrett offered the number to Bernie, but Bernie declined.. Instead taking I think it was number 20.

2. Garrett officially started the next game (aikman was injured and out) But Bernie came in after a very very short while..

3. I think it was either Bernies first pass as a Cowboy, or one of his first passes on his first possession,, he threw a slant to Mike Irvin over the middle,, lead him perfectly and Irvin went in for a TD.. I think a rather long one at that..

I remember the announcer saying,, yeah,, Diminshed skills.... LOL

Cracked me up..

And it angered further the fans of the Browns..

So, was Kosar done? Did he still have anything in the tank? I think the answer is he at least had enough for that year. Probably more.

Testeverdi was a physical specimen.. I've met him, the freaking guy was cut man.. no fooling.. And a nicer guy you will never meet. Funny and honest to a fault was my impression..

But honestly,, when it came to smarts,, Bernie could eat his lunch.

Physically, Kosar was a lamo,, no question about it. But what made Bernie such a weapon was his brain...

With the right protection, he could have played another 3 or 4 years..

Had Belichick taken his head from his butt, he might have seen that all he need to do on Offense was get Bernie a line and a couple of receivers and an average RB and he'd get them in the right place to score..

Then Belichick could tinker with his D all he wanted to shut teams down..

I blame Belichick for NOT using the tools that were right there in front of him.

My 2 cents

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But even Belichick has admitted that he made mistakes here that he learned from when he went to NE.

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Like not cheating...

Seems he didn't learn that lesson very well

I liked him in '94, but we were winning in '94.