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was it to not sign a veteran cb in the off season that has starting experience? This year teams are converting 47.8% on third downs which is up over 10% from last years 36.7%. The run defense with Corey Williams and Shaun Rogers is very much improved and most teams are easily converting 3rd and medium to third and long situations because the inexperienced secondary and the LACK OF PRESSURE. I wasnt expecting a complete turn around from last year just improvement. Until we get a solid OLB on the other side of wimbley (not Peek, I mean someone through the draft) this defense will always suffer. You know who's going to rush the passer. Look at Dallas's 3-4. They have 2 great OLB's in Ellis and Ware and they both can rush the passer. The steelers have 3 just with the OLBs in Timmons, Woodley and Harrison. There is no one on this roster that can offer that kind of raw athletic abiltiy that we need, not even this Alex Hall kid. He played great against the run last sunday but he just doenst have the raw athletic abiltiy to be NFL starting tackles. Look for us to target some good pass rushers in the draft like George Selvie(USF) or Greg Hardy (Ole Miss).
Last edited by Referee1; 09/18/08 07:44 AM.
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How many starting corners were available with the picks we had available to trade and our cap space?
Answer that, and I'll try to answer your question.
If teams didn't have a cap to worry about, or if teams had 20 1st and second round picks to trade, then I'd say it was a big mistake. However, when you factor in what the Browns needed, and what they got, and what they had left to trade for what else they needed - I'd say we did the best job possible.
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I think the defense knows they need to improve....
I think by the end of the season those numbers will be better... even w/out the Veteran corner....
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I didnt mean starting caliber dbs like A. Samuel or Marcus Trufant. Older veteran guys that can help out on the sideline. Guys like Chad Scott and Ty Law who can still play enough to come in on dime situations and keep everyone in position.
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Just a question. Do you know how many of these 47.8% first downs are via run? Or underneath passes that a LB may cover? Just wondering if the problem is the DBs...or the whole D.
I know from a couple in Pitt, it was definitely DBs, but I was just wondering if they're really the problem. Besides, on those plays, Big Ben set up camp and roasted some marshmallows before throwing the ball. No CB can cover for a long time...( and yes, I know you mentioned pass rush)
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The play that comes to mind (of course) is that 30-yarder that Ben tossed from 6 yards deep in the endzone. We only rushed 3 on that play, and it burned us badly.
As the front 3 gel a bit more (Rogers is a beast from Hell) and Tucker learns how to design some diguised blitzes, I think we can show much better results with the personnel we have.
Of course, I'm always gonna look for upgrades at ANY position, but I don't think we've NEARLY seen the best of what we can do yet this year.
jmh .02
"too many notes, not enough music-"
#GMStong
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I think not getting another corner was a mistake..after seeing how horrible Eric Wright is this pre-season...personally i'd have signed Deltha O'neal. But hindsight is 20/20 and RAC said they were happy with what they had... So what do i know... 
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Deltha is absolutely horrible...
THE BENGALS DEFENSE CUT HIM!!!
I wish we would have tried to swing a deal for sheppard but im not sure what that would have cost us.
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Funny, he looked pretty good in a Pats uni against the great Brett Farve...trading for Lito would rob us of picks....IMO we have bigger needs than CB, remember Holly will be back next year, I always liked him, he and Mcdonald may grow into a good tandum.
I've seen nothing in Wright to make me think he'll ever be more than a fast, athletic, dime corner.
Ty Law is not the answer..we already have an old useless ex-pat on this team...its too late and we are now stuck. Best we can hope for is Travis Daniels gets better and can take over for Eric Wright.
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What exactly is everyone expecting from Eric Wright? To be an allstare db in his second year? The man hasnt even played a full season yet, remember last year he was injured
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Quote:
What exactly is everyone expecting from Eric Wright? To be an allstare db in his second year? The man hasnt even played a full season yet, remember last year he was injured
Not an all pro, but he seems to have regressed from last year. He can't cover much of anything. It seems he is scared all the time. I am tired of the 15 yard cushion that every receiver gets with Wright. Maybe it is designed that way, which falls on the coaches, but from what I can tell, Wright isn't as good now as he was last year.
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One big diff between Wright and McDonald...Mcdonald finds the ball in the air and makes a play on it. Wright stares at the wr...till the ball is in then makes a break...too late.
Its not something you can coach...instincts...Mcd has them and will be a great CB, Wright doesn't...I dont see him as much of anything.
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If only we had gone out and spent big money and high draft picks on DB's like teams such as the Eagles and Cowboys did ... then we wouldn't have these huge arial wars were all kinds of passing yards are racked up and the final score ends up something rediculous like 41-37.
Oh wait a minute ...
I've actually been satisfied with the DBs so far. It's not like QBs have been taking a quick 3 step drop and hitting wide-open receivers. Most of the passing against us has been because the QB gets a good 7 seconds to window-shop what receivers he wants to throw to.
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Quote:
If only we had gone out and spent big money and high draft picks on DB's like teams such as the Eagles and Cowboys did ... then we wouldn't have these huge arial wars were all kinds of passing yards are racked up and the final score ends up something rediculous like 41-37.
Oh wait a minute ...
I've actually been satisfied with the DBs so far. It's not like QBs have been taking a quick 3 step drop and hitting wide-open receivers. Most of the passing against us has been because the QB gets a good 7 seconds to window-shop what receivers he wants to throw to.
Exactly, if our rush defense was any better to put some pressure on the QB, right now we would be talking about the offense and why we didn't sign a Running back or something. If we can get pressure on the QB i'd bet our secondary looks like gold.
Notre Dame Hater since 1989 ![[Linked Image from img170.imageshack.us]](http://img170.imageshack.us/img170/2076/beware15trpc3.gif)
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Quote:
What exactly is everyone expecting from Eric Wright? To be an allstare db in his second year? The man hasnt even played a full season yet, remember last year he was injured
LOL I agree. Sometimes I think some fans expect these kids to come out of the womb and be all pros 
Maybe they want instant gratification like they get on playstation or something.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Quote:
Quote:
What exactly is everyone expecting from Eric Wright? To be an allstare db in his second year? The man hasnt even played a full season yet, remember last year he was injured
LOL I agree. Sometimes I think some fans expect these kids to come out of the womb and be all pros
Maybe they want instant gratification like they get on playstation or something.
Madden has been the ruination of football talk. 
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Actually even with injuries...Holly, one of our Safeties, I have been satisfied with the play of our DBs. Nothing stellar pro-bowl like but nothing close to our problem with the team.
We most definitely have our backs to the wall with our depth, Holly hurt big time.
Bodden is not as good as many think. ( he ain't starting with the Lions)
Adams is our Nickel back who hasn't seen that duty...instead we got to dig deeper and use Cousins.
Mistake to not sign a depth guy??? maybe we got to see what Daniels can bring to the table.
Mistake to not sign a high profile expensive CB. Law? We were talking with him...obviously out of our price range.
The rest something were wrong with them to be let go by their teams. A young kid that Savage liked wasn't there thats when we brought in Holly to begin with. Somebody like him wasn't available this year. Daniels the closest thing.
The day I see Daniels in as our Nickel back - I'll breath a little easier.
JMHO
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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I agree EO....I don't see a big problem in that area....at least one that would throw it to the top of the list.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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The team had a budget..the objective to was to bolster the one unit that has been as long as the Oline was..
Dline..and Phil addressed it..
He gave up a injury prone Bodden to get our NT..
I applaud the move.
But he knew it was a risk..
The money was spent and any CB they were looking at cost too much.
As I say ..look for the upgrade via draft/FA next season..
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Quote:
The play that comes to mind (of course) is that 30-yarder that Ben tossed from 6 yards deep in the endzone. We only rushed 3 on that play, and it burned us badly.
As the front 3 gel a bit more (Rogers is a beast from Hell) and Tucker learns how to design some diguised blitzes, I think we can show much better results with the personnel we have.
Of course, I'm always gonna look for upgrades at ANY position, but I don't think we've NEARLY seen the best of what we can do yet this year.
jmh .02
Glad you brought that play up, Clem.
I didn't want to dive into specifics (yet) in the 0-2 thread, but this is one of the plays I was alluding to when I said their inexperience really showed.
Yes, you're right, we only rushed three, with the obvious intent being that we drop so many people into zones that 'Berger would have to just dump it off short of the first down. So what happened? (I'd replayed that perticular play in slo-mo before I erased it, but I didn't get to see all the field, so I'm throwing out a disclaimer indicating that if someone else was in front of him, this thought is null and void.) Wright got caught flat-footed when dropping back into his zone. Unless you have someone in front of you, you're job is to continue to drop back to cover that area that the receiver is working towards. Wright knows that he has deep safety help, so it's his job to get deep enough to stop an out or comeback behind him. If anyone still has the tape, watch Eric as he drops.....he suddenly stops dropping while waiting for 'Berger to throw. That's the kind of thing that he didn't have to deal with in college, and it's the thing that he'll either learn from and succeed, or not learn from and fail. However, far more often than not, a good corner will get it. It's a very small thing, yet a very BIG thing at the same time. Simple inexperience, nothing more, nothing less.
I suppose that this is the right thread to also note the other inexperience problem that hurt us bigtime, which was the catch Holmes (Holmes?) had down the left sideline where the ball went right through McDonalds hands. With more reps in the league as a starter, he would knock that ball down. With even more reps, that's an INT.
Inexperience.
Now to the specific question.......
Having Holley go down hurt, and we shouldn't think it doesn't just because he isn't a big-name player. If you really think about it, would Bodden have made the difference in either of the first two games? Nah, not at all, and we couldn't have signed someone of his caliber, even if someone of his caliber could have been had (which just wasn't possible because there wasn't anyone out there.) Now, Lefty posed this thought:
Quote:
I didnt mean starting caliber dbs like A. Samuel or Marcus Trufant. Older veteran guys that can help out on the sideline. Guys like Chad Scott and Ty Law who can still play enough to come in on dime situations and keep everyone in position.
You mean someone like....oh....Terry Cousin? 
It comes back to what we could afford to do combined with what makes sense. You build teams from nearest to the ball to the furthest. Securing the front 3 of the 3-4 was more important than securing the CB position in this defense. Be able to stop the run first. That's still a golden rule. That's where we had to focus our funds first, so that's what we did. We can't anticipate losing someone like Holly for the year, and while there are guys out there like Law, they really are just band-aids that wouldn't make any more of a difference than someone like Terry Cousin. (Cousin, by the way, was a top-notch player in the league for many years who knows just as much as Law and Scott).
So how big of a mistake was it not to signa veteran CB? My opinion is that we didn't make a mistake at all. Cousin is that veteran DB, and loading up with more guys like him to heavy veteran contracts wouldn't yield a proper return in relation to how badly it would have handcuffed our salary cap.
It comes back to how many problems we can fix in any one offseason. We needed to fix the front 3 first, so we did. We attempted to fix a gaping hole at WR. With Holly in the plan, we didn't look that bad at corner, even if we didn't look that great. We knew we'd go in with growing pains, but the plan didn't include McDonald being absolutely forced to start.
IMHO we just have to accept the fact that we still have holes which can't be fixed all at the same time. Loading up with aging, slowing, expensive veteran CB's isn't the difference between having a good defense or a bad one.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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You also have to believe that poor CB play is the cause of our defensive problems in the Cowboy game (I thought the D played pretty well in the 2nd game). I would put more of the blame squarely on the shoulders of the total lack of pass rush, and the poor play of our LBs in general. We were better in game 2 at getting to the QB, and it was obvious how much "better" our CBs looked. If we could ever get a decent pass rush I don't think the young CBs will be a back breaker at all. Will they struggle at times do to the inexperience you mentioned?? Sure, but they won't be the difference in us succeeding on D or not.........secondary seldom is in my opinion. The ability of the front 7 to do there job at both applying pressure to the QB and stopping the run will be the deciding factor of whether our D has improved or not.
I am shocked with all of the complaining about the CBs so far, and the little attention the play of the LBs received after the Cowboys game. Now that is an area where I am all but sure that NEW talent is needed. Could we be better back there? Of course, but it isn't even the weakest unit on the D imo, and isn't nearly as important as the unit that is imo. The 34 demands quality LBs, and I am just not sure if we have any.
Good hearing from ya' bro.
Against logic,the most effective armor is willful ignorance.
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First,
Where did this "new" Overtoad come from?? You must have gotten married or got a woman or mail-order bride or abducted by aliens or something! I mean all this logical football analysis is scary!!
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Big Will, Quote:
I am shocked with all of the complaining about the CBs so far, and the little attention the play of the LBs received after the Cowboys game. Now that is an area where I am all but sure that NEW talent is needed. Could we be better back there? Of course, but it isn't even the weakest unit on the D imo, and isn't nearly as important as the unit that is imo. The 34 demands quality LBs, and I am just not sure if we have any.
This has been the problem with the entire 3-4 scheme since we implemented it. We do not have 3-4 inside LBs. We are trying to convert a hands-down DE to a OLB and the other side is manned by father-time and injury prone OLBs. Until Savage gets some real LBs, we will always have problems in our secondary because we will not get enough pass rush. You can only give the QB/WRs so much time. The browns need to go back to a hybrid 4-3 where wimbly and the other OLB play games on who is in coverage and who goes back in coverage!
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I just don't think you'll ever see us switch back to a 43 as long as RAC and Savage are at the helm. I still have some hope for Kam, because he has actually become quite better in both pass coverage and against the run. Besides in a 34, your OLBs are usually those hybrid type of DE in college that just aren't big enough to play DE in the NFL. So if we did decide to replace him, we would be getting the same type of player, and the learning curve for them would start over as well. Basically, these are the type of guys who historically become 34 OLBs. However, we still need to replace Willie next year, and hopefully that will be done with a 1st day pick. As you said though, the real concern for me is the ILB spots. DQ and AD just aren't big enough or instinctive enough to be ILBs in a 34. I think DQ could probably be a fine 43 Mike, but he doesn't seem like he's a 34 ILB imo.
Basically bro, we are needing at least 2 new LBs next year, and that's hoping/assuming the light comes on for DQ. Savage needs to buckle down and get some talent on that unit. What scares me, is that he's invested fairly heavily there, but the investment just hasn't been up to snuff thus far.
Against logic,the most effective armor is willful ignorance.
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Didn't everyone kind of know that when we traded Bodden we were really, really thin in the secondary? We figured that would be the big weakness on D and so far, I'd say that's pretty accurate. I think signing a savvy vet to go along with the youth we've already got would have been a smart move.
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the offense has scored 16 points in two games and you are worried about CB's ???
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Quote:
the offense has scored 16 points in two games and you are worried about CB's ???
I am.
That is one of our greatest areas of weakness.
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BigWill, Quote:
Basically bro, we are needing at least 2 new LBs next year, and that's hoping/assuming the light comes on for DQ. Savage needs to buckle down and get some talent on that unit. What scares me, is that he's invested fairly heavily there, but the investment just hasn't been up to snuff thus far.
This is the point that gets me. I know that they are not switching back but they do not have the ILB to play this defense. So in the next draft or free agent season we have to pick up 2 competent ILBs and possibly a outside LB... just great!
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Backers are the most difficult player to fill in a 3-4, and with many teams switching to that style in recent years, they are even harder to find......but they are out there.
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I am shocked with all of the complaining about the CBs so far, and the little attention the play of the LBs received after the Cowboys game C'on..as one who leads the Andra is not a force in the middle brigade how can you say that?  I said we needed a upgrade..and we do..these guys are backups..but Phil has not had a shot at a stud ..
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To me I think over the last two games our secondary play has not been bad...Dont get me wrong nobody is gonna think Minnifield & Dixon are covering recievers, but for the most part, having two young guys on the corner, they've played pretty well.
dallas game we were over matched in all areas of play...
Pittsburgh, corners played very well, If our offence could score we wouldnt be 0-2.
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Quote:
Dont get me wrong nobody is gonna think Minnifield & Dixon are covering recievers,
Not according to those offseason fluff pieces ... ... man, I hate those.
I think we could have closed this thread down after OverToad's post. I don't think any further explanation is needed. That's probably as close to 100% accurate as those of us not in the know will get.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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The corners aren't that bad..they're inexperienced..
What we lack is a solid # 3corner to match up slot recievers..
But WHATS HURTING is the play of the LB's..while it's improved from last year..it still isn't where it needs to be.
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J/C...
We just picked up Beau Bell... He's suppose to be a force in the middle. I say we draft about 3 CB's next year though. Like seriously... I envy the depth that some teams have at corner, like the Cowboys.
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Quote:
J/C...
We just picked up Beau Bell... He's suppose to be a force in the middle. I say we draft about 3 CB's next year though. Like seriously... I envy the depth that some teams have at corner, like the Cowboys.
Well, hopefully Bell is as advertised and can be an above average starter for us. The feeling I'm starting to get is that may be a few years away, if at all.
Probably the best trait I like about Savage is that he is action-oriented when he sees a problem that needs to be addressed. He will address it. I expect some type of stud backer to be in this lineup next year ... either draft, FA, or trade.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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Quote:
Quote:
the offense has scored 16 points in two games and you are worried about CB's ???
I am.
That is one of our greatest areas of weakness.
Adams is the leading tackler on the squad and Wright isn't far behind. A case could be made they are the strongest unit on the team at this point. Just throwing that out there for consideration....
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If your secondary is leading your team in tackles then you have a problem with your front 7..........as a rule of thumb anyway. Our DL play has improved, and we have guys who are demanding double teams up there now, but up to this point our LBs are still over pursuing, and making bad reads. They are the weakest unit on the team imo.
Against logic,the most effective armor is willful ignorance.
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This is the point that gets me. I know that they are not switching back but they do not have the ILB to play this defense. So in the next draft or free agent season we have to pick up 2 competent ILBs and possibly a outside LB... just great!
That's what happens when you jettison 3/4ths of your starting defense. It takes time to fill that many holes, and even with a crack scouting team, every draft is a crapshoot until they prove themselves.
College film footage, "Pro Days" and a combine just aren't enough to always tell.
tick...tock....tick...tock...
"too many notes, not enough music-"
#GMStong
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Probably the best trait I like about Savage is that he is action-oriented when he sees a problem that needs to be addressed. He will address it. I expect some type of stud backer to be in this lineup next year ... either draft, FA, or trade.
...or all three, for that matter. Dude ain't never been shy during the offseasn, has he? The Williams/Rogers scenario comes to mind first. That was some aggressive action. Did you read the late-summer fluff piece about Savage's behind-the-scenes movements in acquiring Rogers? I think the title was something like, "A Day In the Life of a GM" or something like that. Interesting read.
I have no doubts that he'll give the necessary attention to what ails us over the spring/summer of next year... and he won't be a shrinking violet about it, etither.
"too many notes, not enough music-"
#GMStong
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 39,678
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 39,678 |
I agree.
He as demonstrated in his past deeds that he attacks problems rather than ignore them in the hope they just go away.
He may not always get it right, but who does??
And, getting it right is most times dictated by a set of circumstances he can't control, leaving him to settle for option B,C,or D.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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