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I while back somebody posted that we need a "Top 5 OLB". I misread that and it got me thinking. Make the "5" an S, and skip the "L".
We have not had for a long time, a big hitter, somebody who puts fear into the opposition. A Dick Butkus type.
Maybe Bell could be that guy, maybe somebody in next year's draft. Jackson, Wimbley, Hall may be about average, McGinnest is gone next near, Bell and Williams are question marks. 3-4 defenses need a dominant linebacker, we don't have anybody even close.
What we do have is a lot of young guys in the process of improving, and we have seen guys come out of nowhere. I would like to see Bell get some PT for evaluation.
Last edited by Nelson37; 10/15/08 09:43 PM.
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Williams may be athletic but he doesn't have the instincts to diagnose a play then atack..he's similar to Dra in that area.
Last edited by Attack Dawg; 10/16/08 09:29 AM.
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He's gotten slightly better, but the Browns had to know this when they drafted him. I still think Leon can be a starter, but that's just my opinion.
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I can't help but feel that Phil will look at upgrading Dra and then McGinest before he touches Wimbley/Jackson.
I agree with that. Both were drafted pretty high and are young.
I am not saying DQ isn't decent enough....Wimbly, no, he isn't good at all as a backer, but I agree, we aren't going to get rid of him.
Willie would have to be the first to replace since he is gone after this season. If we go into the draft with a target, I would have to think it is a OLB, but if the right MLB was available, we might go that direction.
I guess Bell is the key at this point. It looks like we got a real bonus with Hall, so if bell actually pans out as that big hitter in the middle, we all of a sudden go from being somewhat weak to somewhat strong.
When the heck is Bell going to be ready to go?? It would be nice to see him in action soon enough this season to maybe answer a few questions. Backer isn't one of those positions that takes a long time to mesh in with the rest of the unit. If he is as good as some hope, he should be able to come in fairly soon and start making a impact.
Not necessarily as a starter, but in a rotation of sorts.
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Yes I thought about that...Bell is in the equation..and if he really has the skills, he would replace Andra.
It would reduce having to use a pick for another backer..but I doubt if Phil stands pat , nor should he..
He needs to get the best valus either in FA or the draft..so it means any ILB/OLB/CB that is the BPA with our first two picks needs to be hauled in..
I also think they really need to work with Hall..if he can take over for McGinest , once more it cuts down on a weakness..and we can address another.
I heard he has been cleared to start running..but thats it for now, and you know what? '
I wouldn't want to rush him..let him take his time and be full go for next year..
Usually when they start that rehabbing they have to build the muscle up..something he couldn't do since the latter part of his senior year with the bum knee..
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Quote:
He needs to get the best valus either in FA or the draft..so it means any ILB/OLB/CB that is the BPA with our first two picks needs to be hauled in..
No doubt...thought the target list may be bigger than just those positions...I think on the offensive side of the ball, a running back or O-lineman could be on that positional needs list, so if the BPA was one of those, we might go that direction.
It probably would be Davis to be replaced seeing DQ was one of Phil's picks, though I am not as convinced as you, but we have been down that road so we don't need to rehash that.
Much depends on where we draft because as you know, you can look at past drafts and at certain points certain positions start to come into play unless you are talking about some superstar type who goes top 5 or something like that.
Most corners and backers minus the really cream type players seem to start leaving the board in the mid-late teens..backs and Oline(minus the LTs) around that 20 mark.
There should be several players of fairly equal value, so this year might be a year where we do lean more towards a specific need since any way you go is going to net you a player about as good as any other player you might choose.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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Phils list should be starting to take shape now, since he was in Trojan territory scouting several players..
I would assume this could be his list:
LB-tweeners/ILB
CB
RB
WR
DE
Since he drafted Rucker, TE is no longer a need.
Most corners and backers minus the really cream type players seem to start leaving the board in the mid-late teens..backs and Oline(minus the LTs) around that 20 mark.
The run on corners susally goes from late round one to late round two..
If we want a good one, we best get one with that second pick..
Plus we have to let the season play out, and see where we end up at .
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"Yes thats right I said Wimbely...that kid is God Awful against the Run..I watch the Giants OL McKenzie "Blow" Wimbely off the ball a few times in the running game last night."
btw - isn't McKenzie the Giants RT? I just can't remember Wimbley shifting to the Strongside at all in the game. Thought it was all McG and we saw a lot of Hall in the 2nd half.
Also just a note. "off the ball a few times" that can describe any Front 7 guy in almost every game.
But on the subject again a note.
McG is retiring after this season.
AD is not signed and honestly I'd be shocked if we re-sign him.
Big C...don't you have some Scouting credentials??? You think AD is our best run stopper...lol  is that from his 20something tackles in 5 games?
He sucked in the Giants game his absolute worse game as a Brown!
DQ...Attack, I came down hard on DQ in our first two games. But I am happy to state that I've seen a big turn around from him the last 3!!! I'm so happy I was wrong on that thought as I was starting to think getting him was a mistake and POOF! He made the turn...at least the last 3 games I've seen him get better and better.
But we are losing 2 of our starters at the season's end. So I have to agree with Knight at least half way. We must make improvements.
And you know what If we can make upgrades on DQ and Wimbley in the future, fine! Thats what a dynasty is all about.
But both of them will get better once the talent around them gets better.
But I agree Wimbley is not an OLB that a defense can be built around. I tried to tell anyone and everyone who would listen - That Guy Was SHAWNE MERRIMAN!
If a similar guy like Merriman comes around and falls into our lap via draft or FA. Jump on it and upgrade.
But right now we have 2 guys that really make me curious. One actually makes me smile. That is Alex Hall. If this kid is doing what he's doing now as a rookie. Imagine his growth into our Defense by years 2 n 3!!! And then we got our first pick of the 08 draft. Beau Bell. I hope he gets a lot of playing time in the 2nd half of the season.
Got to run...will add more if necessary later.
JMHO
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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DQ...Attack, I came down hard on DQ in our first two games. But I am happy to state that I've seen a big turn around from him the last 3!!! I'm so happy I was wrong on that thought as I was starting to think getting him was a mistake and POOF! He made the turn...at least the last 3 games I've seen him get better and better.
But we are losing 2 of our starters at the season's end. So I have to agree with Knight at least half way. We must make improvements.
And you know what If we can make upgrades on DQ and Wimbley in the future, fine! Thats what a dynasty is all about.
But both of them will get better once the talent around them gets better.
My thoughts as well... they will get better. Wimbley I think was drafted with the intention of being a big high impact player, which he really isn't.. DQ on the hand I think was drafted with the intention that he would be a very solid player but never a star, which I think he is.
And I'm never against upgrading but right now, we have a couple holes to fill before we start making a concerted effort to replace young players like Wimbley and DQ...
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That is Alex Hall. If this kid is doing what he's doing now as a rookie. Imagine his growth into our Defense by years 2 n 3!!!
I approach this with cautious optimism because we all said the same thing after Wimbley had a very good rookie season... I really hope that by seasons end we know a little more about Hall and if he really is the diamond in the rough we think he could be, then that takes one of the positions we need to fill off the table and allows us to concentrate on other things...
yebat' Putin
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But I agree Wimbley is not an OLB that a defense can be built around. I tried to tell anyone and everyone who would listen - That Guy Was SHAWNE MERRIMAN!
I know..you had the biggest mouth about Merry-go round  I talked a lot about DeMarcus Ware..but WE KNEW Phil wasn't going to drop and let Edwards go by.. But something I keep feeling is that Phil is trying to build the Browns like a NFC team instead of a AFC team..might sound odd...but I keep feeling like the team resembles Philly on some level..
Last edited by Attack Dawg; 10/16/08 02:06 PM.
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Yea, we could have had Merriman, DQ and then Dominique Foxworth... you can never have too many Terps.. 
yebat' Putin
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hehe..I knew if I jabbed enough you'd come in.. But I would take Foxworth..
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hehe..I knew if I jabbed enough you'd come in..
But I would take Foxworth..
Well while we're at it, EJ Henderson up in Minnesota would be a decent replacement for AD... 
yebat' Putin
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I was tracking him during the draft and wondered why he fell..I thought I heard he had some sort of injury with his foot... http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playerpages/player_main.aspx?sport=NFL&id=1177Vikings MLB E.J. Henderson underwent reconstructive surgery on his left foot after being placed on injured reserve Monday.
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Tackles are an UN-official NFL stat. They are hard to gauge, but yes he has less now than he should. Still he'll likely end up with around 120, with maybe 80 solo. Not bad in a defense based around LB play.
Just because he doesn't have insane amounts of tackles doesn't mean he isn't playing the run well. The Giants ran to the left to avoid him and Rogers.
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"Tackles are an UN-official NFL stat."
Honestly...I could give two dinks about stats. Just that with the amounts of runs we have faced 20 something is gosh awful for a 3-4 ILB after 5 games.
But I agree...forget about the stats. AD played well ONE GAME and only one game.
Forgot which one but it was early on. It was in that game he actually filled his gaps with some explosion.
Rogers has done his job and taken a lot of Interior attention. And our next best Corey Williams has actually played better n better the last two games (I think his shoulder is finally getting better as well as understanding our D and technique against double teams) who is on AD side.
Sorry but AD is slowly disappearing and he was BAD real BAD this game against the Giants. I won't be surprised to see LEON starting.
As for the caution mentioned regarding Hall. Big difference between Hall and Wimbley...Wimbley has tooth picks for legs. Hall has tree trunks....and after he spends an off season in our conditioning program will be bigger and faster. But I also think he has longer arms...not sure but they seem longer. Tremendous talent...I giggle  everytime I think about us getting him in the 7th round.... 
But BigC...you don't get rid of your best Run Stopper....AD is gone and as mentioned I don't think he'll finish the season as our starter. Its ok...everyone has to be wrong sometimes.
JMHO
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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Sorry but AD is slowly disappearing and he was BAD real BAD this game against the Giants. I won't be surprised to see LEON starting.
He's as good as gone. I can only hope we manage to find someone during the off-season. The problem is that Leon isn't any more physical than Davis. If he were, he'd be in there more than on just passing downs.
The reality is that Davis continues to be soft, he continues to over-run plays, and what's unfortunate, he appears to actually be losing a step. When watching him compared to Jackson, he's clearly not in the same ballpark. Jackson's weakness is his size. Davis is supposed to be strong enough to take on blocks. He's not. At least Jackson can beat blockers to the point because of his speed and elite instincts. My opinion of Jackson is rising.
If I were Savage, I'd attempt to trade Wimbley to a 4-3 team that needs a 3rd down pass-rush specialist. He isn't worth much more than that at this point. He's too soft at the point of attack, and is a one-trick pony as a rusher. He's Al Noga all over again, and we need more than that.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Jackson can beat blockers to the point because of his speed and elite instincts.
I don't understand why this continues to pop up on the board. DQ has nowhere near "elite" instincts. I happen to believe they are below average and can prove it watching the games only watching him. He has good to very good speed and that's it. His insticts are not good. Not absolutely awful but closer to that than elite.
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Because you dont know what you're watching?
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I don't understand why this continues to pop up on the board.
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I happen to believe they are below average and can prove it watching the games only watching him.
Because I don't believe what you believe, just as I didn't believe it was yet time to bench Anderson.
Jackson is improving as a player. Prior to the last couple of games, I didn't feel that way.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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How is he improving? I don't disagree with you, I'm honestly just asking.
I was at the game so I didn't get to see any film on it besides the highlights, but I know that we were eaten alive up the middle so I automatically faulted both he and Davis. Was it just Davis that game?
Also, I remember Diam and Vers talking about watching film on the ILB's. They noted that Leon wasn't as bad as everyone thought he was originally.
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
#gmstrong
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To answer your question first, Jackson played rather well, all things considered. We faced one of THE elite running games in the league and got gashed. We're an improved defense but we're still middle-to-bottom-third in the league. It's also worth noting that they ran on throwing downs and throwing formations, which really exposes our guys. Davis and Wimbley are serious problems against the run. While Jackson is better, he can only do so much at 6' 230.
It's tougher to really evaluate Jackson because he's clearly not physically suited to the 3-4. We all know what 3-4 LB's should ideally be physically, so I won't bother going there.
So, with that in mind, IMHO, what I saw of him last year and what I've started seeing of him this year is different. Before, his reactions were a touch slow. He'd get a sense of where the run game was going, but couldn't react before a lineman got to him. This year, he's reacting faster and beating the blockers more often. Some of that is a direct reaction to having linemen up front who can slow down the blockers, and some of that is pure experience. It's also my opinion that he's a surer tackler than he was last year.
We need to keep in mind that he wasn't exposed to what we threw at him as a Brown. Being undersized anyway, the 3-4 is an uphill battle for him, but I feel he's improving.
I would also add that while I believe he's improving, he's not a difference maker, and I question if he ever will be. Before this year started, I was beginning to feel that he was a failed selection. In another thread somewhere, I said he's "not as bad as Davis, but he's just another linebacker." I still feel that he's just another guy out there, but he still has some upside.
As for Leon, I watched him in Miami, and really wanted Savage to take a chance on him, which he did. He's a gifted athlete but he's still lost sometimes and not the most physical player. That means he's unlikely to be a viable 1st-down 'backer (The old term was two-down backer, but as the league continues to move towards the pass and specialized defenses, those players are often in for one-down only). If we could combine Jackson's tackling, speed, toughness, and instincts with the size of Williams......
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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If we could combine Jackson's tackling, speed, toughness, and instincts with the size of Williams...... You'd have this guy:  Aaron Curry LB Vandy..
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Or...drum roll...Rey Maualuga...  He isn't as versitile as Curry who could start at either OLB or ILB.. but he brings a physical presence to the backer position..dude can hit..
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Quote:
Or...drum roll...Rey Maualuga...
He isn't as versitile as Curry who could start at either OLB or ILB.. but he brings a physical presence to the backer position..dude can hit..
He's the best defensive player in this draft. I would cry if the Browns were able to get their hands on him.
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I like Aaron Curry of Wake.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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I doubt if Phil will be in a position to get either Curry or Maualuga..unless he's able to trade up..and yes I expect the Browns to have a better than .500 record  Soooo..I would be scouting this guy hard...  Jasper Brinkley ILB South Carolina 6' 2 265 ..solid hitter..
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Well, you were the one who started posting pictures of the cream LBs out there. I like Jasper as well....good all around player.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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Well I did say Phil might be able to trade up for one..since he's been at USC , U know he's got his eye on Mau... As far as prospects go..you oughta know I'm gonna post some defensive gems we could go after..
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Some stud LBs to look out for OLB George Selvie, South Florida. Has good speed in pass rushing move to play dangerous ROLB/RE to take off some pressure on secondary. MLB Rey Maualuga, USC. Can be a powerful run stopper inside the box. MLB Brandon Spikes He has all tools to be 4-3 and 3-4 LB OLB Aaron Curry, Wake Forest. He would be perfect for SAM lb MLB James Laurinaitis, OSU. Would be good fit in tampa 2 DE Greg Hardy, Ole Miss Good fit for 3-4 6 3 275 and he potentially runs in 4.7 OLB Brian Cushing, USC. Great size for 3-4 and always positions himself well MLB Jasper Brinkley Heavy hitter and just solid all around Attack I have to ask your personal opionon on terrence cody subing for Rodgers at nose. I dont understand the hype around Vincent Oghobaase. Cody is 6'5" 385 lb  Trust me his arms look small because he is THAT huge 
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