DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Winslow thought about asking for a trade/SUSPENDED FOR 1 GAME

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This staff issue should have come to light immediately. KW2 has every right to be pissed about it and Savage should kiss his ass over it.

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So Phil should kiss KW2"s ass because he caught staff at home, in his car, at the movies, at a reasturant, in church, at the grocery store, or at a buddies house Nobody and I mean NOBODY knows where he got it from, yet your willing to ASSUME he got it at work

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This is a guy who is frustrated. He pours his heart and soul out on the field and can't even get a phone call from Savage. The thing is, he's not the first... Bentley had the exact same gripe and Jurevicius didn't get one either. Why does everyone excuse Savage in this whole mess?

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The fact that Savage didn't call Bentley or JJ (as far as we know) lends credence to him not calling Winslow. If he never does it for anyone else, why should he start now?

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How many of us average Joes would get a call from our GM''s at work if we spent three days in the hospital? Very, very few IMO, why should KW2 be any different.

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He should know that players he preaches a "family" environment to want to see him back up his smooth talk with action. Heck, even if he doesn't believe in small acts of kindness to his players, it's at least good business. From most accounts, Savage is a good guy... why that doesn't roll over when his players are sick, I don't know.

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ya .. your right .. he didn't back that up when KW played Evel Kneviel .. Opie forgot all about "family" .. I mean he could have re-couped all but one year of his SB and he could have not paid him another penny ... instead he re-negotiated and paid him a HELL OF ALOT OF MONEY to sit on his ass for a year .. then play at about 70% for a year .. the ... .. what a jerk ..

someone should be kissing someones ass here and thanking there lucky stars ... and someone forgot what family truely is ... and it sure as all hell ain't Opie ...

this is just another in a long line of DUMB ASS DECISIONS by the Primma Donna .. yet U stick up for him like some groupie even though everything that has happend in the past goes directly against your boy ...

like i said in my previous post .. the ignorance on here is just astounding ...

if the org's guilty of anything .. its being stupid enough to think that KW would for once do the right thing and not talk about the staph .. cause that really helped ... what i;m not really sure ... but thank god we had KW around to tell the truth and have the guts to speak up and make us aware of the situation ... I mean this wil be right up ther with Watergate and the Iran Contra Affair when its all said and done ....

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Bro this has nuttin to do with him not getting a phone call from opie and it has nuttin to do with him getting staph .... it has everything to do with the following in chronological order:

1. Him wanting his contract re-done and hiring the biggest a-hole in sports to do it ..

2. Us drafting his replacement ...

3. him not getting his new contract ..

4. us putting out feelers before the trade deadline ... i;ve heard it from multiple sources now ..

5. him wanting out of here to GET HIS NEW DEAL ...

the other stuff is just smoke and sumptin for him to hang his hat on and try and force his way out of here ..

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For an average Joe at an average company, no, there would be no call.

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So your saying you think KW2 is better than the average Joe Sorry to burst your bubble, but he is not. He plays football for a living. That does not make him better than any Dr, lawyer, fireman, cop, teacher, brick layer, or garbage man out there. It just means he makes more money.

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Sometimes I wonder if the fans in this city will ever embrace a superstar with a strong personality.

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Prior to this incident, EVERYONE had embraced Winslow, despite his shenanigans and Evil Kneivel stunt.

There's a big difference between having a strong personality and having a selfish one. In fact, the lockerroom is chock-full (chalk-full?) of nothing BUT strong personalities. That's where team-leaders come from. That isn't the same thing as what Winslow is.

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All of a sudden, he expresses frustration publicly and he's back to being an idiot in some people's minds.

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To say all he did was "express public frusteration" is like saying Secretariat was "just another plow-horse."

If all he did was express frusteration, this wouldn't be a story.

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Why does everyone excuse Savage in this whole mess?

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I think very few people have. Personally, I don't believe that most GM's in the league would have called him.

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There's a reason Winslow feels like a "piece of meat" to Savage... he is.

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I couldn't agree more Keep in mind that there's more at play here.

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Phil is a scout... he's not a general manager. Between the inner conflicts with Collins, the fact that Phil has admitted he's not that good with the business aspects of the franchise and the fact that he's clearly not considerate to his players, I think he's in over his head and probably more duplicitous than any of us realize.

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Funny. I think his business card says "general manager" but I could be mistaken

To envoke the name of "Collins" in all this is simply wasting space. It turned out that guy had no clue what he was doing, so Lerner canned his sorry ass. Suddenly, Collins being a dolt is Savage's fault?!?!?

Some GM's are better business people than football people. IMHO, the league has TOO MANY business people where we should have football people, which is why some organizations suck. In fact, from where I"m sitting, I think Savage has done a masterful job of massaging the salary cap so that we could acquire talent and not waste money on bad players. We did a magnificient job of handing out smart contracts, unlike someone who is a great business person but a not-so good football guy: Jerry Jones.

As far as not caring about his players, well, I won't excuse that if it's true, but it may just be company policy not to coddle players. If you do it for one guy, you have to do it for everyone, and that doesn't work.

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Regardless of whether or not he can block, he's the kind of player at TE that most teams would kill to have.

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Really? We offered him for trade and had no takers. If they'd "kill to have" him, they'd have offered us a great deal. Obviously, that didn't happen. In fact, teams wanted an old Tony Gonzalez, not a young, half-broken, immature Winslow. Part of that reason is because he can't block.

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He's definitely at fault for taking these issues public and deserves to be reprimanded in some way, but who is at fault for pushing him to the point where he felt his only out was to take this to the media?

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Ummmmm.........Kellen Winslow?

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If it hasn't become apparent already with the Bentley/Collins/Winslow situations, this organization is rotten to the core......

......The only way something like that can be changed is to gut the foundation and start fresh and, if that means letting Savage's head roll in addition to cleaning out the coaching staff, then so be it.

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I couldn't disagree more with that statement. I mean EMPHATICALLY I couldn't disagree more.

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The fact that Savage didn't call Bentley or JJ (as far as we know) lends credence to him not calling Winslow. If he never does it for anyone else, why should he start now?

Now, I'm not saying Savage was right or wrong. Just throwing that out there.

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If the Winslowless Browns offense comes out this week and have a huge offensive game, would anyone like to see Winslow moved into a Joe J type role when he returns from his suspension. I would love to keep Heiden at tight end, and Winslow in the slot would be amazing until Joe J comes back...if he comes back. I think that would give us a more complete offense. JMO...

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I meant where did it occur this time..in the knee or in a cut..

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I couldn't disagree more with that statement. I mean EMPHATICALLY I couldn't disagree more.

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Why, because I think it poor form to not call people when they are in the hospital??


But then I suppose that is your form.

Take a hike.....

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I know how that feels Peen.

Thanks again BTW. I don't think I'll ever forget that!

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Why is that? The Collins thing has nothing to do with Collins' ability (I hated Collins), it has everything to do with the fact that they couldn't co-exist because Collins' realized Savage's short comings running the business aspect and wanted to bring in help.

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As I recall, it was a power-play designed to wrest control away from Savage, thus undermining his position within the company. I'd have to dust off memories to verify all that, so I'll leave it at that.

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He keeps everything way too tight within the organization, is incredibly secretive and when something comes out, he lays down the law without hesitation.

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Here's where I disagree.

Savage has actually shown to be too LOOSE with information. There's been time when he's talked too much and said a couple of things he shouldn't have before.

As for "laying down the law without hesitation" correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this the first player he's suspended in a couple of years? If there are examples that I'm not aware of, I'd like to be updated.

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If you look at how he runs this organization, he tends to reward his favorites as well and punish those that have fallen out of favor.

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How is that different than any other GM?

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You say he's intelligent with the cap space, but how intelligent is giving extensions left and right to guys after one good year (like Romeo and DA),

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I'd say I don't agree at all with the extension for RAC (but I've not exactly been quiet on that topic, hehehe). As for Anderson, what were the alternatives? Let him walk in free agency, or tag him.

It's worth repeating that the new contract for Anderson was essentially a one OR two year deal, no more. The trade-off is that by keeping Quinn on the bench, Anderson's contract is extremely viable. That isn't to say he WANTS to keep Quinn on the bench based on finances, but rather to show that the money for Anderson wasn't exhorborant, nor does it handicap us going into the future. In fact, once the details of the contract finally came out, Savage was given applause by everyone around the league and the media for how he orchestrated that deal.

It's not like Anderson was given a $40 million dollar deal that locks him to the team for five years. It's a masterful contract.

I'd also point out the wisdom of giving Quinn a contract based on playing time. A pretty smooth move if you ask me.

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Look at the great teams in the NFL. The Patriots lose Brady, could have fallen to .500 with a loss last week and yet, you don't see them melting down. They remain poised, in control, destroyed the Broncos, and are now 4-2.

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We could go on about this one for days, hehe. Teams that are at home on Monday night usually win. They destroyed the Broncos, we destroyed the Super Bowl champs, and previously undefeated Giants.

The Pats have played Miami, San Fran, and KC, and the Bronco's have lost 3 of 4, including a loss to the Chiefs.

The only patsy we played was the Bungles.

Then there's the fact that many of the players which are on that team were great players before Savage had a chance to rebuild this team. Remember, instead of taking guys like Richard Seymore, Butch Davis took Gerrard Warren. I know...I know. You can give examples of where Savage has screwed up, and to that end, I agree with you. In my "grading Phil Savage" thread I was very candid of where he screwed the pooch, especially with guys like Frye, Wilson, and apparently Wimbley. However, no GM gets them all correct.

To summarize, yes, this is year 4 of a 5 year plan. We agree on that. As a result, I think you have to wait to see how year 5 plays out before burying Savage.

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The transition from Cowher to Tomlin was nearly seamless and the attitude is still hard nosed and tough because the Steelers (ugh) have that ingrained in their culture.

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We weren't lucky enough to have Cowher, were we

You've used examples of teams that have continuity, but continuity doesn't happen unless you've had a successful team going back several seasons. The Steelers and Pats were battling for the Super Bowl while Butch Davis was drafting and running us into the ground. Savage has had to try and build this from the ground up.

BIG difference.

Spec, I don't give Savage a free pass like some do (but clearly not all). He's made good moves (Stein, Lewis, Shaffer, Fraley, Thomas, Rogers, Droughns) he's made bad moves (Wimbley, Wilson, Frye) he's had some unlucky moves (Baxter, Bentley) and he's got some moves that are as yet to be determined (Quinn, Rucker, Wright, Pool) but in the end, he's been forced to rebuild totally from the ground up. We can go to each successful GM in the league and the map would look pretty much like what Savage has done. REAL bums like Millen were blowed up (thanks Emmitt Smith) and shown the door. The GM's of those successful franchises had a pretty good start, a start that Savage didn't get.

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It's time for him and everyone else involved to be called out on what this organization is RIGHT NOW.

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I think it's still too early to make that call. If it's truly a 5-year plan, which you acknowledge, we can't draw a final judgement until next year.

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I don't know about you, but after watching our team unravel after a few losses this year, I don't have the patience for Year 5 of a failure of a 5 year plan.

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We aren't unravelling. There's a difference between struggling with issues and unravelling.

You believe that Winslow is simply one problem indicitive of more problems. Ok, I get that. I believe Winslow is a problem-child that Savage is handling well, considering he wasn't a player Savage brought to the organization, but rather has had to deal with. If Edwards continues to act up, he'll be on Savages hands. Every organization has a Kellen Winslow. Suggs of the Rats just called for the benching of Flacco and wants Troy Smith inserted into the lineup Anquan Boldin has been hammering the Cards because he wanted a new contract. Both teams are doing ok right now.

We're a team that's struggling right now. We didn't get a good start in preseason, and that's spilled over to the regular season. Remember, even before the season started, many of us (perhaps even you) stated that we could be a team that is just as good or even better than last year, yet go 7-9, 8-8, or 9-7.

To me, it's not as simple as saying the entire organization is screwed from top to bottom. We're not as bad as our record indicates, just as we weren't as good as our record indicated last year. I'm on the fence with SAvage, but don't think he's a bum. The only bum IMHO is Crennel, who was more Lerner than it was Savage. Keep that in mind.

It's very easy to become impatient and want change. I think we're close to needing change, but to restart from the GM on down? Nah man, we're not there yet.

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Life has taught me that the ones who come in talking the loudest, calling people names, are usually the ones who know the least.

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Life is still teaching me lessons. I hope I never get too old to learn...................

And life has also taught me that lesson you speak of my friend.

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It's very easy to become impatient and want change. I think we're close to needing change, but to restart from the GM on down? Nah man, we're not there yet.

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But a few on here feel they have all the answers and think they know it all when in fact, they know very little.

Life has taught me that the ones who come in talking the loudest, calling people names, are usually the ones who know the least.

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This is the first suspension I can recall Savage or anyone else imposing in a long time.

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Prior to this incident, EVERYONE had embraced Winslow, despite his shenanigans and Evil Kneivel stunt.

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I beg to differ on this statement...and I have the virtual scars to prove it

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being a Coach is more than your former coordinator position, its about attitude, interpersonal skills and motivation tactics

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On this much we agree upon. The rest of it?

I wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole!

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J/C

I personally think "IF" the Organization told Winslow not to reveal his illness and may have possibly threatened suspension or other actiosn to deter him from doing so is reprehensible.

I said it before, Savage is over his head. We need a real Coporate CEO here to handle the business of this franchise full time. Microsoft Co-Founder(Former CEO) buys the Seahawks in 97 and then went from suck to in the super Bowl in a few years.

Allen is almost as smart as Bill Gates, The Browns need to Hire a high up Microsoft Executive, like Steve Ballmer(who we probably couldn't get), but I do think we would have a good chance of getting Kevin Turner - Cheif Officer of Microsoft...this guy was a former CEO of Sam's Club, and a high level executive for Wal-mart before Joining Microsoft as Bill Gates and Ballmer's right hand man

This guy is right up there with Ballmer and Im sure he has learned alot.

We need to grab Kevin Turner!

Lerner needs to call him up, and Offer him the CEO-President of the Browns and give him 10% Owner ship of the Franchise...this will be the guy Savage Answers to...Savage has no clue how to run a business, a successful football franchise is one who makes smart business decisions, look at the Steelers, they don't throw away millions a year on bumms like we do. Kevin Turner will be the guy that will be her e"every day" and will watch the Franchise for Lerner and advise Lerner on the best courses of action to take.

Savage is in way over his head, and him being mad over this is just another thing that shows me the Browns are simply falling apart. Savage should have just ignored it, and said "Kellen was just mad I talked to him" and been done with it.

Savage has now created "discontent" in the Lockeroom, you could clearly tell that RAc was not happy with nor did he agree with the suspension...Rac was clearly aggitated in his interview talking about it...RAC said he is a "good kid" I don't think RAC thought it warranted a suspension, but probably just a fine....Savage it seems is starting to run things in the ground here.

Savage hans't made any "jaw breaking" decisions here, lets see:

1. He drafted a receiver who has the drops and only 1 good season since he has been here, and he will never do that again - Edwards

2. He drafted a Bust in Wimbely, trading with our hated rival Baltimore..ya never give your division rival the player they want, you trade with someone else, even if ya get less, just to screw your division opponent out of the guy they want. you weaken a rival that way.

3. Reached on Dqwell Jackson in the draft because Ryans got snagged

4. Botched on the Perkins and Wilson picks.

5. commited to Anderson being the starter, after he single handily cost us a playoff berth last year against the hapless Bengals..a game he has yet to recover from and never will.

7. Shipped Antonio Bryant out of here after a 1,000 yard campaign, he was the best route runner on this team and second best hands to Winslow, Edwards has more drops in 5 games then Bryant had that entire freaking year!

8. Got rid of our best safety since the Return in Brian Russel, who want to stay for a reasonable price, the only guy we have had back there that will lay the wood on someone...see Chad Johnson's busted face.

if anything Savage should be fired along with Romoe...how many playoffs have we played? 1 winning season? Atleast butch DAvis got us into the playoffs and a real chance of winning...if not for Northcutt dropping a pass...Davis has a playoff win...That playoff game was not Davis fault, that was on Northcutt..he was wide open, not a guy withtin 5 yards..he makes that catch...we win....I think Davis did more for us than Savage has in half the time..least we got into the playoffs with Butch Davis...RAC and Opie can't even gets us into the postseason.

isn't it funny...When Tucker is hurt, we struggle.
When Heiden is hurt, we struggle

Heiden, Tucker, and Winslow are all Butch Davis Guys...oh wait, their also 3 of our best players, the only pick Savage got Right was Thomas, and that was a no brainer in that spot, had he choose anyone else he would be brain dead

This franchise just needs a clean up in the Front office clean them all out

Hire Turner...being a Coach is more than your former coordinator position, its about attitude, interpersonal skills and motivation tactics which phil and romeo have neither...Look at Mike Tomlin, he was a DB backs coach only 2 maybe 3 years and goes to the Steelers and motivates..why? its all about his attitude and commitment

I know Turner would make the right hiring decisions, he would provbably take advice From Ballmer and Gates(who advised Allen to hire Holmgren and others) which lead to them going from Zero's to the Big dance in a few years

take it for what you wil...Savage has done nothing great here, and his handling of the Winslow situation should get him canned...he is personifying a franchise in disarayy not only in the lockeroom, but in the front office which is bad for business...we look like were falling apart.

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