DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Browns Interview Knapp for OC

Agreed. Especially when his professional assessment of offense is "If it works, it's a good play, if it doesn't work, it's a bad play."

If that were true, defensive playcalling would be the same way and there'd be no need to call different defensive fronts. Surely RAC knows it's not "If it works, it's a good play, if it doesn't work, it's a bad play" on defense.

If anything, calling an offense requires more cerebral skill than calling a defense, and I've played on both sides of the ball so I know this pretty well. Our defensive packages were pretty complex, but we spent a whole offseason timing up our offense while our defense didn't do much more than work on fundamentals and coverages rather than whole defensive plays.

Ya know I don't say it much to the guys I normally converse with(perhaps I should) I like your mind..logical.. <img src="/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif" alt="" />

[color:"red"] Probably depends on who he sees potentially becoming available and how confident they are in who they've already interviewed [/color]

I think Phil , in the back of his mind wants to compare the inhouse guys' vision with one or two outsider minds..who has the best set way to proceed to take the offense to competitive levels and yet which one possesses the ability to take the team over if need be?
If U want me to clarify that I will , if you caught it , I won't.

Ammo

That's a back-handed statement, IMO. You can only get so much out of RAC in public - or any coach for that matter.

Although there is some basis for that line of thought, RAC makes that statement in regards to the overly simplistic view from the media mentality. They criticize anything that doesn't work as "wrong".

In other words - what a coach says in a press conference <> what a coach thinks/knows. I think that goes w/o saying.

Thanks - and likewise.


Gotcha - and I agree. it would be naive for someone to believe that's not at least a consideration where Savage is concerned. How heavily that's being weighed might be debatable, though.

Like it or not - there is a balance. An outside guy knows nothing of our personnel. Nothing. There's a learning curve there for someone to "try" our guys out to see what they can do. An inside guy has better knowledge first-hand.

Sometimes I think people automatically think that the outside guy is better by default - kinda like companies that think consultants are all-knowing and take their word over their own people. Then our inside guy goes someplace else and lights it up - then we're idiots for not seeing that all along. Can't win.

As has been stated, the biggest thing going for Knapp is that he's a proven commodity. That has to weight in heavily. Very heavily. To be honest I think he'd be a stronger candidate if he weren't WCO - not because of the system but because of the changes that moving that way would require. That just might be a factor in why they are still looking around.

[color:"orange"]Before I go to page 5...let me respond to some page 4.

Garcia...yep I think I also mentioned improbable basically due to bridges being burnt.
In your negatives:
[color:"red"]"- The current OL is not nimble, other than Fraley. These guys need to be able to move. Lighter, quicker, more agile offensive linemen fit the WCO, not the plodders we have."

[color:"orange"]What current OL? Actually this is the perfect year to make a change if we make one. What current OL? Shaffer? cause thats the only current OL we got.
Bentley...when healthy I think he can play anything...so thats a moot point and whatever O he plays for us will be his first with us. Fraley - you mentioned - but we got to sign him.

Coleman...surgery n FA we are up in the air with him.
Andruzzi...surgery n all know his better days are behind him...we are up in the air as a starter with him.
Tucker...Mental problems - we will move on as if he is gone. Who can put a due date on his recovery? Bones we know are 6 weeks...Mental problems who knows?

4 out of 5 positions are totally BIG TIME ??? And the one sure guy we got...if things go right will be changing positions anyways (RT). So what better time than now to make the change of the Offense when regarding the OL.

Well just thought I chime in there on that negative.

And even if Davidson is there - I think NE runs a different offense than Dallas. Belicheck comes from the Parcells tree but has altered his Offense. The NE offense looks more like a WCO than a Verticle, running game...actually don't know what to call the Parcells/Mo offense. Does Weiss n ND run a WCO?

PBO...btw knew exactly what that was Mourgrym...lol <img src="/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I'm sure Colts run a variation of the WCO...quite frankly Vers n others only Seahawk n Eagle run the WCO that we associate with Walsh...but so many, many not labled and even labeled asWCO just have evolved into something else. Denver's Shanahan has made it into his own version. As I think so did Wiess n Belicheck...As did Moore with Colts (Arians brought his version of that 2 TE WCO) here.. Even Parcells runs a weird version...Just what is a WCO now? There is so many versions, evolvement from it. Anything that throws UNDERNEATH???

I don't think it can be labeled as any thing specific anymore and each team can run their version and tweaks of it according to the personnell involved. Denver...loves Cutler so they can put Verticle stretch in their WCO? See what I mean. There are I think WCO is labeled too widely. All offenses have some version of it in theirs except for maybe Al Davis he is the only one still stuck in the early 70's.

JMHO

[color:"red"]An outside guy knows nothing of our personnel. Nothing [/color]
''I KNOW NOTHING!"
Kinda sounds like the inside guys TOO <img src="/images/graemlins/rofl.gif" alt="" />
With either entity be it Knapp or Scherer or whoever, they need to be upfront and tell Opie that current players(whomever) are not suitable for whatever scheme..

We cry about the oline all the time..someone has to be to see the type of blockers that are needed and give Phil DIRECTION..do we want zone blockers or man blockers?

Of course either way we need athletic guys not slow plodding cows..

What type of back do we eventually need?
Straight ahead bruiser or power back with breakaway speed?
Last but certainly not the least is what QB is needed?

I have said I think Frye is really a # 2 QB because he doesn't seem to be able to overcome certain things..if we go to a WCO we'll really se if he can run that scheme or if it also seems too fast for him.

WCO isn't the philosophy of the offense so much as it is the terminology.

Indy doesn't run the WCO. There may be some of the philosophies of the WCO in there, but it's not the WCO. Ditto w/ the Pats.

And yes, Parcells and Belichick run different offenses in their style but the terminology is fundamentally similar (the Weis offense...don't think for a second that Belichick came up with that offense because he was CLUELESS in Cleveland about offense). Look who's starting to look like a dinosaur while the other is enhancing his coaching legacy.

Basically, offenses that look like the WCO aren't the WCO unless they have the terminology in place. Likewise, an offense that looks nothing like the WCO IS the WCO if it has fundamentally similar terminology in place. Each coordinator has is own plays and wrinkles, but the overall terminology is the similar to one another.

I've posted this article before, but I will post part of it again just for you. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


I will bold face the part about his route running.


http://www.nfl.com/draft/profiles/2005/edwards_braylon

[color:"white"] Negatives: Has shown good maturity as a senior, but was in trouble with the coaching staff previously for taking plays off … Still needs a coach to ride him to get the best out of his ability … Can be a good route runner, but at times will round his cuts and is more of a soft-angle type … Needs to fight for ball better, as you don't see him being a tough receiver on crossing patterns all the time even though he has shown flashes of excelling here (lacks consistency) … Will run some sloppy routes and will cruise when not involved in the play … Has developed a better feel for patterns, but needs to settle and break off them better … Must maintain discipline and effort, as he has been inconsistent doing both most of his career … Not considered a deep threat due to adequate timed speed … Lacks a natural feel for zone coverage and loses concentration at times, especially when he tries to get up field before securing the ball. [/color]

That looks like everything I've seen from Braylon since he's been here.

I know this wasn't for me,but this could have been dated today.The negatives still apply.I hope someone can thru to this kid,time is short and it's such a precious commodity.

Yeah, but it was Robo's fault. <img src="/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

To make matters worse, it's Leon's character that is the real killer to the team.

And Savage gets a free pass for drafting him and then defending him by firing coaches and saying he is a guy to build the offense around. <img src="/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

One more thing before I go. I was hoping someone else would address this, but people either missed it or don't know any better. Montana was not a staionary quarterback. He was, in fact, very mobile. He wasn't the type who made long runs like Young did, but he moved around in the pocket very well and was outstanding at rolling out and throwing on the run.

Let me give you a visual you can remember. "The Catch." One of the most famous plays in NFL history. Montana moved away from pressure by rolling to his right and threw the TD pass to Clark. Montana was very mobile and perfect for the WCO.

You saying we need to bring Montana out of retirement and insert the WCO! <img src="/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Seriously, are you backing Frye with this comment or do you think we need another QB? WCO or not! I'm not convinced that Frye isn't anything more than a solid backup QB. I'm just not sure the light will ever come on and he will become the QB we all hope to have but to really find out we and he needs something that hasn't been in Cleveland the last 7 seasons; a solid OL.

Neither. It was just bugging me that people were thinking that Montana wasn't mobile. I let it go, hoping someone else would point it out, but no one did.

Frye? Too early to determine. I say he needs more time to prove himself, one way or the other. And I'm not one of the Couchies... I won't be saying that after 4 or 5 yrs. I'll probably be able to form a decent opinion on him about mid-way to three-quarters of the way through this season.

[color:"GOLD"]Vers...so now your a supporter of the job Robo has done?

Was Robo able to help Edwards become a better player?...Doesn't look like it.

Some just hate Savage and find every way they can to knock the job he's done here.

Savage was hired when some fans thought Butch deserved another year...

.....but wait, didn't Butch decide to walk for "health" reasons?

Some blame Savage for picking Edwards and point to Edwards performance this year as evidence, that Savage is at fault for Edwards attitude....

.......but Edwards is coming off of an knee injury/surgery and actually took the field ahead of schedule. But the Browns season quickly went down the toilet as 6 or 7 games into the season, the Browns change OCs.

Edwards is young and immature and needs to molded into a pro receiver. I believe winning would help a lot...but how is it Savages fault that Edwards got hurt, came back early only to see the team begin losing again in 2006.

Winning does cure all ills..well, most of them. Some fans were not even happy that the Browns made the playoffs in 2002 and supported Butch's blowing up of our playoff team in 2003.

Savage has not asked for, nor received a free pass for anything. Savage is attempting to rebuild Crennel's offensive coaching unit in an attempt to pull the Browns bottom dwelling offense off of the bottom.

But to be honest, we do know that some fans hate Savage and all his attempts to improve the Browns. Do these fans have their own agenda?...you decide.

Savage is not perfect by no measure, but he is the best GM the Browns have had since our return in 99....and Savage is getting better, IMO.

Putting together a better offensive coaching staff will be a challenge for Savage, but Savage is the one calling most of the shots now...no one looking over his shoulder. Savage has but one goal, to turn the Browns into a playoff caliber team.

Savage is not perfect...no GM is perfect...but Savage has my support 100%.

BTW, if Edwards does not look like he can help the team improve next season and is not willing to be part of that effort to improve, he could be gone before next season even starts. I have little doubt that Savage would pull the trigger on Edwards...we shall see. [/color]

I noticed that about Montana,sometimes it's best to just let things slide.
An observation,and a question for you.Many have said the wco requires smaller,more mobile o-linemen,I don't understand the reasoning behind that.Traps,draws,screens and the required mobility to run them have been a part of football long before the 49'ers.
I see from the list above that Denver runs a wco,I don't understand that.If that's so,is zone blocking part of the wco,or just some by-product.
Something else just entered my brain.Andy Reid said the Eagles had to get bigger and more physical along the o-line,and man have they done that.So is he abandoning the wco in favor of a power run game?
How many teams in the AFC really and truely run the wco?Don't tell me Denver,I won't believe that.The real heavywieghts,NE,Pitts,Balt,SD,don't.
I'm just a midwestern farmboy,I have trouble with such esoterical things as "it's a philosophy" or it's "the terminology". I like meat and potatoes,the wco and quacamole don't thrill me.

I think Robo ia a good coach.



I do blame Savage for picking Leon. Who else would I blame? Hey mac, perhaps it was Butch's fault. <img src="/images/graemlins/rolleyes1.gif" alt="" />

I do NOT blame Savage for Leon's [censored]-poor attitude. That would be making an excuse for Leon, kinda like how people are blaming Robo for Leon's problems. I think making excuses by blaming other people only reinforces the negative behavior. But, then again, I am old-school. I believe in unpopular character traits, such as accountability, responsibility, teammwork, and respect.

What's the name of those animals who follow the first to jump off a cliff? Damn if I can remember, but you know the story. They all run together and when the leader runs right off the edge of the cliff, the rest blindly follow him and plummet to their deaths.

Well, I don't care if the most of the world doesn't buy into having strong character traits. I am not jumping off that damn cliff.

I believe your talking about lemings. They dont really follow each other over a cliff though.

True, but offensive linemen weren't always so gigantic.

I will tell you that I don't always think the biggest lines are the best. I prefer guys who can trap, pull, and get to the second level.



Denver does use zone blocking and it makes sense in the WCO. I also know they have smaller, quicker offensive linemen.

I am not sure if I answered your questions. I wasn't positive as to exactly what they were. If I didn't, will you rephrase them and add question marks at the end of the question? I'm not all that smart and need all the help I can get. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />




I never saw that quote. That's interesting. I do know that Philly has struggled to run the ball in the past. They did run it better this year.

Oh really? LOL.........so my dad was being tricky when he used that example on us.... following the crowd was not always the best move and instead, to make up our own minds using reasoning, logic, and researching the topic? That sly dawg. <img src="/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Oh the horror! How can you be so unreasonable??? <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

One thing I noticed about Atlanta's offense is that the WRs did not thrive. Is it Knapps system, Vick, or just bad WRs? I did see a lot of dropped balls. Thats one problem the Browns have.

I was thinking about the Browns drafting Calvin Johnson, if Thomas is off the board, and the Browns think Frye is the QB of the future. It made me think of our WRs in the WCO. Atlanta's WRs didnt thrive but TO did when he was in San Fran. I dont think we have the WRs for the WCO, but if the Browns did go in that direction Johnson would be a good pickup.

I guess I just don't see what all the fuss is about.I'm trying to get better picture of who runs it and who doesn't.
The thing I don't like,and no one cept you wants to acknowledge,changing to a new offensive system is basically throwing in the towel on the past two years.Granted we have been bad,but firing coaches and changing philosophies is nothing more than applying paint to a falling down house.West coast,east coast,north coast,doesn't matter,either a guy can block,or he can't,he can catch,or he can't,he can throw,or he can't.Getting guys that fit the "scheme" is BS.Get some linemen that block,a RB that can run,recievers that catch,and a qb that can throw,and you'll have a successful O.And you can it call whatever you want to.

BC I keep seeing you say that changing to a new system is throwing in the towel on the last two years. In that comment you are 100% accurate. However that's what they have already done by firing Mo. Whoever the new OC is they are going to want to do things their way.

Whether its Davidson, Knapp or someone we haven't heard about yet. It doesn't' matter it is all starting over on offense.

Given that why not go with the guy they feel gives them the best chance to win no matter what system he runs. What ever you do the offense should be very different from last year because what they did then didn't work.

I wonder how much they are empasizing to the coaches, running this offense with Frye as the QB, during the interview process.

Yes and no, while some traits are universal, there are players who fit a certain scheme and some who don't. Garcia is one example. Jerehmiah Trotter is another one. He was a Pro Bowler with the Eagles (attacking downhill scheme) and sucked with the Skins (read and react scheme at the time). Then went back to the Eagles and went back to the Pro Bowl.

Trotter would make an excellent 3-4 linebacker too.

Thats a very good point. Regardless of who the new guy is, he will want to run things his way and rightfully so.

It's not like our O has been succesful. Change is called for and it is coming.

[color:"white"]

Other things were Robo's fault, and you know it. He wasn't fired just because he couldn't control Edwards. Maybe someone else can, maybe nobody can, but that wasn't the only reason he was axed. Maybe he ran good drills. WHOOPTY-FREAKIN'-DOO!! <img src="/images/graemlins/rofl.gif" alt="" /> Maybe he meets with your approval, but his track record here was highly questionable, and when the day is done, there's nothing to show that his efforts made this team better. In fact, what we saw during his time as the Head Coach showed us he was a manipulative liar. He's gone. He earned it. Get over it.

[color:"white"]
You just LOVE playing this tired card over and over again. You like stretching the truth to try and further your point. Who exacly is giving Savage a free pass on Edwards? One lonely poster on one of these message forums? <img src="/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> LOL! If the MAJORITY were glossing it over, you'd have a point. The reality is that most everyone is baggin' on Edwards, and nobody is giving Savage a pass on it. But yet again, that's the stance you're going to take to build up the "ME AGAINST THE WORLD!" mentality that you love pushing. You're an old football guy. It's a tried and true philosophy that works on the field. The Pats have been doing it for years despite winning Super Bowl after Super Bowl and being the favorite in every game *L* It's clever, but it's false, and you know it. The tough part is that some of us know it as well.

[color:"white"]

Show me just one quote.......JUST ONE.........where Savage said he fired coaches because they couldn't control Edwards <img src="/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> You can't. Nevermind that these coaches earned a firing because of their loyalty to a stiff you backed in Carthon. Nevermind their history here of failure as the interim head coach. It's about firing coaches to protect one draft pick. <img src="/images/graemlins/rolleyes1.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/rofl.gif" alt="" />

Here's another bit of reality. If we're going to be a good team, we WILL have to build around Edwards. It's WAY too early to toss Edwards to the curb, and you know it. In fact, if ANYONE should be smart enough to know that Savage has to go that route it would be you. Yet it doesn't fit your agenda, so you're going to nail Savage to the cross for it LMAO!

If you want to bag on Savage for picking Edwards, fine. But stop making [censored] up to push your hollow agenda. [/color]

I've been thinking about this for the past couple of days and I have come to the conclusion that I think it would be a mistake...all things considered....to bring in Knapp and implement the WCO.

I hope we don't do it and hire someone else who runs something similar to what we run now. Most of all, I hope we begin to fix the offensive line and the running back position.

Bringing the WCO will probably buy Savage more time, as he can fall back on the offense was sub-par because he can hide behind the BS that it takes time to implement a new system and bring in the right players. He can then fire RAC next year, which will buy him even more time w/the clueless. <img src="/images/graemlins/naughtydevil.gif" alt="" />

[color:"gold"]vers...you said the following...

......" I do blame Savage for picking Leon. Who else would I blame".......

Vers...then shortly after your statement above, you write the following...

...."I think making excuses by blaming other people only reinforces the negative behavior."....

Vers...care to look in a mirror and apply your own words to yourself?
[/color]

Good one, mac. <img src="/images/graemlins/rolleyes1.gif" alt="" />

hey vers, just out of curiosity why?

we have some of the folks who could run it:

- K2 is a good pass catching TE
- JJ runs great routes and has worked in the WCO
- Wilson's scouting report says he has good hands
- heiden seems to catch the ball good
- hank and shaffer have played on teams that run the WCO

the biggest negatives I can think of:
- edwards doesn't run good routes and they would have to sit on him and make him learn if he wants to play
- our OL sucks, but then again every system we've run since we've been back has had that problem.

Go to pg. 3. I was mulling it over at the time and posted some positives and negatives.

I simply think the combination of turning over the roster, the effectiveness of the WCO in today's NFL, the time it would take to implement it, asking Charlie to not only learn under yet another OC, nevermind an entire new system, etc. would put this franchise even further behind.

That's just my opinion and ain't asking anyone to agree w/it. I just think it would be wiser to stay w/a similar system to what we now have, as I don't see anything wrong w/that system. The key is to bring in the right talent, starting w/the offensive line.

I haven't read the whole thread. I didn't realize you where participating in it.

after reading your post,

my 2 big concerns are frye's accuracy and the OL. if we a real LT (joe thomas!!!) and different guards (whether one is bentley, stienbach, or a draft pick is another argument <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ) could give frye the growth time to make better decisions and work on his accuracy.

I'll have to admit, seeing a WCO run well is quite a sight.

this article: is interesting, it talks about the roots of the WCO and about how walsh used it to control the ball with a not so good OL.

heres the real question though.....if its getting changed anywhay would you go wco...

more than likely if they go with davison you will see a mutation of the wco that the pats run....he's not gonna try and tweak mo's....he tried and i doubt he liked the results...


if you go with the guy from atlanta the same philosopy will come into play

so whats the big deal...

[color:"red"] I simply think the combination of turning over the roster, the effectiveness of the WCO in today's NFL, the time it would take to implement it, asking Charlie to not only learn under yet another OC, nevermind an entire new system, etc. would put this franchise even further behind.
[/color]
There are ways to wet it down..say they hire Knapp.he doesn't nor will go pure WCO in the first year if he feels the personnel isn't going to be there..there are variations of that offense that most teams use anyway..
I could see a hybrid offense like it then full tilt the next season..
Besides the offense is going to be remade anyway..new linemen...the WR's/TE and QB will be the same..new concept..
Even if they don't hire the guy they still need a identity..

I'm not sure that I agree with this argument. Yes it would put the franchise farther behind but isn't it falling behind anyway to get a new OC. Like I said before it doesn't matter who the go with the Offense is still starting over.

My personal opinion is that I love the WCO (I may be biased watching GB run it all these years.) The one thing I remember is how bad the Pack was offensively before Holmgren brought it to GB. It didn't take long for them to start looking like a real football team compared to how they looked before. If you remember they didn't have much talent on that side of the ball then either. It was Favre's first year as a starter and they went from 4-12 to just missing the playoffs.

Well guys.........I am real happy that you all want the WCO.

I still don't.........and again........I am not trying to change your mind. It's strictly opinion.

I think it would be a bad idea and you hope it would work. <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Hey, what are you guys going to say if Phil "I Can Do No Wrong" Savage decides against it? You never wanted it in the first place? <img src="/images/graemlins/rofl.gif" alt="" />




Relax, I'm just kidding. <img src="/images/graemlins/azzangel.gif" alt="" />

Im not all for the Browns getting the WCO. I do think Frye has a better chance of being a decent QB in the WCO. Like Garcia being a good QB and succeding pretty much only in the WCO. Both are mobil and both dont have great arm strength.

I think a lot of us would be happy with an OC that can get the most out of what we have. right or wrong, there is a sense that we have more talent then what shows up on the field.

I think that changing personnel and schemes has led to lack of production. I also think the lack of production can be attributed to poor OL play.

I really don't think any offense will work here in Cleveland until we stick w/a system, keep the majority of coaches in place, and improve the OL---both the starters and the depth.

Summary: Make less changes in regards to coaches and scheme and draft well, especially in the trenches.