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Bingo ... exactly what i meant ... I never meant the WCO spread the field horizanlly in the same way the spread does .. but it got the same affect .. it spread the field horizanally .. and Held .. u adressed my points .. and I guess u discussed why the spread is different than the WCO ... but U did never really answer the question .. why is the spread so special compared to those two O's in spreading the field .. and I wouldn't worry about board bloat bro .. We've got threads on the first page with posts from june 20th .. and what is being said .. is pretty boring .. not that this is all that exciting but its no worse than anything else being discussed .. 
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"running a majority" of the time was a bad choice of words .. the guys I'm taking about ... Vick, V. Young, S. Young, Randall and Elway .. all looked to do that .. and Held .. teams had to DEFEND them just like u do a QB in the spread .. U better account for them running every time they faded back to pass .. OR ELSE U were liable .. so in fact they did negate the 10 on 11 . and it is also no coincidence that S. Young and Elway became better players and WON once they STOPPED TUCKING AND RUNNING AT FIRST SIGN OF PRESSURE .. same can be said of Randall .. Vick NEVER got that .. and thats fine .. cause he is NOT AN ACCURATTE ENOUGH PASSER to ever be a good nfl QB .. same with V. Young ... he will NEVER BE GOOD IN THIS LEAGUE .. just like Jamarcus Russell .. NOT ACCURATE ENOUGH .. Quote:
And the players you're thinking of were very athletic, gifted scramblers making something out of nothing when defensive coverage on receivers were excellent. The best was Steve Young with John Elway right behind him. There were also players like Tarkenton, Cunningham, Roethlisberger and others who would drive a defense crazy. Where an offense would get a first down even though they had played perfectly.
No . I meant RUNNING QB'S .. NOT SCRAMBLING QB'S .. ben is no wheres near a RUNNING QB ... no wheres near it ..
and guys like Young and Elway became BETTER QB'S WHEN THEY BECAME SCRAMBLERS AS OPPOSED TO RUNNING QB'S ... and Tark was never a runner .. he was a scrambler first who only ran when the opportunity presented itself ...
U see what I'm getting at here .... I sure hope so .. cause it couldn't be much clearer than it is now ..
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And as to your other comment...Vick and Young would be great running the spread o. So would the other QBs I mentioned with the exception of Tarkenton who you'd never want trying an interior run.
you;d wanna run Vick up the middle .. *LOL* .. OK .. U do know he was small and frail .. correct .. matter of fact .. relatively speaking ... he was smaller and frailer than Tark compared to the size and atheletic ability of wh they played against ..
there was a reason that guys like Elway and S. Young and even Randall became better QB's when they stopped being RUNNERS FIRST ... and bro .... when they were in the game .. and they stepped back to pass .. u best have accounted for them .. cause if not ... U were in trouble ... and the thing is ..
ELWAY AND YOUNG WERE VERY VERY ACCURATE QB'S .. guys like Vick and Vince young and now this Pryor kid at OSU .. NOT SO ACCURATE ..
the new crop of "spread" guys .. aren't going to scare U THROWING THE BALL ..
what I'm going to do against them .. CONTAIN THEM and make them beat me throwing the ball ..
and in college its alot easier said than done .. in the NFL .. NOT SO HARD ..
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3. There are a glut of QBs in college and even more in HS that can run it very effectively.
U need to define run it affectively .. U really do ... I mean the poster child for the spread 3 years ago was Alex Smith ... are u saying if he went to an NFL team and they ran a spread O he'd be all that and a bag of chips ....
putting him in a spread O in the NFL would not take him from SCRAP HEAP to an efficient/affective NFL QB ...
U need to take into account the level of play at the 2 levels ... 9throwing HS in is pretty funny ... *LOL* .. ..) ..
at the end of the day ... MOST MAJOR COLLEGE PROGRAMS DON'T RUN A SPREAD .. go ahead .. take a look around .. go to the MAJOR CONFRENENCES and tell me what u see ..
one of the best "spread" QB's in college was V. Young ( U can call it what u want .. i believe they caled it a veer ... but it was a spread O when it was all said and done) ... go take al look at what type of O there running now ... they have a QB that can THROW THE BALL ... there not doing the 11 vs 11 thing anymore ... WHY IS THAT?? ...
so please do me two things ...
1. DEFINE AFFECTIVE ...
2. take a look at the major college programs and colleges and see just how many are actually running the spread ...
Okay...I'll start with defining AFFECTIVE (effctive sic):
Are teams that go to the spread option able to generate more points than they did previously? Are they winning more games than they did previously?
If yes and yes...then that would be my definition of effective.
Look at the teams that are winning, look at the teams that have made huge jumps. Many of those are spread option offense or teams that use the spread option quite a bit.
Who's in the BCS bowl games? Who's winning the championship?
When a spread option team like West Virginia can absolutely dismantle a Georgia team in a BCS game like they did a few years ago....when Georgia was a vastly superior athletic team...then you have something effective.
How many college run the spread option as their base offense? Probably 20 out of 110 or so. All of them now have that package in their offense and it's trending north on adoption.
And HS is funny? I'd be willing to bet that at least 50% of the top high school QBs in the country are running the Spread option today. Talent is there. It's winning HS state championships at a healthy clip.
And let me step way out on a limb.......Alex Smith. I do think Alex Smith could run the SO effectively in the NFL. He wouldn't be a guy like Vince Young but he'd be a depth guy on a SO team. A guy like Roethlisberger would be ideal.
Let's say a team like Miami were to switch to the spread option next year. They make a trade this year for V. Young and draft Tim Tebow the following year. They may even draft Terrelle Pryor two years from now. They may think of bringing in Vick...Think about a team with Pat White and some of these QB options. Do you worry so much about QBs going down? Not really.
And having Miami run this with Ronnie Brown as your hybrid. That would be ideal. Speed, size, blocking. He'd be numero uno in that scenario. And Ted Ginn as a SO WR. Again...nice.
That would be a dangerous offense.
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If you're going to make a spread option beat you throwing the ball then you're going to be rung up for about 40 points a game. Why? You're going to have too many guys running one on one.
And by the way you know someone else who'd be good in the spread option?
Brady Quinn.
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Now this is a fun thread!
Well worth a read. I was looking up my previous comments as it pertains to the spread option and the potential Kelly hire.
And RG3, Wilson, Kaepernick and Newton are making me look fairly good.
Enjoy!
btw....miss seeing some of these names here.
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Quote:
Now this is a fun thread!
Well worth a read. I was looking up my previous comments as it pertains to the spread option and the potential Kelly hire.
And RG3, Wilson, Kaepernick and Newton are making me look fairly good.
Enjoy!
btw....miss seeing some of these names here.
Ahh thank you for reviving this. 
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How many running QBs do you see in the bigs?
Not many, but you are thinking in todays terms.
Twenty-five years ago, how many basketball players played in the NBA who couldn't shoot the 17 footer?? Not many. Today they abound.
The point is that you can't think in terms of what was. You have to think out of the box and try to project what will be.
One other factor...as teams make the transition, that means the D has to get faster, so the players will get lighter, lessening the chance for hits.
But speed really isn't the only defense. The SEC has lots of speed and it doesn't do much to stop it.
There was a time in the NFL where you had to have a Bronco Nigurski running the ball. Nobody saw a league where you would throw the ball 30 times a game.
The game evolved. It will again.
You've been kinda predicting this for a while. I honestly don't know if it's something that will work as a full time offensive plan, but as part of an overall package, I don't know why it can't.
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
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I honestly don't know if it's something that will work as a full time offensive plan, but as part of an overall package, I don't know why it can't.
The problem before was that you had college QBs who could throw and college QBs who could run but almost none that could do both at an NFL level...
The biggest concern to the whole thing, as I see it, is the durability of the QBs in a 16+ game season with the size and speed of NFL defenders... Look at RGIII he didn't finish 3 games this year because he was getting knocked around while Luck took every snap... sure it's just a one year sample but I don't think it's a coincidence. Luck ran when he had to, got first downs and got down or ran out of bounds...
I think it can work though, I saw the Redskins totally neutralize Demarcus Ware by not even trying to block him, running the read option right at him, freezing him, and then going whichever way he didn't go... However the more teams start to run it, the more defenses will learn to prepare for it...
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I think it can be run successfully by the first team or two that give it a go with the right coach. I also think the Browns are a perfect fit to try it, as we have no franchise QB right now and thus the big drawback (ie getting your $10million QB creamed doesn't apply). Being the first team to run a true read option (that is what we are really talking about here I think) would give you a huge draft advantage (your guys wouldn't be as high on anyone's board, think back to when only a few teams ran the 3-4) and give you an extreme game day advantage as teams would only get a week (or two) a year to prep for your O (which is hard to do for a good read option O). The Browns right now have the personnel to give this a go if we get Kelly as coach, as all we would really need are a couple of read O type QB's (Trent can play in the option and Little/Gordon are perfect for it with their blocking ability). Use the draft to concentrate on building an elite D and take your O guys when they fall to you. At the very least it would be more exciting to watch than the crap we have been subjected to the last few years.
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Quote:
Quote:
I honestly don't know if it's something that will work as a full time offensive plan, but as part of an overall package, I don't know why it can't.
The problem before was that you had college QBs who could throw and college QBs who could run but almost none that could do both at an NFL level...
The biggest concern to the whole thing, as I see it, is the durability of the QBs in a 16+ game season with the size and speed of NFL defenders... Look at RGIII he didn't finish 3 games this year because he was getting knocked around while Luck took every snap... sure it's just a one year sample but I don't think it's a coincidence. Luck ran when he had to, got first downs and got down or ran out of bounds...
I think it can work though, I saw the Redskins totally neutralize Demarcus Ware by not even trying to block him, running the read option right at him, freezing him, and then going whichever way he didn't go... However the more teams start to run it, the more defenses will learn to prepare for it...
And when teams have prepared for it, the offense will throw the ball off of play action.
When your QB can provide the threat of misdirection to neutralize the defense, the receiver will be open downfield.
It's a numbers game. Stop the QB? The RB will have more free space to run. Stop the RB? The QB will have space on the outside. Stop the QB and the RB? Receivers will be open either downfield or in the flat depending on the defensive look.
The days of "run the ball and stop the run" are over. It's about a human game of chess now.
(please note: the above comment is not downplaying the importance of defense one bit. However, offense now wins championships)
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Not to say that our guard play has been great anyway but we'd need lighter more athletic guards for the zone blocking scheme required... and Schwartz may have to shed some pounds to get quicker too. So a big revamp of the online would be needed. We'd also need more athletic TE play. So add two of those in too. Another sprinter or two to play WR as Kelly's frantic pace requires roster depth. WRs also have to be really good down field blockers. Benjamin is fast but at his size I'm not sure how well he can block NFL sized CBs. So that's a need. We'll have to resign Cribbs as he's got the size to block and the speed.
People... Adding an athletic QB isn't the only piece of this puzzle. If Kelly gets the job the roster will need an overhaul.
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NFL corners aren't that much bigger than college corners and Kelly's 5'8" 150 lb guys seem to be blocking them ok... WR blocking isn't about power and mauling people, it's about maintaining contact and allowing the guy with the ball to pick the hole around you... Heinz Ward was a great blocker at 6' 205... Plus I will add, if our biggest problem is that corners are making too many tackles on running plays 10-15 yards downfield.. I think that's a problem I can live with. And if we need smaller faster guards, I don't see that as a big deal... you can find those guys in FA pretty cheap if we need somebody to play the position for a year while we fill in other roster spots... All told I don't think it's nearly as bad as you think it is.. And I'm STILL not advocating for Chip Kelly. 
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Anybody we hire is going to clean some of the house to bring in their own system guys and its not like our guards are pro-bowl caliber anyways. Also, it would be nice to be an innovator at some point instead of the last team to jump on an already crowded bandwagon.
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I will be watching the game tonight just to get a feel for what you guys are talking about but if we hire him I dont think he is going to run the exact same offense here that he runs there.
I also think our guards are pretty athletic. If they can keep the pocket as clean as they did all year I think they would be fine.
When all these other coachs are picking his brain about how he runs stuff I dont think its a 1 way street. Im sure he's asking questions as well.
He has coached about every position on the football field.
He is not my must have guy by a long shot. That being said I just have this feeling about the guy that he is going to be good/great because much like Belicheck he's a student of the game
I'm really looking forward to the game tonight just to get a better feel..
If you need 3 years to be a winner you got here 2 years to early. Get it done Browns.
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jk
Oregon's offense was explosive this year until they played Stanford. A team with good athletes and plays a pro style defense. Oregon scored only 14 points in that game. I consider that a harbinger of things to come for Kelly if he tries to transfer the Ducks offense to the NFL.
Am I perfect? No
Am I trying to be a better person?
Also no
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Quote:
Now this is a fun thread!
Well worth a read. I was looking up my previous comments as it pertains to the spread option and the potential Kelly hire.
And RG3, Wilson, Kaepernick and Newton are making me look fairly good.
Enjoy!
btw....miss seeing some of these names here.
It was a good thread. Thanks for reviving it. It's fun to go back and weight comments made a few years ago and see how they stack up today.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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Except you trashed Griffin all off-season leading up to the draft. Don't remember your stance on the other two guys.
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Quote:
Quote:
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How many running QBs do you see in the bigs?
Not many, but you are thinking in todays terms.
Twenty-five years ago, how many basketball players played in the NBA who couldn't shoot the 17 footer?? Not many. Today they abound.
The point is that you can't think in terms of what was. You have to think out of the box and try to project what will be.
One other factor...as teams make the transition, that means the D has to get faster, so the players will get lighter, lessening the chance for hits.
But speed really isn't the only defense. The SEC has lots of speed and it doesn't do much to stop it.
There was a time in the NFL where you had to have a Bronco Nigurski running the ball. Nobody saw a league where you would throw the ball 30 times a game.
The game evolved. It will again.
You've been kinda predicting this for a while. I honestly don't know if it's something that will work as a full time offensive plan, but as part of an overall package, I don't know why it can't.
Thanks.
It really wasn't predicting as much as it was noticing trends and knowing it more or less had to move that way.
More and more of these guys enter every year and fewer and fewer Luck's can be found.
As I said then: NFL teams are going to have to play someone at QB. If spread guys are all you can find, you best coach it or stick a guy in a system he can't run.
My vote says coach it.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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Ammo....im sorry but the Pats have changed systems various times over the years....when is the last time they won a super bowl? oh i know...when they had a solid running game and a top 5 defense....they went undefeated 1 years...with a middle of the pack d and got destroyed in the Super Bowl by a giants team with a Top D with a killer 4 man rush....and a running game...
Fads come and go, but 4 things remain clear...to win in the NFL on a regular basis you must:
1. Stop the Run
2. rush the Passer
3. Run the football
4. Win the field position game with good D and Special teams
you do those 4 things consistently and your a 10-11 win ball club "WITHOUT" a franchise QB...if you have a franchise QB...and you do those 4 things...your a super Bowl winner.
Listen to me....the read option is a gimmick...a fad...i'll bet right now by midseason next year....if it takes that long...D-Coordinators will eat that O for breakfast.....
Many seem to forget...the read option has been in the NFL for awhile...in fact the spread, also known as "The Run and Shoot" had its time in the NFL....but guys like Gunter Cunningham, Dick Lebeau, Bill Cowher, Bill Bellichik, Dom Capers, Jim Johnson, and Monte Kiffin came up with ways to render it useless....its the reason why most teams only use the shotgun on 3rd downs and long distances...because the odds don't favor it.
The Read Option can easily be dealt with, if your 3-4 team you use Lebeau's Zone blitz and attack the A and or B gaps and brings pressure in the backfield (Had the Steelers been healthy this year and had Troy P and others against Washington, Lebeau would have destroyed RG3) The fact the Steelers had so many people out on D they couldn't dial up the pressure like Lebeau usually does.
if your a 4-3 team you run Monte Kiffins Over-Under 4-3 also known as "The Tampa 2" and keep everything underneath and apply pressure with your Defensive Front 4...of course you have to draft DL that are fast and are natural pass rushers for this to work....but its totally doable......and good coverage LB see Derrick Brooks.....
the read option is not that hard to stop...you know the Qb is going to move and you know he wants to throw...so you bring pressure....even if he runs right or left....if you attack the gaps like Lebeau and Kiffin started it rends the read option useless....you will always have a guy in the backfield applying pressure.
traditional pocket QB like Peyton Manning, Brady,etc are harder to defend because:
1. they see and can throw to the whole field (running QB pretty much give up half the field to throw to...good luck throwing across your body in the NFL that almost always means instant INT)
2. Its easier for the OL to make a solid pocket knowing where the QB is...and extra blockers can be left in to block and or chip/leak out the back field.
3. Playaction is easier to sell with a pocket QB....
I don't want to see the Browns get caught up in the next gimmick like The Wildcat which got stopped....the Skins and RG3 won't run the read option for very long...next year you will see RG3 running more of the traditional Shanahan offense that he has custmized over the years he brought back from his days in San Fran under Walsh that he took to Denver, and you will see more of that in Washington next year.
I just don't see the read option being viable...this year marked the 1st year in a long time that the Zone blitz wasn't used as much as it was in years past...if teams go to the read option you will see the Zone blitz return with a vengenace and guys like RG3 and others who run that read option will get destroyed by NFL Defense...
NFL D-Coordinators are not stupid...when all else fails you bring heat...it has always worked in the NFL and it will continue too....
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Ammo....im sorry but the Pats have changed systems various times over the years....when is the last time they won a super bowl? oh i know...when they had a solid running game and a top 5 defense....they went undefeated 1 years...with a middle of the pack d and got destroyed in the Super Bowl by a giants team with a Top D with a killer 4 man rush....and a running game...
Fads come and go, but 4 things remain clear...to win in the NFL on a regular basis you must:
1. Stop the Run
2. rush the Passer
3. Run the football
4. Win the field position game with good D and Special teams
you do those 4 things consistently and your a 10-11 win ball club "WITHOUT" a franchise QB...if you have a franchise QB...and you do those 4 things...your a super Bowl winner.
Listen to me....the read option is a gimmick...a fad...i'll bet right now by midseason next year....if it takes that long...D-Coordinators will eat that O for breakfast.....
Many seem to forget...the read option has been in the NFL for awhile...in fact the spread, also known as "The Run and Shoot" had its time in the NFL....but guys like Gunter Cunningham, Dick Lebeau, Bill Cowher, Bill Bellichik, Dom Capers, Jim Johnson, and Monte Kiffin came up with ways to render it useless....its the reason why most teams only use the shotgun on 3rd downs and long distances...because the odds don't favor it.
The Read Option can easily be dealt with, if your 3-4 team you use Lebeau's Zone blitz and attack the A and or B gaps and brings pressure in the backfield (Had the Steelers been healthy this year and had Troy P and others against Washington, Lebeau would have destroyed RG3) The fact the Steelers had so many people out on D they couldn't dial up the pressure like Lebeau usually does.
if your a 4-3 team you run Monte Kiffins Over-Under 4-3 also known as "The Tampa 2" and keep everything underneath and apply pressure with your Defensive Front 4...of course you have to draft DL that are fast and are natural pass rushers for this to work....but its totally doable......and good coverage LB see Derrick Brooks.....
the read option is not that hard to stop...you know the Qb is going to move and you know he wants to throw...so you bring pressure....even if he runs right or left....if you attack the gaps like Lebeau and Kiffin started it rends the read option useless....you will always have a guy in the backfield applying pressure.
traditional pocket QB like Peyton Manning, Brady,etc are harder to defend because:
1. they see and can throw to the whole field (running QB pretty much give up half the field to throw to...good luck throwing across your body in the NFL that almost always means instant INT)
2. Its easier for the OL to make a solid pocket knowing where the QB is...and extra blockers can be left in to block and or chip/leak out the back field.
3. Playaction is easier to sell with a pocket QB....
I don't want to see the Browns get caught up in the next gimmick like The Wildcat which got stopped....the Skins and RG3 won't run the read option for very long...next year you will see RG3 running more of the traditional Shanahan offense that he has custmized over the years he brought back from his days in San Fran under Walsh that he took to Denver, and you will see more of that in Washington next year.
I just don't see the read option being viable...this year marked the 1st year in a long time that the Zone blitz wasn't used as much as it was in years past...if teams go to the read option you will see the Zone blitz return with a vengenace and guys like RG3 and others who run that read option will get destroyed by NFL Defense...
NFL D-Coordinators are not stupid...when all else fails you bring heat...it has always worked in the NFL and it will continue too....
Well said.
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Yet each year more QB's enter the league and take it by storm running a spread type offense.
It may be a NFL modified spread, but a spread none the less.
Like I said 3 years ago, throwing the ball 30 times a game was considered a fad.
Shoot...throwing it 15 times a game was uncommon. Then, you threw the ball only if your first two running plays didn't net you 5-6 yards.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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Except you trashed Griffin all off-season leading up to the draft. Don't remember your stance on the other two guys.
Yes I did.
And I maintain that the jump he made from college to his first snap in the NFL was amazing. He really learned solid mechanics and for the most part used them consistantly. Couple that with an OC who adapted a system to him and he was great.
I was really, really wrong on him.
Not sure who the other two you're referring to?
I was really high on Lavonte David (who might be defensive ROY) and Bruce Irvin (so was Pete Carroll) among others that I went outside of consensus.
But yeah...don't think I've ever been more wrong on a prospect.
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Other two guys were Wilson and kaepernick... I somehow missed Newton in that list.
You sold me on David... I think I had him at 14... One ahead of bobby Wagner. I didn't buy in on Irvin, though.
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I discounted Wilson because he's so small. Didn't really take the time to think a out him all that much.
I was a big fan of Kaepernick. Hawaii plays Nevada every year and I caught other games of his as well.
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they went undefeated 1 years...with a middle of the pack d and got destroyed in the Super Bowl by a giants team with a Top D with a killer 4 man rush....and a running game...
If by "destroyed" you mean that Brady completed over 60% of his passes for over 260 yards and a TD, Wes Welker had over 100 yards receiving, they only gave up 17 points and they lost by 3 points on a last second touchdown that was set up by a 35 yard circus catch play that Manning isn't going to get off and Tyree isn't going to catch 99 times out of a hundred... then yea, they got destroyed.
yebat' Putin
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How many running QBs do you see in the bigs?
Not many, but you are thinking in todays terms.
Twenty-five years ago, how many basketball players played in the NBA who couldn't shoot the 17 footer?? Not many. Today they abound.
The point is that you can't think in terms of what was. You have to think out of the box and try to project what will be.
One other factor...as teams make the transition, that means the D has to get faster, so the players will get lighter, lessening the chance for hits.
But speed really isn't the only defense. The SEC has lots of speed and it doesn't do much to stop it.
There was a time in the NFL where you had to have a Bronco Nigurski running the ball. Nobody saw a league where you would throw the ball 30 times a game.
The game evolved. It will again.
You've been kinda predicting this for a while. I honestly don't know if it's something that will work as a full time offensive plan, but as part of an overall package, I don't know why it can't.
Thanks.
It really wasn't predicting as much as it was noticing trends and knowing it more or less had to move that way.
More and more of these guys enter every year and fewer and fewer Luck's can be found.
As I said then: NFL teams are going to have to play someone at QB. If spread guys are all you can find, you best coach it or stick a guy in a system he can't run.
My vote says coach it.
You are welcome.,. Credit where credit is due.
I believe at the time you were mostly referring to Tebow. I've heard (read) on here that one thing that will happen is that you better have more than one QB that can run the system on your team because the chances increase that your starter will go down for some game(s).
Well, That kinda means you need a guy like Tebow (big, fast, strong and tough and big heart) but perhaps with more accuracy. Basically, a cross between him and RGIII?
Who's out there like that that we can get?
We can't use Weeden in that role,, McCoy will get injured to easy, Thad Lewis?
Who else is available or might be gettable for us if a Kelly comes here and runs some form of his offense here?
The problem I see isn't that it won't work, it's that you need to find the QB that can run it and stay upright... JMO
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Yeah the Pats got destroyed by the Giants that year, if you consider "destroyed" as David Tyree making a miracle catch to keep the Giants alive.
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
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Well, That kinda means you need a guy like Tebow (big, fast, strong and tough and big heart) but perhaps with more accuracy. Basically, a cross between him and RGIII?
A cross between Tebow and RGIII? Not only could he win you the super bowl, he could also protect Sarah Connor.
yebat' Putin
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The biggest concern to the whole thing, as I see it, is the durability of the QBs in a 16+ game season with the size and speed of NFL defenders... Look at RGIII he didn't finish 3 games this year because he was getting knocked around while Luck took every snap... sure it's just a one year sample but I don't think it's a coincidence. Luck ran when he had to, got first downs and got down or ran out of bounds...
I think it can work though, I saw the Redskins totally neutralize Demarcus Ware by not even trying to block him, running the read option right at him, freezing him, and then going whichever way he didn't go... However the more teams start to run it, the more defenses will learn to prepare for it...
That's how I view the entire thing.
(Yes, I went back and scanned the thread to see if I had anything to say about this 3 years ago. Nope. Guess I still viewed it the same as I do now. )
Do I feel it's a viable offense if it's run full-time? No.
Do I feel you can run components of the offense Part-time? Yes.
The Wildcat could be run as a change-up, but never as a full-time deal. The more teams ran it, the more defenses picked-up on it. Eventually, defenses will figure out how to better defend it, reducing it's effectiveness.
What I do believe is that the rise of spread-option components will mirror the Run-and-Shoot. The inherent, fatal flaw of the R&S was two-fold. First, it limited the type of personnel you could put on the field. Second and far more important was the fact that it led to the QB getting smacked far-too often.
In the NFL of twenty years ago, teams could win with a backup QB. In today's NFL, if you're marching out your #2 guy, you can forget going to the Super Bowl. It's such a QB-driven league that the dropoff is severe for the good one's. If you're going to allow your QB to go out there and run the ball all the time, it's just a matter of time before he gets put out of the game. That was the big scare with RG3 in college, and it happened to him in the pro's. It's a miracle that he isn't recovering from surgery to repair 2 ligaments in his knee in some rehab clinic a block away from Dr. James Andrews' office in Alabama. Those kinds of scenarios don't ever seem so bad...until it actually happens to a QB.
Back in the day, getting the QB hit was talked about as a big concern with the R&S, but nobody took it seriously...until Warren Moon got lit up in '92 and the Oilers had to bring in "Commander" Cody Carlson. That was the beginning of the end of the R&S, as the QB getting beaten up and the personnel issues led to it's demise as a full-time offense.
I believe that you can run components of the spread-option, but one day a marquee QB is going to have his career derailed, and that'll stop teams from taking the gamble. RG3 narrowly avoided that fate. If teams are smart, they'll back off, because what's going to happen is defensive coordinators are going to encourage defenders to lay the wood on QB's any chance they get because once they are out of the pocket, they are fair-game, even on run-fakes.
Buyer beware on the spread-option as a full-time offense.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Well, That kinda means you need a guy like Tebow (big, fast, strong and tough and big heart) but perhaps with more accuracy. Basically, a cross between him and RGIII?
A cross between Tebow and RGIII? Not only could he win you the super bowl, he could also protect Sarah Connor.
I'd be perfectly OK with that
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
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Hey I agree. There is a reason that the career life expectancy of a RB in the NFL is shorter than almost any other position... because taking full force shots 35-40 times a game wears you out and makes you susceptible to injury... Nobody wants their QB going through that.
My thoughts are that no offense remains it's original form for long.. the run gave way to more passing, the run and shoot, the west coast offense, the read option... there are remnants of all of them in the NFL and the coach that finds the best mix of it for the players he's got wins games...
The read option is not going away, it's going to be a part of every offense with a mobile running QB... people might as well get used to it... defensive coaches are going to learn to defend it better and offensive guys are going to learn to tweak it so they can use it and protect their QB at the same time...
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Then we have come full circle. Time to run a full house backfield. After all, many of todays modern coaches never schemed against it! Three backs would actually wear down todays jumbo linemen.
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I actually don't have a problem with good power football.. the problem with it is that you have to have the right personnel and to have those personnel, you are limiting yourself in the passing game... and if you get behind and you can't throw the ball effectively, you are in trouble... that's the only real problem I see in building a team around power football.
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Someone could work it out. RBs with good hands. Deep threat and a slot guy.
In all seriousness, I think it'd be great to show that set every now and then!
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Then we have come full circle.
Time to run a full house backfield. After all, many of todays modern coaches never schemed against it!
Three backs would actually wear down todays jumbo linemen.
I've actually seen Harbaugh run that this year.
Except instead of a second half-back like Parris, the Niners actually put 350-pound Leonard Davis back there. 
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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just checked since i'm back at work... had kuechly 14, david 15, and wagner 16.
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If we are talking Kelly though, we are also talking about the up-tempo game he runs and that would give us a huge advantage. No one else in the league runs it and thus their D's will be absolutely dead tired without their normal 40 seconds between plays (and remember, our D will play against it every day so conditioning should be better and they will still get their 40 seconds during games). Sure, part of what makes Kelly's offense successful is the spread/read option, but a big part is also the up-tempo pace that just wears teams down (and then they make mistakes/miss tackles). Richardson would run right through those DL by the 3Q.
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How many running QBs do you see in the bigs?
Not many, but you are thinking in todays terms.
Twenty-five years ago, how many basketball players played in the NBA who couldn't shoot the 17 footer?? Not many. Today they abound.
The point is that you can't think in terms of what was. You have to think out of the box and try to project what will be.
One other factor...as teams make the transition, that means the D has to get faster, so the players will get lighter, lessening the chance for hits.
But speed really isn't the only defense. The SEC has lots of speed and it doesn't do much to stop it.
There was a time in the NFL where you had to have a Bronco Nigurski running the ball. Nobody saw a league where you would throw the ball 30 times a game.
The game evolved. It will again.
You've been kinda predicting this for a while. I honestly don't know if it's something that will work as a full time offensive plan, but as part of an overall package, I don't know why it can't.
Thanks.
It really wasn't predicting as much as it was noticing trends and knowing it more or less had to move that way.
More and more of these guys enter every year and fewer and fewer Luck's can be found.
As I said then: NFL teams are going to have to play someone at QB. If spread guys are all you can find, you best coach it or stick a guy in a system he can't run.
My vote says coach it.
You are welcome.,. Credit where credit is due.
I believe at the time you were mostly referring to Tebow. I've heard (read) on here that one thing that will happen is that you better have more than one QB that can run the system on your team because the chances increase that your starter will go down for some game(s).
Well, That kinda means you need a guy like Tebow (big, fast, strong and tough and big heart) but perhaps with more accuracy. Basically, a cross between him and RGIII?
Who's out there like that that we can get?
We can't use Weeden in that role,, McCoy will get injured to easy, Thad Lewis?
Who else is available or might be gettable for us if a Kelly comes here and runs some form of his offense here?
The problem I see isn't that it won't work, it's that you need to find the QB that can run it and stay upright... JMO
Why are so many people automatically assuming that if Chip is the coach that means a new QB? Why do we think it can't be run with Weeden? Sure I don't see him running the read option but there are many things about the offense Weeden can do. Are you all forgetting he ran a version of the spread in college. I would expect us to run something very similar to what NE is running with Brady. The read option is really just a small portion of what Oregon runs. They said there are over 200 plays in the play book. Do you really think that's 200 different ways to run the option?
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I'm not crazy about Kelly,but I chuckle over the fears about his zone read option.
It's one play,well more precisely it's two plays,left or right.And in some form or another it's been around forever.
Bud Wilkerson killed people with the Q option back in 50's.Then came the midline,and the Veer,a true triple opion.I'd be willing to bet that every team that runs the spread has smoe form of option built in.
option attacks fade in and out of fashion as often as short skirts,tho not nearly as enjoyable to stare at.
The real reason I don't want Kelly.I have cousins in Neb that are Kellys.They're nothing but a bunch of drunken hooligans,alot of fun to hang with,just not very productive.He might be related.
Indecision may,or maynot,be my problem
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they went undefeated 1 years...with a middle of the pack d and got destroyed in the Super Bowl by a giants team with a Top D with a killer 4 man rush....and a running game...
If by "destroyed" you mean that Brady completed over 60% of his passes for over 260 yards and a TD, Wes Welker had over 100 yards receiving, they only gave up 17 points and they lost by 3 points on a last second touchdown that was set up by a 35 yard circus catch play that Manning isn't going to get off and Tyree isn't going to catch 99 times out of a hundred... then yea, they got destroyed.
Lets see here
In Super Bowl XLII against the Giants, that pass happy NE O only scored 14 points the whole game mind you they were #1 in the league in Yards per game, and passing yards per game..went 16-0 and they were ranked #1 in scoring averaging 38.6 points per game.....against the Giants in the Super Bowl they got destroyed...the Giants shut them down....with a good pass rush(that renders a pass happy spread useless) and they lost.
in 2011 in Super Bowl XLVI the Patriots again averaged 32.1 points per game and the Giants again with a good pass rush shut them down the Pats only managed a measley 17 points...again the Giants D destroyed them in both of those games.
Brady was harrased every snap in both of those games....The giants did destroy them because twice they shut down the top O in the league....So since Bellichik runs a good part of Kelley's O...and the Giants have shut it down twice in the biggst game of the year, the Blueprint is out on how to stop it....
Until the Patriots get back to having a solid ground game and D like they had back in their 3 SB wins that O is not going to win them another....you may by luck get to the dance with that O...but the giants have proved D wins championships and the Giants D shut them down and was a major factor why they won both of those contests.
so the giants holding a 30+ points per game O to 2 TD in my book is destroying that O
any team that has a good pass rush ala a healthy Steelers/Ravens/Giants and a few other teams will eat Kelly's O for breakfast in the NFL.....
im sorry but believe you have to have balance...I like Whisenhunt because he will run the ball and he won't abandon it....he also has a solid passing game of his own but he does run the ball and you have to be able to run the ball to win in the NFL....even Peyton Manning has always had a good running game, same with Eli and other great QB....im not sold on the spread.
I saw the Run and Shoot fail in the NFL, and the spread is the run and shoot with a few wrinkles and NFL D-Coordinators will shut it down quickly.....the only Run and Shoot team that was viable back in the day was the Houston Oilers, but not only did they have Warren Moon, but they had top notch receivers like Ernest Givens, Haywood Jefferies, Drew Hill, and Lorenzo White...they had a stinking All-Star cast that in terms of pure talent and FA now in the NFL you will never have that much talent on a team again in this era....
let some other team take the plunge with Kelly....he will be out of the NFL in 3 years....because NFL D-Coordinators are just going to being the heat...the spread has already been stopped before when it was called The Run and Shoot...
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