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Browns insider: Defense makes pointed progress
by Mary Kay Cabot
Friday October 24, 2008, 11:31 PM
Browns coordinator Mel Tucker's defense is excelling in the statistic that counts most and the one that helps you get there: points allowed and takeaways.
Through six games, Tucker's defense is allowing 17.6 points per game, seventh in the NFL. In takeaways, the Browns are tied for fourth with 12 -- nine interceptions and three fumble recoveries.
In the past three games, the Browns have held opponents to 12, 14 and 14 points, respectively, for an average of just over 13 per game. They also held the Steelers to 10 points in a 10-6 loss Sept. 14, meaning four games of surrendering 14 points or less.
Granted, the Browns are still struggling to stop the run, yielding 146.3 yards per game for 26th in the league, but for the most part it hasn't hurt the point totals. Last week in Washington, the Browns gave up 193 yards rushing, including 175 to Clinton Portis, but held the Redskins to 14 points and produced a big takeaway when cornerback Eric Wright forced a fumble recovered by safety Brodney Pool that gave the Browns a chance to win.
"Our goal is to try to keep the points down," Tucker said. "The biggest stat is points allowed. To try to make teams go the long, hard way and be hard to score on, that's the key to it and that's what we're working toward."
Tucker also stresses takeaways every day in practice, where defensive players fight for loose balls and picks. It led to them picking off quarterback Eli Manning three times in the victory over the New York Giants on Oct. 13 at Cleveland Browns Stadium.
"We know that if we can be plus in the turnover margin that'll help us win games," he said. "That's a point of emphasis every day and every week. We make a big deal about it and the guys have been doing a good job in practice, and it has shown up in the game for us."
He complimented Wright, who sealed the victory over New York with his 94-yard interception return for a touchdown, and then forced Portis to fumble last Sunday.
"[The fumble] was a big play for us at that time," Tucker said. "It was an opportunity where he showed awareness. He is still playing hard and trying to make something happen. It was a textbook strip and we were able to come up with the ball."
He said Wright's becoming a complete player.
"He's worked really hard on his technique and fundamentals and his tackling has improved," Tucker said."His eye control and man coverage has improved, his zone coverage is sound and solid. He's done a great job, he is maturing in front of our eyes and it's good to see. I'm really excited about Eric going forward."
Tucker knows the Jaguars, 14th in rushing offense, will try to cram the ball down the Browns' throats with their two backs, Fred Taylor and Maurice Jones-Drew. "People that we've played lately are committed to running the football and Jacksonville is no different," said Tucker.
On Rogers: Tucker praised nose tackle Shaun Rogers.
"He's a force in the run game, and in the pass game he's very disruptive," Tucker said. "He plays hard, he's very noticeable on tape and guys feed off of him. He does a great job for us in our locker room, and in the meetings he's very knowledgeable about the game. He's a very smart football player and he's made a huge impact for us."
Cousin's homecoming: Defensive back Terry Cousin returns to Jacksonville, Fla., on Sunday, where he spent three seasons before signing with the Browns as a free agent in the off-season.
"It'll be fun, going against guys you've played with," he said. "I have a lot of people there that I'm still friends with. Anytime you've been with an organization for three years, you have a lot of people rooting for you."
With Mike Adams questionable for the game with a pulled hamstring, Cousin will probably start at nickel back again.
Williams determined: Defensive end Corey Williams is determined to keep playing despite a shoulder injury that might require surgery after the season. He's questionable and was limited Friday.
"I'm just trying to get back on the field," said Williams, who aggravated it in Washington. "I came this far with my teammates, why sit out now? I want to do everything I can to help this team win."
In other injury news, linebacker Shantee Orr (foot) and offensive lineman Ryan Tucker (knee) are doubtful, and tight end Steve Heiden (pectoral muscle) is probable.
Northcutt unfazed: Jaguars receiver Dennis Northcutt, who was on the Browns from 2000 to 2006, says playing his former team is nothing special.
"I hear a lot of guys that can't wait to play their ex-team -- obviously I have some ties there -- but to me, it's really just another game," he said Wednesday on a conference call. "There's not even much into it for me. It's really about just playing another game and trying to get a W."
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Don't blame defense for Browns record
Saturday, October 25, 2008
By STEVE DOERSCHUK
BEREA Life is a beach somewhere — take Jacksonville — but there are plenty of numbers kicking sand in the Browns' faces these days.
Start with the record they take on their Florida road trip, 2-4. Then grit your teeth.
The Browns rank No. 30 in points scored, No. 30 in yards gained, No. 30 in yards gained on first downs, No. 26 in red-zone offense.
There's the mess with No. 80, Kellen Winslow Jr. His quarterback, Derek Anderson, is No. 32 in passer rating.
Throw in a daunting challenge — needing an 8-2 to match last year's 10-6 record — and this is a team squinting to see the light.
Here's one ray: The Browns rank seventh in the league in scoring defense.
They are allowing 17.6 points a game. That's nearly a touchdown's worth of savings over last year.
"We try to make teams go the long hard way and be hard to score on. That is the key," Defensive Coordinator Mel Tucker said.
Tucker's unit has shut out opponents in the last five first quarters. The offense hasn't capitalized, with just two field goals to show in six first quarters.
"Our defense is playing real good football," wide receiver Braylon Edwards said. "When the defense holds a team to 10 points (Steelers) and 14 points (Redskins), the offense has to come up with enough points to win."
Edwards might as well have thrown in the 28-10 loss at Baltimore, in which interceptions gift-wrapped 14 Ravens points.
"The defense is doing their job," Edwards said. "We're not holding up our end of the bargain."
Tucker will earn his money this week with defensive end Corey Williams questionable with a shoulder injury that could lead to surgery and end Shaun Smith out with a broken hand.
The heat is on reserve linemen Louis Leonard, Santonio Thomas and Ahtyba Rubin. Coming into 2008, Leonard and Louis had a combined 10 NFL appearances between them. Rubin is a rookie sixth-round draft pick.
"We try to get it done with the guys that we have," Tucker said. "When we play good technique, set solid edges, don't give the runner seams inside and play physical, we do a decent job in the run."
TUCKER'S ASSESSMENT
Before Friday's practice, Tucker took a break to update his view of a few key men:
• Struggling 33-year-old nickel back Terry Cousin: "The slot is one of the tougher positions to play defensively. Terry battles. He has some savvy and experience, and he is going to win his fair share of battles."
• Rookie outside linebacker Alex Hall: "He doesn't seem to be overwhelmed. He gets better pretty much every day understanding the game and the game plan, the competition. He just takes it in stride. We are just excited about him."
• Veteran nose tackle Shaun Rogers: "He is a force in the run game. He is very disruptive in the pass game. He plays hard, he is very noticeable on tape, and guys feed off of him. He does a great job for us in our locker room."
• Cornerback Eric Wright: "He has big-play potential. We saw that in college, and the minute he stepped foot here, he did that. He has really worked hard on his fundamentals and technique and is becoming a complete player. His tackling has improved, his eye control, his man coverage ... his zone coverage is sound. He is maturing in front of our eyes."
INJURY REPORT
• Look for offensive lineman Ryan Tucker to miss his sixth game of the season, this time with a knee problem. He was listed as doubtful Friday, meaning Kevin Shaffer again will start at right tackle, where Tucker played against the Giants.
• Linebacker depth is an issue, with Shantee Orr (foot) doubtful. Safety Mike Adams (hamstring) is questionable. Tight end Steve Heiden (pectoral) is probable and almost surely will replace Winslow as a starter.
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Here goes a very unpopular stance.......
Just like numerous years before, our defense is smoke-and-mirrors. We're going bend-but-don't-break, but we're doing it out of the 3-4  We're missing HALF of our four-man defensive front rotation, and Corey Williams is playing with one shoulder. That's nearly 3/4 of our defensive front out. Our corners are playing off and making teams walk the ball down the field. We're giving up a ton of yards on the ground because we don't have our starting front four or any linebackers worth a flip.
These articles want to make our defense look good. It isn't. For the players we're marching out there, there's improvement, but to point to points given up and say we're a solid defense is nothing more than wishful thinking.
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Granted, the Browns are still struggling to stop the run, yielding 146.3 yards per game for 26th in the league, but for the most part it hasn't hurt the point totals.
Case in point. Nice way to gloss over how we've struggled to get our defense off the field, or how that hurts us in the field-position battle. But hey, that's ok! We can fall back on two stats to support the arguement. 
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Last week in Washington, the Browns gave up 193 yards rushing, including 175 to Clinton Portis, but held the Redskins to 14 points and produced a big takeaway when cornerback Eric Wright forced a fumble recovered by safety Brodney Pool that gave the Browns a chance to win.
We did nothing but get LUCKY because Portis was getting greedy.
This entire premise is a load. While I agree our corners are slowly getting better, we still lack anything close to a pass rush, and with more than HALF of our defensive front out or seriously injured, we're not going to stop the rush.
Watch what the Jags to do us on Sunday  No, they won't put 193 rushing yards on us like the 'Skins did, but they won't have to. They'll do what every smart team should do, which is to play it safe until we prove we can move the ball, they'll walk the ball down the field and play field-position. We can stay in the game if we don't allow them to punch it in every time they get inside the 30, which will happen often. So, when the day is done, we might not give up a ton of points, but our defense will still have been shoved around.
Unlike in years past where we just had sorry players starting, this year we're missing more than half of our front line. That simply can't be overcome, and it's showing.
Am I making an excuse for a poor defense? Absolutely. But what I'm not doing is spinning this to make the defense look better than it is.
The dirty secret that few want to ever speak of involves the fact that we can't stop anyone when they have a bunch of field to play with. We only start looking ok when they get down to where the field is compressed, thus making it harder to move the ball.
Savage started this out two years ago by spending all his chips on the offensive line. It worked. This year, he tried to do it for the defensive line. It hasn't worked because of injuries. Next year, he'll have to work over the linebackers, and hope the front line isn't as unlucky as this year. I can't wait.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Boy, re-tooling an entire pro football team requires a heckuvalotta patience, eh?
lb's on shopping list.... I like it.
Then, it should be a just matter of adding depth... I hope.
"too many notes, not enough music-"
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Your argument is not unpopular at all. I think everyone would agree that there is a mix of smoke and mirrors with this defense - and the articles make that point, too. We have been keeping keeping the points down, but it has not been pretty (hence, the talk about the rushing defense). I don't know who would disagree that LB is at the top of the shopping list I was really surprised to see that we actually won the time of possession match up last week (31 mins to 29 mins). The defense was doing something to get off the field quickly enough. And overall, TOP is close to even for the season (in spite of the Dallas and Baltimore games). Quote:
They'll do what every smart team should do, which is to play it safe until we prove we can move the ball, they'll walk the ball down the field and play field-position.
Interesting argument - because our offense has been so poor, our defense has performed well in the most important statistic of all: points allowed. As teams realize they need to score only 17 points to win, they play conservatively to reach that total. And the first quarter doesn't mean much since the opponents know they will grind out a win in the end...
I don't know if I can buy that argument completely. I think the defense is doing some things right (and that opponents are not sand-bagging it). Maybe the team will not be able to keep it up, but after a horrid game against Dallas, the defense has not had to hang its head at all this season (note- I am not saying the defense could hold its head high...)
As for "luck" - well, we all know that luck is just the meeting of preparation and opportunity. Are you saying that the defense is doing a better job of preparing for the games? 
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Or, if the damn offense could sustain some damn drives and put up some damn points they wouldn't be giving up that many yards. The D isn't allowing teams to just move down the field on them until they've been out there three quarters with no help from the offense. Say what you will, complain about the LBs, the thin line or the young DB, the D is playing well. It's the O that's keeping them on the field and causing them to give up yards over the course of the game.
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/hfMNC7T.jpg) "I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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Cal, the TOP would suggest otherwise. That line of thinking is valid if they truly are spending far more time on the field than the offense.
Here's one you and most everyone wouldn't believe if it weren't true: Total offensive plays:
Browns: 349
Opponents: 348
It's also worth noting that we gave up at least 75 yards rushing to the Redskins in the 1st half. That has absolutely nothing to do with fatigue.
Nobody is making a case that our offense is holding up their end of the bargain. But this defense, in essence, is no different than what we've seen in years past:
Teams don't have to throw on us. Why? Because they don't have to gamble by passing when they don't have to play catch-up, and when you can run on us the way most everyone can, there's no need to deviate from that.
The very foundation of the 3-4 is that a defense can disguise where the pressure is coming from. To that end, we've managed to eek out a whopping 8 sacks on the year. 
It can be spun any way a person wants it, but when a defense is on it's way to accumulating less than 20 sacks in a season, (8 is 3rd worst in the league) that's beyond pathetic.
When a defense gives up 4.8 yards per carry, 5th worst in the league, that's horrid.
So, again, it's smoke and mirrors. We're not a very good defense. The media played this same "we stop them when it counts" card various times in the past when our defense sucked.
Last year, when we had an offense, teams couldn't bleed us to death the way they can this year. The end result? There were only 11 teams that gave up more points than we did. And guess what? That TOP stat I pointed to earlier? When comparing last year's TOP to this year's TOP, we are exactly 3 SECONDS worse than last year. That's it.
I could go on and on here. Many of the teams we've played are in the bottom third of the league in scoring. The Bungles, Rats, and 'Skins are 2nd, 7th, and 9th worst. There's more, but I think the point is made.
The offense isn't at fault nearly as much as one might believe for how poor our defense is playing. 8th in attempts per game, 5th in yards per attempt. That's on the defense. Not the offense. Hell, I could paint the picture that the offense isn't getting on the field enough because the defense can't generate 3-and-outs  I'm not making that arguement because it doesn't excuse the offensive problems.
When it's all said and done, in order to be a solid defense, you either have to be able to stop the run, or you have to be able to get pressure on the QB. We can't do either, and no amount of spin or wishful thinking will fix that. Granted, I KNOW we'd be better if we had our four-man defensive front rotation actually playing, but that doesn't excuse how we ARE playing.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Your TOP stat is skewed because it's averaged over all the games. Now let us look at the reality:
Dallas (L) TOP 22:31 Points scored 10 allowed 28 total yards 205
Steelers (L) TOP 30:17 Points scored 6 allowed 10 total yards 208
Baltimore (L) TOP 22:12 Points scored 10 allowed 28 total yards 169
Cincy (W) TOP 34:02 Points scored 20 allowed 12 total yards 261
Giants (W) TOP 32:25 W Points scored 35 allowed 14 total yards 454
Skins (L) TOP 31:08 L Points scored 11 allowed 14 total yards 236
In all four losses we never gained more than 240 yards. In the two losses against Pit & the skins, where the TOP was even, we scored a combined total of 17 points and 405 yards. In the two losses against Dallas and the Rats, where we gave up four TDs, we kept the ball a mere 22 minutes in both games. In the games against Pit & the Skins, one more TD wins those games, we are 4-2 and we are not having this conversation.
Say what you will about smoke and mirrors, run yards allowed or anything else you wish to mention, the D has done their job and the O has not. You can hypothesize all you want, but that's the reality. At the end of the day the only thing that matters is the W and the O has cost us at least two, possibly three, and the D has kept us in the games we should have won. That is not smoke and mirrors. That is solid play.
I agree we need LBs, I agree our line is thin, I agree we give up too many rush yards, but many of those yards are given up late in the games when the D has been out there a while and oposing RBs start to bite off bigger chunks. All in all, aside from the first half of the first game, the defense has played well enough for us to win our games, the O has not. Here is your smoke and mirrors: People believe we have an offense, when in reality, they've only shown up once.
"I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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Quote:
Teams don't have to throw on us. Why? Because they don't have to gamble by passing when they don't have to play catch-up, and when you can run on us the way most everyone can, there's no need to deviate from that.
The very foundation of the 3-4 is that a defense can disguise where the pressure is coming from. To that end, we've managed to eek out a whopping 8 sacks on the year.
Aren't those two statements sort of contradictory? I mean if teams don't have to throw because they are never playing catch up, then how exactly are we supposed to disguise our pass blitze packages? It's hard to do that when you don't feel comfortable that the other team is going to throw....
Reference the Giants game... the one game where our offense showed up this year... yea, the Giants ran the ball but we had a sack and about half a dozen QB hits and three intereceptions becuase we were able to play the pass...
Is this defense dominant? No, it's not.... but it is miles ahead of the offense in 2 or 3 categories...
1. It CAN overcome some injuries and still continue to function without excuses.
2. It's consistent, it shows up just about the same week in and week out which leads me to believe that it is playing at or slightly above it's talent level while the offense and all of its pro-bowl talent is near the bottom of every statistical category INCLUDING SCORING.
3. In 5 of our 6 games this year our defense could walk off the field thinking, "we did enough to win this game." Our offense can say that exactly once.
yebat' Putin
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Quote:
Aren't those two statements sort of contradictory?
If they were written within the same paragraph, then yes, they would be. However, they aren't.
One speaks of how an offense can attack our defense in terms of overall gameplanning. The other simply speaks to our lack of pressure, when the very reason teams go with the 3-4 is to disrupt blocking schemes and disguise where pressure is coming from.
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3. In 5 of our 6 games this year our defense could walk off the field thinking, "we did enough to win this game." Our offense can say that exactly once.
They can only do that if it's ok to buy into the falacy that points scored defines our defense. I maintain it doesn't.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Quote:
Quote:
3. In 5 of our 6 games this year our defense could walk off the field thinking, "we did enough to win this game." Our offense can say that exactly once.
They can only do that if it's ok to buy into the falacy that points scored defines our defense. I maintain it doesn't.
I think the truth lies somewhere in the middle. There have been stretches where the run D has done a good job. They quit in the Dallas game and they quit in the Balt game when we fell behind big. The Cowboys and Ravens weren't really gashing us until the D gave up. Really, the Giants and the 'Skins are the only two teams who had their way with us the entire games in terms of the run. In the Giants game, it seemed like we were conceding the run so as to not give up the big plass play.
I think the D is defnitely slightly improved over last year if for nothing else I've seen some players grow so far ... Pool, McD, and Wright.
I do believe it's nothing to make a big deal out of ... and in that I agree with Toad. At the same time, it's better than last year. How much is debatable.
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I like the fact that you're making a point and defending it with reasoning. Now the fact that you're wrong makes it all the more entertaining!
The one thing that you've left out of your logic pie recipe: Turnovers
We're #5 in the league with 9 INTs and we have 3 recovered fumbles. 12 takeaways in 6 games? That's pretty good. Especially when considered historically for the Browns.
We're trending toward 32 takeaways.
For reference:
2007: 27
2006: 27
2005: 23
2004: 28
2003: 22
2002: 29
2001: 41! btw..we had 33 INTs and 33 Forced Fumbles with only 8 recoveries.
We're taking the ball away at a great clip we're + in the Take Away / Give Away ratio. And we're 2-4. That's despicable.
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Quote:
lb's on shopping list.... I like it.
yup, they should be next on the list.....just so long as OL doesn't drop off the list. I don't think we're finished there yet.
I can't help but think that our D has been somewhat lucky so far. The Skins can run, but they can't throw well yet. The rats are not known for their offense and many times the Giants don't do a whole lot offensively. Cincy is a mere shadow of a football team.
I wanna see what happens when we play some potent offenses. We saw what Dallas did to us.
...and I wouldn't mind if we just left Cousins there in Jacksonville after the game. He can stay and hang out with his old buddies for the rest of the season.
![[Linked Image from members.cox.net]](http://members.cox.net/flyinc5/smallsigpics/frcburnout.gif) AL 29 76 14 R_K
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Quote:
They can only do that if it's ok to buy into the falacy that points scored defines our defense. I maintain it doesn't.
In the end, points are all that we have to measure the defense - just as it is what we use to measure the offense.
Yes - total number of plays is a surprise to see. Does this mean that opposing offenses are performing as ineptly as our offense??? If you want to define the defense based on rushing yards, I suppose that is okay - the rushing defense was supposed to be hugely improved. But, you provide a pretty good explanation for why it is falling short of expectations.
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We only start looking ok when they get down to where the field is compressed, thus making it harder to move the ball.
Which is why I'm an advocate of the "reverse field position strategy". That is, to allow the opponent to "win" the field position battle, set it up if necessary (shank punts would do it very well), so our defense gets the short field to defend. 
#gmstrong
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Neither article has a link. Please read the rules of the pound. The rules apply to everyone. Ive posted threads that were deleted in less then 5 minutes while I was going back to get the link to add it to the article. Only to have someone else post it a few minutes later.
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Quote:
I'm an advocate of the "reverse field position strategy". That is, to allow the opponent to "win" the field position battle, set it up if necessary (shank punts would do it very well), so our defense gets the short field to defend.
Yup, you've been hangin' out with legalizeweed too long.
you're now doobiea
AL 29 76 14 R_K
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"You're only as young as the last time you changed your mind." -Timothy Leary
#gmstrong
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LSDdubia
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Neither article has a link. Please read the rules of the pound. The rules apply to everyone. Ive posted threads that were deleted in less then 5 minutes while I was going back to get the link to add it to the article. Only to have someone else post it a few minutes later.
All copy and pasted articles do not require a link per se.
The rule states: "A link is the preferred method, but including the author and the source where the piece was retrieved from is sufficient in most cases."
If you notice, a lot of copy and pasted posts are done that way.
However, you are right in that those two stories do not inlcude a source but they do include the author. Which maybe could be considered the source since us DawgTalkers know, as common knowledge, that Mary Kay Cabot writes for the Cleveland Plain Dealer and Steve Doerschuk writes for the Canton Repository.
But it should have include the source as well as the author as per the rules. Good call.
I hope that helps.
#gmstrong
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All Pro
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Has anybody pointed out that the Steelers game was played in a hurricane (which also helps the defense)?
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Quote:
Quote:
We only start looking ok when they get down to where the field is compressed, thus making it harder to move the ball.
Which is why I'm an advocate of the "reverse field position strategy". That is, to allow the opponent to "win" the field position battle, set it up if necessary (shank punts would do it very well), so our defense gets the short field to defend.
  
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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NRT....M(e) 
So.........Here we are. Based on the discussions we were having, doesn't at least some of what I was saying sink in?
The arguement that our offense isn't helping the defense certainly didn't fly in the game against the Jags, did it?
Who knows who screwed up when Anderson and Vickers ran into each other. I'm actually inclined to say Anderson, but I don't know. Regardless, our offense was out of sync and we went 3-out. So we punt. The Jags go on a 10 or 12 play drive. Nobody can say the defense wore out because the offense didn't keep them off the field.  In fact, the OPPOSITE can be made.
We then go on a 9-play drive and score a TD. So the Jags go on a 13-play drive and score a TD. Again, the offense did it's part. The defense didn't.
There's no need to go over the entire game. My point is made.
Today, we saw that our defense struggled getting off the field, and very-nearly coughed up the win to the Jags on a ball that was bouncing on Jones's hands at the end of the game. Case in point, the time of possession: 35:05 for the Jags, 24:55 for us.
Blecht.
The one thing we did well today was limit their running game, though it must be stated that their O-line has been playing like crap all year. To that end, the Jags put up numbers far better than their yearly averages.
Now listen, I know we're playing without HALF of our defensive front four rotation, and Williams is nearly playing with one arm. I also know that we can't muster up much of a pass rush at all this year. Hell, I've stated both over and over again. We looked better today against a truly inferior offensive line, but I'm going to make the point again which I've been arguing:
The offense isn't the reason our defense isn't very good. Our defense, just like our offense, must carry it's OWN cross. Anderson played a solid game, Lewis had solid numbers on the ground, and we put up 23 points. Yet it was the defense that couldn't get itself off the field. So feel-good stories from media don't wash, and neither would a half-hearted attempt to paint the picture that the offense, and primarily Anderson, are the reason we're losing (not that I'm suggesting anyone inperticular would do such a thing ).
The game was won today by the offense and the special teams.
Having gone there, we have excuses on defense, as we're missing a number of starters due to injury. It'll be up to Savage to fix this in the off-season. Until we do, we're going to be a .500 team because this defense just isn't very good.
Stop blaming the offense for a porous defense. Each unit carries their own cross.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Dude, you're point is so far from made it is actually the opposite of made. Call it 180 degrees from made, oh heck, lets just call it proven wrong.
I don't know what game you were watching but this was a perfect example of the O finally coming through to give the D enough help to win the game. Which was my point. The D has been playing well enough all year to win, the O just hasn't been helping out. Today they did. Period.
The D kept the scoring respectable all game, held them to 14 through three quarters, even though they had to play 35 minutes because our offense was striking so quickly (finally), not running sustained drives at all. The first scoring drive was around 4 1/2 minutes and the second was around 3, the third was like a minute and a half. As it worked out, these scores were exactly what was needed, keeping the D fired up and somewhat fresh, even though the drives where relatively short.
The D played well pretty much the entire game, and except for allowing a couple big plays, basically stopped them when they needed stopped, (especially when it got crucial near the end). They got pressure on the QB, got three sacks, and actually stuffed their vaunted running tandem. Granted Gerard escaped a couple times, (one was a fluke of a run skewing the rushing stats,) they scored eventually on that drive but the O went right back to work and made it 14-7.
The blocked kick was a huge statement after stopping them, and the stuff on 4 & short was a beauty. Rogers was the beast. The O finally put up the points we needed to get the win and the D kept us in it, especially toward the end, making key stops on all subsequent drives after they tied it at 17.
It was a great win to watch, on the road, against a good team. The D kicked butt and the O did their job, finally. It was a very good win. One we wouldn't have gotten without a very good performance by the D, and enough points from the O to finally outscore an opponent.
"I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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Quote:
The D kept the scoring respectable all game, held them to 14 through three quarters, even though they had to play 35 minutes because our offense was striking so quickly (finally), not running sustained drives at all.
So they were on the field 35 minutes during that time because the offense was scoring too quickly.
Got it
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As it worked out, these scores were exactly what was needed, keeping the D fired up and somewhat fresh, even though the drives where relatively short.
So in this case, they were on the field a long time, but it doesn't matter because we actually scored.
Ok...got it
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The blocked kick was a huge statement after stopping them, and the stuff on 4 & short was a beauty.
The stuff was a beauty, but the blocked kick was SPECIAL TEAMS, not defense, just as the FUMBLE ON THE KICKOFF was special teams, not defense.
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They got pressure on the QB, got three sacks, and actually stuffed their vaunted running tandem.
Against an offensive line that is starting a street free agent at guard, and that vaunted tandem that's averaged a pedestrian 3.8 yards per carry between Drew and Taylor.
Hey, I applauded their work, but it came against a decidedly inferior offensive line. And when they did get back there, Gerrard ran wild. Furthermore, despite that pressure, he shredded the defense to the tune of 283 yards and 2 TD's. That's not very good.
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One we wouldn't have gotten without a very good performance by the D, and enough points from the O to finally outscore an opponent.
Smoke and mirrors again, smoke and mirrors.
Case in point: The Jaguars lost despite converting 11 of 20 times on third down. They also were 2-for-3 on fourth down. ... (courtesy of ESPN)
When we had the chance to stop the Redskins down the stretch, we didn't. When we should have stopped the Jags, it took TWO special teams standout plays in the fumble and the blocked field goal, and yet we STILL were an inch away from the loss when that ball bounced off of Jones's hands.
We're living on the edge with these teams we're playing. In fact, we're getting lucky. One of my points was that teams didn't have to throw on us because they weren't coming from behind. Well, today they DID have to come from behind, and when they had to, they DID throw on us. Gerrard had his biggest game of the year against us, throwing for 286 yards, 2 TD's and 0 INT's, with another 60 yards rushing. That's not good. We simply can't continue this bend-but-don't break thing, when that's not REALLY what we're trying to do. It's just working out that way *L*
My big point was that some people (maybe it was you, Cal, maybe it wasn't) were blaming the offense for the defenses inability to stop offenses, primarily because our offense was supposedly not staying on the field long enough. Well, today they did their job. It was the defense that couldn't get itself off the field, yet again.
I think all this started with the rather defensive article from Cabott stating that our defense was improving by point to the points-allowed stat as proof. That's horsefeathers, hehe. A good play here and there, a blocked field goal or a fumble on special teams has been the difference. Without breaks going our way, our defense gets absolutely shredded.
Again, there are excuses for this unit. That doesn't mean they are playing well. I heard this same arguement for years. It didn't fly then and it doesn't fly now.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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I know you staked a flag in the ground but.......
Come on!
The D outplayed the O by a longshot today.
We played one of the best running teams in the NFL today. And guess what? The only runner that really hurt us was their QB.
You're allowed to say you're wrong. It might be cleansing for you.
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You're allowed to say you're wrong.
When I am, you'll be the first to know 
As for their being one of the best running teams in the NFL today, prior to this game, they ranked 14th in rushing, and they had to scratch Naeole, their starting guard from last year. Not to mention the "vaunted duo" of Taylor and Maurice-Drew were averaging a very pedestrian 3.8 yards per carry coming into the game.
Glad you admitted Gerrard hurt us. You saved me from being forced to do it
Hey, we got some pressure against a milkdud offensive line. We couldn't contain the QB but at least we were in there. We allowed them to walk down the field and have numerous shots at beating us. That's not how you win football games, and it's not the kind of defense that's going to get us to the playoffs.
Here's something for you to read:
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Sportsline.com
JACKSONVILLE, Fla. -- The ball bounced out of Matt Jones' hands twice, ricocheted off safety Nick Sorensen's helmet and landed out of bounds.
The last big play of the game went Cleveland's way. Most of the other ones did, too.
Jamal Lewis ran for 81 yards and a touchdown, Derek Anderson completed several long passes, defensive tackle Shaun Rogers dominated all over the field and the Browns beat the Jacksonville Jaguars 23-17 Sunday.
"If my guys come to play the way they came to play today, we are going to be in it," Cleveland coach Romeo Crennel said. "We're going to be in it and have a chance."
The Browns (3-4) won for the second time in three games -- both without Kellen Winslow -- and gained ground on AFC North leader Pittsburgh.
Winslow's one-game suspension for criticizing the team's handling of his staph infection was rescinded, but the Browns did just fine without their outspoken Pro Bowl tight end.
Anderson was 14-of-27 for 264 yards and a touchdown. He did most of his damage in the first half, leading the Browns to 17 points in their first four possessions. He had a 5-yard TD toss to Donte' Stallworth; a 51-yard completion to Winslow's replacement, Steve Heiden, on fourth down; and a 43-yarder to Braylon Edwards that set up a short field goal.
Anderson also had a 53-yard strike to Syndric Steptoe in the fourth that may have topped them all. It set up Phil Dawson's second field goal, which put the Browns ahead for good, 20-17, with 4:35 remaining.
Jaguars rookie Brian Witherspoon fumbled the ensuing kickoff, and Dawson added a 42-yarder.
Jacksonville (3-4) had two more chances to take the lead and got to the Cleveland 26-yard line with 16 seconds remaining. But Jones bobbled a perfectly thrown jump ball in the end zone that could have won the game.
"He threw a great ball. I just never really got a clean grip on it," said Jones, who finished with eight receptions for 117 yards after appealing a three-game suspension for violating the league's substance-abuse policy. "You don't ever want it to come down to a play like that, but when it does, you want to be the one who makes the play."
The Jaguars fell to 2-4 following bye weeks under coach Jack Del Rio. They had hoped to sweep a three-game stretch against Cleveland, Cincinnati and Detroit to get back in the AFC playoff picture. Now, though, they're even behind the Browns.
All of Jacksonville's games have been decided by seven points or less, and the club dropped to 1-3 at home. Del Rio ripped his players in the locker room after the game, disappointed they've had so many close losses after finishing 11-5 last season and making the playoffs.
"He said we're a good team and we need to stop dillydallying and playing around and put these teams away," defensive end Reggie Hayward said. "He wasn't belligerent. He was upset we lost. Losing hurts and it sucks, and he just explained that in his message. He said what everyone was feeling."
Jacksonville's problems started in pregame warmups when guard Chris Naeole, expected to play for the first time since injuring his quadriceps last season, injured his right hand and was pulled from the starting lineup.
Without him, the Jaguars struggled to contain Rogers.
Rogers finished with nine tackles, a sack and a blocked a field goal. He kept running backs Fred Taylor and Maurice Jones-Drew from getting anything up the middle -- they finished with a combined 53 yards on the ground -- and pressured David Garrard all afternoon.
Garrard finished 25-of-42 passing for 283 yards and two touchdowns. He led the team with 59 yards rushing, but was sacked three times.
"That dude's an animal," Garrard said of Rogers. "We had a few plays designed to try to use his strength against him and he just put more strength into it and made some huge plays on third-and-shorts and even on fourth-and-short. He's the biggest guy on the field and might be the biggest guy in the whole league.
"He has a motor, and when it's geared up and turned on and full speed, I don't know very many people that can block him. When he wanted to force his will, you could see what he could do."
Rogers' knocked Garrard to the ground several times, including one that drew a roughing-the-quarterback penalty, but his best play came on special teams. He sliced between two linemen and blocked Josh Scobee's 38-yard attempt with his left hand early in the fourth.
His block essentially forced Jacksonville to need a touchdown in the closing seconds instead of a game-tying field goal.
"I'm just trying to fit in," Rogers said. "Whatever they ask me to do I'll try to do to the best of my ability and help. I'm just flattered to be the guy they want in the game at crucial times."
Notes
The Browns have won three in a row in Jacksonville, but trail the all-time series 3-8.
Garrard has thrown 150 passes without an interception.
The Jaguars lost despite converting 11 of 20 times on third down. They also were 2-for-3 on fourth down.
Cleveland has gone three straight games without a turnover.
A blocked field-goal, a forced-fumble by the special teams, and a ball that Jones should have caught, but didn't.........The bottom line is that this defense isn't making the stops when it counts. We got lucky this week. Until we start stopping people when it counts (or at all throughout the game) we're not a playoff team.
Our yards numbers looked good until they were forced to open up their offense. Gerrard went to town on us, which is something I covered.
You can't win Hel, not yet Want me to admit I'm wrong? I will when the defense actually shuts down a team.........
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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The problem I have with the D is expressed by Toad..
Granted we do get turnovers..but as he said we're not stopping teams from chewing up yardage on us..we did way better on the Jags except when DG scrambled on us and Corey Willaims and co allowed him to have one huge gain.
What I've been complaining about is the ability of our opponents to run to right side..and they seal off Wimbley to the inside and allow a guard to take DQ downfield..
The next factor is when Rodgers is out, then teams start to attack the middle and DAVIS's side..which is easy..he doesn't offer much resistance.
We need one stud Strongside backer who actually has ability to come up and stuff a back.
We're bend but don't break type..becaue we don't have all the parts.
Tucker's scheme against the Jags was less aggressive than the previous two games.
He also was calling for tighter coverage on a 6' 6 reciever who really wasn't faster than the likes of the other recievers we've faced in prior games..
We don't get much pressure consistantly on pass plays , and having to use corner blitzes doesn't work because it isn't disguised that well.
The stats look nice on paper but that ole problem of stuffing the run EARLY is hurting us..
How many three and outs does this D actually force?
I've said this for years and debated quite a few..the mark of an aggressive dominating defense is too get itself off the field quickly..via, sack/turnover/stoppage.
Last edited by Attack Dawg; 10/27/08 11:01 AM.
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You make good points toad. To kinda jump off that...the case in point to your argument is the Ravens. Their offense has been anemic for years, however they've managed to have a great D with an offense that would have a hard time beating a D2 team.
I dont know that one unit can play off another. However the defense appears to be doing just enough, and if just enough can get us some wins this year I'll take it.
It's up to savage to get some LBs in here and some DL depth. Then the defense takes that jump me thinks.
"I don't remember any of my catches. I remember the drops." - Kellen Winslow II
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The title of the article states the D has made progress, not that there is not work that still needs to be done.
We're 7th in the league in p/a per game, and 6th in total p/a.
Compared to last year where we were 21st in both categories, I'd say that's a significant improvement.
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I should have been more descript I suppose. I was just giving support to the point Toad was making. Which is valid in my estimation.
The defense HAS improved. However we're still giving up an insane amount of rushing yards. Until we can stop the run we will only be a middle of the pack defense at best. We desperately need LBs that can rush the passer. Wimbley has been a bust as a pass rushing LB thus far. Hall is an unknown. The rest are garbage as pass rushers.
We also need MLB's that can stop the run. Dqwell seems to be picking up his play but AD is still what he was 5 years ago. Someone who gets alot of tackles downfield, and someone who ALWAYS gets pushed backwards.
While our secondary has been great, the front 7 are what make any defense work. Until we get DL depth and some LBs this is the defense we'll see. Are they better? Yes in areas. They still cant stop the run for anything though. Because of this, they cant get off the field.
Hope this clarifies.
"I don't remember any of my catches. I remember the drops." - Kellen Winslow II
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Six steps to improve this defense.
1. Sean Jones returns at SS..DONE..
2. Michael Adams replaces the nickel back/slot cover cornerback.
3. Beau Bell starts playing at ILB and continues to gain reps as he matures in the position at some point..
4. Louis Leonard continues to play the DE. He is an improvement over Shaun Smith at the end spot.
5. The complete defense gain confidence and improvement as they gain more experience with the Tucker defense.
6. Phil gets another ILB to start immediately(see # 3), and gets a pass rusher.
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Quote:
So they were on the field 35 minutes during that time because the offense was scoring too quickly.
Got it
Apparently not, since smarmy is your response.
I take it you're saying the D can't get off the field. I'm assuming this because you've said it before and I figure your little thumbs-up must allude to that somehow without actually saying it.
You obviously choose to ignore the short amount of time we controlled the clock on offense during our scoring drives. I'm not saying it's a bad thing, just that we scored quickly. But the D sucks, so they must've allowed Jacksonville to run these long, sustained drives that always ended in scores in order to control the clock for so long... Oh wait, no, they didn't. Hm.
1st drive, 6 minutes, punt.
2nd drive, 6 minutes, 7 points.
3rd drive, 3 minutes, stop on 4th & 1
4th drive, 1 minute, punt
5th drive, 4.5 minutes, 7 points
6th dive, 7.75 minutes, forced to kick field goal - BLOCKED.
7th drive, 2.25 minutes, 3 points.
8th drive, 1 minute, three and out, punt
9th drive, 1:51, time expires. Browns win.
Jacksonville only scored a TD on one of their sustained drives. (over five minutes).
I'm really not sure what your point is at this point. The original point I made was that the D needed the O to score points to win games. That they were playing well enough to win if the O would only put up some points. In both the Pit & Skins games, they needed two TDs in each of those games to win it, and couldn't get it done, while the D kept them to 14 or under. In the Jacksonville game, the O managed to put up some points and we win the game. Funny how that works.
And regarding the blocked kick being special teams? It's amazing you would point that out since Rogers not only made the block, he made the recovery as well... But I know, I know... that has nothing to do with the D.
As I said before, we need help on the line, we need LBs, but this D, this year, has been playing well enough to keep us in it, it is the O that hasn't been holding up its end of the bargain. Say whatever you want, think whatever you want, be oblivious to all that you want. It doesn't change the facts.
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We got lucky this week. Until we start stopping people when it counts (or at all throughout the game) we're not a playoff team.
So it didn't count this week or two weeks ago? Face it, we're not a playoff team until we reach the playoffs, and neither is anyone else. See Dallas Coronation.
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I will when the defense actually shuts down a team.........
You mean like the Giants, or holding Pit to 10 points? You mean like that?
"I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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Quote:
Six steps to improve this defense.
1. Sean Jones returns at SS..DONE..
2. Michael Adams replaces the nickel back/slot cover cornerback.
3. Beau Bell starts playing at ILB and continues to gain reps as he matures in the position at some point..
4. Louis Leonard continues to play the DE. He is an improvement over Shaun Smith at the end spot.
5. The complete defense gain confidence and improvement as they gain more experience with the Tucker defense.
6. Phil gets another ILB to start immediately(see # 3), and gets a pass rusher.
Interesting about Leonard. I hadn't been watching him. I did notice Garrard was their leading rusher this week though.
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Legend
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we don't have a great defense, we have some personnel issues
but you have to give romeo, mel tucker, and the other coaches all the credit in the world for getting the most out of these guys. when we brought romeo on back in 2005, this is what i envisioned. him being able to get the most of out of guys, and when we were set on defense, we became elite.
we have a good defensive line with a great guy in the middle. our linebacking crew is not great, but they are young. and our secondary is quite good.
and i like what i am seeing out of alex hall, i want more.
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1st String
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This is a remarkable thread...  The 2008 Browns are giving up more rushing yards per play (4.7 yd/rush in 2008 to 4.5 yards in 2007) and more passing yards (7.2 yards in 2008 to 6.7 yards in 2007). 2008 is worse in allowing 3rd down conversions: 37/87 (43%) to 79/215 (37%) And, 4th down conversions: 6/10 (60%) to 11/25 (44%) But - and this is the point of the article - 2008 has far lower PPG!!! 17.6 PPG in 2008 23.9 PPG in 2007 I hear what you are saying - the defense spent a lot of time on the field giving up drives that chewed up the clock. The Jaguars do not qualify as a strong offensive team. That pass in the end zone could have been caught quite easily. As Dandy Don says: "If ifs and buts were candy and nuts we'd all have a Merry Christmas." You can't build an argument on "ifs" - the performance is what it is. Do you want to say that the Browns defense is not a powerhouse? Go right ahead - no argument here. Do want to say that the defense is "middling" - go right ahead, no argument here. Do you want to say that the defense is one of the worst in the league - well, that is debatable given that it is giving up 17 PPG. (And that appears to be how you are positioning the argument). In the end, though, what matters is the number of points given up. Can we expect them to continue to keep teams to under 17 PPG? Not really (the yardage given up does not support that). However, given the fact that the team has been able to achieve it consistently, it is quite possible that they will continue to do it. Man, all of this disdain for the Browns defense reminds me of Jon Lovitz's imitation of Michael Dukakis back in 1988. During a debate with Dana Carvey as Bush, Lovitz as Dukakis (who was clearly far more knowledgeable about the political issues - and possibly a better manager, given the awful 4 years we had with Bush-41) turns to the camera and says "I can't believe I'm losing to this guy." So, while this team has not looked good on paper, you can't deny that the defense has given the team more than a fighting chance to win most of the games.
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Legend
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the second half against dallas and the second half against baltimore didn't help our rushing yards per game average. that is for sure.
i like the way we are playing defense though, and considering we aren't scoring a ton on offense (def not like last yr) they have had to carry the team a little bit, actually more than a little bit.
they just look better this year.
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The original point I made was that the D needed the O to score points to win games.
Which nobody disagreed with.
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I'm really not sure what your point is at this point. The original point I made was that the D needed the O to score points to win games. That they were playing well enough to win if the O would only put up some points.
My point is that our defense is smoke and mirrors, with this most recent win being a perfect example. If Matt Jones were a good NFL receiver, the Browns just lost the game, having allowed the Jags to walk down the field and score with 10 seconds on the clock. In that case, we'd be sitting here talking about how the offense did it's part but the defense didn't.
That's why I've been using the term "smoke and mirrors." Because Matt Jones dropped a TD pass that hit him right in the hands, it's too easy for us....that is to say you.....to say we did enough to win the game on defense. So, by proxy, another of my points is to throw the BS flag up on those that have said it's the offenses fault that this team is losing. As I've repeated over and over, each side of the ball carries their own cross.
I've said my peace. Feel free to close with whatever you'd care to say. My closing states that using the "points allowed is really all that matters" angle is just a disguise to cover up the fact that our defense still isn't very good. In fact, we pretty much suck. While we have reasons for it, I won't allow that unit to be excused and the blame shuffled to the O. That side of the ball has their own cross to carry. This article paints the picture that we're doing it when it counts.
Sure, if that's the case, then Matt Jones should get one of our game-balls.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Because Matt Jones dropped a TD pass that hit him right in the hands, it's too easy for us....that is to say you.....to say we did enough to win the game on defense.
Since you've made your closing statement I expect no rebuttal to mine.
Perhaps, since we had two defenders on Jones, we defended, distracted and disrupted his ability to make that catch.
#gmstrong
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I have been watching all the linemen..Leonard is a better DE than Smith is..but I said last year to Eo several times that Smith is better at the nose..and he is..
Leonard isn't as quick but he seems more stout on the end..I saw him at the nose and he got shoved off easily..
Smith seems more comfortable in the middle where he can either shoot through or hold his ground..
But watch the rookie Rubin..he's gonna be if he gets reps..he doesn't get blown off the LOS..
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