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I just don't understand that when I post my opinion and back it with what I see and lay it out with football. I simply do not get debated. I get rediculed. I get insulted. But I don't get football. 
JMHO
Because people here like to think they are smarter than everyone else. It never changes...it's been this way for the eight years I've been around. They also like to put words in your mouth about who you think is the better QB.
This board doesn't seem to have many discussions...they are mostly debates. 
#gmstrong #gmlapdance
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Quite honestly, those are the single most important words you said in that entire post, particularly as it applies to this message board.
And that's all I've been doing in the BE thread and that's all Ammo and Heldawg did here. The problem is when the negative gets used to fuel agenda, and I just don't see it in either thread - or at least from the posters I just mentioned.
Quite honestly, we just stated facts. If there are no room for facts on this board, then what are we left with.
You know, Rish- I got that from you guys and your posts. I hope you realized that I was weighing in with my general take on things, rather that choosing "a side" in any threadbate.
In essence, I was outlining my feelings about the DA situation from my p.o.v. only. If some Dawgs agree with me, that's very cool... it's nice to have one's views validated by others. If Dawgs want to disagree, that's fine, too. Their points are no less valid, and can be educational to read.
The criticisms that fans have about DA are legitimate, to be sure- the perfect QB hasn't been born/cloned/genetically engineered yet, and DA has areas which could stand improvement. Those areas of performance have been well-documented by many on this board, and I really couldn't add anything of substance to that list.
In a nutshell: players get microscopically dissected in here all the time... and after 5 years of board participation, I just decided to step back and look at the big picture where DA was concerned. When I did that, I liked what I saw a whole lot better. Dude was a most pleasant surprise last year- warts and all. Games were exciting, entertaining, and worth waiting all week for- and he was a big part of it.
Can he improve? I hope so. I think he will.
Are you guys justified in your assessment of him? You bet. No arguements from me.
I just wanted to take a break from the microscope for a bit, and let my eyes readjust- hence the earlier post.
It's all good, Rish...
"too many notes, not enough music-"
#GMStong
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"they are mostly debates."
Actually I would welcome even a debate...instead we get too much Drama I feel like we got a bunch of Drama Queens when it comes to the QB discussion 
JMHO
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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Just a general reply .......
People say stuff like "He struggled in the 2nd half of the year ....."
As do many QBs. Most QBs have a part of the year where they simply are not as good and/or as sharp as they had been to that point.
Look at Bernie Kosar's career. At least 3 years in his "prime years" that I can recall included stretches of 4 or 5 games where he really had problems. One year, IIRC, he went the 1st 9 games without an INT ...... then threw 6 or 7 in the next 5 games.
Most QBs have games where they "load up" statwise ... and look very average in others. Defeses constantly adjust. QBs constantly work on adjusting to the way defenses adjust to them. It's really never a finished process ..... because the cycle never ends.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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I just don't understand that when I post my opinion and back it with what I see and lay it out with football. I simply do not get debated. I get rediculed. I get insulted. But I don't get football.
Each and every week during the season, I can hardly wait to see your "what I saw" thread.
It's all opinion of course, because as has been proven about a million times, a play is played and two people can see the same thing and see it differently.
Such is the way of the world Eo.. No Harm or foul intended.. I doubt anyone has a personal vendetta towards you at all.. I truly hope that when I disagree with you, which I do from time to time, that you don't take it personally... I assure you that it's not meant that way.
Like I said, I look forward to reading your thread each week and the reason is simple, while I don't always agree with your take, I respect your take.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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just in general reflection thats all. I myself get huffy and puffy when I do feel I'm insulted and probably don't post with Kumbaya. Do I take it personal...nah, I have a temper but it only last for Seconds, minutes maybe a day if its bad enough but then its all ok. There is one who I know who hates me, but he's not here now.
I just can't wait for Football!!!
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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Well said.
I guess in the end, from my perspective...DA has earned the right to be the starter this year, and he's earned my respect by his play on the field.
There are definitely things to improve upon, and things he does well that he just needs to keep doing.
It'd be nice if people embraced him more, but this is not a perfect world.
I know fans are fickle, but I never thought I'd see so many people complaining about a Browns QB that made it to Hawaii...go figure
"My country is the world, and my religion is to do good" Thomas Paine
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It'd be nice if people embraced him more, but this is not a perfect world.
I know fans are fickle, but I never thought I'd see so many people complaining about a Browns QB that made it to Hawaii...go figure
And this is the kind of thing that ticks people off. People are embracing him just fine...they are just voicing their concerns about him. There is a difference.
Also, you guys really need to stop throwing up DA going to the PB. He was selected by guys dropping out...and he looked like crap to the point it was embarrassing. I wouldn't call that being a true PB QB, but if you do, that's fine.
Maybe this whole thing boils down to expectations. Some posters here are expecting too much and others too little. Maybe this season we'll finally have a happy medium.
#gmstrong #gmlapdance
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Regardless of how he got there, he got there. That's something that no one can take away from him.
The fact that he was even considered is quite a feat, let alone actually make it.
I know there is a difference, however, I just don't really believe that people are truly embracing him. But that's their right to do so. I accept him as the QB, flaws and all, simply because he's done things that haven't been done around here in decades. He's earned my respect. It seems at times that no matter what he does, some people just don't or won't respect him. That's my opinion of their opinion. I'm not taking or making it personal, so it should "tick" anybody off
"My country is the world, and my religion is to do good" Thomas Paine
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Okay, well then you just keep believing that you know how people really feel regardless of what they say.  Anyway, here's to having a first selection PB QB this year!
#gmstrong #gmlapdance
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All Pro
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The bottom line is the Cleveland Browns FO and CS has shown us and told us who the starting QB is... Clear as the orange on the helmets we love... Weather some here want to see, believe or accknowledge it as fact and reality does not change anything. The QB situation is clearly is what it is... Derek Anderson is the man. Until futher notice. When that changes we'll have to change too... As always... I'm staying in DA's corner on the QB deadbate... Until the facts, performance over time, FO and CS shows otherwise... I'll continue to support BQ as I have in the past too. I'll take the 10-5 or 2 to 1 odds of DA as the starting QB @ this point in time... I'm hoping that our D steps up this year and can stop the run and get off the field on 3rd downs... I'm hoping the O contines to improve and that we can go into the late 3rd quarter or early 4th quarter with some solid leads so BQ can get some qualtiy PT with the 1st team... BQ is one play away from being #1 so I'd like to see him get some experience. BQ is unproven and the back up. Why because thats it what he has earned up to this point. We are very fortunate to have him. All I know is the Browns have put themselves into a great situation and we should all enjoy it!  We should learn to take the good and enjoy it Wasn't last season a lot of fun? Until some compeling reasons arise to have future discussions on this topic I'm just going to enjoy the ride... Cause as we can all see it is what it is...
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I just don't understand that when I post my opinion and back it with what I see and lay it out with football. I simply do not get debated. I get rediculed. I get insulted. But I don't get football.
JMHO
Agreed 100%. I wish there were more people on this board that wanted to debate football, football skills, the plays, the formations, etc. without the other junk.
DA has some major issues with his game. That's simply the truth. As he is our starting QB I want him to improve and I get excited when others that want to debate football say he has improved. I would love it if DA rounds out his game, fixes his faults and becomes the Top QB in history. That would be ideal!
Get a few draft picks from Quinn and let him do his thing. As long as DA is the better QB I'm all for it!
When I point out things such as:
DA throws the deep ball to flat and is not accurate on short throws
DQ gets caught up in the wash too easily
Harrison doesn't have another gear
KW2 doesn't use his legs to block
I usually get:
29 TDs 7-0 at home!
DQ is a monster you'll see
Harrison rules, 1900 yards his senior year
KW2 is a soldier!
Hopefully we can talk more football and less drivel. We're all Browns fans. I like to talk about what I see on the field and less about my undying love for this particular player....unless that player is Joe Thomas. OK one exception. ;D
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Wrong. I don't know jack about Quinn to say he's better or worse.
My apologies. I meant I think you feel Quinn has the ability to be better. I still might be wrong, but that is the feeling I get.
#gmstrong
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They also like to put words in your mouth about who you think is the better QB.
I just got to this page.If you are referring to me, I didn't mean to say (did I actually say it?) that you think Quinn is better. It was an opinion of mine based on what I have read that you think Quinn can be better. There was no attempt to put words in your mouth.
#gmstrong
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Sure.....nobody knows football....if you don't agree....you aren't talking football, you are ridiculing. We just simply disagree. I get the impression many of you feel DA is a finished product. And most were the same who thought Couch was a good player. Nobody wanted to talk football then. Why is that??? I will tell you why....it all boils down to opinion. I wish people would quit talking about it like they have some superior knowledge. We have been friends a long time. If you want to talk to me about some business dealings, I will listen because I think you have a good understanding about business and the art of putting a deal together. You start talking about qb's in a manner that makes me feel like you know more than I, I won't. Fair enough??? And like I said....I have considered both you and Eo friends for more than a few years.....and you still are even if I just ticked you off.....at least as far as I am concerned. Just don't tick me off 
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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No, it wasn't directed to you. And, maybe you're right...maybe I think Quinn could be better than Anderson one day. But, until I see what both of them really have to offer, I still can't say for sure. I would love to be wrong and Anderson does great things for us for years to come. But, if he can't, I hope Quinn can. How's that for on the fence? 
#gmstrong #gmlapdance
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It's nice to see he's improving on his touch passes. It will be interesting to see if the footwork can be improved upon that we talked about last season. I hope he proves both of us wrong bro, because if he could ever take a lateral step and throw accurately we would have the QB spot set for awhile. I've not posted much this summer, because once I stated my position and heard others opinion, until the season begins it's pointless to restate said opinion ad nausea. It ends up getting to the point of not being able to make a legitimate football observation without people on one side or the other calling you a "hater" or Brady "brat" or whatever.
Personally, I would love for DA to pan out and for us to be able to trade Quinn at season's end for a pick. Just because I have reservations about him doesn't mean I don't like him or want him to succeed.
Anyway, your right the inability DA showed last year of being able to move laterally and throw the ball with much accuracy has always been what's bothered me the most.
Against logic,the most effective armor is willful ignorance.
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NRTU I want to keep this simple so please listen. No there will be no explanation because I don't have to explain to anyone my feelings! Brady Quinn will be the QB that leads the Browns to the Super Bowl and the longer he sits around watching the longer it will be before we get to our first Super Bowl.  Remember this is the way I feel and I don't care if any of you disagree or not! 
Just wait till next season, I have heard that for over 40 years!
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News flash... This is a Cleveland Browns message board/site... Facts opinions, views, perspectives, BS, humor, idiocy and many other things are shared and talked about on here... You and EO have a similar standard reply's that is annoying and not true much of the time... Often... IMO. "Lets just talk football"... Football gets talked much/most of the time here... One can only hope that the day comes that you and others here will drop the we're better/smarter than you are crap... Why do you/guys get involved in the topics that don't qualify or meet your standards then? Just say no... Or just don't go there... It's that simple. When pushed to your football knowledge limit on certain topics you both resort to opinion from time to time... Just like we all do... So lets not go where you are trying to go with this... Cause we all do it ... There have been solid responces to your concerns and there have been many who have given you just as many positive football responces as you have given negative... And vise versa. On this topic and others... And yes there were times when credability, consistancy and holding certain posters to their words and actions and claimed positions was necessary. BS is BS and it gets called here from time to time... Whether any of us like it or not... There are nearly always exceptions. How much time do QB's need IYO, to round out there games? For example I'm going to throw out some names to make a point, only... It took Unitas, Dawson, Starr, Namath, Montana, Elway, Young, Aikman, PM & Brady all much longer that 15 to 20 games to round out their games... They got the time to do so... So will/should DA and BQ or whom ever...
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And this is the kind of thing that ticks people off. People are embracing him just fine...they are just voicing their concerns about him. There is a difference.
I agree, it is irritating. I cheer for the guy like I cheer for any other Brown. Just because I have some issues in a couple areas with him doesn't mean I'm trashing the guy. This is a great offense, and we're on the verge of becoming a great team. When was the last time we could say that? For us to obtain our goals, it is critical for the team to make the right choices and guys to be completely prepared for each and every day.
In years past, we were just hoping to beat the Steelers once and not come in last place. Things are different now.
To his credit, he's looked much improved this camp. Scherer and DA both recognized a problem, and have worked on it. That is a big plus right there. I want to see it translate on the field.
People have to remember that we haven't had a situation like this before. We've never had ONE good quarterback on the roster, let alone 2. There was no arguing about tendencies and weaknesses, because the fact was they just flat out SUCKED.
It's a message board. Some of us talk football here on a football message board. Breaking down your quarterback is all part of it. People who get offended by it should just stay away then. I never trashed DA, I support him 100%. Some people on here act like you're saying bad things about their kid if you bring up anything negative about the guy. It's ridiculous.
![[Linked Image from pic18.picturetrail.com]](http://pic18.picturetrail.com/VOL905/3216203/6567769/349897772.jpg) "The Browns' defense is kicking mucho dupa."
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IMO There was a time when the Browns went from Kosar to Vinny Testeverde, or was it Mike Tomczak, anyway you can win with those guys, You can win with a Trent Dilfer on the Browns for a year, and you can win with Jeff Garcia on the Browns for a year. So in my opinion, The Browns are probably in a better position than last year as far as lets see, hmm
Anderson, 3 with the team 1 and a half years experience in games
Quinn, Rookie year to study, 2nd year with the team, a chance to scout a years worth of defenses, The QB situation is probably better than it has been for the Browns since probably 1994, coincedently the last year the Browns won a playoff game.
sometimes I take whats written here and I ask myself, well, who are the greatest players of all time, Kosar, Marino, Montana, Elway, Unitas, and the writings here would pick them apart.
Can Deshaun Watson play better for the Browns, than Baker Mayfield would have? ... Now the Games count.
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What this all boils down to is that we all think we know what we are talking about. What many fail to recognize is that barring a statement like "He is a right-hander" or "Romeo is the HC" everything posted on here is just opinion. Which means that every post is open to conjecture and criticism. Some can live with that and some have a great deal of trouble with that. At this point I try to refrain from posting in reply to some people's posts because it almost always results in a fight. (Of course, sometimes that's fun, too. ) As far as the QBs are concerned.......I expect them to stick with DA through at least through the first 3 games. If we're 3-0, 2-1 then it's his for the year, IMO. If we're 1-2, 0-3 then Quinn gets his chance. Expectations are too high to let the season slip away in the early going. I expect us to be 2-1 after 3. And I'm hoping for 3-0. But I damn sure want us to look better in this year's opener than we have in the last two.
"People who drink light 'beer' don't like the taste of beer; they just like to pee a lot."
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" a similar standard reply's that is annoying and not true much of the time... Often... IMO. "Lets just talk football"... Football gets talked much/most of the time here."
I would take that more seriously if it didn't come from the same source whose Football debate was to call my opinion and laid out technically on why I thought that simply with - "POOH POOH"
lol 
I've stated exactly what my fears are and have been with DA on why he just might not be our Franchise QB. A lot of it has to do with footwork...but you and another have never talked football about that. All I get is Hogwash, Pooh Pooh or simply a Footwork? 
As mentioned before. I would relish a football debate regarding DA...just don't know where it is.
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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People say stuff like "He struggled in the 2nd half of the year
He did..it's a fact..
Defeses constantly adjust. QBs constantly work on adjusting to the way defenses adjust to them. It's really never a finished process ..... because the cycle never ends.
Fact is he couldn't adjust to what the defenses did to choke him.
His lack of accuracy and bad decisions in the short areas prevented him from adjusting.
Fact..if DA implodes over a period of games he will get benched..you don't rebuild the team full of talent and have your QB hinder any success you might have otherwise.
Last edited by Attack Dawg; 08/06/08 02:58 PM.
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Geez,, haven't we heard all of this somewhere before
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
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Not really responding to you per se, Pit, but your comment here gives me pause and reason to comment on all the comments regarding those who analyze -vs- those with "agendas". (Whatever that means).
Sorry, but it happens every year. It is what it is.
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Here's a guy, a starting QB, with no mobility, had a terrible side-arm throwing motion, was constantly getting passes batted into his face, couldn't throw a decent long ball, threw 8 TDs & 7 INTs his first year and 17 TDs & 10 INTs his second year. He made the Pro Bowl his third year while throwing 22 TDs & 9 INTs, but had decreased production every year after that and never made the Pro Bowl again. He had a completion percentage of 54% his 6th year, and while he consistently made the playoffs, was never able to get past the team's nemesis and make it to the Super Bowl. Yet he has attained god-like status as a hero of Browns football. Anyone care to guess who this is?
Care to look at the odds of that? How many times does that happen, verses does not? There are acceptions to every rule. But yep, you found one. Your odds aren't very good though.
And pleae remember, you're talking about a guy who achieved two degrees in three years while playing QB. Like to compare that to who you're talking about now? Like to compare thir Wonderlic scores? Brains go a LONG way at overcoming other short comings. When you have that as a strong suit, your odds of success are greatly increased.
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To sit here and read all this drivel about how certain fans pretend to be more knowledgeable because they think their objective assessments means more than the other kool-aid drinking, orange glasses wearing fans is hilarious.
Can you see the bold part in the above quote? I never said that.
What I am saying is some are more "objective" than some others. Nothing more, nothing less. But you can add whatever suits you. Just don't try to sell it as Gospel, because that would be false.
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Especially when discussing a Pro-Bowler who threw 29 TDs and took us to the first 10-6 season since the return like he has all these untenable flaws.
That would mean you disagree. You think he IS mobile and can be "when and if necassary". You think he IS accurate on the short throws. That would mean you DO feel he has all the tools to be a "franchise QB".
Why attack the messenger? I'm just stating the obvious.
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His short game? Please.
Most ALL NFL QB's highest completion rate are in the short pass. It's DA's lowest. And it's REALLY low for short passes!
And that's "a fact". Whether that "pleases" you or not. Once again, it is what it is whether you like that or not.
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The arc on his long ball? Oh my god... It was the man's first year as a starter, being coached up, working with the receivers and the system. To me, this oh me, oh my, "what if" stuff is pure nonsense. The monkey-chatter about his fall off at the end of the season is nonsense. He went 3 of four the last four games, winning two in terrible weather. Yet Cincy & the Pro-Bowl performances are hallmark indicators of the man's true ability? Nonsense.
The point is, we "don't know". You openly admit it "was his first season as a starter". Yet you claim we should bank on what he did as a "true indicater" on his W's, without breaking down his game. You fail to look at his weak points, admit them or wonder about IF HE can overcome them. Yet, they are very legitimate questions.
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Objective assessment has very little to do with fandom in the broad sense, most fans either love a guy or they don't. Or they love him until they don't. Personally, I think Bernie Joseph Kosar Jr. sucked, I never liked the player (separate from the person) from day one, and I've stated my reasons why. Am I wrong because he was a good guy, a smart guy, and a hero who went to the playoffs? Am I wrong to think DA is a really good QB because of his arc or his short throws? Is this part of some agenda? Simple answer is NO.
The odd thing here is, you openly criticize Bernie's weaknesses, but refuse to address DA's. You critique Bernie's game quite heavily. Where's DA's critiqueing? Why do you minimize one's, while accentuating the other's? Yeah, that looks a little slanted.
But you are wrong I believe in your above quote. The "fandom" part of me hopes DA has progressed a LOT! But the objective part of me feels "seeing is believing". See the difference?
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There's no agenda, I'm not wrong, and I'm not wearing any kind of colored glasses. The guy is a good, potentially great QB, on a good, potentially great team. Does he need work? Sure. Are there aspects of his game that need improving. Absolutely. Are his weaknesses many? No, I don't think so. Not comparatively. Not when stacked against his strengths. Do I think he's better than BQ? Not right now. Did I last year? Absolutely. Do I want BQ to start over DA because of DA's arc and short throwing ability? No-freakin'-way. Can any of the studying, watching, critiquing analysis experts tell me he has not improved in his weaker areas? Not one of them can. Not one.
Can anyone tell me he "has imroved" in those areas? No, not one. Not in a "real game time situation". And I've stated as much. WE DON'T KNOW!
Which is what I've been saying all along. We have a much tougher schedule this year. My simple question is, will we see the very productive DA we saw most of the first 8-10 games last year? Or will we see the Cincy,Pro Bowl DA?
You don't know and I don't know. So quit "pretending" you do.
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Like I said, this isn't directed at you specifically, Pit... I get your overall message, but call B.S. on this entire discussion because as objective as some pretend to be, nobody really knows anything about how he's improved or how he'll do this season, and perpetuating history (like his short throw percentage or his Pro-Bowl appearance) as relevant fact is nonsense. Yes, I'd even call it nitpicking.
JMHO... Let 'er rip, boys 'n girls.
Any time a QB suits up and is on the national stage, it counts. The Pro Bowl? They aren't even allowed to blitz. The weather was great. At that point, he was due to be a FA. It meant "a lot to DA and his potential earnings in the future". He simply choked.
Once again, it is what it is. BTW- Most people say you can learn from history. And without doing that, you are doomed to repeat it. What else do we have to base his progress or lack of it on BUT his "history".
And a QB who was HORRIBLY innacurate on his short throws is "nit picking"?
All-righty then!
There are things that concern me. Rightfully so. I hope to see great improvement. But I don't bank on it until I see it.
Let me ask you a few questions and please be objective.
1. The D's we will be facing are projected to be MUCH better overall than last years outside the division.
Do you think DA will see much pressure? More than last year? If so, how much better can you teach "feet" to someone with mobility question marks at this stage?
If he gets such pressure, we saw that in 06. Will it be a repeat of that?
If they "take away the long ball", will his short passing game improve? BTW- Bernie did that VERY well!
Like I stated, I don't have the answer to these questions and neither do you. All we can do is hope for the best. But to try to minimize or trivialize legitimate question marks doesn't really help answer anything, does it?
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Is there honestly anything left to say on this subject that hasn't been said 1,000,000 times already. God don't some of you get sick of saying the same thing over and over and over. Hell I suppose it's not all that hard actually just copy and past, then re-post. Give it a rest pllllllllllleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeese, if you don't have anything NEW to say why continue to repeat the same thing...  BTTB
BTTB
AKA Upbeat Dawg
Can't believe I am in a group that is comprised of the best NOT just fans but people on the planet.
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As do many QBs. Most QBs have a part of the year where they simply are not as good and/or as sharp as they had been to that point.
Look at Bernie Kosar's career. At least 3 years in his "prime years" that I can recall included stretches of 4 or 5 games where he really had problems. One year, IIRC, he went the 1st 9 games without an INT ...... then threw 6 or 7 in the next 5 games.
Most QBs have games where they "load up" statwise ... and look very average in others. Defeses constantly adjust. QBs constantly work on adjusting to the way defenses adjust to them. It's really never a finished process ..... because the cycle never ends.
You know Y-Town, I agree 100% with what you're saying.
But let's look at those comments for a moment. You are talking about a "veteran savvy Bernie". You said you were refering to him "in his prime".
But in the case of DA, you are talking about a "first year starter". Wouldn't it be logical to see "gradual improvement" as he grows and matures instead of the opposite?
That's where the BIGGEST question mark is to me. Have oposing D's "figured him out", or did he simply "slump" at the end?
As I have said, I believe the jury is still out on that one. But we'll know soon enough now......................
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Is there honestly anything left to say on this subject that hasn't been said 1,000,000 times already. God don't some of you get sick of saying the same thing over and over and over. Hell I suppose it's not all that hard actually just copy and past, then re-post.
Give it a rest pllllllllllleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeese, if you don't have anything NEW to say why continue to repeat the same thing...
BTTB
We probably do it for the very reason that we like to see people sick of reading it continue to do so and whine about it.
Nobody is forcing you to read or respond to it.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Also, you guys really need to stop throwing up DA going to the PB.
It's the double edged sword they only wish to use one edge of.
They want to toss around the term "pro-Bowl QB" as if its "important".
But, as soon as you remind them of how he played in it? Suddenly it means nothing!
The old "have your cake and eat it too syndrome".
Or as they call it in the medical profession.....HYCAEITS
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Its funny, when people talk about an established QB like Manning or Brady you will here things like, "he put the ball where only his receiver could get to it," but when Browns fans talk about DA they say, "His receivers are bailing him out." These are two sides of the same coin.
I think there are many reasons for his fall off at the end of the season. Weather, Defenses taking away the long ball, more of a committment to the running game. A lot of things contributed to the fall off.
I wish to wash my Irish wristwatch......
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Is there honestly anything left to say on this subject that hasn't been said 1,000,000 times already
Actually, I don't think we will have any new fodder until tomorrow night
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
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Is there honestly anything left to say on this subject that hasn't been said 1,000,000 times already
Actually, I don't think we will have any new fodder until tomorrow night
Hopefully it will all be GOOD fodder!
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Whats a little fodder between Dawgs
I know I'm not the fodder! DA......I mean DNA testing will prove that conclusivly!
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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As do many QBs. Most QBs have a part of the year where they simply are not as good and/or as sharp as they had been to that point.
Look at Bernie Kosar's career. At least 3 years in his "prime years" that I can recall included stretches of 4 or 5 games where he really had problems. One year, IIRC, he went the 1st 9 games without an INT ...... then threw 6 or 7 in the next 5 games.
Most QBs have games where they "load up" statwise ... and look very average in others. Defeses constantly adjust. QBs constantly work on adjusting to the way defenses adjust to them. It's really never a finished process ..... because the cycle never ends.
You know Y-Town, I agree 100% with what you're saying.
But let's look at those comments for a moment. You are talking about a "veteran savvy Bernie". You said you were refering to him "in his prime".
But in the case of DA, you are talking about a "first year starter". Wouldn't it be logical to see "gradual improvement" as he grows and matures instead of the opposite?
That's where the BIGGEST question mark is to me. Have oposing D's "figured him out", or did he simply "slump" at the end?
As I have said, I believe the jury is still out on that one. But we'll know soon enough now......................
I will answer that even though I'm not completely sold on DA, but hopeful he can improve. No, I don't expect improvement in every case as the year goes on. The reason is that this is the second time that veteran DCs have to prepare for the QB and set up a different game plan. This is the first time that the QB has had to learn to adjust his game and adjust to a different game plan. So, it isn't out of the question that the QB would struggle the second time around. To use a baseball analogy, it's much like seeing a rookie phenom pitcher. He has the advantage of the hitter not seeing his stuff the first time out. The veterans adjust after seeing his stuff and it's not unusual for them to get rocked the next game. There is a reason for the term "sophomore slump".
Tyler, I will address your question as well. Those QBs that you referred to have shown an incredible touch on their passes through their career. They've also discussed doing such things with those covering the game. They ARE putting the ball where only the WR can get to it.
DA hasn't shown that kind of touch and definately haven't shown it consistently. Once he does, then maybe it will be easier to swallow that line. Throwing balls behind a wide open receiver and not hitting them in stride is hardly putting the ball where only the receiver can catch it. Last season, that happeend too many times. Hopefully, DA's footwork has improved and his accuracy has as well. He has shown it in spurts so far. Now he just has to do it consistently and he will have the complete package.
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Just clicking...
I'm watching NFL right now and they had Holtzman on. He reported that the Browns are being proactive in quashing any QB contraversy, from the media and the fans. Quinn has so many supporters that they feel it might be a problem.
It is obvious that the Browns are backing DA 100% at this point, and I think it will remain the case until they are sure he is not the answer.
We gave him a contract of a starter, but made it short term just in case. He is the starter, and will be. If he doesn't progress he will be gone (unless Quinn doesn't impress them)but on their schedule, not the schedule of the fans.
We paid a high price for Quinn (IMO because we didn't think we had anything here) and after last season the Browns aren't so sure that'sstill the case. If DA has a good year, Quinn will be traded, even if us fans never get to see what he can do. I think the Browns feel comfortable making these decisions without the input of the fans.
Although I think Vers blew things way out of perspective, I think the Browns feel a little bit like him when it comes to us fans. We can indeed upset the apple cart with all the clamouring for Quinn.
I don't think we lose the right to critize any player, and that includes DA. I also think there is a difference between discussing his defficentcies and nit picking a guy to death.
Not everyone who is worried about DA does this. There are also those who defend DA by unfairly attacking those that are worried. I do find it stange that we can have so much hoopla about Quinn when our starting QB is backed fully by the organization, and is coming off an overall good year.
For those of you who think DA isn't treated unfairly at all, I suggest you go back and read the countless posts in the countless threads about the two.
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Care to look at the odds of that?
I'm not talking about probability here, I'm talking about irrationality.
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And pleae remember, you're talking about a guy who achieved two degrees in three years while playing QB. Like to compare that to who you're talking about now? Like to compare thir Wonderlic scores? Brains go a LONG way at overcoming other short comings. When you have that as a strong suit, your odds of success are greatly increased.
So what? Doesn't change his production, his brain never kept a ball from being batted into his face, and I seriously doubt if you ask fans about him, they will respond that they love him because he's so smart.
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To sit here and read all this drivel about how certain fans pretend to be more knowledgeable because they think their objective assessments means more than the other kool-aid drinking, orange glasses wearing fans is hilarious.
Can you see the bold part in the above quote? I never said that.
What I am saying is some are more "objective" than some others. Nothing more, nothing less. But you can add whatever suits you. Just don't try to sell it as Gospel, because that would be false.
Read the whole thing, not just the part you highlighted. I wasn't talking about your comment specifically, but about the discussion in general... I believe I mentioned that as well, twice, in the original post.
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That would mean you disagree. You think he IS mobile and can be "when and if necassary". You think he IS accurate on the short throws. That would mean you DO feel he has all the tools to be a "franchise QB".
Why attack the messenger? I'm just stating the obvious.
I'm pretty sure you don't know what I think, or you wouldn't have posted that. What I think, (and wrote, I believe,) is that the discussion points to his flaws as though they are untenable. That they are being discussed as though they were permanent and unfixable, or that he hasn't been working to improve in those areas. That he is flawed in the extreme, even though his production and won/loss record indicate success and ability. And again, it was more of a general comment on the discussion, I wasn't attacking the messenger.
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His short game? Please
Most ALL NFL QB's highest completion rate are in the short pass. It's DA's lowest. And it's REALLY low for short passes!
And that's "a fact". Whether that "pleases" you or not. Once again, it is what it is whether you like that or not.
This is totally taken out of context. I was pointing out that these things (short game and arc) are fixable but are being discussed as though they are fatal flaws, detrimental to his career and the good of the team, when in reality, I believe it's more likely the case that these things are being worked on and from what little I've seen, he has improved greatly. Your response has nothing to do with the actual comment or thought behind it.
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The point is, we "don't know". You openly admit it "was his first season as a starter". Yet you claim we should bank on what he did as a "true indicater" on his W's, without breaking down his game. You fail to look at his weak points, admit them or wonder about IF HE can overcome them. Yet, they are very legitimate questions.
I don't claim any of that and if you read the entire post, you'll see that I do admit he has flaws and needs work, but once again, you've quoted a partial section of the point I was making, and used it out of context, apparently to make a point about something I'm not actually arguing.
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The odd thing here is, you openly criticize Bernie's weaknesses, but refuse to address DA's. You critique Bernie's game quite heavily. Where's DA's critiqueing? Why do you minimize one's, while accentuating the other's? Yeah, that looks a little slanted.
But you are wrong I believe in your above quote. The "fandom" part of me hopes DA has progressed a LOT! But the objective part of me feels "seeing is believing". See the difference?
I don't refuse to address DA's weaknesses, I just didn't think I needed to in this post, as they have been addressed ad nauseam. I was merely making a general point about blind fandom, using Bernie as an example, and pointed to his flaws as a way to make the point. It wasn't a comparison. See the difference?
In general, just so you know, I believe DA's flaws are drastically over-stated. Which is the point I'm making. I know he has them. I'm not an idiot, or blind to it. I just believe his skill, ability, physical tools, upside and potential for improvement happen to far outweigh them. Hell, if nobody had ever heard of BQ, DA would already be considered amazing. I remember when discussions on this board centered around a QBs INTs not surpassing the TD total as an indicator of a good QB, as long as there were 18 to 24 TDs, everyone would have been happy with the guy, whoever he was... So the DA bashing? It's freakin' hysterical.
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There's no agenda, I'm not wrong, and I'm not wearing any kind of colored glasses. The guy is a good, potentially great QB, on a good, potentially great team. Does he need work? Sure. Are there aspects of his game that need improving. Absolutely. Are his weaknesses many? No, I don't think so. Not comparatively. Not when stacked against his strengths. Do I think he's better than BQ? Not right now. Did I last year? Absolutely. Do I want BQ to start over DA because of DA's arc and short throwing ability? No-freakin'-way. Can any of the studying, watching, critiquing analysis experts tell me he has not improved in his weaker areas? Not one of them can. Not one.
Can anyone tell me he "has imroved" in those areas? No, not one. Not in a "real game time situation". And I've stated as much. WE DON'T KNOW!
Which is what I've been saying all along. We have a much tougher schedule this year. My simple question is, will we see the very productive DA we saw most of the first 8-10 games last year? Or will we see the Cincy,Pro Bowl DA?
You don't know and I don't know. So quit "pretending" you do.
First of all, I think it's interesting that you quote this paragraph, where I admit DA has flaws, right after accusing me of refusing to address them.
Second of all, I'm not pretending to know anything. It was a general comment on the general true ignorance (and by that I mean unkowing, not stupid) of most fans. Maybe you should quit "pretending" to know what I'm talking about. 
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He simply choked.
You don't know that. You don't have any idea why he had the game he had. Don't "pretend" you do. Could have been fatigue, unfamiliarity with the WRs, sun in his eyes, whatever.
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Most people say you can learn from history. And without doing that, you are doomed to repeat it. What else do we have to base his progress or lack of it on BUT his "history".
You're not basing his progress on anything... you're not even admitting progress and certainly can't point to a lack of it. This is a discussion better held at the end of the season.
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Let me ask you a few questions and please be objective.
1. The D's we will be facing are projected to be MUCH better overall than last years outside the division.
Do you think DA will see much pressure? More than last year? If so, how much better can you teach "feet" to someone with mobility question marks at this stage?
If he gets such pressure, we saw that in 06. Will it be a repeat of that?
If they "take away the long ball", will his short passing game improve? BTW- Bernie did that VERY well!
Objectively, I don't care about pressure, because I have faith in the line, his ability to get rid of the ball, the play calling, and the talent around him. I think he's working on his footwork and his short game. '06 has very little to do with anything... we are light years beyond those days.
You're right, we don't know anything, which was my point to begin with. Trivialize legitimate questions? How's this: I think most of this entire thread is silly because it's mostly based on conjecture and bias.
Once again, JMHO.
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/hfMNC7T.jpg) "I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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If I may say a few things. Your comparison, while I understand what you were trying to do, is terrible. I'm POSITIVE that Kosar's brains kept him from having balls batted in his face....because he adjusted his delivery to avoid that. Kosar also had an incredible touch on the ball. Add those two together, intelligence and touch, and you have two of the most important ingredients for a successful QB. Joe Montana was the same way. I'm not bashing DA, but he has nowhere near Kosar's intelligence and couldn't carry his jock with touch. Then again, few could.....so the analogy was a poor one.
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I'm not sure if you read my original post, Coach, but the comparison is about irrational fandom, and was not a QB comparison by any means. Though I'll be happy to see the comparisons of the two in seven years or so.
"I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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