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Don't waste your time .... I mean U buried them with FACTS and they still make BS up .. they have one thing in mind .. FRY RAC ... and its the same cast of characters as it was 2 years ago ..
Mourg looking for the hanging tree and Peenie nitting the blindfold ...
another way to look at it (i'm talking to U and not them cause its useless talking to them .. ) ..
why don't we run NE's schemes ... well maybe cause we don't have Seymour, Wilfolk, Brushie, McGinest, Law, Samuels and Harrison ... we have guys named Rodgers (OK .. so hes comparable) ... Williams, Davis (BWAAAAHHHHHAAAA), DQ, McGinest, McDonald and Pool ...
Ok so Willie is the one constant .. difference is they had him in his prime ... now hes past it .. and hes stil OUR BEST RUN PLAYING LB .. whats that tell U??
U see these guys see a problem and just whine and moan about it .. they fail to look for the root of the problem ... they donlt know enough so it has to be the coaching ..
and this year ... Billicheck will not be the genius he has been cause there D is in some trouble .. luckily for them they play an easy schedule ..c ause if they played Dallas ... they'd get lit up for 35 - 45 ... but I;m sure the lynch mob will still find a way to blame RAC for the NE D too .. *LOL* ...
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Quote:
another way to look at it (i'm talking to U and not them cause its useless talking to them .. ) ..
why don't we run NE's schemes ... well maybe cause we don't have Seymour, Wilfolk, Brushie, McGinest, Law, Samuels and Harrison ... we have guys named Rodgers (OK .. so hes comparable) ... Williams, Davis (BWAAAAHHHHHAAAA), DQ, McGinest, McDonald and Pool ...
So are you then saying it's Savage's fault? ...'Cause I'll tell you right now it's someone's fault ...
Every team is due a bad game ... a down week ... coaches have them, players have them. They are entitled. Nobody is perfect.
But there is something missing with this team. I am convinced of that. Is it Savage? Is it RAC? Is it the staff?
I don't care how dominant the Cowboys are. Our performance was not anywhere even in the realm of respectable. And RAC quitting on the team was downright despicable.
There are way too many apologists on this board. Way too many. We could suck for 10 straight years, and people would still apologize for those making the decisions and coaching the guys.
Maybe they are both at fault. Maybe it's a mixture of the two. We can lay FACTS out on the table all day long. But unless you're in the know ... unless you're on the inside ... your facts are based on what you read and see and there is much more to it going on behind the scenes. Those are the real facts. Break it down ... analyze it to your heart's content ... but at the end of the day the only thing that matters is what happens on the field.
And those facts aren't looking too good.
You say it's the players, some say it's the scheme, some think these guys just don't have a fire lit under their arses. Whatever it is, I really don't care anymore. I just want results. This is a result-oriented world. If you weren't getting your job done at work, you'd be let go. When we get beat the way we did, someone is not getting their job done. I want Lerner to locate that person and send them packing.
This week is a pseudo shot at redemption, but we need to be competitive week in and week out. This is year FOUR under this regime. A team in year four under the same regime should not play the way they did on Sunday. Somebody needs to be held accountable.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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Travis Key
Defensive Back
Since we are hurting at S why not add him to the roster. Do practice squad players practice?
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...LINEBACKERS that have a clue of how to defend the run...
Who put them there? Who is teaching them? Why does the same wrong thing keep happening over and over again?
We HAVE improved under RAC's regime...whether that's on RAC or Savage or both? Who knows for sure? But we HAVE improved...everyone will give you that.
It is my opinion that RAC has taken this team as far as he can...that he topped out once we became "respectable".
Fair or unfair, I don't think his "way" will ever get us to the next level. He makes entirely too many gameday gaffes...his "we've got to get back and try to get better" mantra will NOT get us to the next level.
It is a very rare head coach who can take an awful team from awful to perrenial playoff caliber. The mindset of the players and today's "environment" makes it very difficult. I don't think RAC has that rare quality that a Cowher or a Jimmy Johnson had/has.
Sure...some people make a knee jerk reaction to a loss...I know I did after opening day last year...
HOWEVER...
RAC has shown a pattern of ineptitude as a head coach. That pattern manifested itself - again - on opening day - again.
We are poised to go to the next level...and I don't think RAC can get us there...and that opinion has been developed over 3 full seasons...4 pre-seasons...4 opening day games...and numerous "What in the world is he thinking?" moments during that timeframe.
Could I be wrong? I hope I am! I just don't THINK I am.
Some of us...I think everyone of us who is questioning RAC to this point on this board...have done so without being overly emotional about "ONE LOSS". It's not about this ONE loss. It is the pattern mentioned above.
I see more emotion - and insults - from those who disagree with the anti-RAC sentiment on here than I see from the anti-RAC group themselves.
You obviously know more about football than I ever will...but I challenge you this: Tell me why I should think that RAC IS the guy to take us to the next level? What are the things about him and the way he does things that should make me a believer...make that make me a re-believer.
(You may take this wrong...as if I am calling you out. But I rarely - if ever- engage in that kind of posting. I am looking for some good debate and some good reasons as to why I should continue to be patient.)
One caveat:
Please don't throw out the 'continuity' word...the reasons need more substance than that.
Oh...regarding expectations? For what it's worth...I did not expect to beat Dallas. So my expectations are safely in check in that regard.
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Rish, I'm with ya on this. This is someone's fault. Figuring out who's is the tough part. For myself I'm becoming more and more convinced it's Romeo. I don't care that he's not fiery on the sidelines and I don't care, frankly, that the players love him. Because if they really loved him they'd play better. At least better than they did on Sunday. We have too many games like Sunday's. This far along it's unacceptable. Savage is hardly without blame. The players he's picked, with a few exceptions, are average. But even with average NFL players we should play better than this on a week-in, week-out basis. Savage has more rope than Romeo. So I think a really poor showing against Pittsburgh may get Romeo "Charlied". GMs usually get to live and die with their pick for HC. And Romeo isn't really Phil's guy. And even if he was GMs usually get a 2nd try before they get shown the door. I'm not quite the alarmist that this post may make me appear. But if I were Phil I'd have Marty Schottenheimer and Bill Cowher on my speed dial. Because as I sit here the best I see us doing at the bye is 1-3. Thank God for the Bengals....... 
"People who drink light 'beer' don't like the taste of beer; they just like to pee a lot."
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Because as I sit here the best I see us doing at the bye is 1-3.
I love these type comments...Tell me THAT ain't emotionally driven... 
We just lost to what I SEE as the BEST TEAM IN THE NFL...That's right...Better than the defending bowl champs who have LOST 90% of that defensive pressure they had...Better than New England who has a severely ageing defense...They are officially SCREWED without Brady...That OL is not built to run the ball...And run is what they better do or they might see a 6 win season...
Dallas is TOP NOTCH at virtually EVERY POSITION ON THE FIELD....
And the Browns come into this game...Game ONE of the season with this...
A QB who hadn't practiced in WEEKS
A #1 WR who hadn't practiced in WEEKS
A #1 RB who hadn't practiced in WEEKS
A #2 WR who goes down in warm-ups
A #3 WR on the PUP list
A #1 RG down for awhile (TUCKER)
A #2 RG down for awhile (HADNOT)
A #1 NT AND DE who are still adjusting to a 3-4 defense
A #1 SS playing on a bum knee
A #1 FS OUT with a concussion
A STUD Return man OUT
Not sure about this but that sure might look like a team DEVESTATED with injuries UP & DOWN THE LINE...
So...We lose to the BEST TEAM IN THE NFL WEEK ONE and we all of a sudden SUCK and it's Crennel's fault...LMMFAO...
U guys are WAAAAAY too damn emotional about a loss...
Now we have virtually all of the above injuries back...Minus Jones...Stallworth is listed as day to day and my guess is he will go Sunday...They found NO TEAR...Only a strain...He'll be a GO come Sunday...
Now comes Pittsburgh at home...A team that SPANKED US GAME ONE last year...A year that started with YOUTH...An unsettled QB problem...A ROOK LT...A NEW LG...A NEW RG...A NEW RT...A NEW RB...An 80 year old NT...A ROOK Corner...A First time starter at FS...
Then came game TWO against this same Pittsburgh team and WHIPPED THEIR ASS ALL OVER THE FIELD AND LOST IT LATE...THAT is the game that set us up for the following year and the foreseeable future...We add talent...WE CATCH PITT IN THE TALENT DEPARTMENT...
It's too bad u guys can't see it...But this team is MUCH BETTER THAN WHAT THEY SHOWED SUNDAY...
I'll say it AGAIN...We will see a MUCH better defensive showing Sunday...And we see a MUCH MUCH better offensive showing Sunday...And we will see a MUCH better special teams showing Sunday with Cribbs back in the line-up...
Imagine that...We get ALOT of our guys back and some practicing for TWO WEEKS IN A ROW...
I GUARANTEE A WIN SUNDAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!...
Then comes Baltimore...With an Offense that's WORSE than they've fielded in the last 5 years and a ROOK at QB...
Then comes a Cincy team who STILL has a defense that can't stop the run OR passing game of ANY team...
Yeah...We'll be 1-3 at the Bye...Name the price...I'll TAKE IT...
Go Browns!!!
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I GUARANTEE A WIN SUNDAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!...
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I love these type comments...Tell me THAT ain't emotionally driven...
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You sure have some faith in our coaches and players, without Jones and Stallworth, I dont see how the Browns actually win this game. I know some are in panic mode, but your kinda on the other side of things here.
Realistically the Browns have shown nothing all camp, pre-season that leads anyone to beleive they have improved of defense. Without improvement there, we wont be beating many winning teams, this game is huge sunday whether fans or coaches wanna admit it.
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It's the key game of the season. It sets up the right mojo, or will be viewed as the point where it all fell apart.
I'll guarantee you the Steelers view it as the cornerstone game. The game to stomp their main competition for the division.
Last edited by Ballpeen; 09/11/08 07:58 AM.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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I GUARANTEE A WIN SUNDAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!...
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I love these type comments...Tell me THAT ain't emotionally driven...
LMAO...Good One... 
Go Browns!!!
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6. The Browns defense looked incredibly slow. One of the things I notice on a slow defense is the play of the inside backers. The Browns need to get faster and better play from their inside backers. Andra Davis and D’Qwell Jackson need to step up their game. http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/2008/09/national-football-post-tavern-talk-17/
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I'll guarantee you the Steelers view it as the cornerstone game. The game to stomp their main competition for the division.
This is one of the vital problems with us never beating the Steelers. RAC always go on as "its just another game, but important because its divisional". Until we look at this game as a special game and play more physical and dominate them, we will continue to lose.
Your right the Steelers dont view this as "another game", its a STATEMENT game. Until we treat it like that, nothing is gonna change.
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I know some are in panic mode, but your kinda on the other side of things here.
Fans might be in "Panic" mode...But the Browns aren't...Guarantee THAT too...lol...
The Browns will have looked at the tape...Determined what went wrong...And move on with Pitt planning...They did the same exact thing last year after the game 1 debacle...And came out clickin' on all cylinders...That's what decent NFL teams do...
LAST WEEK IS DONE AND MEANS NUTTIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Want another "Guarantee"???
Falcon fans all over Georgia are thinkin' "Man, we're gonna be good this year"...
Wait till Ryan goes on the road for the 1st time this week in Tampa...Tampa's gonna stack the line and shut down Turner...Ryan's then gonna look like a deer in the lights...I see anywhere from 2-4 picks coming and TAMPA WILL STOMP ATLANTA....And I mean STOMP...Blowout of the Week and Atlanta and their fanbase come down to earth...
Much like Browns fans will come down to Earth after we BEAT Pittspuke Sunday...
IF we LOSE???...I CEASE POSTING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Go Browns!!!
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You sure have some faith in our coaches and players, without Jones and Stallworth, I dont see how the Browns actually win this game. I know some are in panic mode, but your kinda on the other side of things here.
Yeah..EVERY TEAM FACES injuries..the best teams respond and don't hid under a rock..they plug players in and get rolling.. I don't doubt the Browns can beat the Steelers..didn't they show last year they coulda beat them? It was poor tackling and execution on key drives that sunk the game..not injuries.. The same factors will be in play Sunday..not injuries.. But maybe we should fire Rac and replace him with....with...somebody minutes before the game starts.. After the draft and FA I mentioned that the weak areas on the team would be at LB/Secondary..mainly corner..it's the sacrifice Phil had to make to make the Dline a strong unit..and they need some game to work together.. Bank it that he will concentrate his efforts in the offseason on upgrading the back 7..
Last edited by Attack Dawg; 09/11/08 08:17 AM.
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Bank it that he will concentrate his efforts in the offseason on upgrading the back 7..
U BET YOUR ASS HE WILL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
And maybe a RB thrown in there...
I can see TOP TALENT coming in 3 positions...Via FA and the draft rounds 1-2...
FS (Pool's Concussions HAVE to be a concern)
CB (Might be a 3...But a top notch 3...None of this Cousin BS)...
OLB...
ILB to go with Bell...
Go Browns!!!
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I'm also curious if Jones knee is the same one he hurt when he was drafted..
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Yeah..EVERY TEAM FACES injuries..the best teams respond and don't hid under a rock..they plug players in and get rolling..
Your right the best teams respond, if we are in that elite class then we will respond. This is the whole point, the Browns looked awful last week, I dont care if it was the Boys or not. Its the same garbage that lost them the Pitt game last year!
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It was poor tackling and execution on key drives that sunk the game..not injuries..
And what has changed since last year? Did we just miss tackles last week because it was the Cowboys? Is Andra and DQ suddenly going to play good fundmental football?
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..didn't they show last year they coulda beat them?
No offense Attack, but the Browns should be WAY beyond moral victories! I dont care if we coulda beat anybody, we looked like we coulda beat them at home in 2006. That was last year, this NOW...those 10 wins last year dont help in 2008.
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But maybe we should fire Rac and replace him with....with...somebody minutes before the game starts..
I'm not on the fire RAC bandwagon, he may not be the best coach but there isnt anything better out there right now. Plus as you say its to early in the season to start labeling winners and loosers. But RAC had better show something to this city pretty soon, like beat a good team or a rival.
If this really is a good team, then we all need to stop giving away passes and making excuses. Good teams overcome that, so either we are good and no more excuses for players and coaches or we are still with the wannabees crying over everything, wanting to give people 9 chances to prove something.
This team is talented we know that, unfortunatley that doesnt mean its a winner this season. On paper talent doesnt mean much, and that on paper talent hasnt shown jack crap this season, pre-season or camp.
I'm not in panic never was, I just dont think this team is quite as good as alot of fans think. i also think we are one the most poorly coached teams in the NFL, we areconsistently flat and unprepared. Im not saying thats all on RAC or that it won't change. I have said many times....this season will show us all we need to see about some players and our coaching staff........how well do they deal injuries, problems, facing good teams. The book is clearly still out on RAC, his issue comes when talent doesnt produce results...thats when the issue comes...which is why this season will show either results or just more "potential".
The test of a champion is not working hard when things are going smooth, its fighting when things arent going your way and still finding a way to get it done.
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Why do you think the Browns looked bad? One..they hadn't had all their players together for any length of time in TC and preseason.. U could see it in Edwards/DA and a few others.. On defense ..well as has been mentioned the back 7 are clueless on how to defend a superior offense..  I think the Dline will be o.k.. They will get better each week..watch.. No offense Attack, but the Browns should be WAY beyond moral victories! I dont care if we coulda beat anybody, we looked like we coulda beat them at home in 2006. That was last year, this NOW...those 10 wins last year dont help in 2008.
Not talking about moral victories..I said we lost the Squealer game because of poor execution and missed tackles..not injuries.. Fixable things..
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I thought the DL played ok against Dallas, not great but far better than the LB's. I agree with you that they are fixable, but these same problems keep happening even with new players coming in. They are fixable problems and they better get fixed now.
The problem is that the same terrible LB's will take the field again against Pit.
I would say the best strategy us is pray.... 
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That was a pretty strong reply. You seemed to take things rather personally. You do know that 'you' doesn't always mean the person that is being responded to. It can be used in a general sense and refer to more than one person. But you probably already know that since you scored high on a wonderlic test or implied that you could since you would like that to be a requirement to post on this board (insert "roll on the floor laughing graemlin" to really emphasize the sarcasm and personal shot and make me look really smart).
You might just be the most insecure poster on here. How many temper tantrums have you thrown only to disappear for long periods of time? My personal favorites are your farewell emails ... warning us that you won't be around for awhile because we are not as smart as you (insert several "roll on the floor laughing graemlins" to make me look really smart). I've always gotten a chuckle out of those.
And you ask if I'm 20 BRO? (insert several "roll on the floor laughing graemlins" to make me look really smart)
So I have false expectations because Savage spent the first FOUR years building an offense. I guess we'll have a complete team in 2012. Never mind that he's picked several players that play on the D side of the ball ... players that by your own acknowledgment aren't up to par ... yet you say that Savage has been building the O ... let's see Wimbley, DQ, Wright, McDonald, Pool, Williams, etc., etc. ... the entire D just about was built by Savage. Sounds like he's been building both to me.
So tell me, who's at fault here for those guys not performing well ... RAC or Savage?
Savage has only focused on the O? That's so wrong on so many levels. The entire starting unit with the exception of Jones are Savage guys.
So tell me what should my expectations be? After four years with the same coach and GM, what should my expectations be?
And if you tell me that my expectations should be something like we saw on Sunday because the Cowboys are this great team ... then I'm still going to ask the question WHY. Why, after four years, should that be the expectation? I'm still going to want to know who is responsible for that ... then we can debate whether that should be the expectation after four years under the same leadership.
Did you comprehend that BRO? Or am I going to get another response with about a dozen of those graemlins so you look like a hot shot?
Never mind. I already know what the answer is.
(insert several "roll on the floor laughing graemlins" to make me look really smart)
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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Good stuff, Diam, as usual. You are right though, you are wasting your time on the knee jerk folks, they are the same every year and every year they sway with the wind depending on it's direction, instead of really looking at things in depth. They'd rather whine about how you hurt their feelings instead of listening and actually trying to learn something.
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Good stuff Rish.
Some people have to find ways to convince themself they know more than others, so they hit a message board and talk about others being clueless and whining.....and year after year the team doesn't perform and they continue to tell people they whine and don't have a clue.
Pretty funny really.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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Or some people really don't have a clue. 
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Reading some of the ridiculous replies on the Browns board and this one is all I need to convince me..I don't have to pump myself up to see how much in a ostrich hole some are
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Romeo was brought here because of his defensive genius. U know the guy that can put receivers at corner and win super bowls. Yet here we are in his 4th year and we still see a team that doesnt create turnovers, doesnt stop the run, doesnt defend the pass, they dont even tackle well.
We continue to dwell at the bottom in virtually every single defensive statistic. This team is ill prepared for most games. Players look lost and confused, you remember it was because Grantham didnt communicate well with players.
When you replace virtually every player on defense twice, you start coming to the conclusion that maybe there is more than personnel issues involved.
Defenses are supposed to confuse the offense but folks the only ones that look confused is our defense.
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Actually, we agree even if in a ironic way.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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No doubt....the guy is like Brian Billick...the mastermind who's unit of "specialty" always sucks.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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I dunno in some ways reading different message boards, I dunno why it is that so many think that your just being stupid to criticize the coaching staff.
Sometimes I think that people don't want to put all thier eggs in a basket so that whatever the outcome they are right.
It doesn;t make you retarted to get pissed when and if the team looks bad, your no more of a knee jerk than the guys who sit on the fence and say quit whining, and continue to say "oh were fine", when year after year were not fine.
In this case I don't agree totally with either side, but thats just a trend I see.
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Quote:
I dunno in some ways reading different message boards, I dunno why it is that so many think that your just being stupid to criticize the coaching staff.
Sometimes I think that people don't want to put all thier eggs in a basket so that whatever the outcome they are right.
It doesn;t make you retarted to get pissed when and if the team looks bad, your no more of a knee jerk than the guys who sit on the fence and say quit whining, and continue to say "oh were fine", when year after year were not fine.
In this case I don't agree totally with either side, but thats just a trend I see.
There certainly are a lot of variables. My "eggs" are all in the lack of offensive production,...i.e. the best defense is a good offense. But that's just my opinion.
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Here are the facts...
Phil inherited a bunch of 4-3 lineman from Butch; Courtney Brown, Myers, Ekuban, Lang. The only 3-4 lineman he came in with was Warren, and he was quickly shown the door. Likewise, there were no 3-4 type linebackers on hand. So Phil basically started with zero and had to populate his entire front seven with 3-4 compatible players.
He also had to build an offensive line, find a franchise QB, and get a starting RB to replace William Green and Lee Suggs. And get two starting WR's. He decided to start on the offensive side of the ball, which slowed down the building of the defense.
He used his two highest draft picks on offense; Edwards and Thomas. He used a 1st and 2nd round pick on the franchise QB. He used 3rd round picks on Frye and Wilson. And he used the bulk of his free agent money on Steinbach, Bentley, Shaffer, Lewis, Jurevicius, and Stallworth.
By contrast he used only one 1st round pick (Wimbley) and three 2nd's (Pool, Jackson, and Wright) on defense, and his only big FA signing was Baxter. The rest were aging placeholders (Washington, McGinest, Fisk, Cousins) or journeymen (Smith, Smith, Peek, Orr, Ralph Brown).
Now it's the defense's turn. This year Phil used his 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 6th, and 7th round picks on defense. Assuming Bell and Hall become productive starters along with Rogers and Williams, that's four new starters he added in this draft. Add them to his earlier high picks (Wimbley, Jackson, Pool, and Wright), plus McDonald, and I think we have a solid foundation. Next year I expect Phil to concentrate on defense again in the draft.
As for this year, we should begin to see the "viability" of the defense starting to emerge after the bye week. Starting with the 5th game we get, in order, the Giants, Redskins, Jaguars, Ravens, Broncos, and Bills. None of those teams have offenses remotely close to that of the Cowboys, although the Jags can be pretty good. By then Sean Jones and Pool should be back and Bell/Hall may be ready to contribute at linebacker.
And all miscommunications in the secondary should be ironed out. I expect the Browns defense to show something during that stretch between the bye week and the Colts game, assuming the entire defensive backfield isn't on IR by then.
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Legend
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I think the defensive talent for the most part is here... If we could be as deep at corner as a team like the Cowboys, then we would be pretty close to perfect.
In time, our defense will click, and do more playing than thinking. I think we can all agree that our front 3 is set with Rogers, Williams, and the Smith boys. Our LB's must get use to taking advantage of the offense. They are not use to having mammoth size linemen. They are use to getting jammed at the line for the most part.
It would be very nice if they dominated the Steelers this week. Let's hope that this is the week our defense clicks. A few injuries may keep that from happening, but they can still play a better game than last week.
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Joined: Sep 2006
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Legend
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Legend
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Thanks, Attack.
A voice of reason is always a welcome thing.
Here's a (very) simple breakdown that explains why we've looked like we have:
TC injuries + "new parts" = lack of chemistry
lack of chemistry = flawed production
flawed production = disgruntled, concerned fans.
There's every possibility that this team could play better than it did last week and still come out on the short end of the scoreboard. Don't get me wrong- I'd LOVE to get a Browns win over Pittsburgh as a birthday present, but let's be honest- there's a LOT of chemistry left to build...
I ain't too worried yet. It's a long season.
.02
"too many notes, not enough music-"
#GMStong
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Joined: Sep 2006
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Legend
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Quote:
It's a long season.
That goes by in a blink.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Did I also forget to mention the Boys DC(anyone remember Grantham?) was able to prepare them for the 34?
Last edited by Attack Dawg; 09/12/08 02:43 PM.
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Joined: Sep 2006
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Legend
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Grantham is not their DC, he is the defensive line coach.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Quote:
Did I also gorget to mention the Boys DC(anyone remember Grantham?) was able to prepare them for the 34?
Sure.
If Grantham was their DC.
Edit: Oops, didn't see ya Prp. 
Last edited by Thebigbaddawg; 09/12/08 02:19 PM.
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Ughhhh..I meant to say the Boys DC had help from Grantham in preparing them..dang oversight on my part
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This whole "This is someones fault" quote is freaking hilarious. 
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