DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum RAC Debate...Stay or Go?

I'm hoping for some Intelligent debate on this subject...its not as emotional as a QB debate but pretty close. Usually there are opinions on this subject drawn with a line in the sand and nobody willing to cross it.

Some of this was in the form of a question from the other board...yes, I cut and pasted and am posting it here as a thread and instead of juvenile absurdity I am hoping and expecting solid debate in this forum.

The question that was asked was can I or anyone show any case of RAC being a Smash Mouth coach regarding on how we have played. I of course answered and then simply got on a roll on why I think RAC should continue...not only RAC cause its a team effort that we have built here.

GM (Savage), HC (RAC), OC (Chud), DC (Tucker) - this team are all on the same page. If things are bad and RAC goes if it gets to that level probably Savage goes cause he fails too. Chud and Tucker will not remain here (maybe one of the two) but we will be starting all over again. To have these 4 individual in an organization all on the same page is Priceless and spells success just by going through the process! This is the jist and foundation of my opinion regarding the debate. The following is why I think it will work and why I want to see it through as a fan! Thanks in advance for the solid debate ahead.

The Pit is the pit and thank goodness the game hasn't changed enough needed to play in the PIT.

The game has changed though and another positive with RAC, with all his experience and years in the NFL he doesn't dictate a certain style of preference but rolls with the times and unfortunately RULES OF THE DAY.

When he first came here he hired MO to run the O they shared a lot of philosophy but there was a rift with the OL coach. MO wanted an IN-LINE blocking scheme which is predicated on POWER and strength (See the Cowboys OL) While Davidson recognizing how hard it is to get 5 with the speed and Power for that to be successful went with the Flavor of the 21st century...The Zone blocking Scheme which opens the doors to technique and execution over Who is the strongest "SMASH MOUTH TEAM"

We ended up getting rid of both of the combatants but RAC learned. Certain SMASH MOUTH procedures have to give way to what the era dictates. So if you ask me RAC is a smash mouth kind of guy but he on the O side of the ball he went with what he felt was best for our team and this era!

On the DL of the ball we simply didn't have the talent in our front 7 as well as the 3 up front. This is the first season that we invested highly into it. It has to take and it most definitely is Smash Mouth - But you need the talent. Big and Strong and FAST!!!

An example of our smash mouth ABILITY you ask for any SIGN? how bout this. All of 07 - Every 3rd n short...every Goal line stand. The only success of memory was when/if the O would fake the run and their Mano a Mano Smash mouth football against us and catch us usually with our pants down with a pass.

But in almost every occasion we won that SMASH MOUTH CONTEST! Not only once...but several times twice as they tried again on 4th down!

So don't try to tell me that we see no character of hard nose football from RAC and his team.

As for the smash mouth people talk about.

1. They usually reflect on their HS prowess where they spilled their guts every Friday nite or Sat...lol usually as the years bore on the Folk Lore takes hold. But go watch some tape of yourself and tell me how tough you were! Its what you imagine yourself as. Now multiply the weight and speed.

2. We also reflect on the good ole days. Where DBs were allowed to make anyone pay if a WR caught a ball in the middle. Or even if they were just there. Of course then Darryl Stingley happened and the changes started.

3. We also reflect on the Macho game of years past where players Head Slapped, Gouged Eyes, Punched in the ribs, solar plexes, clothes lined...oh and QBs actually got hit. Then came TV and the slow mo replays and marquee players like Troy Aikman sustaining like 13 concussions.

The Smash Mouth era of NFL football is over. Don't get me wrong, its still a tough brutal game. They are all Bigger (I remember when a 275 lb OLman was the big guy! lol ) The are all faster...350 lb Rogers is probably faster than 90% of the LBs of yesteryear.

They are all stronger. Strength and Conditioning has grown to a knew Science and challenging the limitations of what a body can take!

AS this thread winds down...and I gave my opinion...no need to repeat.

But RAC is the right guy...he knows his football he has the mentality to change for the better we have seen this. All this crap about continuity is bad if you don't have the right thing going is just that Crapola. Continuity is a work in progress...just like it took time for Belicheck to make it work, He didn't do it by sticking with the same thing...he changed. Well I see RAC having that same ability. You all are so shy and actually ANTI-Macho that you don't have the guts to play something out as a fan.

And its not your fault...you have been conditioned by hard times with the Browns that WHOA IS ME attitude takes over and beckons for a change.

Well change doesn't bode well for football. Modell always changed direction...the only Championship he oversaw was the last legs of the only continuity program the Browns ever saw!

Snyder of the Redskins always has changed direction. We see a team loaded with talent going nowhere each and every year.

Change is not the way to go. Leadership and the ability to change within is the way to go. And RAC has shown he has that ability. Heck we are talking about a coach who with no talent at all devised the SATELITE D of 2000 if you don't think he isn't afraid to change...lol

He went with the change with Chud's offense and the Zone blocking Scheme. I see more and more different looks on Defense going to 4-3...3-4... 3-2-6. So don't give me this Hogwash...we need to change and start anew. If there is a change needed RAC is not afraid to change with the times.

Look here is the reality of it all!

We are not as good as the 10 win season of 07 indicated to most. But we are a team getting better.

We are not as bad as the team looked (and as bad as it was it was not a total Titanic ) We have had a slew of key injuries to this team that lacks depth over the last month and still raging on. Most not season ending but definitely Season beginnning! Stuff happens. Deal with it.

We are going into game two and a game where we still are going to limp in and try to muster a win that is very important but not season ending as last year's SB champs started out 0-2.

Everyone who is looking for a witch hunt. Either simply doesn't like RAC from the beginning cause of their own reasons. Or simply don't have the foresight or resolve to stick it out in a tough situation. I don't know maybe as a fan living only one year in Cleveland 44 years ago and Choosing to be a Brown's fan sort of built me up for this kind of resolve. As apposed to some who became Brown's fans by birth feel that WOAH is me attitude and seek pity and don't BELIEVE enough to ride this baby out thick or thin???

You know what was WHOA IS ME? When there was no Cleveland Browns. I could have become a Giant fan, Jets fan...instead I stopped watching NFL football and coached 3 teams on Sunday...and when I wasn't coaching I would announce games. Anything involved with FOOTBALL...just not NFL! Cause that truly was the WHOA IS ME part of being an NFL FAN. No Browns...No football!

Man, win or lose...I don't care if we go 7-9...well I do care. But if thats what it is, that is what it is. As long as we stay the course and build what we got into something better and not start from square one again!

Sorry for the Soap Box...now a poster is going to say AGAIN! you nauseate me...Annoy me - What do you know you aren't in the FO...yada, yada, yada.

I know simply from years of watching the game, studying the game, breaking it down. RAC might not be perfect. He might even be a work in progress. Guess what so is Savage, Chud and Tucker. But they are all on the same page and are willing to grow together. When you got that you will have success cause the PRODUCT WILL GET BETTER.!!!

as always JMHO

Touchy subject for a few posters.. there is a clear divide between those that want him gone now because they think he's not the guy that can lead this team to a superbowl and those that feel the talent has to be there and to play consistently for ANY coach to lead a team to the superbowl,

If RAC had come in for the first year last year, there wouldn't even be a discussion.. He'd have come in and gone 10-6... And people would have said,, wow, amazing job.. RAC is the MAN..

The problem with that is that last year was the first time that we can all honestly agree that this team had talent.. At least since it's rebirth in 99 anyway.

RAC was here when the team had to be completely torn down and rebuilt. Some of the parts we picked up to do that or to just get us over the hump so to speak, aren't with the team anymore. I'm speaking of guys like Coleman or Andruzzi or Ted Washington for instance.

They've been replaced with younger more capable players. And you saw that last season.

So because RAC has a losing record as a HC, I get the feeling that some on here just don't think he can pull it off. There are those that think he can't because he's not a Game Day Coach, makes bad decisions, doesn't motivate his players, etc etc.. we've heard it all before.. (wasn't there one poster on here last year that said he can't be a head coach because he's too fat )

This is the part where I say,, in the end, they may be right.

But for right now, I just don't think it's time for him to go. He's finally got some talent to coach. Let's see how he does.

This may be the year we see him exceed everyones expectations or it may be a short year for him. Who knows..

Oh, and it's time to be honest with ourselves as well.. This team appears improved,, even from last year (although you couldn't tell it against Dallas) But it's not a team that is really ready to contend for a SB.. Not yet, but I get the overall feeling that it's on it's way.

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But RAC is the right guy.

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Yep.

Poll, er debate is over.

Next!

Stay or go?

The Browns could go 8-8 this year and still be an improved football team, so its hard to make a quantitative argument (re: number of wins) about at which point a coaching change should be made. I'm gonna say anything worse than 7-9.

More important to me is how they play - whether they show up prepared to play, whether they execute what they should execute, whether they show improvement in areas of weakness (penalties, mental lapses, run-stopping, pass-rush), and whether they prove to be a poised, mature team at crunch time. Failures in those areas will indicate to me that Crennel's message is not getting through and that a change should be made.

I don't really agree that changing head coach necessarily means you blow up the whole organization. Savage could pull the trigger on a change and still stay, even if he would be putting his own head on the chopping block if it didn't work out. Chudzinski could stay under a new head coach, or he could be the new head coach. I haven't seen enough of Tucker to know if I even care if he stays ...

I love the way Chud runs the offense.... Tucker better start showing me something and Savage has put some very talented players on the field and is aggressive in the o.s. However, Romeo just doesn't do it for me. I like my coaches to show a fire celebrate with the players and knock them on their *** when they do something wrong. Much like Cowher. *hint hint*

I think its a little early to start looking at RAC. I'm more worried about the DC Tucker. The D (1st team) looked bad in preseason and again against Dallas. Some of his 3 man rushes looked pretty bad on TV. I don't think our personal is as bad as it looked. RAC is supposed to be a Defensive genius and the team hasn't looked it. Some of his clock management and the FG last week make him look kind of detached. His choices foe asst coaches have not impressed either. But lets wait a couple of weeks and see where we are with regard to RAC.

The rift between Mo and Jeff Davidson was so bad that they refused to even talk to one another. RAC didn't solve the issue. Phil had to step in and make the decision for him by firing Carthon and as the offense did not improve under Davidson, he ended up firing Davidson as well.

The HC should have taken care of this situation long before phil became involved. His inability to make decisions hurt this football team. Look no farther than his coin flip for quarterback. Most reports stated that Romeo felt DA was the better QB and he is the QB that Chud wanted to start but instead of making the tough decision, he waited for Phil to resolve the situation for him by trading away Charlie.

That lack of leadership and decision making is disturbing. It is not what one expects from a head coach.

The clock management of the Browns is horrible. There has been to many close games where you know that you are going to need time outs and yet we waste them on stupid challenges we have no chance to win and even wasted them to get our punt team on the field. We even wasted a timeout in a close game to see if we should challenge. Then we challenge and lose it. 2 timeouts wasted for nothing.

The field goal try last week is yet another example of poor decision making. That attempt assured defeat. It was an awful decision any way that you look at it.

Now to the defense.

What really bothered me last year was how horrible Ted Washington was practicing giving no effort at all and yet he not only retained a roster spot but was also the starter until injury.

The poor tackling on this team is a result from the no hitting camps we run. You play like you practice and I know everyone has taken a back step on hitting in camp but man this defense needed to hit something.

The pure lack of aggresion and creativity on defense is an issue. This is romeo's baby. The O was taken away from him and the D was supposed to improve since the players didnt like Grantham but there is no difference at all in this D.

Shaun Rodgers, Corey Williams or Jason Fisk and Alvin McKinley it doesnt matter. It is the same defense and the same results.

Rac does not give us a better chance to win on Sunday and thats really all it boils down to.

I'm not that wild about RAC and I don't think he's that great of a game day coach. I will say in fairness, it's complicated trying to make a valid assessment when the ambulance has been backing up to the complex in Berea on a daily basis.

Go.

From my own Cut n Paste (partial):


We have improved under RAC's regime...whether that's on RAC or Savage or both? Who knows for sure? But we have improved.

It is my opinion that RAC has taken this team as far as he can...that he topped out once we became "respectable".

Fair or unfair, I don't think his "way" will ever get us to the next level. He makes entirely too many gameday gaffes...his "we've got to get back to practice and try to get better" mantra will NOT get us to the next level.

It is a very rare head coach who can take an awful team from awful to perrenial playoff caliber. The mindset of the players and today's "environment" makes it very difficult. I don't think RAC has that rare quality that a Cowher or a Jimmy Johnson had/has. (Marvin Lewis has this exact same problem.)

Sure...some people make a knee jerk reaction to a loss...I know I did after opening day last year...

HOWEVER...

RAC has shown a pattern of ineptitude as a head coach. That pattern manifested itself - again - on opening day - again.

We are poised to go to the next level...and I don't think RAC can get us there...and that opinion has been developed over 3 full seasons...4 pre-seasons...4 opening day games...and numerous "What in the world is he thinking?" moments during that timeframe.

Could I be wrong? I hope I am! I just don't THINK I am.

Yet there is a pattern that suggests he is in over his head.

Mo had to go...Savage had to force it.

Savage went and got Chud...RAC "approved" it.

Tucker looks like a RAC clone...albeit after only 4 pre-season and yet another Opener. Is it Mo all over again?

Frye, Washington, Baxter, McGinest and stubbornness to change.

I think - or maybe want to believe to support my opinion - that Savage has built this team for Savage and not for RAC.

RAC's job was to bring some stability and respect to the team...mission accomplished.

The team is young...RAC'S shtick is old...there remain a few unpleasant changes/decisions to make.

Based on these points, I don't think RAC can take us to the next level. At the same time, he may one day be a more-successful Head Coach somewhere (again same as Marvin Lewis), but it won't be here. (See Belly-Puke as an example.)

Coaches don't get the leeway to re-create themselves. As with players at times, it takes a change of scenery to get the most out of someone.

Dave, yes - RAC should be judged on the play rather than the number of wins. There are circumstances surrounding every season. And possibly 7-9 under certain circumstances should be considered as a better coaching job than a 10-6 season under another set of circumstances. As fans we all should have the where with all to comprehend this and then Opine on the position. And yet I found it odd that you did quantify with a number to draw the line???

Mercer2b... "I love the way Chud runs the offense.... Tucker better start showing me something" Did you love the way Chud ran the O in our first game against the Steeler's in 07? And yet you "LOVE" the way he is as a coach. In lieu of that I would think that you would be a little more patient with Tucker. Also Savage made 2 big investments into the DL. Its a step in the right direction...but the D is not built up by Savage nowhere as well as the O was last season. Its not Apples to Apples.

Dawg Duty...its too early to look at RAC...but - " lets wait a couple of weeks and see where we are with regard to RAC."

Does that really make you more patient and sound in your reasoning? We have had 3 years of data base regarding RAC. Again things cannot be viewed in STATs. Stats are numbers one will use to back their opinion. But not a variable to MAKE an opinion. Its in understanding what is going on and forming an opinion by seeing.

On that premise I don't think anyone can deny that CONTINUITY is a desired quest for our team to have. Those who wish RAC gone I can only assume that they feel he doesn't possess the correct ingredients to sustain Continuity.

The fact that 2 games will determine the opinion you would have on RAC tells me that you really don't have an opinion foundation. And that the opinion you will form in two weeks time have to be from basic knee jerk reactions of emotion. ONE or THREE games into the 08 season...does that define anything?

1. Do you believe in Continuity?
2. Do you believe that RAC deserves the opportunity of continuity?
3. If yes, why?
4. If no, why?

These are important thoughts, opinions and variables that one should form some foundation on regarding this subject matter.

As mentioned - I think every dawg into their football have to answer YES to #1.

Its the rest that I'm sure all will differ at. And what I seek in discussion.

No Shep not a Poll. Discussion...PURE FOOTBALL discussion. Something rarely seen now a days. Man I wish 10-15 of the old timers would come to the board and discuss. Where the heck did those guys go? You, PitDawg an occasional Diam and Saint Dawg is about all that exists anymore? Not that the new blood can't debate. But sometimes the new blood like a football team need the Vets to show how its done.

JMHWish.

Just miss them days...see continuity is good any more things than one

Did you love the way Chud ran the O in our first game against the Steeler's in 07?

I certainly loved it. Receivers were open all day long. The quarterback failed to read and react to what the defense was giving him but the scheme worked.

Just like last week, passes were dropped, Anderson become to infactuated with finding Edwards but receivers were getting open. The scheme wasn't the issue. The execution was.

I cant say the same for the defense. The scheme doesn't challenge opposing offenses. When a blitz is coming, everyone knows exactly who is blitzing. It just appears to be a total lack of imagination in the design. it is more of the same you give give give and hope the offense makes a mistake.

I know Parcells won a Superbowl with that same philosophy but he also had LT and moved him around to create mismatches. All we have is Wimbley and u can bet your booty he is coming from the same location over and over and over and over.

This thread is going to explode after the PIT game with reactionary posters either wanting RAC fired immediately or believing he can lead us to the Super Bowl.

Personally, I like RAC - I think fans get too caught up in the bland phrases he spouts off to the media. He's not like that in real life, as anyone who's heard of 'the RAC Attack' knows. He does have passion, he just doesn't show it on the field.

That being said, if he can't beat Pittsburgh this year and we fail to make the playoffs, I do think he will be gone.

The decision to replace Mo and Davidson came from Phil and Lerner. Phil is the one that brought in Chud, I dont see how that is fiction.

If we come out and play and game manage like we did last week, I'm not sure what they'll be to debate.

Conversely if we come out and show our true talent and notch a W, the debate will be just as pointless.

Winning cures all ails and losing will get your butt kicked to the curb. As it should be. At this point in his career with the team he has and the time he's had, it's time to win. It's not at all how you play the game.

Mour,, it sure looked as if Savage stepped in to make the changes with Mo,, but you know what, its not been proven yet..

Like I said, it sure has that feel, but I've heard nothing to prove that RAC didn't do the deal by himself with Savages approval.

Now, if we can't prove that RAC didn't do this or make it happen, then it becomes counter productive to blame him of being lax in anyway..

I don't know if I made any sense there,, but simply put, if you can't prove that RAC didn't make those changes either on his own or with Savages approval, then you can't make a negative comment about RAC on the subject...

Is RAC intelligent? I don't know but he doesn't seem intelligent. Does anyone know?

Continuity is a big aspect that is extremely important.

I see the arguments against keeping RAC:
1. Poor game-time decisions with challenges and that FG call.
2. Inability to make a decision regarding coaching staff (Mo Carthon) and QBs (the infamous coin flip)
3. 3 straight opening week losses
4. Inability to beat the Steelers
5. Time management and disorganization on the offensive side, often indicated by several untimely timeouts when plays have not been called in time.
6. Failure to make the playoffs last season (okay, that's a stretch)

Then, there is just the "gut feel" that comes from comparisons with Cowher at the Steelers (and now Tomlin).

I don't understand the arguments about "smash mouth" football. When the situation has called for it, the defense has hunkered down to make the big stops. What I do know is that this team was one of the least penalized teams the past two seasons. The Browns have shown steady improvement - and it wasn't RAC throwing 4 INTs against the Bengals last year. I also look at the turnaround from that week 1 loss last year as a big challenge that RAC successfully navigated (if you recall, the national media was calling the team a joke after week 1 and the trade).

For me, I want to see how this season unfolds before considering if RAC needs to leave

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The only reason people are discussing if RAC should be canned is last week's clunker.

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It goes WAY deeper than that my friend.

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If the team plays uninspired football in 5 or 6 more games this season,

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Do you really need to see that much more of something we have watched for the last three seasons?


I havent completely given up on him but i have a bad feeling that after tonight I will have come to that point.

i know we are missing guys Saint but for the love of god this is the steelers.


Chis Palmer beat them with a team that had one tenth of the talent. There is a big difference between not being talented enough to overcome injuries and not being a good enough coach to get what you can out of the talent you have and game plan accordingly.

stay...

He goes bye bye if we don't beat the steelers at ALL this year and/or next year...

if he don't beat them this year...i don't think there is a "next" year

ok i was just reading, didnt plan on posting but i have to respon to this
"4. Inability to beat the Steelers"
i also hate that stat but give credit where credit is due,but the stollers have fielded a good team the last few years (damn i hate typing that) .... you have to have the talent to beat any given team ,NO matter who the coach is, and in years past we havent had that..
last year we made huge strides , this year i look for even more..but do we have the talent now ??
personally i think we are getting close, if not there ... if all get on the same page and show up to play hard-nosed football i think we can compete with any team out there......
maybe not win em all but compete and look like a team to seriously consider winning any game they play...
of course last week didnt show this,so this week we have to make a statement even if we lose that we will show up and give any team a run for their money...
as far as rac i think he has done ok with what he had to work with to this point ,now he has most of what he needs ,so he needs to make this team turn the corner and show they are contenders

It absolutely boggles my mind that this topic has been brought up after only 1 Week.... though after what I've seen from the over-racting emotional crowd, it doesn't surprise me in the least.

.. " over-racting emotional crowd, "

You can add me to the List !

Well after this horribly mismanaged game I'm sure the fire Romeo bandwagon will be in full force.

Why do you think there is a bandwagon to begin with?

I supported RAC for a while but I just dont know anymore. He has been horrendous in managing time. He makes stupid challenges.

imo He should go and he can take most of the LBs and DBs with him

j/c

Romeo's philosophy and game time management is starting to lose me very quick.

And his lack of ability to beat a team from Pitt.

If he's our coach next season's opener I'm gonna be pissed. (unless we make a complete turnaround)

I dont like changing in the middle of the season it would just had more confusion to this mess.

I'm starting to climb aboard the fire Romeo express.

Tonight's lack of clock management is unacceptable.

RAC can hit the street and take Edwards and Anderson with him.