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From the Plain Dealer, 9/14/08 ... I was interested in the answer where Grossi mentions Rutigliano's opinion that the Browns should switch to a base 4-3 defense. I have wondered if we have the players to play a 3-4 well, but I don't see how you make a switch like that in-season - especially when you don't have any true DE's. Anyhoo, here's the column:
Hey, Tony! Cleveland Plain Dealer beat writer Tony Grossi answers your Cleveland Browns questions
Sunday, September 14, 2008
Got a Browns question? Send it in. Submit your question to cleveland.com/heytony, and Plain Dealer Browns beat writer Tony Grossi will choose several to answer each Sunday here in the sports section. All of Tony's answers will be archived online.
Hey, Tony: With Jamal Lewis' hamstring trouble and really not much help behind him, do you think the Browns could try out Shaun Alexander for a roster spot? He has said he doesn't have to be the main back and could go for the veteran minimum. Even with bigger needs like in the secondary and with the linebackers, do you think we should sign him and take a bigger leap in free agency to help our semi-weak team? - William Green, Hubbard, Ohio
Hey, William: The Browns' front office is very aggressive in the off-season but very passive within the season. It seems to set its game plan in March and April and then is extremely hesitant to veer from it.
Hey, Tony: This is hard for me to say, but it's worth saying because I believe it's the truth. Kam Wimbley is a great guy, but I'm not sure his skill set and motor are of the NFL caliber. At least not in a 3-4 defense the Browns run. Are you in agreement sir? - Tim Parker, Columbus
Hey, Tim: Don't question Wimbley's motor. It's always running. The question is not whether Wimbley can play in the NFL. He can and he has. The question is whether he can be an elite pass rusher that can disrupt an offense. I think the jury is out on that one. And don't call me sir.
Hey, Tony: Is there any hope? I know it's only one game, but the defense didn't look any better than last year. Our LBs are weak. They always seem a step late or are running into the wrong hole. D'Qwell Jackson is a bust! - Mike, Northampton, Pa.
Hey, Mike: Former coach Sam Rutigliano has suggested switching back to a 4-3 base defense. It's hard to imagine it could do worse than what we've seen out of the 3-4.
Hey, Tony: Living out of town, your column continually provides good insight. Thank you for that. The question I have concerns the NFL rule regarding hands to the face. The Browns got penalized vs. the Cowboys on more than one occasion for what looked like insignificant contact. However, when a runner stiff-arms a defender, it is typically to the face and appears much more brutal, yet no call is made. The question I have is why the inconsistency in calls? - Gary Antonius, Oxford, Ohio
Hey, Gary: One of the points of emphasis this season regarding rules is that offensive players will be called for face-masking if their stiff arms make contact with the defender's mask and causes the head to snap.
- Tony
© 2008 cleveland.com
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It doesn't appear we actually have the right mix of talent to switch....
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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But do we have the right mix of talent to NOT switch? I think that if this front 7 doesn't "gel" by the end of this year then they should seriously look into cutting their losses and switching back. It can't get much worse than it is right now.
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Quote:
But do we have the right mix of talent to NOT switch?
On paper,, it doesn't look like it,,,,,
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Rodgers williams in the middle with Hall and Wimbley on the outside would be a decent front 4.
Leon Dra and DQ wouldn't be a horrible linebacking group.
Secondary wouldnt be much of a difference.
The real issue would be depth. We wont be making the change but interesting to talk about anyway.
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I have often had misgivings about a 34. For one thing, the supply of talent for the NFL is college football. There aren't many major programs in the NCAA that run a 34, therefore what you have to do is TRY to find someone that will do well in a 34 and thats difficult in an envirionment where the talent youre looking at has played a 43 since 5th grade.
Essentially, you set back the talent you bring on board a year or two while they learn the basics of a whole new scheme. That just seems counterproductive to me.
What do I know tho... "Defensive gurus" like RAC seem to think it's a better system.
SaintDawg™
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Quote:
What do I know tho... "Defensive gurus" like RAC seem to think it's a better system.
Just wondering,, outside of The Pats and Browns, who else uses the 3-4? I'm really not sure to be honest.
But here is another thought, I'm pretty sure that we lined up in what was more of a 4-3 quite a bit last week... So, which are we the higher percentage of the time... Again, just wondering..
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Quote:
Quote:
What do I know tho... "Defensive gurus" like RAC seem to think it's a better system.
Just wondering,, outside of The Pats and Browns, who else uses the 3-4? I'm really not sure to be honest.
But here is another thought, I'm pretty sure that we lined up in what was more of a 4-3 quite a bit last week... So, which are we the higher percentage of the time... Again, just wondering..
Steelers, Ravens, Cowboys, Chargers, Niners, Dolphins.
I think that's all of them.
Everyone says "we can't switch to the 4-3" and I don't understand why. Wimbley played DE in college...yeah he's an undersized end but he's not TOO small (see: Dwight Freeney). McGinest played end before Belichick implemented the 3-4.
Quite frankly, Rogers and Williams is a hell of a DT duo.
My main concern is the linebackers.
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Here is my 2 pesos:
1) I think many want to switch to the 3-4 because what happened last Sunday. If you do not have the players on the roster now that are any good, they're not going to magically get better in a 4-3.
2) Hall and Wimbley are too small to play ends in the 4-3.
3) Most people who play the 3-4 have pretty good defenses (BAL, PIT, SD, DAL, NE) and now Parcells is running it in Miami. It is a good defense.
4) To me we either have poor coaching, a poor GM, poor players, or just had a poor game. We will know more after each game, but I assume after 3 seasons we should've been a lot better than what we saw Sunday.
5) Switching to a 4-3 is not happening while RAC is here.
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Quote:
2) Hall and Wimbley are too small to play ends in the 4-3.
Hall and Wimbly were both DEs in college, I think both of them would flourish in a 4-3. A DE in a 4-3 get to cut loose and rush the pass,theirjob is to get up field and rush the passer or contain the corners on a run.
I think we can not go to a 4-3 because we do not have the LB's to do it. All the LBs we have our ILB's. The only one who we could even think about being a OLB would be DQJ.
KING
You may be in the drivers seat but God is holding the map. #GMSTRONG
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All great points. My extra peso:
The 3-4 as a scheme is good because, in theory, it uses the element of disguise in rushing 4 players up the field.
I say in theory because there is no element of disguise in our 3-4. Wimbley around the end happens about 100% of the time.
I hate our defensive scheme. In fact I loathe it.
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Quote:
Steelers, Ravens, Cowboys, Chargers, Niners, Dolphins.
I think that's all of them.
You forgot the Jets, which switched a year ago.
#gmstrong
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Quote:
Hall and Wimbly were both DEs in college, I think both of them would flourish in a 4-3. A DE in a 4-3 get to cut loose and rush the pass,theirjob is to get up field and rush the passer or contain the corners on a run.
I completely disagree. Wimbley and Hall are both way too undersized and weak to play end. They would have no chance against the run.
Switching to a 4-3 would be a horrible idea. Our ends and linebackers would need to be completely re-done. We are just starting to get some talent on defense. Don't mess it up.
I like the 3-4 better than the 4-3 anyway. You have so many more options. My problem is that we don't use any of these advantages. Our defense is incredibly bland.
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The Bengals also switched this off season. I wish the Browns scheme was like the Steelers. I love their defense.
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Quote:
The Bengals also switched this off season. I wish the Browns scheme was like the Steelers. I love their defense.
Same.
We just line up and play, we do nothing to confuse anyone unless we're playing an awful QB (like Kyle Boller...we would swarm every time we played him, yet against the likes of Carson Palmer it feels like we just line up and play, I don't understand it at all).
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Quote:
Quote:
Steelers, Ravens, Cowboys, Chargers, Niners, Dolphins.
I think that's all of them.
You forgot the Jets, which switched a year ago.
thought ravens run a 52 def. now
Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It's perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands. It hopes we've learned something from yesterday. -John Wayne
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It's easier to get personnel that fits the 4-3 so switching back AFTER THIS SEASON will not be as difficult as it may seem. The problem is what to do with our tweeners like Hall, Wimbley and Peek. There is nothing wrong with the 3-4 defense as long as the execution is effective. We must wait it out until after the season is over anyway,let's see how the defense performs.The defense did look better last night... Keep in mind that the offense has scored a grand total of 16 points so far. IMO we should switch to a double wing. 
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don't understand it at all
You don't....its because our scheme waaayyyyyyyy too complicated for us fans to understand. See we start out to try and suprise other teams by doing exotic blitzes and formations but then we find out they may be expecting it so we try to confuse them by playing base defense and packages that are so outrageously dumb, they wouldnt expect this at the NFL level.
Coulnt you see the suprise in Rothlisbergers eyes when we rushed 3 guys at him, he nearly threw a pick, but he had so much time he found Santoia Holmes.
But hey...we'll try harder next week.
See its a very complicated scheme, its been very effective at the pee-wee and popwarner level.
So don't try to understand it, you will only get headache!
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Hey, Gary: One of the points of emphasis this season regarding rules is that offensive players will be called for face-masking if their stiff arms make contact with the defender's mask and causes the head to snap.
 What a joke. On Holmes end around he did this right in front of the ref. Instead of a 15 yd. penalty, the Steelers got a 1st down. 
#gmstrong
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Quote:
Hey, Tony: With Jamal Lewis' hamstring trouble and really not much help behind him, do you think the Browns could try out Shaun Alexander for a roster spot? He has said he doesn't have to be the main back and could go for the veteran minimum. Even with bigger needs like in the secondary and with the linebackers, do you think we should sign him and take a bigger leap in free agency to help our semi-weak team? - William Green, Hubbard, Ohio
I think it's funny that William Green suggested Shaun Alexander rather than himself. 
And the next head coach is ......
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ive actually had my question answered by tony, i said Hey Tony, with the browns consistently selling out 72,000+, and a waiting list for psl's, why not build a bigger stadium, closer to 90,000? the answer was, potential tv blackouts, man i remeber that,  when the browns were on nbc
President - Fort Collins Browns Backers
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Quote:
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don't understand it at all
You don't....its because our scheme waaayyyyyyyy too complicated for us fans to understand. See we start out to try and suprise other teams by doing exotic blitzes and formations but then we find out they may be expecting it so we try to confuse them by playing base defense and packages that are so outrageously dumb, they wouldnt expect this at the NFL level.
Coulnt you see the suprise in Rothlisbergers eyes when we rushed 3 guys at him, he nearly threw a pick, but he had so much time he found Santoia Holmes.
But hey...we'll try harder next week.
See its a very complicated scheme, its been very effective at the pee-wee and popwarner level.
So don't try to understand it, you will only get headache!
Do your posts make you feel better about yourself because you certainly bring nothing to the conversation. These kind of posts belong on the other board. I doubt you could actually get the terminology of the Browns' scheme down, let alone the scheme itself. Why not trying to bring something to the conversation besides your juvenile whining about the team? It may boost your low self esteem, but it disrupts the adults that want to actually discuss football in pure football.
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Actuall, we do more often than you think. I don't think it's the case of the QB as much as the WRs we are facing. With the secondary being the weaker link, I think the philosophy has been to aid them as much as possible in coverage and hoping the improved DL will get some pressure on the QB. I'm not saying I agree with that, but that seems to be the philosophy.
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
don't understand it at all
You don't....its because our scheme waaayyyyyyyy too complicated for us fans to understand. See we start out to try and suprise other teams by doing exotic blitzes and formations but then we find out they may be expecting it so we try to confuse them by playing base defense and packages that are so outrageously dumb, they wouldnt expect this at the NFL level.
Coulnt you see the suprise in Rothlisbergers eyes when we rushed 3 guys at him, he nearly threw a pick, but he had so much time he found Santoia Holmes.
But hey...we'll try harder next week.
See its a very complicated scheme, its been very effective at the pee-wee and popwarner level.
So don't try to understand it, you will only get headache!
Do your posts make you feel better about yourself because you certainly bring nothing to the conversation. These kind of posts belong on the other board. I doubt you could actually get the terminology of the Browns' scheme down, let alone the scheme itself. Why not trying to bring something to the conversation besides your juvenile whining about the team? It may boost your low self esteem, but it disrupts the adults that want to actually discuss football in pure football.
I liked the humor in his post... SO WHEN DID YOU BECOME THE BOARD MONITOR AND GET THE RIGHT TO DECIDE WHO CAN SAY WHAT ON HERE.
Fact is your a RAC fan and you can't stand those of us who think he is the weak link in the team.
As for what he said in his post... I always read your post even though I think they are very biased and un-enlightening because YOU TOO have the right to express yourself HERE.
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On Topic:
The type of D is not the problem.
We are supposed to be running a 3-4.
We have had 3 years to get the right players for a 3-4.
Instead, we now run some hybrid mutation of a 3-4, which to this point has failed to impress anyone who faces it.
Hmmm... If we only had a coach that was a D specialist. Someone who took his D to a few Super Bowls.... Someone we could credit the compilation of the D roster, D scheme and overall D success of the last few years too... AND if this great coach had complete control of this team from a training and implementaion stand point THEN we would definately see a difference!
BUT WE GOT RAC INSTEAD!
There is a TON of talent on this team! We need COACHING ADJUSTMENTS. I'm not saying we should fire RAC, but we should hold him accountable and light a fire under his butt to get this fixed!
This team lacks fundamentals! After the rebuild we should be very sharp FUNDAMENTALLY. That's all we worked on for two years for christ sake!
RAC needs help with discipline (reducing penalties). RAC needs a REAL D coordinator with SOME EXPERIENCE. RAC needs to let the talent on this team play (HALL, Williams) regardless of veteran status.
The D Scheme needs to be very basic... PRESSURE - PRESSURE - PRESSURE - Punt Return. Stuff the Run, Contain the pass on third down and blitz the QB like crazy!
Wimbley can rush, Hall can rush, DQ can rush and RODGERS is a Beast! Let Williams and Smith tye up blockers and give these 4 the green light to do whatever it takes to put pressure on the QB. That's 6 men applying pressure on every down! This makes opposing teams use a TE or a back to block on every down. Rodgers REQUIRES two Blockers on most plays to keep him off the QB, so were now tying up 7 offensive players plus a QB. Can our remaining 5 defensive players contain or stop the remaining 3 offensive players from kicking our ass? ON PAPER, YES. In reality, who knows.
Whats broke on this defense is the fact that we only seem to rush 3-5 players per down. This allows the opposing O to have all of the skill players available to complete plays against us. This allows opposing QB's all the time they need to let plays develop or let those skill players break free.
So if you want to fix this D, rush 6 on every down... period.
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I'm a BROWNS fan, not an RAC fan. I just don't blame him for everything that is wrong with the team. I also don't blame him for things that aren't his fault or when he does something that almost any coach would do.
This board prides itself on intelligent debate in the Pure Football Forum. That's why people come here to post. You may enjoy the bashing, but it detracts from those that want to actually discuss the real issues and takes the focus away from those issues. Funny how you claim he has the right to post his nonsensical drivel, but think that no one has the right to call him on it.
Whatever, the simple truth is that there are far too many that want to blame the coach because, in the end, they think that if they can lay all the blame on one person, the problems can be fixed by getting rid of that one person. After all, it's worked so well in the past here in Cleveland......getting rid of Marty, Palmer, Couch, Holcomb, Davis.....want me to go on or is the light coming on?
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Could all those people be wrong??
Is it possible they have a point??
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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Yes, "all" these people could be wrong.....all 2 of you. Seriously, Peen, "all" these people have views like RAC is to totally to blame, that you should cut players drafted after two years when the PROFESSIONALS say it takes three years to evaluate a draft, don'e understand the basic fundamentals of coaching, and on and on and on. Just because there may be issues after TWO GAMES does not mean that those that lay all the blame on RAC are right beacause there are more than one sayingi it. They have no "point" when they call RAC an idiot, dolt, imbecile, and on and on and on. That makes their rants easy to dismiss as NO ONE that has been in the NFL as long as he has is any of those things when it comes to football. It's simply fans babbling in an irate tirade after two losses and the chicken little affect shining through.
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50 games where the Browns have improved to a winning record and playoff contender....yeah the guy should be fired, gutted, and hung.
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50 games where the Head Coach has proven that he cannot get the team ready to play, make adjustments, or manage gameday decisions.
See? A debate.
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