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A winning formula Steve King, Staff Writer 10.04.2008 See the Browns run. See the Browns stop the run. See the Browns win. An ability to run the ball and defend against it has long been a formula for success at all levels of football, including the NFL, and the Browns used it to a great degree last Sunday to defeat the Cincinnati Bengals 20-12 at Paul Brown Stadium. The Browns, who had rushed just 58 times for 217 yards all year heading into last Sunday,had 40 carries for 134 yards against the Bengals. The previous high for number of rushes was 25 against the Pittsburgh Steelers in Week 2. Jamal Lewis had that many by himself, getting 79 yards, his top effort of the year. Even Jerome Harrison, who had just one carry all year, ran four times for 20 yards. And Jason Wright, who had two rushes for 16 yards, carried five times for 18 yards. "We told the guys we were going to run the ball on the first two plays of the game and then see where we were at," Browns head coach Romeo Crennel. Where the Browns were at was the Cincinnati 28, where they had a first down. Starting at the Cleveland 33, Lewis carried for six yards on the first play. He rambled for 18 on the next one, and the Browns got 15 more yards when Cincinnati cornerback David Jones was penalized for a personal foul.
Lewis got eight and six yards, respectively, on the next two plays to take it to the 14 before he got a breather and gave way to Wright, who rushed for nine yards to give the Browns a second-and-1 at the 5.The Cincinnati defense dug in its heels at that point, stuffing Lewis for a combined minus-2 yards on the next two plays to force the Browns to settle for a 25-yard Phil Dawson field goal. But the die had been cast. Stat of the week - the Browns are 9-1 when Lewis carries the ball 20 or more times."When we were able to run the ball early, that set the tone for the game," Browns quarterback Derek Anderson said. On the flip side, the Browns did not look like the 25th-ranked rushing defense in the league. Entering the game, the team was giving up an average of 145 yards per game. They held the Bengals to just 69 yards in 16 carries. Most of that came when quarterback Ryan Fitzpatrick, starting in place of the injured Carson Palmer, got flushed out of the pocket and scrambled four times for 41 yards. "We never let them establish the run, and that was key," Crennel said. All these statistics tell an obvious story: If the Browns run the ball and can stop the run, they give themselves the best chance to win. http://www.clevelandbrowns.com/article.php?id=8932There u have it... We need Tucker back at RG NOW...We get him in there and the line solidifies... Chudzinski needs to see this and UTILIZE it...9-1 when Lewis carries 20+ times... RUN THE DAMN BALL Chud... Especially when we have a QB who's struggling mightily...This will also give us an IDENTITY...And will help Quinn immensely if and when the change is made...These guys up front are better than they've shown...Get Tucker back and RUN THE DAMN BALL... NO...I'm not Soup...lol...
Go Browns!!!
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Quote:
Stat of the week - the Browns are 9-1 when Lewis carries the ball 20 or more times.
I posted that a week ago.... 
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Formula of success run the ball 20+ times with Lewis. Look thats fine and dandy...btw re-read that account of the game. We stuck with the run and didn't pass ONE BIT on that drive. The result? 3 points. Teams don't win in the NFL by getting FGs from Goal to go situations!
Formula of success - how bout playing against the 28th Run D in the NFL.
And that 9-1 record with Jamal rushing 20+ times. Against who? Good defense or bad? Formula of success? Play against Bad Defenses.
Not pooh, poohing a running game. I'm all for it. But this is not a revelation.
Here is the fact. We have to come up with an offensive FORMULA that is successful against GOOD DEFENSES!
For it is GOOD DEFENSES that would be seen during the Post Season.
For it is GOOD DEFENSES that we are seeing very often this season.
We have to become successful at the pass. We have to have way better efficiency against the pass. If not we will be seeing a lot of 3 points which will get us nowhere unless we got a TOP 3 Defense in this league which we are nowhere close to that!
I'm not saying to pass more. I'm saying we need success in our balance. I'm saying its more important for us to become stellar in the passing game. I'm saying that 144 TDs from offenses have been made through the air. 117 on the ground.
I'm saying some beat writers can pull this stat out of their butt and try to Smoke n Mirror us that all is ok with the offense...after all we got the Formula.
No...this team is going nowhere until the Air game is FIXED!
JMHO
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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In my opinion, Chud has not been calling enough play action plays this year. Last year, the pass opened up the run. Against Cincy, the Browns ran the ball successfully but didnt capitalize on the running game to open up the passing game with the playaction.
When the Browns offense was struggling in preseason, I thought it was because the Browns didnt want to give up their playcalling to oppsosing teams in the regular season. After DVRing the games and watching them again, I noticed that they werent sending players in motion, which created mismatches and was a huge part of their offensive success last year, and they werent calling any playaction plays. In the last preseason game, they finally put players in motion in Bradys start, and he finally had some decent drives. But as of now, they still are not calling alot of playaction plays. Our offensive line is supposed to be good enough to allow enough time for a playaction play. I dont feel the offensive gamecalling is catching the defense off balance at all. Playaction will help get the LBs off Winslow and help get the safeties off the WRs.
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No...this team is going nowhere until the Air game is FIXED!
I agree.
If you can't get big chunks in the air, running the ball keeps you close in a low scoring(you hope) affair.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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Horsehockey on big chunks.....don't give me balls flying downfield, give me moving the chains every 3 downs.
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We've gotta pass the ball well in order to win in this league.
It's nice to be able to run...it's important to be able to run...but it's essential to be able to pass well.
![[Linked Image from members.cox.net]](http://members.cox.net/flyinc5/smallsigpics/frcburnout.gif) AL 29 76 14 R_K
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I'm good with moving the chains as well. But if you can get some big chunks on occasion you can free up the running game by making the defense respect that and not bring the safety up. At the end of the day I don't care how they game plan it. Just so there is successful execution. I'm fine with 4 yards everytime we run a play. I'd also like to see the kind of air offense we showed last season ALONG WITH successful short throws. Lack of successful short passes is still killing us. Horsehocky indeed. 
#gmstrong
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Quote:
Stat of the week - the Browns are 9-1 when Lewis carries the ball 20 or more times.
IMHO, this is THE most misunderstood statistic that exists.
We can't simply make a choice to turn the switch on or off and run Lewis for 20+ carries a game. If Lewis is having success, meaning the line is able to open holes and the offensive play-calling is doing a good job at keeping the defense guessing, then sure, we can run him 20 times and win.
Then there's the question of whether or not we're actually in the game. If we're down by 20, running Lewis does us no good. As a result, he won't get 20 carries, so we can't add a loss to that perticular stat line.
Against a downtrodden team like the Bengals who are marching out Ryan freakin' Fitzpatrick, it's EASY to stick with the run and win. Against defenses like the Rats and the Steelers, it's very difficult, especially when we're not marching out our "A" offensive line.
Then there's the passing game. Our running game succeeded last year in no-small part because we had the very real threat of a passing attack that could do damage. Right now, IMHO, the single-most important factor in getting our running game going is to have a successful passing attack to keep defenses honest. Get Anderson and the receivers off to a fast start and our run-game will open up.
We won't get to play the Bengals every week, so simply handing the ball off to Lewis 20 times isn't the automatic fix that it'd appear to be on the surface. This is an "effect" stat, not a "cause" one.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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I agree.
If you can't get big chunks in the air, running the ball keeps you close in a low scoring(you hope) affair
Really? How did the Ravens do it on thier Superbowl run? Who was thier running back? Didn't they have a QB that virtually nobody wanted? Who were these receivers that got those big chunks?
Just playing devils advocate,,, But there is more than just ONE formula for success in the NFL.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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All Pro
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Just a musing, but I wonder how much of the lack of motion has to do with playing Sanders and Steptoe. Hell BE has been out of position. Just a thought.
"I don't remember any of my catches. I remember the drops." - Kellen Winslow II
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Really? How did the Ravens do it on thier Superbowl run?
By using a defense that could score off of turnovers, and a defense who can stop people 3 and out, and a defense that got pressure, and a defense that had coverage.
I guess what I'm trying to say is their defense carried them to the Superbowl. Ours won't.
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We won't get to play the Bengals every week, so simply handing the ball off to Lewis 20 times isn't the automatic fix that it'd appear to be on the surface.
Within those nine games we won where Lewis rushed 20+ times how many of those games were we holding a lead and using Lewis to run out the clock?
Successful, winning teams will often have a high number of carries in their wins. If we look at the situational stats we find that many of those runs are just that; taking time off the clock in the fourth quarter.
In the Browns vs. Cowboy's game they ran on us 31 times. They ran 12 times in the fourth quarter. That means for the first three quarters they rushed 19 times. Nearly 40% of their runs were in the fourth quarter with a lead.
Regardless of all that, I do think Chud gives up on the run a bit too early. It might appear even worse as he starts passing more and it hasn't been working or backfires completely, before you know it it's too late to run.
#gmstrong
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The rats won the super bowl.
There's an exception to every rule.
Every once in a while all of the stars line up.
Toad made THE GOOD point. The 9 & 1 record when Lewis runs more than 20 times. So, against Dallas, if we just gave JL the ball a bunch of times in the 2nd half we'd have won.
What that stat means is...when we've got a lead and we soften them up with the pass and we have the luxury of giving the ball to JL 20 plus times, (or we're playing the hapless bungles with Carson Palmer on the bench) then we win.
AL 29 76 14 R_K
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...sounds to me like you're actually talking about "balance." wow... what a concept for us to try- hopefully soon....
"too many notes, not enough music-"
#GMStong
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Horsehockey on big chunks.....don't give me balls flying downfield, give me moving the chains every 3 downs.
I disagree....but only in the sense that big chunks doesn't have to mean 25 yards...over 5 is a big chunk to me...most teams don't average 5 yards a carry.
I do admit, my wording was misleading without defining the meaning.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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Really?
Yes, really.
If you took the time to read what I said you would have noted i said it keeps you close in low scoring(hopefully low scoring) games.
The Ravens won all sorts of Low scoring games, dominated by their defense.
Look it up.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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Yeah, I know they had a tough D... I understand that. But we weren't talking D,, we were talking O...
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Well if your defense is holding the other team to 10 ppg...you can stick with the run because you only need a few points to win the game...and
... yes they win run the ball more, control the clock...lower chances for a turnover and win based off their defense....are you saying your teams defensive abilities don't effect the offensive play calling and overall gameplan?
These teams that we are playing the next few weeks are not going to let Jamal run around, they will force us to throw.
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...sounds to me like you're actually talking about "balance."
wow... what a concept for us to try- hopefully soon....
Balance.....keep the other team guessing.......by guessing, you'll keep the other team honest......then, when we're in a game, we can start to wear down the other teams defense, which adds up to more than 20 carries for Lewis.
I wish it were as simple as handing the ball off 20 times. The equation doesn't go like this:
20 carries = W
It goes more like this:
Balance + Defense = 20 meaningful carries.
In many peoples minds, the 20 is on the wrong side of the equal sign
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Stats are for........oh man........what is that saying.......stats are for.........stats are for shep! on to other business: Quote:
These teams that we are playing the next few weeks are not going to let Jamal run around, they will force us to throw.
I disagree with this. Teams have been playing the intermediate and deep throws tight to force DA into shorter throws. That allows Lewis to run the ball. If I'm a team playing the Browns offense I keep everything in front of me and if they rip off a few drives dominated by the run so be it.
At some point DA will make a dumb decision or a bad throw and we'll take advantage. That's the book on Cleveland and they have to prove they can win against a middle deep pass protecting defense.
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Its not like you run the ball 20 times and win automatically... Based on the flow of the game and how the team is playing determines on whether or not runs or passes are called. If the run isn't effective then its possible that they shift away from it and pass more.
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Quote:
Its not like you run the ball 20 times and win automatically... Based on the flow of the game and how the team is playing determines on whether or not runs or passes are called. If the run isn't effective then its possible that they shift away from it and pass more.
This is kind of similar to what Toad said above - which I thought hit the nail right on the head.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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you mean if we run 20 times and get 1 yard per carry thats not good to me it comes down to like you said balance....if you can get 3-4 yards on first down you keep pounding it...if they bring a safety down to help you find the single coverage and throw with play action... if they come out stacking the line you throw to back them up...a good offense doesn't really have an identity imo..they adapt to the defense to exploit the weakness in it... when you can't run the ball it puts you into 2-3 and and long and those are lower percentage plays....why? cause the defense knows what you are likely to do...pass....hence screens and draws... we need our line healthy...then i think we can run against the best of them...then we have the ability to keep them honest... and like you said about defense...thats huge too..as that is the other way to make you one dimensional on offense...if your behind your gonna pass...
Attitude is everything....FEAR THE ELF!!!
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Quote:
Balance.....keep the other team guessing.......by guessing, you'll keep the other team honest......then, when we're in a game, we can start to wear down the other teams defense, which adds up to more than 20 carries for Lewis.
I LOL when I see these records when a team runs 20-25+ times a game...It seems pretty obvious how they can do that...And why...Carry a LEAD into the 4th quarter...I agree...U can't just line up and run run run and expect to get a W...
And u definately can't run run pass every possession...Which leads me to something I don't like about Chudzinski...And I'd like to see it change when Stallworth's back...
Teams are obviously taking away the deep ball...Which leads to Anderson having to look down and take the shorter stuff...This is where u gotta be accurate...And he ain't...And it's killin' us...
Chud's WAY TO DEPENDENT on a "Power" running game...There's no need to have Vickers in the backfield every time we wanna run...I'd like to see a spread offense and RUN OUT OF IT more often...It's damn near the 2nd most deadly play in any arsenal just short of the back out of the backfield...And it doesn't have to be Wright or Harrison...SPREAD IT WITH LEWIS IN THERE...
Go Browns!!!
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Just a musing, but I wonder how much of the lack of motion has to do with playing Sanders and Steptoe. Hell BE has been out of position. Just a thought.
I didnt think of that. Sanders has talent; decent size, speed, and hands. Maybe he cant learn the playbook?
I dont think Steptoe is the hybrid WR that Savage is looking for. Ive seen Savage respond, to throwning downfield more in an interview, on how Steptoe is 5-9 and not as tall as the other WRs. I think Savage kept Steptoe on the roster because he was drafted as a punt returner and hes getting a shot due to the injuries of Cribbs first and foremost because of the return game plus the injury to Jurevicious and Stallworth. Maybe we will see more motion when JJ gets back 
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Quote:
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Stat of the week - the Browns are 9-1 when Lewis carries the ball 20 or more times.
I posted that a week ago....
But this is the stat of this week. When you posted it, it was the stat of last week.
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I've got two problems, The GM instead of the coach responding to why a receiver doesn't run downfield.
But the bigger problem I have, Is anybody using 5 foot 9 as an excuse to not go out on the field get open and catch.
so the 6 foot plus players can get open or make catches over db's more easily, but that doesn't mean you don't strive to make the play at 5 foot 9,
I don't think that's actually what was being said, their must have been some miscomunication somewhere.
Can Deshaun Watson play better for the Browns, than Baker Mayfield would have? ... Now the Games count.
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"...There's no need to have Vickers in the backfield every time we wanna run..."
Might have to take issue with you on this one, DinD....
Vickers was single-handedly repsonsible for at least half (maybe more) of Jamal's yardage last year, even when teams KNEW we were gonna run it down their throats with Jamal.
Kid was blowin' up would-be 1st wave tacklers all year... allowing Jamal to get to the second level.... which helped us to move chains and wear down D's....
Vickers is an unsung hero in my book....and because of his abiltity to take a swing pass in the flat and make some serious yards, he's much more valuable to us than Terelle Smith ever was.
Not smart to take him out of the regular rotation.... he actually ADDS to the formula you just outlined.
Bottom line: he's versatile enough to KEEP him n the lineup, and to use as the play-by-play situation dictates.
.02
"too many notes, not enough music-"
#GMStong
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I agree that the stat . . . team X is (put wining record here) when RB carries X number of times, can mean just as well that you have a lead and are pounding the ball to work the clock.
and face it they ran Lewis so much because they didn't want anderson to have another 3 INT game.
Ruining QB's since 1999.
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I've got two problems, The GM instead of the coach responding to why a receiver doesn't run downfield.
But the bigger problem I have, Is anybody using 5 foot 9 as an excuse to not go out on the field get open and catch.
so the 6 foot plus players can get open or make catches over db's more easily, but that doesn't mean you don't strive to make the play at 5 foot 9,
I don't think that's actually what was being said, their must have been some miscomunication somewhere.
Savage seems to be in love with the taller receiver. I remember a quote from last season where he said vs. the Rams "We seem to tower over this team due to the height advantage."
I understand why tall receivers are valuable, but man, a guy like Santana Moss isn't?
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Well the Giants are going to be looking to shutdown the run and the Browns will need balance in their attack..they can't just try to run it..they have to open it up but use things that have been successful.
I always say throw to the backs...get the TE's involved early and keep going to things that actually work.
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I think we have to show right off the bat that we confident in DA...and show the Giants we will throw the ball. Try some down the field routes. Also i think we need to neutralize their pass rush...hit them with screens early and often...make them respect the pass, short and deep.
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Quote:
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Stat of the week - the Browns are 9-1 when Lewis carries the ball 20 or more times.
I posted that a week ago....
Not to be a downer, but here's another "Stat of the week" - of those 10 games, the combined record of the teams we beat is 51-82 (.383), with only one team above .500 and 8 teams with a losing record. Ignoring the whole strength of schedule factor is exactly why everyone thought we'd be great this year while others that read in between the lines saw a possible fluke. Stats MUST be taken into context because without context, you can draw any conclusion.
That said, do we need to run more? Absolutely. If we abandon the run, we lose, but if we don't pass, we lose harder. Just realize that running the ball isn't some magical formula for success as the stat would have you believe, it's just allowed us to beat cupcake teams. The Giants are about as far from that as you can get.
We're... we're good?
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Stat of the week - the Browns are 9-1 when Lewis carries the ball 20 or more times.
I posted that a week ago....
Not to be a downer, but here's another "Stat of the week" - of those 10 games, the combined record of the teams we beat is 51-82 (.383), with only one team above .500 and 8 teams with a losing record. Ignoring the whole strength of schedule factor is exactly why everyone thought we'd be great this year while others that read in between the lines saw a possible fluke. Stats MUST be taken into context because without context, you can draw any conclusion.
That said, do we need to run more? Absolutely. If we abandon the run, we lose, but if we don't pass, we lose harder. Just realize that running the ball isn't some magical formula for success as the stat would have you believe, it's just allowed us to beat cupcake teams. The Giants are about as far from that as you can get.
Yeah, just thought I would add something that everyone probably knows already anyway. Teams run the ball more when they are leading, so the more carries Lewis has, the better the team is probably doing as a whole. Seems some people think that if he hits 20 carries it equals a win when in reality he usually tops 20 carries when the game is in our favor and we are trying to control the clock.
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That's how I always viewed it. You run the ball early to test the D, you pass to keep them honest.
Then if you have a lead, you run to control the clock. If you're behind, you go to the pass more to move the ball faster to score.
I think the trick is knowing when it's time to move the ball by air more than by ground. It's a delicate line, because giving up on the run too early will just hamper your attempts to pass to victory.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,527
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,527 |
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Well the Giants are going to be looking to shutdown the run and the Browns will need balance in their attack..they can't just try to run it..they have to open it up but use things that have been successful.
I always say throw to the backs...get the TE's involved early and keep going to things that actually work.
I agree with this especially against the Giants. Their defense will pin its ears back until they have to do otherwise.
Getting those screens and quick passes to the TE and RB's or even a few quick slants to the WR's early on would be good.
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
#gmstrong
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399 |
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We've gotta pass the ball well in order to win in this league.
It's nice to be able to run...it's important to be able to run...but it's essential to be able to pass well.
If you are one dimensional in this league you will get beat.. some teams are great at throwing and use that to set up the run, some teams pound at the running game and use that to set up the pass... but all great offenses are great at one and pretty good at the other.. right now we suck at one and are worse at the other.
yebat' Putin
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 9,149
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 9,149 |
Quote:
Quote:
Well the Giants are going to be looking to shutdown the run and the Browns will need balance in their attack..they can't just try to run it..they have to open it up but use things that have been successful.
I always say throw to the backs...get the TE's involved early and keep going to things that actually work.
I agree with this especially against the Giants. Their defense will pin its ears back until they have to do otherwise.
Getting those screens and quick passes to the TE and RB's or even a few quick slants to the WR's early on would be good.
The entire League will do this until Anderson's ability to be effective changes.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 874
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 874 |
DC - for the last few years the Patriots didn't give a rats ass if you shut down their run. They would just pass you straight into the ground.
AL 29 76 14 R_K
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