DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum IF we switched to a 4-3...personnel? Who stays, who goes?

This is one of those "thoughts in the shower" thoughts so it's not totally complete, but bear with me. If I had a brainfart and there's an existing thread this could go in, please merge refs.

I like the 3-4 and am not automatically thinking "coach change" but the issue always exists, so, I might as well throw it out there for discussion.

Many of us have stated that if we switched to the 4-3 next season we'd be royally screwed because we don't have the personnel for it. I somewhat disagree. The reason the transition to the 3-4 has taken so long is because we essentially had garbage players everywhere and are still (*cough* Andra Davis *cough*) trying to weed them out.

Here's how I look at it...

Up front, Shaun Rogers and Corey Williams were both either dominant or above average DT's in a 4-3. That right there is a hell of an interior DL. On top of that you can add in Robaire Smith and Shaun Smith to that rotation (even could use one as tradebait).

Are Alex Hall and Kamerion Wimbley too small to play DE? Perhaps, but that's what gaining weight is for. They played DE in college, so it's not a foreign position to them. Both are basically playing DE when they rush anyway, maybe some added weight would help with bullrushing ability.

As for the linebackers, this is our problem area for sure if we made the switch. We would most certainly need to sign a linebacker in FA or draft one high. Andra Davis is out the door after this year, but D'Qwell Jackson's biggest probably has been his lack of size pushing him back. Well, having two stud DT's in front of him would mean he'd be freed up to run to the ballcarrier. I wholeheartedly disagree that he's a Will linebacker, he's WAY too slow.

Leon Williams, on the other hand, MIGHT be a candidate for Will linebacker due to his speed and ability to cover, but I'm not sure how his skills (or lack of them for that matter) translate to a 4-3.

As for the Sam backer? That's where FA and/or the draft comes in. I have no one in mind at this point but I'm just stating that's probably what would happen.

The secondary is virtually the same between the 4-3 and 3-4, so whatever improvements/changes are made would happen regardless of what scheme we run.

Thoughts?

Jackson would be pretty good as a MLB in a 4-3. Think Johnathan Vilma or Demeco Ryans. If the big boys keep the guards off him he would fly around the field. He has good instincts and he is the best tackler on the linebacking crew. We would need two more linebacker and depending what scheme you run maybe a whole new backfield. Not to mention a defensive end strong enough and fast enough to line up over the tightend and right tackle to stuff runs to that side and rush the passer when needed. Guys like that aren't exactly a dime a dozen. (Julius Peppers/Mario Williams/Courtney Brown when he was healthy)

We would need to destroy and rebuild or DE's... DT's would be fine w/ what we already have.

We would be crazy insane strong at DT.

We would be crazy insane weak at DE.

I don't think you would see a bigger difference from what we've already seen this season.

Gone: McGinest: retired anyway
Hall : tweener
Wimbley: tweener
Peek: tweener

RAC: his idea to begin with

Rogers and Williams would be almost as much of an impact on the passing game due their penetration ability as the Williams boys impact the run in Minn. It could be that good...

With Shaun Smith rotating in there that could be a dangerous inside. Wimbley and Willie would put their hand in the dirt as the ends and as for depth at DE and just 43 personnel at backer we would be S.O.L. If Robaire ruptured his achilies I think its safe to say he will forever now be a role player IF* he recovers for it. He could be a short yardage option and rotational player at DE.

Jackson/Williams/Davis all MLB that would work in a 43 As for OLB The browns would have nothing.

Leonard, Rubin, one of the MLB's, see ya later. Not the write personnel. Antwan Peak could play in it...But we will have to wait and see how his Achilles injury works out....

But lets wait till Romeo gets fired to worry about the switching. It's not going to happen this season so we will wait and see.

Boy, if the browns season continues this way...The silver lining would be to get
Rey Maualuga and park him right into the 43

Kiwanuka switched from DE to an OLB in a 4-3 with the Giants and is playing very well. It might have to do with thier pressure scheme though but Wimbley could stand up if need be.

In my opinion the starters would be...

DE - Wimbley
DT - Rogers
DT - S Smith
DE - Corey Williams

OLB - New
MLB - Jackson or Williams
OLB - New

IMO - We are no closer to having a good 3-4 system than a 4-3...in fact we may be much closer to a 4-3 than 3-4.

Right now, today, it sure looks like we need 4 linebackers....FOUR...if we went over to a 4-3 we could certainly move Kam and Hall to DE...but I don't think they could be 1st and second down DE's. However..since we already run a 3-4 hybrid where one LB has his hand down anyway...why not go get a true DE...say maybe Julius Peppers...he's been up and down in Charlotte...but he's much like Rodgers...when he wants to play watch out. We are way beyond set at DT with the Smith's, Williams, and the Beast(thats how i'm referring to Shaun Rodgers from now on).

I think Leon Williams would shine as the weak side linebacker, he has everything, size, speed....just a matter of gettin him PT.....Now don't laugh, but I think DQ might look alittle better in 4-3 at MLB, his size wouldnt show up as such a problem when he no longer be asked to consistently take on blocks.

Realistically I think that we could move to more of a 4-3 than 3-4 but have a true DE as one of our supposed linebackers... Then we'd need another linebacker...I know now isn't the best time to bring his name up considering sat. night but I want Ray Maualuga...bad....

Anyway if we could get another corner and a real FS, move Pool to SS where his nat. position is..our defense wouldnt be so far off maybe...

If we switch fully over to a 4-3 then we need 2 DE's and one LB's...still better than 4 linebackers and this tard scheme we run now.

IMO we already run a 4 - 3 most of the game. We just line Wimbley up on the right side and he rushes.

One of those thoughts in the showers?
Either U let the water flow through your ears to your brain or U need to take baths instead

If the Browns went to a 43, THEY'D STILL need to replace their LB's..
And they'd need to get some 43 DE's..speed rushers..got that?
It's that easy to figure out..you can't pump that much weight on Wimbley or Hall..
I like the 34 if you have attacking stud LB's..

I agree attack...we would have a bunch of changing to do.

The 3-4 isn't the problem....like you, I like it better than a 4-3.

The problem we have is either the guys we have playing it or the guys we have running it.

I am not wild about Romeo's version of this D..too conservative, but i have to admit some of that may be due to the backing

I don't think the line we have is bad....in my estimation, it is the backers.

All of them lack at something...we don't have 1 backer who I would call solid in all phases of the game....some are solid at one thing and weak or another, or just fairly weak at everything.

"Jackson would be pretty good as a MLB in a 4-3."

Actually he would be the Will LB.

Leon I could see as the MLB and Bell as the SAM.

But its rediculous to start this thread with serious thought as a sign to come.

If we can't coach them or have the talent to play a 3-4 or discipline for that matter...it ain't going to change utilizing a 4-3. The problem if any that we have is not the scheme.

Actually I see about 25% of our plays right now being a 4-3 Defense. Its not like we utilize the 3-4 and only the 3-4. We do a lot of changing up.

We are getting better. I see improvement. Depth and health is very important.

Pressure is a concern...or lack of. Right now that is my worry and we are in the 4-3 almost as much as 3-4 in passing downs right now. So I don't see the scheme being the answer.

JMHO

You are right....it's almost as if we play a 4-3....Wimbly has his hand on the ground a lot.....there is no surprise when he rushes the qb

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there is no surprise when he rushes the qb

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Attempts too....


One thing i dont understand in why we dont spread out our DL more and until the DE's are over the OT's...move out the OLB...Shaun can handle the inside, let Wimbley and Hall truly play to their strengths on the outside...

maybe stunt every once in awhile...or line up Hall and Wimbley on the same side...something different.

Maybe just I'm not paying enough attention, but I only see the four man line in nickel and dime formations? Most 3-4's do that anyways...oh well.

yes...I was incorrect to state 4-3 on passing downs...I should clarify that with simply a 4 man DL...but in most occasions we will have 2 LB and 5 DBs.

If they bring the spread in we might have something different. But I incorrectly stated the term 4-3 and should have simply said 4 Man DL.

JMHMistake

Just a point to throw in here since I'm been pretty quiet for..well...months.

It may just be an issue that our stud D-Line acquisitions still have not adapted to playing a 3-4. Both Rogers and Williams were 4-3 DTs before...they have altered responsibilities in our 3-4. We got some horses but these are players that are still new to the system.

We also should perhaps face a sad reality that these guys might not play as well in a 3-4. I hope thats not the case but it is unfortunately a possibility.

That being said, all in all, the defence looked a mile better against Pitt than they did against Dallas. Our offence, on the other hand, looks brutal. DA, Braylon, McKinney and feel free to add to that list....

If the offense looks sluggish again against Baltiwhore, I really wouldn;t be surprised to see BQ take the helm. I'm not saying its right or wrong...just that I could see it happening.

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ROLB - D'Qwell Jackson (the position most 4-3 teams where scouting him for)

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I've been singing that tune for years and I think he'd be valuable in a trade to a team running the Tampa 2.

I know he's not an ILB in a 3-4 and have known that now for about 2 1/2 years.

It may just be an issue that our stud D-Line acquisitions still have not adapted to playing a 3-4.
U are right...they have to play together and in that system for a while to feel comfortable and know their assignments..
Give them several game to play together..well thats interupted now that Robaire is out.

Understood!

IMO this is a really bad idea. We ran the 4-3 with Butch and we all know how well that worked out. We need to stick to our guns and get the players and coaches we need to make the 3-4 work. Any system will work if you have the right people and players perform better in a system they are comfortable with. I don't want to start over. We're moving in the right direction please don't throw the baby out with the bath water.

I'm onboard with that mo.

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IMO this is a really bad idea. We ran the 4-3 with Butch and we all know how well that worked out.

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Umm....we've tried the 3-4 defense with Romeo...how has that worked out? Who had the higher ranked defenses...Romeo or Butch...that very fact should raise some eyebrows...Botch's defenses did better.

Am I for starting over no...but what we've been doing hasnt worked, and continues to fail at stopping the run nd getting pressure...our so called "3-4" is more 4-3 than 3-4 as is now, its so vanilla it sick.

I have no suggestions on what to do, but what we have no isn't cutting it, I guess it really depends on whether or not Romeo is head coach is 2009.

I guess at the end of the day, what are we really losing if we "start over" on defense...not like we can get much worse, we have almost no talent outside of Rodgers and Pool.

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not like we can get much worse, we have almost no talent outside of Rodgers and Pool.

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What about Corey Williams, Eric Wright, Brandon McDonald, Sean Jones, and Kamerion Wimbley? Pool is awful as a FS and we've only seen him at SS once. Yet your trying to say he is one of the two best players on our defense with Rogers.

We are a few good linebackers away from a good defense; now isn't the time to start over.

I'm really starting to pull for a 4-3 defense...

4 years strong and we have not seen any improvement.

j/c

The first to go? RAC.

(Sorry if that has already been pointed out.)

I still favor the 34,..but Phil has to get stud LB's to run it..thats the key...
U need intimidating smart/instinctive LB's to play a sound 34.
We've got the NT and the SS ..we need some aggressive LB's to make a difference.