DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Browns should release Disruptive Winslow (article)

IMO anything 3rd round and up would be a bargain. Disruption, bad knees, big mouth add up to being shown the door. That's my hard line attitude about it.

On the flip side, I personally believe that K2 is scared for his future. That said, you do not throw your organization under the bus. He jumped onto a slippery slope and I don't see anything keeping him from sliding all the way down and out the door unless he recovers, returns, keeps his mouth shut and performs with Pro Bowl ability. I just don't think he'll be able to do it because he's scared and scared people tend to act irrationally.

I like him, I'm sorry to see this happening.

Also....

The other point that I want to make....that I made in the unpopular LCB issue is that on one side you have management operating from their Ivory Tower and you have the player....who has spent plenty of time in the hospital. Sometimes with life threatening illness.

Put yourself in the player's shoes for a moment. You have a guy who doesn't bother to even call you while you're in the hospital with a staph infection possibly contracted on team grounds. You have some "reportedly" major issues you are dealing with sitting there in the hospital bed.

Then they ask you to cover up the fact that you have a staph infection because of all of the media attention around the issue. And here you have the sixth such infection...that has ended the career of LCB and probably JJ as well as issues with BE, Ben Taylor and Brian Russell.

Then you come out with the information because your "cahones" have litterally been dragged through the mud with nary a peep from the front office.

I can't help it. I see the player side on this and I did with LCB as well.

Agreed. I hope more information comes to light. That may change my stance on this and the LCB issue.

We shall see.

Sure. Let's just release another one of our 1st round picks.
save it for draft day.

Winslow doesn't want to be here? Oh well, I suppose his agent better find a pretty sweet trade of his career is over. I'm in no mood for this crap. We all know he only has another year of two in the tank, so trading him makes sense even though I hate to lose him.

I need to say a few things, then I am going back to my just reading and not posting status....

I am both amazed and appalled at the dissatisfaction with the organizations decision on Winslow. Notice I said "organization." Winslow is not bigger than the Browns as a team, and the fact that he spoke the way he did about the Browns as a whole was immediate grounds for suspension IMO.

For those of us that are managers (as I am) or work for managers that we are required to answer to, this was an absolute slap in the face. As a leader, you cannot ever accept this type of behavior from someone that is a part of your team. It is insubordination at its finest.

Winslow is a great player and a hard worker, there is no disputing that, however the fact that he was immature enough to discuss his frustrations with the national media instead of the people that matter speaks volumes IMO. You absolutely cannot tolerate that type of behavior as a leader and someone that is expected to set expectations and lead a team to emulate the character and vision that your business desires. Winslow was completely out of line and totally disrespected the "head honchos" so to speak. That is inexcusable.

For those that think the punishment was unjust, are you speaking from the point of view of KW2, or from a fans point of view that wants to just win games?

My bet is on the latter.

that pretty much sums up how i feel about it, kash.

i wouldn't bet on kellen winning his appeal either.

hopefully this will be the last locker room mutiny we see this year. sucks that one of my favorite players was the guy doing this. i really had thought all the adversity he went through grounded him a bit. i'll be pretty disgusted if this turns in to a season long grudge.

I'm with Held on this one. Because of past circumstances (regarding the staph issues) and Kellen's outstanding play, hurt or healthy, I believe he deserves the benefit of the doubt.

Phil Savage has ridden his high horse too many times in the past to make me totally disbelieve KW's version of events. Future revelations may change my mind but at this point I tend to side with the player in this incident.

I also tend to disregard statements that the players didn't come to Winslow's defense. For one thing, a guy just got suspended for a week without pay for essentially telling the truth. So you expect another player to jump up and volunteer his paycheck by doing the same thing. I'd be amazed if anyone (players) said anything pro or con about this until after the season.

And once again I'll state my opinion that anyone who thinks the team will be better without Kellen Winslow isn't playing with a full deck. And that includes Pat M., who I usually agree with. He's so far off base on this one that a 5 year old could pick him off.

I agree. Players aren't really in a position to get very vocal no matter where they stand on the matter.

j/c

wow pat sure has been pretty worthless lately, but really....he fits in with the rest of the cleveland media..horrid...i swear we have some of the worst beat writers in the country...to think his editor allowed this drivel to be published. was winslow wrong...absitively, should he have been suspended, yep, should we release one of our best players and the key to getting some extra picks in the offseason..um no...why is that so hard to see..pat screwed the pooch on this one

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I'm with Held on this one. Because of past circumstances (regarding the staph issues) and Kellen's outstanding play, hurt or healthy, I believe he deserves the benefit of the doubt.

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He doesn't deserve jack until he tells the whole story. We don't know the details of the infection. Due to HIPPAA, we're only allowed to know what Winslow wants us to know. He agreed to keep quiet on this matter then changed his mind without informing management. His hiding information is a big red flag.

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Phil Savage has ridden his high horse too many times in the past to make me totally disbelieve KW's version of events. Future revelations may change my mind but at this point I tend to side with the player in this incident.

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Phil Savage also took good care of KW after the bike fiasco, so his argument of being treated like a piece of meat is a crock. Did he want a call from everybody in the organization?

That said, I hope this thing sorts itself out and he contributes for another season or two. With Anderson's inaccuracy we need somebody that can catch anything thrown in his vicinity.

Some people just don't get it. KW2 has done this many times, just not to the press. Peen said the players can't speak out. Actually, in this case, what they're saying publicly is what they're saying privately. The players that I have heard from/about, AGREE WITH SAVAGE. That is all I need to konw about the situation, even if I didn't have an inside source. Does anyone REALLY believe that the players would privately back Savage on this if he were trying to cover anything up and put them at risk by not knowing?

The misinformation that is going on around here is astounding. First, most of the staph infections couldn't have been contracted at the Browns facility. They were contracted during surgery. The Browns have done everything possible to ensure the safety of the players. KW2 contracted the staph infection DURING THE BYE WEEK. The players feel the Browns are doing what they can to combat the staph. All of this gets ignored because a guy can catch the ball so he must be trustworthy and honest.

what did u expect ... look at the guys moaning the loudest ... the usual cast of MeNZas ...

Peenie ... Hel .. Spec ... Otto .... Ammo ..

look at that group ... how much can u realistically expect??? ...

Sounds like what I've been saying. Bad move on Phil's part.

If all the players started making comments we would have to forfiet the rest of the season to save Phil's ego!

CoachB, Diam...

Phil is a better than average, sometimes great GM IMHO. But just like everyone else in the world, he screws up once and a while. This time is one of those.

You don't run one of your most talented players through the meat grinder because he stepped on your toes. Why?

At the end of the day, all of their jobs - Players - Coaches - Management - even the owner to some extent rely heavily on the contribution of the fans. If you are not favorable to the fans, you start to lose the fan base which directly translates to money.

I think this move pissed off a lot more fans than it made happy. I saw one comparison to Chad Johnson... KW2 is no OchoCinco. He blew up, he mouthed off, so what?

You suspend him and fine or take $240K from him in what seems to be an attempt to make sure no other players spout off about the STAPH INFECTION CRISIS IN CLEVELAND!

This OVER reaction stems from either embarassment or ego. Any number of other disciplinary actions could have been taken, why so harsh Phil?

Oh, yeah that's right... you got fronted out as the culpret! You got villianized! I'd like to know how that felt. Maybe I should call LCB?

These Players are who I pay to watch not Phil, not Romeo, not Randy... so when you run off everyone with a backbone and all you have is jellyfish and DA, I won't be spending my money with ya!

I love ya Phil, but at the moment YOU SUCK!

Dude, you are missing the boat by so much that you've fallen into the Sea of Having No Clue.

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This OVER reaction stems from either embarassment or ego.

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It's embarassment. He knows after the third staph infection it became a problem with Free Agents.

Now it's gotten to the point where...HE IS ACTIVELY TRYING TO COVER IT UP!!!!

I'm embarassed to be a Browns fan with this response from leadership.

The lugnuts of this organization are loose....it's only a matter of time till the wheels fall off. The sooner the better IMO. Time to start again. This sucks.

I don't think Savage sucks at all. How a guy like Diam can take my comments about it being foolish to release Winslow now as the article suggests and think I am moaning about Savage is beyond me....but then, I quit trying to figure out that neonate a long time ago.

Cleveland Browns accuse Kellen Winslow of verbally abusing public relations official after game against Washington Redskins
by Mary Kay Cabot
Friday October 24, 2008, 7:54 PM



BEREA -- In a copy of Kellen Winslow's suspension letter obtained by The Plain Dealer, it's revealed Winslow was not only suspended by the Browns for statements they felt were disparaging to the club, but also for what the team described as "profane verbal abuse of a Club's public relations member in the locker room" following the game at Washington.

While Winslow was sitting at his locker last Sunday preparing to be interviewed, he asked director of communications Amy Palcic to leave so he could speak to a reporter. It was clear he wanted to speak his mind without a member of the public relations staff listening. It's common practice for one of them to be there when big-name players such as Winslow and Braylon Edwards are interviewed.

Neither Winslow nor Palcic raised their voices during the exchange, which went like this, according to The Plain Dealer's audiotape. (see link for audio link)


Winslow: "Amy, I'm good. Can you please stop playing big sis and leave? Seeing what I'm going to say and sh--?"

Palcic, who was standing a few feet away, remained where she was.

Winslow: "Um, Amy, can you please leave?"

Palcic: "Talk if you want to talk."

Winslow: "What?"

Palcic: "Talk. I'm not going to cut you off."

Winslow then answered questions for about four minutes, telling reporters he was upset with General Manager Phil Savage for not calling him while he was in the Cleveland Clinic with a staph infection and that he felt like "a piece of meat." He also admitted during that portion of the interview that he thought about asking to be traded before last week's deadline and informed Savage.

Palcic attempted to end the session midway through, but Winslow continued. Then, in the middle of a question about his contract, Winslow was beckoned by running back Jamal Lewis. Winslow told him: "I'm good. Let me get one more." But Lewis persisted and Winslow walked away and joined him.

Palcic declined to comment Friday, but Browns spokesman Bill Bonsiewicz, when asked if another exchange took place with a member of the PR staff, said, "Yes, I was made aware of another exchange, but due to the fact there's a pending grievance, I'd prefer not to comment beyond that."

After Winslow spent about 10 minutes away from his locker, he returned, sat back down and spoke to a reporter for a few minutes. Then he motioned The Plain Dealer over for a one-on-one interview. During that session, Winslow revealed his previously undisclosed illness was a staph infection and said "there's obviously a problem [with staph] and we have to fix it."

"Just look at the history around here. It's unfortunate, because it happens time and time again," Winslow said.

During that interview, Edwards, who was a few lockers away, waved his arms back and forth at Winslow to try to get him to stop talking. Winslow gave him the thumbs up and said he was good. Another member of the Browns PR staff, Reagan Berube, listened in. When Winslow finished, the locker room period was over.

In the suspension letter, which was on Browns letterhead, hand-delivered to Winslow and signed only by coach Romeo Crennel, it says "you made public statements that were inappropriate, inaccurate, portrayed the Club in a false light, and diminished the Club's reputation. In addition, you engaged in profane verbal abuse of a Club's public relations member in the locker room following the Redskins game."

It tells Winslow his actions "significantly disrupted and adversely affected the Cleveland Browns team and organization, and cannot be tolerated."

Winslow has appealed his suspension for Sunday's game in Jacksonville and the hearing is set for Tuesday in Cleveland in front of arbitrator Rosemary Townley. Winslow's attorney, Adam Kaiser, said he insisted the hearing take place Friday or today so Winslow would be eligible to play in the game if it was overturned.

Because Kaiser requested the hearing be expedited, the arbitrator had seven days in which to hear it and chose Tuesday, according to NFL spokesman Greg Aiello. If Winslow loses the appeal, he will forfeit his $235,294 game check. If he wins, he will recoup the money. The two sides can also agree on a settlement beforehand.

Also, in response to Savage's remarks in an interview on WTAM AM/1100 on Thursday regarding Winslow's illness, a source with knowledge of the situation said: "It's just staph. It was a bad staph infection."

Savage said during the interview: "Due to the nature of this particular situation, it seemed that the people involved wouldn't want it out there. So our hands are tied in certain situations. And it was all agreed upon. It's a nonfootball illness. It occurred during the bye week."

web page

Grievance case of Cleveland Browns tight end Kellen Winslow to be heard Tuesday
Friday, October 24, 2008
Tony Grossi
Plain Dealer Reporter

Kellen Winslow's appeal of his one-game suspension will be heard Tuesday, assuring the Browns tight end will miss Sunday's game in Jacksonville.

Coach Romeo Crennel said that representatives of the NFL Management Council were scheduled to arrive Thursday in Berea to conduct interviews with representatives for Winslow and those of the Browns.

The grievance, which seeks to recoup Winslow's game check of $235,294, will be heard in front of Rosemary Townley, an arbitrator in the New York City area who is one of four arbitrators who decides noninjury grievances of NFL players.

According to the NFL collective bargaining agreement, Townley must issue a decision within five days of the hearing. Her decision is final.

Whether Townley's ruling puts an end to the controversy surrounding Winslow and General Manager Phil Savage's disciplinary action is unknown.

This case escalated Tuesday when both sides issued written statements to explain themselves.

On Thursday, both sides used the radio airwaves to throw fuel on the fire, Savage commenting on his weekly appearance on WTAM and agent Drew Rosenhaus, weighing in for the first time on his own weekly appearance on WQAM in Miami.

Savage gave a spirited defense of himself and why he came down hard on Winslow for saying, among other things, the team purposely kept his staph infection a secret.

Savage said that after the game at FedEx Field, Winslow approached hia and had a conversation that wasn't heated. He said it was uncomfortable that Winslow spoke with him while still in uniform and that Winslow "expressed disappointment," but that he was respectful and they shook hands afterward.

"The problem was that without giving us any opportunity to address his concerns, he went public with those remarks that we felt are inappropriate and disparaged the team," Savage said.

"After everything all of us have been through since 2005, the comments really called into question the integrity of our medical staff and the organization as a whole. And to compromise that trust after the Browns had stood by Kellen through the motorcycle episode [in May 2005] and knowing without question that we had done everything in our power to combat this staph infection problem.

"It just showed a lack of professional restraint that every person in that building, as a member of the team . . . the Browns are bigger than one person, bigger than Randy Lerner, bigger than Romeo Crennel, bigger than me and bigger than any player on this team. That's the bottom line."

At the end of what essentially was a soliloquy, Savage took a question and his answer shed some light on what may lie beneath the surface of the facts as so far made public.

Savage was asked about Winslow's claim that the team wanted to keep his staph infection quiet and not inform teammates.

Savage responded, "From a legal standpoint . . . HIPAA [Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act] laws . . . we can't even reveal the nature of someone's illness without their approval. Due to the nature of this particular situation, it seemed that the people involved wouldn't want it out there. So our hands are tied in certain situations. And it was all agreed upon. It's a nonfootball illness. It occurred during the bye week."

Winslow himself has not commented on how, where or when he contracted staph.

On the surface, Savage's statement appears to differentiate Winslow's "illness" from the additional fact that he did have staph. The point was not followed up on the WTAM appearance.

Savage has been unavailable for comment other than his written statement and his radio show.

Meanwhile, on his radio appearance in Miami, Rosenhaus said neither he nor the NFL Players Association agrees with the Browns' decision.

"In general, I believe suspending a player should be conduct very detrimental, very serious, something where there's been a pattern where a player has not followed notice and warnings, things of that nature," Rosenhaus said. "We'll see what the outcome is."

Both Savage and Rosenhaus touched on the topic of Winslow's future with the Browns after this controversy is resolved, and both pointed to Winslow's written statement that he wants to be a Brown for "a very long time."

Asked if Winslow's relationship with the Browns has been severed, Rosenhaus said, "I would just say Kellen came out with a statement this week in which he said he is going to come back when this is resolved, work extremely hard and always be the kind of professional player that he has been for the Browns and that he's looking forward to having a long career with the Browns, so I'm going to back up Kellen's statement.

Savage said, "If he's willing to do the things he said publicly he's willing to do . . . be a productive member of the team . . . certainly we'll welcome him back."

To reach this Plain Dealer reporter:

tgrossi@plaind.com, 216-999-4670

Interesting reads.

Profane verbal abuse?? That seems like a stretch based on what was printed here. The S word was used, but that would be pretty hard to turn into verbal abuse since it didn't sound like it was directed at the PR person.

I know I would find it annoying if I had to have the PR person standing by listening to every word I said.

In the second article, the Savage statement about not wanting to release the information does make it sound more a situation the team wouldn't want the information about staph released than would the player. Much of that statement was well rehearsed with coaching from the legal department.

I guess the question is where was the infection located?? If some of the rumors we heard are true, then I understand why Winnie or the team might want to be quiet about the matter.

Has the location of the infection been released and I just missed it??

Either way, there looks to be a mishandling of the situation with enough to spread on both sides of the table.

Too bad.

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Profane verbal abuse?? That seems like a stretch based on what was printed here. The S word was used, but that would be pretty hard to turn into verbal abuse since it didn't sound like it was directed at the PR person.

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The audio is included on the web page linked after the article...you can't hear the questions asked but you can hear Kellen's responses.

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I know I would find it annoying if I had to have the PR person standing by listening to every word I said.

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He's an employee...if they (employer) wish to have a staff member there during interviews that's up to them. (I know you know this, but not sure where you were coming from)

I'm just gonna say one thing ......

Isn't it ironic that our best game of the season came with "Mr.All Universe" sidelined?

THIS!

this guy has just been trying to tweek local browns fans for the past few months. Solid writing isnt getting him any recognition, because he is not a very good writer, so he makes these outrageous statements to get a rise out of the fans...any press is good press. remember his article on switching to rooting for the steelers?

I just listened to the audio...again...I don't hear anything that sounds like verbal abuse against another team employee... thinking I might have heard anger, sarcasm, or some other demeaning way of asking her to leave.

I did hear Winnie sound like a pity seeker....but that's another story.

As to my other comment...I don't know that I was going anywhere with it....simply that I would find it annoying to have a CD hovering over every word I said.

I know the deal with Couch is a good example of why you might want to do that, and maybe that is why they did it here.

I think his teammates knew what was going on. Winnie had to communicate some of those feelings to some of them prior to this interview....I would assume so at any rate. I think they knew he might spill some things they knew wouldn't play well with the brass....be it the right reasons or the wrong reasons.

Don't be shocked to see our second best game this week.

Maybe so....but lets be real here.

I don't think having Winslow on the field all of a sudden makes the line block worse, the QB throw bad passes, or other receivers all of a sudden look like they had both of their thumbs removed a week ago.

JMO

Team First!

He plays for... His opportunities are from...

Cleveland Browns not Cleveland Kellens

We did just fine without him against the Giants, put his ass on IR or let him ride the pine the rest of the season and move on. He's just a prima donna and those we don't need. We stayed behind him all the way through his motorcycle accident incident and this is how he repays team and management loyalty? Screw him and the silver football stuck up his butt.

That is only one purpose of them being there. The other is for verification if a player is misquoted. They are there to PROTECT the player.

If you have facts you'd like to disclose then disclose them. Playing the "you will see a few more things come out in the future" card is a little annyoning.

Back to KW2. Is there a chance that it's frustrating to spend more than 48 hours in a hospital for a situation that he perceives is the teams fault? After everything he's been through and importantly to note, put himself through.

If I were him I would (explitive with an -ing) hate being in the hospital. To think that a staph issue was the reason...and it was the sixth "disclosed"...i feel like I have to use that word now...case then yes it would bother me to the point of extreme frustration.

KW2 is the touchstone of this team. He's the fire. Handling this as they are gives me pause as to their leadership ability. You handle this differently than Gerard Lawson spouting off. A one game, silly letter suspension...then floating that it's a money issue to Pluto and the like....not doing anything about the RAMPANT rumors....saying things like "we all agreed" which make it sound as though the company crafted the stance (my wife is a PR veteran and I know exactly how this would go down) really sticks in my craw.

I'm telling you the vibes coming out make me even go back to the Collins situation. It might be worth it's own thread just to revisit that embarrasment in light of the past few Phil situations.

btw...if you know Amy....I know plenty of you guys here know her...she is welcome to hover in my general vicinity when I'm talking anytime she wishes.