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Quote:
The dude had 11 sacks as a rookie.
And followed that up with 5 more the following year when he had a worse Dline to help.,
I hate to say it, but it's almost like some are jumping to conclusions just like after the first game last season when RACs head was being called for,,
Let it play out..
#GMSTRONG
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Damanshot
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Peen, We'll see after a few games. Up to this point, I can't blame you for feeling that way.
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Any discussion of this right now is beyond premature, to say the least.
If after this season the progress still isn't being seen, then yeah, we gotta start considering it a busted pick.... but one that can still be a pretty good pass rusher.
Hall is showing up more than him a bit right now, but the expectations for him are also quite a bit lower, and so is his reputation with opposing teams.
I strongly suggest everyone just take a wait-and-see approach, as the situations for both of them will likely change over the coming weeks.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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I am not the least bit worried. Last season even though his sack total was down to 5 ( still leading the team) he had 20 qb pressures, up from 18 his rookie year. So altogether he had 25 plays putting pressure on the qb. This was in a year with a terrible d-line when they could put the left tackle on wimbley and often double team him. This preseason i have seen wimbley close to a number of sacks, even w/ rogers and williams struggling to find the field w/ injuries. With the new d-line, wimbley will need to perform, and i believe he will, as no one can deny he has shown flashes of excellence. I will admit, this is a make or break year for him just like it was for edwards last year but i'm not jumping ship yet.
Go Browns!
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coachb,
i see your point but today's society--not saying anyone here specifically--wants quick results in whatever it may be. We--and I'm guilty of this too--want to have results NOW, not later.
that being said, it takes time to evaluate players. As for Wimbley, lets see how he does after this year.
Go Browns!
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people want to build an nfl team quicker now. In the '80s, you could get 4 years like the Cowboys did and become awesome.
Unfortunately, now, because of the salary cap, a rich team like the Browns can't use its wealth to its advantage.
Go Browns!
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Quote:
I think yes.
Maybe it's time to look in another direction and consider the guy a situational pass rusher....not sure what situations those would be, but I just don't see this guy doing anything close to stopping runners or covering receivers or tight ends.
Alex Hall is better than Wimbley. I would rather start him and Willie.
Thoughts??
thank you Ballpeen!
I love this thread!
I told most of you the Day Phil Savage traded with Baltimore(our divisional rival) it would be his undoing...I like Savage i really do...but Savage just "handed" Baltimore their man
We should have taken Ngata...i almost cried that day,....the Browns have been "unable" to stop the run since the 1994 season....what does Savage do? Drafts a pass rushing linebacker and have a swiss cheese DL..that was a boneheaded move
Ray Lewis wanted Ngata...hmmm i wonder why....because Ray Ray is smart enough to know that Stopping the run in the key to winning football games....if you can hold a team under 100 yards rushing, you will win 8 out of 10 of those games
Wimbly was a project and a "major" reach...he was a light in the rear end 4-3 Defensive End Prospect....a huge reach for a 1st rounder...while Ngata was the "safe pick" pretty much guaranteed golden rock to sit in the middle of your DL....
The Browns D will look "Bad" this year....we should have drafted Ngata...i told you folks this would happen 2 years ago on Draft day when Savage made his real only boneheaded move of handing Baltimore Ngata......we should have had Ngata
We would not have had to trade for Rogers and Williams if we had Ngata....i think Smith, Smith, and Ngata makes a fine DL...we could have used those picks to shore up depth in our DB, OL, and LB.....
I said it then and i will say it now...Wimbley was the wrong pick, we should have drafted Ngata...we couldn't stop the run to save our lives, we still can't..Ngata would have went a long way in helping that
pass rushing LB are not hard to find..look at alex Hall, Joey Porter was a 3rd rd pick i do believe, James Harrison was a late rder i think, Hagans, etc...you don't need to draft a Merriman in the 1st rd to get a pass rusher
OT, DT, and DE, are in high demand because teams don't let good ones go, and smart teams don't pass up good ones...even if they don't need DL...ask Bill Bellichik...Wilfork and Seymour.....
I don't care if you have 3 pro bowl DL..if 1 falls in your lap in the draft, good teams take them anyways...Savage dropped the ball..DL was not only our "biggest need" but we had a nice 345lb DL rated the best in the draft, rated as one of the top 10 DL to come out of the draft in the last 5 years and Savage trades him to Baltimore....im still perplexed by this scenario......
Our D will be like swiss cheese this year, Wimbley will struggle our D will be atrocious because we can't stop the Run
and don't give me Rodger...the guy does have talent but he was a bum in Detroit...Detroit front 7 was awful..they couldn't stop the run if their life depended on it...i don't see Rodgers helping...because he don't give hsi 100% all
Corey Williams is a fine player, but he can't do it all himself...
Wimbley is awful against the run as i have pointed out for a long time...yet everyone defends him...he over-pursues, is out of positions, and him being so light he gets driven out of the play often..........
im just dreading the Steelers game...they most likely are going to run all over us.....
you wanna win football games, you have to stop the run. The browns had their chance to really help that...and they handed it to baltimore on a platter....
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Let's be clear about something. Savage didn't hand anybody anything. He didn't plan on drafting Ngata ... so not only did he get his man, he got another pick out of it.
I think you are 100% right that we should have taken Ngata, but quit making crap up to prove your point.
What I'm most curious about is why RAC - when asked if he wanted the run stopper or the pass rusher - chose the pass rusher.
That's the million dollar question.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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At the time I wante Ngata, but he wouldn't have made any difference in our record.
Do you remember who our OLB's were then? We needed pass rush. Romeo wanted pass rush. We got pass rush. And we didn't hand the Ravens anything. We had no intentions of taking Ngata. They would have gotten him anyway.
Man you made up so much stuff there it isn't even fair.
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I agree. I'm really starting to wonder if this board is equating itself to the main site.
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
#gmstrong
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Let's be clear about something. Savage didn't hand anybody anything. He didn't plan on drafting Ngata ... so not only did he get his man, he got another pick out of it.
I think you are 100% right that we should have taken Ngata, but quit making crap up to prove your point.
What I'm most curious about is why RAC - when asked if he wanted the run stopper or the pass rusher - chose the pass rusher.
That's the million dollar question.
I wonder the same thing. I mean, isn't it football 101, the first thing on defense, stopping the run?
I'm not concerned about our run D this year if Shaun Rogers plays up to the caliber he's capable of. Dude was dominant yesterday and I loved watching every minute of it.
As for Wimbley, he's gonna have more sacks this year. You can count on that, assuming we can cover anyone. I loved watching him and Hall yesterday, they were both getting there in unison, pure speed coming at Kitna. Way more than if McGinest was rushing. If a QB has to hold the ball for longer than he wants you can pretty much guarantee a sack or a hurried throw is coming this year.
I know I'm jumping to conclusions on that though, consider it my "bold prediction of the week." Common sense tells us that our revamped interior should help along with the extra speed coming from the outside from Alex Hall to help with Wimbley. (that's another conclusion I'm jumping to...that he's rocketed up the depth chart, perhaps past Antwan Peek)
I'm interested in seeing how the playing time is divided with McGinest in there...we can't count on him as our primary rusher opposite Wimbley anymore...he's lost a step or two, although he's still solid against the run.
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Just clicking....as I said in the beginning, I am not questioning Wimbleys ability to put pressure on the qb, so we don't need to discuss his sack totals....what about the other stuff a backer has to do??
Earlier someone said rushing the qb was his primary job. I said that isn't a backers primary job. Not every play is a passing play, and he doesn't rush on every passing play, though it is pretty close.
I am not saying Wimbley doesn't have value. I just don't think it is as a OLB, which is where we play him.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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OT, DT, and DE, are in high demand because teams don't let good ones go, and smart teams don't pass up good ones.
Smartest thing u ever said...
Problem is...You're shootin' your mouth off about something u apparently have no clue about...
Let's start with a lil' 3-4 D 101...
MOST important positions to make a success of a 3-4???...IN ORDER...
Nose (Run Clogger)
OLB (Pass Rusher)
Corner
There's your Ngata...So we go with what we think is the OLB needed...And the dude produces MASSIVE pressure as a ROOKIE...And this all happens with JUNK in front of em'...Pretty solid move if u ask the masses of the NFL I'd say... One 3-4 piece secured...
2nd year the dude has even WORSE JUNK in front of em'...A 70 year old at Nose...
They then secure #3 on the list in Wright...
They then secure the NOSE that can DOMINATE and is 10 times the talent of Ngata in Rogers...Yeah Yeah...He's a fat-ass lazy SOB...We all know the story...He's TOP OF THE LINE TALENT...
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OT, DT, and DE, are in high demand because teams don't let good ones go, and smart teams don't pass up good ones...even if they don't need DL
Right u are...
And we do what within' the 1st 3 years of a TEARDOWN of a roster???
The LT with the 3 pick in a draft...
The DT via trade...One who wore out his welcome...
The DE (DT) in a trade...One who was FRANCHISED...
Bottom line is the players are here now...The Front 4 rotation leaves ZERO EXCUSES now...Instead of shootin' thy mouth off about what YOU woulda done...Take a long look at what WAS done...By those that actually count...
I find it funny u spout off about a Nose...And in the same breath u don't give it a chance after we finally secure that Nose...
U have any clue how many guys on this board can go back to a previous draft and say THIS IS WHO I WANTED???...It's easy to 2nd guess moves when u needed EVERYTHING...
U can justifiably start bitchin' when we pass on a potential STUD at OLB or on the DL next year...Even tho we have the likes of Wimbley/Rogers/Williams...We pass on a guy at those positions in the 09 draft...THEN u can start bitchin'...NOT when a defense is sittin' there needing EVERYTHING...
Get Over Yourself... 
Go Browns!!!
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I am not saying Wimbley doesn't have value. I just don't think it is as a OLB, which is where we play him.
And exactly where would u put this guy???
Do u not understand what having JUNK in front of an OLB in a 3-4 means???
Do u start this chit EARLY just so u have a CHANCE u might be right???
U MUST let this year play out where ALL the LB's are concerned...
NO EXCUSES NOW...
All u gotta do is look at the Pittsburgh's...San Diego's...New England's...And Baltimores of the league...Look at their Front 3's...THAT IS WHAT DRIVES THOSE LB's...Baltimore loses Siragusa and Lewis becomes a non factor...Watch what happens to Pitt when Hampton leaves...Smith...San Diego with Castillas...NE with Seymour/Wilfork/Warren...
U put OUR previous Front 3's on those teams and U WILL see a major decline from the LB's...
Go Browns!!!
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What I'm most curious about is why RAC - when asked if he wanted the run stopper or the pass rusher - chose the pass rusher.
That's the million dollar question.
look at the giants... its about PASS RUSH!!!
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Alex Hall is better than Wimbley. I would rather start him and Willie.
Thoughts??
How can the experiment have failed? We won 10 games last year with Wimbley... How many have we won with Alex Hall?
Shouldn't we trust the coaches? Don't you think if they had any inkling that Hall was better that he'd be out there? There is no OLB controversy except the one created on this board by people who don't know one tenth as much as the coaches. We just have to trust that they are playing the OLB that gives us the best chance to win.
yebat' Putin
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Quote:
Quote:
Alex Hall is better than Wimbley. I would rather start him and Willie.
Thoughts??
How can the experiment have failed? We won 10 games last year with Wimbley... How many have we won with Alex Hall?
Shouldn't we trust the coaches? Don't you think if they had any inkling that Hall was better that he'd be out there? There is no OLB controversy except the one created on this board by people who don't know one tenth as much as the coaches. We just have to trust that they are playing the OLB that gives us the best chance to win.
Hall has zero business playing on run downs. That much I'm sure of. McGinest can still stop the run and in fact was valuable to us in that role.
But passing downs? IMO it's between Hall and Peek. It's borderline sad watching Willie rush anymore. He's a step slow.
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I told most of you the Day Phil Savage traded with Baltimore(our divisional rival) it would be his undoing...I like Savage i really do...but Savage just "handed" Baltimore their man
WOW, you are entitled to your opinion and all, but it's my opinion that you are jumping to conclusions entirely too early,,, let it play out.,
I hate saying this, but it sounded, back then, that Savage asked RAC what he wanted,,, Nose or pass rush.. RAC decided pass rush. So Savage had a choice,, pick Wimbley and let it go at that, or trade with Baltimore, pick up an extra draft choice and still get the man he wanted..
How that makes for Savages undoing,, I'll never know
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Quote:
Quote:
Alex Hall is better than Wimbley. I would rather start him and Willie.
Thoughts??
How can the experiment have failed? We won 10 games last year with Wimbley... How many have we won with Alex Hall?
Shouldn't we trust the coaches? Don't you think if they had any inkling that Hall was better that he'd be out there? There is no OLB controversy except the one created on this board by people who don't know one tenth as much as the coaches. We just have to trust that they are playing the OLB that gives us the best chance to win.
This response is great 
Of course it seems eerily familiar. Like maybe I've seen this exact response in a QB thread  
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And I think that when we drafted Wimbley... We had the mammoth sized Ted Washington in there... Yes he was old, but he was a RAC guy, who had EXCELLENT size. Rac put his trust in him, and thats why they passed on Ngata and took the pass rusher.
I'm glad we have Wimbley...
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While I agree he shouldn't get a free pass from criticism like he may have in the past, no way has the experiment failed and no way do I think Alex Hall is better when I have only seen him play used car salesmen.
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Homedawg... there are more problems with this post than I can count! Quote:
I like Savage i really do...but Savage just "handed" Baltimore their man
Dude- you don't take someone whom you don't want, just to keep him away from someone else's team...
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Ray Lewis wanted Ngata...hmmm i wonder why....because Ray Ray is smart enough to know that Stopping the run in the key to winning football games....if you can hold a team under 100 yards rushing, you will win 8 out of 10 of those games
...and their final record was- what- last year?
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and don't give me Rodger...the guy does have talent but he was a bum in Detroit...Detroit front 7 was awful..they couldn't stop the run if their life depended on it...i don't see Rodgers helping...because he don't give hsi 100% all
That was then.... this is now. Dude came in at weight, ready to participate, and is already showing leadership on the line... yet you know ALL about him and his potential? Guess we'd better fire Phil, since we have you around...
Here it is in a nutshell: Phil did the shopping, but Romeo made out the grocery list. At the time, the cupboard was so barren that it almost didn't matter which positions got filled in which particular order... EVERY SPOT NEEDED TO BE UPGRADED. Grab a Ngata/no 11 sacks from a Wimbley... get where I'm going with this?
Everyone was crying 9 different shades of the blues about the state of the OL in 05 and 06... then along come Steiney and Joe T. Problem (basically) solved. Last year the Smiths made us better...and now, along comes Rogers/Williams. Yet your crystal ball shows nuttin but storm clouds? And it's still preseason?
Look, Dawg- just because Phil put the pieces together in a different order than you'd like him to, doesn't mean he's screwed anything up.
Why not wait awhile to see maybe our GM really does know what's going on?
just another .02
"too many notes, not enough music-"
#GMStong
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Quoted and backed up for truthfulness.
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I guess maybe i got a bit carried away about it "being Savage's undoing" but that move could come back to haunt this franchise.
After all, looking at Baltimore, their O has cost them games, not their D
We needed ngata...we can't stop the run, and we still haven't proved we can stop the run...i got this hunchy feeling we will have that same problem this year....Newsome wanted Ngata because he knows that stopping the run is the key to being successful in the AFC north..you can't win here consistently here by failing to do that.
all im saying is this...Ngata is who we should have taken because it makes "logical" sense to do so...when building a Defense...it is the same as building an Offense....buid up your line 1st and then you add other folks
Look at the Steelers...they get multiple sacks from OLB every year...most of them not drafted very high...why? its that DL...their DL controls the LOS....4th and 5th rd picks at LB can look like 1st rders if you have a solid DL.....our DL left a lot to be desired last year.
Im not sold on Rogers....he tends to be lazy.,..and if things aren't going "his way" he tends to take plays off and not give his 100% remember Gerrard Warren? this is why Detriot got rid of him.....
Now Corey Williams i was happy with that trade, he is a good hard working young man who never gives up..but Rodgers was a "huge" gamble...and if he goes back to his old ways...he is going to flop here big time...i hope im wrong...but i just have a feeling teams are going to just cram the ball down our thoat...
Wimbley is god awful against the run...just awful....yet Andra Davis gets most of the blame...which most of the time..Davis is in position..but Wimbley gives up the cutback lane consistently....this is a problem...you cna't deny this....
even old Willie McGinest knows to string the RB outside where his help is...why is Wimbley having such a hard time learning this simple concept?
Wimbley...string RB outside please......its not rocket science....
im not questioning Wimbley's pass rushing abilities...im just saying he needs to do something with his run support and fast because he is a liability out there....teams "ran at Wimbley" last year...and i seen them doing it this preseason...everytime a team runs right at him..its a 4-6 yard gain maybe more.....
Please don't think i don't like Savage, i do like Savage he has made some good moves ala DA, Edwards, Thomas, Steinback, Fraley, etc....but its never going to change my mind that Ngata was the man we should have drafted...
im just big on Run stopping..its key....
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Quote:
There is no OLB controversy
I know that. I just don't think Wimbley is very good.
I think in time what I say about Hall and Wimbley will prove out.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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I dont know what games you guys have been seeing. When Wimbley is in, he is consistently getting pressure on the qb. Kitna was constantly having to scramble and run from the pocket as Wimbley was back there all most every snap, it was the lack of good CB coverage that screwed him as to why he wasn't getting sacks.
"I only had a couple of weeks to train, but I'm glad it happened because it gave me a chance to be a Browns player," Bell said.
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And I don't know what thread you have been reading but I already said he gets good pressure. That is why I call him a situational pass rusher.
He's not a linebacker.
How does he do in pass coverage??
Against the run??
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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I know its early but if we need a pass rusher we need to look at a guy like George Selvie or Michael Johnson in the draft. If we need a run stuffer then brian cushing would be a perfect fit. I just hope wimbley can improve and alex hall can be a steal. That way we can address CBs and get a guy like malcom jenkins or vontae davis.
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After all, looking at Baltimore, their O has cost them games, not their D
We needed ngata...we can't stop the run, and we still haven't proved we can stop the run...i got this hunchy feeling we will have that same problem this year....Newsome wanted Ngata because he knows that stopping the run is the key to being successful in the AFC north..you can't win here consistently here by failing to do that.
im just big on Run stopping..its key....
I suppose having Adalius Thomas, Terell Sugggs, Bart Scott, and Ray Lewis as his LBs had absolutely no bearing on him getting a NT either.
They already had a pass rush!!! 
LIbertatem Defendimus!!
2010 Dawgtalkers NCAA Bracket Challenge Champ!!
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And I don't know what thread you have been reading but I already said he gets good pressure. That is why I call him a situational pass rusher.
He's not a linebacker.
How does he do in pass coverage??
Against the run??
I'll answer that. He looked as good as any player entering his 3rd year learning a brand new position. He is LEARNING to play the game from a whole different perspective. You don't wave a magic wand and it happens. It takes repetition, repetition, repitition. He has the physical tools and the intelligence to improve and become a complete LB. Unfortunately, the process isn't the same as putting a bag of popcorn in the microwave and hitting a button and 2 minutes later, you have a finished product.
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The additions of Shaun Rogers and Corey Williams up front and the restoration of a complement outside pass rusher are supposed to have big impacts on Wimbley's season.
"If we can get the push in the middle of the pocket from the guys we've added, then that will improve his chances of making plays off the edge," coach Romeo Crennel said.
The key is a push up the middle which we now have and then Peek and Wimbley can come together at the QB. Knight we have not had any real rusher since Miller but he never had 11 sacks in one year (rookie year). Wimbley is a talent that needs some time to grow. We now have a GM that understands what to do to be successful. Pre season will not be anything special so wait for the real season.
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I don't disagree with that answer.
It still doesn't address the questions head on, but I don't disagree with that.
This is his 3rd year. If he doesn't pick it up and play at a high level, it leaves me feeling you are wasting your time if it takes 4-5 years to convert a player.
OJT might be fine at the grocery store since you can work there 35 years at a high level. If you are going to chew up 30-40 percent of a players career training him to be a decent player, it isn't worth it.
Not in careers as short as NFL football player.
I think I would rather him add a few pounds and just call him a DE...or would he suck at that too??
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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Quote:
Earlier someone said rushing the qb was his primary job. I said that isn't a backers primary job. Not every play is a passing play, and he doesn't rush on every passing play, though it is pretty close.
For a 3-4 OLB it is. That is the number one thing a scout or GM will consider when trying to find that tweener. They want a pass rusher. Run stuffing and coverage are not on the same level.
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Wimbley would be a horrible DE. He is an OLB and he doesn't suck at it.
Coach: In fairness Merriman played DE in college as well.
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I won't get into the details here Peen. But you are right to be concerned. All too often people get defensive about "real issues" that need addressed or that should rightfully give us cause for concern.
But I do believe this will be the year that tells the tail on whether Wimbley truely was drafted too high. IMO- It's make or break for him as to his "value" to us.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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That plan would not work.
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I am not overly concerned about production or lack thereof in any preseason game - especially defensive players, because the schemes are so vanilla in pre season. However, I to think this is a make or break year for all of our LBs imo. The excuses for guys like Andra, Kamerion, and DQ should be a thing of the past this year. We have some real talent up front this year, and not the junk of the past that DnD eluded to. If they don't produce it will be a problem with them/their abilities and not those around them.....jmho.
Against logic,the most effective armor is willful ignorance.
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I can certainly understand your concern, he hasn't shown us much in terms off all the he's supposedly done to improve and get another move or two. I know this is an exaggeration, but it seemed like every time I keyed on him this preseason, he was either getting owned, rendered ineffective or just missing. Even so, I'm not willing to give up on the guy until I see how he does with the new line. Of course, he's going to be facing better teams this year so even if puts up average production, people will be calling him a bust. 
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/hfMNC7T.jpg) "I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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J/C
I'm not a Wimbley hater or lover, but I think that his rookie year is more of a peak than a trend. Looking at Wimbley he wasn't expected to be a Lawrence Taylor, but a guy who generates maybe 8 sacks a year. I don't care if Wimbley doesn't produce 10 sacks this year, but last year he had the excuse of Grantham. This year Wimbley needs to play (that doesn't mean more sacks) more consistently. He's clearly the best pass rushing option, but shame on the Browns for not developing a solid pass rusher other than Wimbley.
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DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Kamerion Wimbley fine-tunes his
rush
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![[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]](https://i.ibb.co/6WV79RV/Browns-Coach-Sig.png)
