DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Browns Interview Knapp for OC

From what I have seen, Brees has always had an okay arm. I think that smaller guys [height wise] get labled as having a weaker arm. I will say that I don't think his arm is great, but it's okay.

Another thing............I know you don't feel this way, but I wanna clarify something. Many people confuse guys being able to throw a good deep ball as having a great arm. That's one of the easier throws to make. The guys who have the big arms are the guys who can throw the deep out on a rope. It's the hardest throw in football. I still don't see Brees throwing many of those.

A lot of people don't like him around these parts, but Vinny T. had one of the greatest arms I ever saw. And that is why Parcells brought him to NY. Vinny was able to make that throw.....well.....any throw......in the windy conditions of New York.

Even more off topic.......but it's your fault, Mourg. You got me thinking about quarterback's arms. <img src="/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

The guy who threw the prettiest pass I ever saw was Warren Moon. I remember watching him at home games and it was amazing to watch how his passes sailed or zipped through the wind in Cleveland. Man, it was a beautiful thing to see, except for the fact that he was playing against us. But even still.........you would have to admire those throws. Kinda took my breath away.

In case (and I should know you wouldn't have been) were referring to the myth that the WCO wouldn't work here because we're a cold weather team. Hopefully that myth has been fully put to rest.

Kevin Shaffer was better in the West Coast offense and Fraley was in Philly's West Coast offense most of his career, so maybe switching could also improve pur offensive line ? Just a thought <img src="/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Funny you mention Dorsey....he could probably run it better than Frye.

It fits his skills.

why has that myth/FACT been fully put to rest??? and i aint read diddly of this thread so no clue whats happend before ... but what u said caught my eye ..

why would we want a "WCO" in C-town?? just curious as to why and WHEN that myth was dispelled .. clue me in .. i always like being enlightened .. <img src="/images/graemlins/naughtydevil.gif" alt="" />

If your asking about the WCO in cold weather cities (which is what I think he was refering to ) then look no further than GB, Philly and seattle.

And Denver.

hmmm 3 of 4 are playoff contenders...hmmm

actually I think GB was also a contender in the very bad NFC

San Diego did not have the recievers to throw downfield, so they did not throw downfield. Brees has an OK NFL arm, what he lacks in pure arm strength, he makes up with accuracy. With the right routes, he looks pretty good. Verse is right about the deep outs, not his best throw.

This is sorta like Christmas in January, I like the WCO and believe that Cleveland could be sucessful with this. It does play to Fryes, abilities.

Toad iss right about the Bucth lambasting, Clevelnad was supposed to change to more of a WCO when Garcia got here, but did not. Why Garcia had issues in Detroit with Mooch as the HC is beyond me, but then it is Detroit.

I, too, believe the WCO could work and what would be the harm in trying it, hell, what we've been doing hasn't worked, so, maybe a change to something completely different will give us the identitiy we desire for our offense.

imo, this would be Frye's last oppurtunity, again imo, to prove he is worthy of being the starter in Cleveland. If this or whatever we do does not work for him then I believe we will have a new starting QB in 08.

I believe the same with RAC. So with a few player upgrades on the OL and the QB and WR's getting on the same page, the WCO could very well work for this bunch. JJ and KW both run good routes and catch the ball, no probs with them, Wilson and Cribbs both showed good potential when they played WR, though they didn't play very often. B.E. is the wildcard? He must improve his route running and hands. Then Frye has to be accurate with his passes and tbh he needs some work on that as well.

All in all, if we upgrade the OL the right way then I think the WCO coud make our O productive.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Coast_Offense

That's just in case some people just don't know much or anything about the West Coast Offense.

I for one am excited about the possibility of the WCO coming to Cleveland. Passing to set up the run and doing so with horizontal, well timed, and precise routes sounds, scripted plays to open the game, eventually wearing down a defense too... all sounds great to me. However there's a few concerns about the offense that I have. In the WCO, don't you have to get the ball out quickly on your 3 and 5 step drops? I am concerned with Frye, for I've seen games and there's been times where he's definitely had issues of holding onto the ball too long. Also... receivers running precise, crisp routes? How many times this year would Edwards A.) Not run good routes at all and/or B.) Have a miscommunication with Frye that led to a pick. You have to be precise and know what you're doing. JJ I think runs good routes and would be solid it in. Wilson who knows? Winslow is solid in any offense, then Vickers and Droughns I know could be solid backs in the offense.. but those aren't my areas of concern... the right WR personnel and the QB uncertainty is where I have my doubts...

Oh yeah.. then there's still the issue of an offensive line that needs fixing...

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Tons of places to go within the thread, and this is as good a place as any to start.

Only out of ignorance can someone say the WCO won't work in Cleveland because of the weather. I don't mean the word in a derogitory way, but a literal one. One would only say that if they had not stopped to think that the Eagles and Packers have run the offense for many seasons, and those cities get the same kind of bad weather that Cleveland gets.

Though it should be put to rest, inevitably someone will say it won't work here, and we'll have to repeat the obvious again, hehe.

Vers, you talked about Droughns and being prototypical for the offense. At his age and with his style, he isn't "prototypical" for anything. I can't help but think you've me in your thoughts when you speak of all this, so to you I'm responding. He can catch, he can run, and he can block. To those ends, he's solid. Yet he's aging, and in any offense I've stated it's best to have him split carries. In the WCO, he can play FB as well as HB, and from his days in Denver and Detroit he knows the system allready. In the end, his time in the league and on this team is limited, so the discussion about how well he fits into the offense isn't nearly as important as how the offense can work.

You suggested Droughns wasn't wanted because he may not have fit in the system in Denver. That's incorrect. When the Donks let him go, they had Mike Anderson returning, they'd drafted Tatum Bell in the 2nd round (I believe) and had another fullback that was drafted late or taken as a free agent that they liked as a PURE fullback. Droughns can block, but at 225, he can't move people out of a hole the way a 250 pounder can. In the meantime, Droughns was making $1 million bucks, and they were so strapped against the cap that they'd asked Plummer and others to restructure. So the bottom line was that Droughns was a player who was never going to be their regular starter, and was making too much money to retain. That was the reality of why Droughns became available. Frankly, worrying about how well he fits into the WCO shouldn't even be a consideration, simply because we know what he can do by this point in his career.

Currently in this league, Holmgren runs the purest form of the old WCO. He still runs a pro-set which was one of the old staples. He still runs quick hitters and traps, and he still basis his passing game off of timed drops, timing routes, slants, and crossing patterns. Knapp isn't known for running that pure of a system. Think more along the lines of what Denver and Atlanta run, though Atlanta runs a version which is attempting to get something more out of Vick. Goodluck with that *L*

Edwards. The things he lacks as a professional are going to stand out no matter what offense he's in. If he decides to put it together, he'll succeed in any system. If he doesn't, he won't. His talent is undeniable, but it'll be up to him to make it in this league or not. The rest of our skill guys fit in quite well, especially Vickers, who's in the mold of the Rathmans of the world.

Now there's questions as to which teams are still running it. Garcia is a limited QB. He always has been. However, his resurgence is proof that a limited QB can thrive if the system is run correctly. McCarthy had great success running the ball in New Orleans when he was there, and teams like the Packers and Seahawks have had great success. But what's the common thing amongst all the teams that won with that system? They had a line that could block. No system can run without it. So where are we with linemen? We'll have a center that knows the offense like the back of his hand. We'll have a tackle that's been in the system for several years. We're going to need a couple of new guards anyway, so we're losing nothing there. We probably will need another tackle, but time will tell. Frye is a question mark in any offense, so he isn't a consideration.

So what's the question here? Whether or not the WCO is still a viable offense? <img src="/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> Please, let's stop being blind to the truth here and look around. A WCO team was in the Super Bowl last year. A WCO team had been to several NFC title games in a row. Even without McNabb, a WCO team is doing quite well now, and they are doing it because they've committed to the run more, thus leading to a balanced attack. Over the last several years, the WCO has had numerous representitives in the playoffs, even if they didn't win the Super Bowl. Forget this copy-cat league where the "hot" system is what is being copied. Too many great offensive minds have run, and continue to run, the WCO.

I'm glad that Savage is at least considering the possibility. I've been beggin' for this for years, and we finally have a chance to install a VETERAN coordinator who brings a PROVEN system to the fold. The question isn't whether or not the WCO is a viable offense, or even if we have people that fit in it. The question is whether or not Savage is willing to go this route, or if he's going to head in a different direction. I know where I think he should go.......[/color]

web page

[color:"gold"]EO...an article on the same subject you and I are discussing...plus other topics of interest.

Scherer makes his call
Browns interview potential play-caller
Thursday, January 11, 2007
Tony Grossi
Plain Dealer Reporter
How does Rip Scherer grab you as the next Browns offensive coordinator?

Yes, that Rip Scherer.

While everyone has assumed that interim play-caller Jeff Davidson would be the logical in-house choice, Scherer, the quarterbacks coach the past two sea sons, has emerged as a strong candi date.

General Man ager Phil Sav age disclosed on Wednesday that Davidson and Scherer have formally interviewed for the position, and he made a strong argument supporting Scherer.

Scherer, 54, has been rarely heard from in two years here, largely because of coach Romeo Crennel's policy restricting assistant coaches from doing media interviews except when given permission.

"Rip has a vast experience," Savage said. "He's always had a lot of responsibility in his career. I think he started calling plays when he was 25. Outside of his two years here, he's been a play-caller virtually every year during his coaching career."

Until he joined the Browns in 2005, Scherer's coaching experience was all in the college ranks. He coached at 11 different universities, including head coach stints at James Madison (1991-94) and Memphis (1995-2000).

Scherer also was the offensive coordinator at Arizona, Alabama, Georgia Tech and Southern Mississippi, and co-coordinator at Kansas.

Davidson, conversely, never called plays until he took over for Maurice Carthon on the fly for the seventh game last season. Over the next 10 games, the Browns actually averaged fewer points on offense per game than under the maligned Carthon.

Besides Scherer's previous experience, Savage said Scherer's knowledge of the Browns players "and what some solutions might be to get the ball spread around" are positives for him.

Davidson has that going for him, also. Savage said the Browns "would love" for Davidson to remain with the team as offensive line coach if he does not get the coordinator job.

But Savage added, "I don't think it's 100 percent" assured Davidson would stay.

The Browns have interviewed one other candidate with NFL coordinator experience. Jim Donovan of WKYC Channel 3 reported it was Greg Knapp, formerly offensive coordinator at Atlanta and San Francisco.

They still want to interview Miami quarterbacks coach Jason Garrett, but the Dolphins have not granted permission yet while they sort out their head coach search.

Savage said they might interview college coaches for the position. One might be interviewed today or Friday. He also indicated the Browns might not wish to wait to interview coaches involved in the playoffs for fear of falling behind in solidifying a redesigned offensive staff.

So the job might be filled "in the next couple days or in a couple weeks," Savage said.

There is no question that the coordinator job will be the most important addition to Crennel's staff. It's possible the success of the offense in 2007 - or lack of - will dictate whether Crennel returns in 2008.

"I think the biggest thing for this offensive coordinator, whoever it is, is to get our team on the same page, to pull us together, to be a leader and be innovative enough to use the pieces that we have," Savage said.

In 2006, the Browns ranked 30th in scoring, 31st in offensive yards, 31st in rushing and 23rd in passing.

Beyond those feeble numbers the Browns were plagued by division on the staff (until Carthon resigned) and lack of chemistry on the field between the quarterbacks and receivers. The result was a complete absence of offensive identity.

The new coordinator will be the one who convincingly spells out a clearly defined identity to Crennel, Savage and owner Randy Lerner.

"I think the one thing we all agree on is that the face of the Browns offense in the future is probably going to be No. 17 [Braylon Edwards] and No. 80 [Kellen Winslow Jr.]," Savage said. "Those are clearly probably our most talented players.

"What we have to do is transfer that talent and turn them into real professional stars. We've got to bring in an offense and put a coordinator in place that can really put a positive on those two guys."

In another vein, Savage did not rule out anything at the quarterback position.

With Notre Dame's Brady Quinn or LSU's JaMarcus Russell within the team's grasp with the No. 3 or No. 4 pick (pending a coin flip), Savage is not going to tip off his intentions this early.

Besides, it's possible the new coordinator will have a voice in choosing the quarterback path taken.

Ink spots:

The Browns signed the following players as reserve/future free agents: offensive lineman Andrew Hoffman, offensive lineman Pete Lougheed, cornerback Antonio Perkins, safety Justin Sandy and defensive lineman Alvin Smith.

To reach this Plain Dealer reporter:

tgrossi@plaind.com, 216-999-4670

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Eo...I highlight the lines below to show I'm not the only one questioning Davidson's experience level.

".........Scherer also was the offensive coordinator at Arizona, Alabama, Georgia Tech and Southern Mississippi, and co-coordinator at Kansas.

Davidson, conversely, never called plays until he took over for Maurice Carthon on the fly for the seventh game last season. Over the next 10 games, the Browns actually averaged fewer points on offense per game than under the maligned Carthon. ......."


The Browns may be unable to bring in a "top" candidate due to the possibility that Crennel's future is in question, changes could loom large again after next season.

Therefore, the best Savage may be able to do is hire the best qualified within the organization.

It's hard to believe that just two years after gutting the organization and upgrading, the Browns have once again become a place coaches and players may try to avoid.

I would understand if Scherer was picked from within as he is experienced at doing the job of offensive coordinator, but lacks NFL experience at the job.

I would welcome him to the job even though he may not be the "best" OC...face it, we can't get the "best" with Crennel's record of the past two years.


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No one in the NFL runs the WCO purely as there are variations even with the teams who use it as a base scheme..
In the early versions teams used twp split backs and we've seen it used with ONE back ..
One good thing is that your first seriesd of plays are scripted which allow the offense to practice those and get it down..you know what you're going to do in advance...and you can also run a hurry-up or no huddle off it..
As we saw with our 34 D..we didn't have the intial pieces for that either, but we're getting those..
Same if that WCO is implemented here..and any OC knows full well it isn't going to be a pure WCO..so at times it will resemble a conventional offensive set..
For me I like the idea of getting a offensive philosophy for once and sticking to it.

Toad
First off - thanks for the detailed response. I'll try to be brief, but that's a lot of info....


I see your point, here, but don't you think Vick being in Atlanta clouds a lot of things. I know we're using them as an example a lot because that's where the OC is potentially coming from, but other teams that run the WCO would probably give us a better perspective on how it impacts the running game or doesn't (problem is there are so many variations of it).

You're the first person I've heard say that the WCO isn't a "pass-first" defense. Maybe you confuse "pass-first" with "pass-primarily". WCO is a pass-first offense, but that doesn't mean its not a balanced attack. If you're passing offense isn't clicking, you're going to struggle just like we did this year w/ not being able to run the ball. Would you agree with that?

When we talk about personnel for WCO - any time you switch systems there's a certain amount of speculation around how well someone would fit into that system. Heck - we don't even know if half of these kids can even play NFL football yet. Going through position by position, though, it was probably an over-statement on my part though to compare it to the defensive overhaul to go to the 3-4.
- Our OL needs an overhaul regardless. Using the WCO would just dictate some minor skill-set variances.
- I don't see Reuben or Vickers as a tail in the WCO as much as a FB, but that's just me. Vickers seems more versatile - so maybe...
- we have no clue if Harrison, Wright, and Barclay can contribute to any offensive style at this point
- TE would be a good fit
- WR - Who knows. JJ, sure. I don't see Edwards as a WCO receiver. He sucks on shorter routes - more of a down the field guy. I'm guessing we'd need to bring in more receiver help.

From the mile-high view, it would be hard to make a case that we'd be in worse shape personnel wise switching to the WCO. We look to be sucking pretty equally regardless at this point.



I think "starting over" would be a stretch if Davidson is awarded the job. A lot of the terminology could carry over. Pieces of the system were integrated over the last part of the year. You could also argue that they could ask Knapp to integrate his system over time, rather than doing a total overhaul out of the blocks to slow the learning curve - but that might be what you were referring to when you said don't "dumb-down" the offense?


I'm still on the boat that says its too early to say that for sure. Too many guys were "failures" early in their careers. Most of them that ended up succeeding had better skill-sets, but I'm not abandoning ship yet. Do we have the ideal QB? Probably not. One that can win? Time will tell.

Thanks for giving some insight on the system. I've watched it on TV, but have never studied it or cheered for a team that ran it, so just straighten me out wherever I'm off base.

Vers

Neither seems ideal. Quinn would be lacking in mobility and Russell isn't ideal at the short-yardage game. My thinking was more of putting Russell in the category of a Vick that can throw. I think I know where you are going with this, but can you elaborate?

I share your concerns with Edwards (on this subject anyway), other than the route running. I know he's struggled here, but I thought for sure that was a positive on his scoutig profile coming out of college. You sure he's always been bad?

I also agree on the view point/concern that as a whole the WCO hasn't seemed overly successful, but there are also a lot of variations of it out there. I like how much progress Knapp was able to make in Atlanta in a reasonably short time, but they still had problems with consistency. Was that personnel?

Also agree on the point of - who the heck knows what it's gonna take to fix this offense. I hope no one is expecting some magical transformation on offense, regardless of the OC/system, etc. These things generally take time and we're in the basement right now. You still have to have the talent to run any offense. We still don't have it, so between that and the continuity issue we're probably a few years out regardless.

[color:"red"]You're the first person I've heard say that the WCO isn't a "pass-first" defense. Maybe you confuse "pass-first" with "pass-primarily". WCO is a pass-first offense, but that doesn't mean its not a balanced attack. If you're passing offense isn't clicking, you're going to struggle just like we did this year w/ not being able to run the ball. Would you agree with that?
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That is true ..the WCO is a pass first -set the run up later offense but teams that run variations of it will go to the ground game early.
This scheme will expose the weak links very quickly..if the QB can't make the reads/maken the quick throws or the WR's don't run the precise routes..it's going to blow up..
Thats why I say do it and then eliminate the weak links, which would come int he next offseason if ya know what I'm hinting at <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

[color:"red"] I think "starting over" would be a stretch if Davidson is awarded the job. A lot of the terminology could carry over. Pieces of the system were integrated over the last part of the year. You could also argue that they could ask Knapp to integrate his system over time, rather than doing a total overhaul out of the blocks to slow the learning curve - but that might be what you were referring to when you said don't "dumb-down" the offense?
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Do we really know what scheme JD wants to run?
He went off Carthon's playbook and just tweeked it ..but it wasn't his own stamp.

[color:"red"] Do we have the ideal QB? Probably not. One that can win? Time will tell.

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I agree , I don't think we have the ideal QB for any scheme but Don't tell anyone <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

[color:"red"]I share your concerns with Edwards (on this subject anyway), other than the route running. I know he's struggled here, but I thought for sure that was a positive on his scoutig profile coming out of college. You sure he's always been bad?
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Edwards was in the news a lot..
[color:"white"] http://www.centralohio.com/ohiostate/stories/20040101/football/147110.html
Michigan's football program still lives by Bo Schembechler's mantra: "The Team, The Team, The Team."

But that didn't stop receiver Braylon Edwards from creating an individual story before the Rose Bowl by saying he might skip his senior season to enter the NFL draft.
Clearly, the likable son of former Michigan running back Stanley Edwards does not always project a me-first attitude. But his mouth does get him into trouble at times.

"With the exception of him talking too much, he's been just fine," said Michigan offensive coordinator Terry Malone. "He's a Michigan man. He grew up that way.
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[color:"orange"] http://www.sptimes.com/2003/12/31/Sports/Coaches_Carroll__Carr.shtml

The two styles fit their teams perfectly - Carroll's California cool and Carr's hearty Midwestern approach.

"He comes from the same mold as (former Michigan coach) Bo Schembechler," said Michigan receiver Braylon Edwards, who had his run-ins with Carr this season. "He's more of a disciplinarian, and Pete Carroll is more of a players' coach, which is cool. Coach Carr runs a tight ship."


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Good point. Don't have a reference point, but from what I've read his school of thought is opposite of Carthon's to a degree. His philosophy is similar to New Englands in that its a few plays from many formations, where Carthon was many plays from few formations. I don't recall if that was a quote or something assumed by a media article, but that's my expectation with Jeff - right or wrong.

I certainly have no idea how close what we were running at the end of the season was to what Jeff would run. I'd guess not very, but several players made comments about having to learn so much each week and how little time there was to practice and get everyone on the same page - so I'm not sure how much he pushed things.

I don't see them going with a college guy, but who knows. He qualified that too with his comments along the lines of - successful coordinators have come from all different types of backgrounds and experience at any level is not necessarily a pre-requisite to success.

Is Scherer the missing link here? Savage certainly didn't have to go into so much detail about the guy's experience level, etc and pushed several times that hiring internally would not indicate a failure to find someone as much as it would indicate that they felt that the best person for the job was already on the staff.

I don't know - I really got the feeling from the press conference that they were leaning toward an internal person. They may be hoping that Miami hires a head coach soon so they can try to interview Garrett again? Maybe that's the hold up? Who knows.

[color:"red"] I certainly have no idea how close what we were running at the end of the season was to what Jeff would run. I'd guess not very, but several players made comments about having to learn so much each week and how little time there was to practice and get everyone on the same page - so I'm not sure how much he pushed things.
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Only thing I heard was they couldn't scrap the playbook..they had to use Carthons scheme but JD would put his own stamp on it as much as he could..scrap the plays that were ineffective or (fill in the blank)...

[color:"red"] I don't see them going with a college guy, but who knows. He qualified that too with his comments along the lines of - successful coordinators have come from all different types of backgrounds and experience at any level is not necessarily a pre-requisite to success.
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Neither do I..I do feel they want a guy with NFL experience..if it comes from outside.

[color:"red"]Is Scherer the missing link here? Savage certainly didn't have to go into so much detail about the guy's experience level, etc and pushed several times that hiring internally would not indicate a failure to find someone as much as it would indicate that they felt that the best person for the job was already on the staff.
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I kinda got that feeling also..

The single most important element is the QB. Now what kind of quarterback.

Mobile quarterbacks have had success and concrete monsters like Montana and Johnson have worked so mobility helps but not a major need.

Armstrength
again we have a montana, Garcia and then u have the Bret Farve and Matt Hasslebeck. The great arm helps but it isnt a primary.

Timing
quarterbacks with the best timing has looked the best. See Brad Johnson under Gruden. Montana. Walsh after he learned to throw.

Accuracy
arguably the single most important aspect. See Vicks lack of success, why Garcia struggles at times. What got Farve into trouble.

Intelligence
This one to me is the most important. Its that ability to quickly decipher everything thats going on. Getting from that initial read to throwing the ball as soon as that back foot lands. A dump quarterbackwith all the talent in the world will struggle.

Frye's decision process is slow and it will likely even look slower in the PBO. His timing is on and off and can be improved. His accuracy is a tremendous worry.

Dorsey has the mind to run it but I would hate to see him trying to throw in Cleveland during december and January.

Anderson has the armstrength and the quick process but again accuracy is an issue. Maybe that will improve with more reps but I dont have a great deal of confidence.

Russell well he has all the tools but he isnt known for being a rocket scientist. How long would it take for him to learn?

Brohm becomes more intrguing but I dont think he would sniffthe field year one.

Quinn prototypical QB. I think he has the smarts and theskills but his one major area of concern is accuracy. I just havent seen him thread the needle.

Honestly the best option would probaly be the skinny qb out of Hawaii lol He has everything you look for except the body. I dont know if he is even 180lbs. But he is as quick from drop to pop as i have seen. Phenominal timing and accuracy. makes the smart reads and smart decisions and he hits the receivers in stride. He would need to hang out with Merriman over the summer <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Good point, mourg. I know I was just assuming mobility was required - but those are about as good of examples as you'll find of great success with limited mobility. Hmmm....


The only thing I'd come back to on this, was a point made a while back that questioned how much Frye was holding the ball to be sure the receivers were going to the right place - and that being compounded by guys changing routes in the huddle, etc. I don't know if Frye's smart or not. No clue. He's a study freak and that can't hurt, I'm just questioning how much of what we saw this year in "read speed" was pure to that topic? No clue.


That was hilarious! <img src="/images/graemlins/rofl.gif" alt="" />

well i am looking for this old article i read about walsh and the wco and i can't find it but i did find this


FOOTBALL DIGEST: What was the genesis of the West Coast offense?

BILL WALSH: The genesis of the offense that somebody has labeled the West Coast offense began in Cincinnati in 1970. It was born of an expansion franchise that just didn't have near the talent to compete. That was probably the worst-stocked franchise in the history of the NFL. So in putting the team together, I personally was trying to find a way we could compete. The best possible way to compete would be a team that could make as many first downs as possible in a contest and control the football.

We couldn't control the football with the run; teams were just too strong. So it had to be the forward pass, and obviously it had to be a high-percentage, short, controlled passing game. So through a series of formation-changing and timed passes--using all eligible receivers, especially the fullback--we were able to put together an offense and develop it over a period of time. In the process, we managed to win our share. The old-line NFL people called it a nickel-and-dime offense. They, in a sense, had disregard and contempt for it, but whenever they played us, they had to deal with it.

FD: Did that offensive system evolve into a science of sorts?

BW. The good fortune for me is I installed it and refitted it and remolded it in Cincinnati. Then I installed it in San Diego. A year later, I'm installing it at Stanford, and a couple years after that I'm installing it with the 49ers. So each year, I was able to process that new offense and deliver it to the team and develop it. The changes forced me to be that much more well organized and more specific as to what we taught.

FD: Why has been the key to its success?

BW: A quarterback who has instincts and can make plays of his own when necessary and play within the system, and who has fundamental football aptitude rather than just general IQ. It's a natural. We had Kenny Anderson, Virgil Carter, and Greg Cook in Cincinnati, Dan Fouts in San Diego. Kenny was an NFL MVP; Dan Fouts is a Hall-of-Famer. Then at Stanford we had Guy Benjamin and Steve Dils, who both led the league in passing; Benjamin was a consensus All-American. And you know what happened with the 49ers: Joe Montana, Steve Young, Jeff Garcia. The rest is history.

link to rest of article


sounds alot like the browns eh?

what i like about this offense is that it gives the o another option..."run with the pass"

a good offense imo takes what the defense gives.....

stacking the box...well throw quick passes outside...or go over your head.....

run it outside or inside....

when i look at an offense like this i'm reminded of teams that can get it done in many different ways....i'm reminded of the pats before they had dillon it was alot of quick passes....then when they got dillon they could run it too...keep the d guessing....

same with pitt...now they might not be a wco team, but last year they almost always came out passing...and why? cause teams were stacking the box to stop the run....keep it up until the d gets honest....then run the ball......

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Hehehe.......Just remember who you're talking to here. "Brief" is hardly a word that can be involved when I'm conversing with someone <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I'm like the little kid on Christmas who can't stop talking about the toy he's wanted all year. The WCO is my first bicycle!

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To your point, absolutely. Never has a "franchise" player created so many questions. You're right to point to other teams as better examples.

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Yes, and my interpretation of "pass-first" is probably biased based on so many people wrongly confusing that term with "pass-dominant."

Having said that, I agree that if you can't pass, you'll have a hard time running. The Denver's and Atlanta's of the world are the exceptions, not the rule.

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I've skipped past much of what you'd typed because I agree with it. I do see Droughns as more of a HB than Vickers, and I'll apologize if I didn't get that point across well enough. Having said that, Vickers could be a WCO FB in the future, while Droughns' role is that of a part-timer at both positions. I can see Vickers at FB on earlier downs, while Droughns could line up at FB in passing downs for draws, screens, and as a receiver. Beyond that, we're on the same page as far as transitioning personnel.

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While true, o you see Davidson as being the OC next year? I don't. I think all the interest in other guys outside the organization speak volumes that he most likely isn't going to be the guy, so I'm focusing on what would happen in the WCO, not what would happen if Davidson were retained as the OC.

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Correct.

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I probably could have done a better job expressing the thought that I believe we need a veteran QB, as I have zero faith in Anderson, and marginally more in Frye, though I think he deserves a shot. It would be prudent in a year where we're expecting to go 8-8 with a shot at the playoffs to have a veteran in case Frye or Anderson can't get it done.

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I don't pretend to be a true expert, but it's the one offensive system that I've studied indepth over the past 15 years. If we hire a WCO guy, I'm sure you'll get more than your fair share of info, hehe.[/color]

I agree.

I will even make the claim that if Davidson is named the OC, it isn't so much that we picked him as it is a case nobody wanted to sign here for fear of the unstable situation.

Whoever signs here would have to consider this a 1 year deal unless big changes were seen on the field.

That is probably a big reason why most of the names we see are guys from teams that just made a coaching change.

[color:"red"] While true, do you see Davidson as being the OC next year? I don't. I think all the interest in other guys outside the organization speak volumes that he most likely isn't going to be the guy, so I'm focusing on what would happen in the WCO, not what would happen if Davidson were retained as the OC.
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And the impression that they like Scherer...he has been an offensive co-ordinator on the college level.
And he has knowledge of the personnel..but I favor a OC with NFL experience.

what i don't get is if Scherer is so great then why didn't they give the shot to him when they canned mo....

I'll be shocked if Knapp isn't hired. It's the safest pick and the most proven. We're looking for a proven OC, right?

Anyone who can turn Jeff Garcia into a pro bowler and can do something with runningback Michael Vick has to be worth something to us.

Just some food for thought: Robiskie as OC...didn't he run the old Raider offense that Tom Walsh brought back? The one that Tim Brown said was outdated in the early 90's? Sheesh...we need an offensive guru stat, and an offensive line and QB.

I'll take the cop-out approach and say that I want them to do whatever will work. <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I sure as heck don't know what that is. I don't think talent level or system had much to do with our failures this season, so I'm open to about anything.

If they don't announce something this weekend to early next week - they are likely waiting for Garrett (or possibly someone in the play-offs).

For the record - I'd also STRONGLY prefer someone with NFL OC experience, but that doesn't mean that 1 candidate who meets that criteria is necessarily the best guy for the job. If he's got experience why isn't he doing it? He obviously failed somewhere along the way in some capacity or other.

Assuming RAC's participating heavily in the decision, I'd guess that he'd favor someone he feels he can trust who's also pitching a concept that will turn things around more quickly. That combination is more likely to come from inside.

Pre-press conference. I though we were leaning outside with Davidson as a backup.
Post press conference, I think they are leaning inside and Scherer might have an edge on Davidson simply based on experience. It might have come down to his sales pitch.

Of course, Phil could have just been blowing smoke for unknown reason - but that was the feeling I came away with for one reason or the other.

JD was familar with how NE ran their offense , that was one of the things they liked.
BEING THE assistant they promoted him take over.

Ammo..I think Knapp would better serve the Browns than Davidson /Scherer..
They're pretty much going to turn over the offense to whoever they promote there..and even though the inhouse guys know the personnel...are they going to be objective and relay who they can use , who they can't, and what type of players they really need?

Safest for who? I'll agree on that it may come down to Romeo's feeling of urgency and if he feels Knapp's system might hinder us over another option for the first year.

From the "proven" standpoint - that's hard to debate.

Trust may also be a factor, since RAC seems to struggle on the offensive side of things.

Knapp might also be a reasonable candidate to take over if RAC stumbles next season (may help him get a vote from Savage)?

Total speculation, of course.

This whole WCO thing seems to be getting a little blown out of proportion in my opinion. People are acting like if your coordinator is a WCO guy then you get a distinct playbook and throw out any runs up the gut on first down.

It's a philosophy...not a set of strict rules. An Offensive coordinator is still going to call plays according to weaknesses he sees on defenses, mismatches, who's hot, etc.

I just want an offensive coordinator that can get the job done. Get first downs. Get touchdowns. I don;t care if you're pounding the ball or throwing bombs every time. Just get in done.

One note on teh WCO though.... from what i know, the offense relies on alot of short/intermediate route passes. This sounds strangely familiar to Carthon's little dink and dunk, three yard pass, "prevent" offense.

[color:"white"]I never had a problem with Carthon's schemes and designs. It was his coaching style and playcalling that absolutely sucked.

A note on Knapp. He is a proven guy. He didn't "make" Garcia a pro-bowler, but he did help design and implement the offense that continued Garcia's climb towards greatness. With Vick as your QB, anything good and bad is possible. [/color]

It'll just scream offensive incompetence if we don't hire Knapp. Still I have a bad feeling that we won't hire him for the reasons you stated. The trust factor, he's not a Romeo guy, but then again I think Savage is having more input this season as well.

I just wanna see some audibles and creativity out of this offense, more than anything. If Scherer's the guy to give us the most creativity then so be it, if it's Knapp, so be it. I'm sick of I-formation running up the gut with no audibles.

I'd love to see someone implement the no-huddle a la Cinci, that's why I was so pissed when their former WR coach got hired by the Falcons. I was hoping we'd take a look at him (and I said that in a previous thread before he got hired by the dirty birds).

One reason I could see us not going with Knapp or the WCO is that I have heard Favre say that it took him 3 years to learn this offense. It isn't an easy offense to pick up. My understanding from interviews I've seen with Favre and Holmgren is that it is a lot of read and react. The WR and the QB need to be on the same page. a lot of the pass patterns are option type routes where the QB and the WR need to see the same thing.

The fact that it takes a little time to pick up might discourage RAC from wanting to go with it. (Time being something he may not have a lot of)

Those are my understandings from watching the Packers for the last 10 years.

[color:"white"]I think RAC will play a smaller role in the decision process than many might want to believe. Quite frankly, I don't much care what system he'd want on offense, as that faith went out the window with his stubborn support for a clearly outmatched Mo. [/color]

You may be right and I'm not going to debate that but if he has any say in the situation at all then my bet would be against getting the WCO.

Let me also say I would be very disappointed if that were to happen.

[color:"red"] I'll take the cop-out approach and say that I want them to do whatever will work [/color]

I'm with you on that and that includes what they do in FA and the draft.
WHATEVER works..
But I do see a plan forming..but I wonder how much does Phil even have a idea at this point?
Basically without a identity he's leaving it up to this new OC to chart the course.
Then of course he goes grocery shopping <img src="/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

[color:"red"] I don't think talent level or system had much to do with our failures this season, so I'm open to about anything.
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To a degree it did..when you look at certain things..but in other ways you're right .. no one was in sync at all..everyone on a different page..no flow at all..

[color:"red"]Of course, Phil could have just been blowing smoke for unknown reason [/color]
Perhaps the reaso HE doesn't know who really has the edge..I don't think they want to wait for the playoffs to end to name the new OC..
I think they want to take their time get the right man with the correct vision in place and procceed so Opie can start his pre-combine scouting and reviews..

Very possible. Good point.

He's said as much. Probably depends on who he sees potentially becoming available and how confident they are in who they've already interviewed. Waiting does complicate some of the other processes.

[color:"white"]Here's my problem with RAC having a great deal of input on the new OC: He's on a very short leash. In fact, when the season starts, he'll be on the short list of guys who could be gone by mid-season. So if I were the GM, having just been forced to fire his OC at midseason and many of his other coaches at the end of the year, I'm not going to trust his assessments, and I won't limit myself to guys that RAC approves of. [/color]